Julia Ioffe reports from Moscow:
Crossing the underground transfer to the Paveletskaya stop on the circle line in the Moscow metro this morning, I found myself swallowed up by a bunch of singing, rowdy youths.
Decked out in red-and-white scarves, they were on their way to Luzhniki stadium for a soccer match where they would cheer for their team, Spartak — thus the red and white. (These, coincidentally, are also the colors of Nashi, the Hitlerjugend-ish Kremlin youth group.)
The kids were warming up in the metro, having warmed up, it seems, with a couple beers beforehand.
Holding their arms out in a V or clapping, the kids sang. And here’s what they sang:
Россия для русских
Москва для москвичей
Изгоним всех хачей
This is the translation:
Russia for Russians,
Moscow for Muscovites,
We’ll kick out all the hachi.
Hachi is the quite derogatory term for people from the Caucasus or Central Asia who have flooded into Moscow in search of economic opportunity, and it is the equivalent of “spic” or “wetback.” This is always a curious sentiment because these off-my-turf nativists often pine for the glory days of the Soviet Union, and don’t seem to mind that its glory depended on Russia bending the Caucasus and Central Asia under its scepter.
But I digress.
So this horde of racist shitclowns was yodeling this hateful shit all through the metro — and passers-by cheered. And laughed. And clapped their hands. And raised their arms in a V.
And the metro police, fully aware of the strict Russian laws against inciting extremism that have been so handily used to shut up the liberal opposition, quietly ignored them.
I decided to video tape it, but, sadly, they had moved on to a regular soccer cheer by this point.
The video ends, you’ll notice, with one of the goons giving me a good shove and telling me not to fucking tape them (pride, you know). At this point, his girlfriend tried to hurl her nails into action, and he very gallantly held her back.
Click here to watch the video.
La Russophobe 
It is scary to hear “Russia for Russians!” or “France for Frenchmen!” or “Germany for Germans!” or “Georgia for Georgians!”. This is nazism.
Luckily, in Russia, Germany and France such people are out of power. It becomes a horror when these people come to power, like they did in Georgia in the early 1990s, when 86% (eighty six percent!) of Georgians were seduced by these Nazi slogans:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?166069-EU-Report-Georgia-started-South-Ossetian-War/page35
Governments are not responsible for individuals’ actions. The Russian government has never had an ethno-nationalist “Russia for Russians” policy, by contrast the first Georgian President, Zviad Gamsakhurdia, proclaimed a policy of “Georgia for Georgians”.
http://www.ceiig.ch/Report.html
Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia
During the period of transition to post-Soviet sovereignty the country´s first President, Zviad Gamsakhurdia, then did a lot in terms of nationalism to alienate the two smaller political-territorial entities of Abkhazia and South Ossetia from the Georgian independence project, proclaiming ethno-centrist slogans such as “Georgia for Georgians”.
Voice of Treason it is indeed scary to continue to read your lying propaganda like “It is scary to hear “Russia for Russians!” or …… This is nazism.”
How wrong – ad nauseam – you are, but then what’s new!
Let us get a few thing right, or for that matter straight ” Russia for Russians!” is a long standing Putalin fascistrRuSSian slogan, and not as you lie Nazi – as the Nazis treated the Slavs as “untermensh” i.e. sub human (want to see what an untermensh looks like, glance in the mirror next time you pass one). Currently it is the official slogan of the ruSSia’s ‘Nashi’ thugs.
Furthermore your irresponsible (read lying) comment that “Luckily, in Russia, …… such people are out of power. It becomes a horror when these people come to power” is 100% wrong in the first sentence (i.e. Luckily, in Russia, …… such people are out of power) and 100% right in the last sentence (i.e. It becomes a horror when these people come to power).
How sad, so tragically sad that you cannot differentiate between right and wrong. It makes me wonder what a pair of buffoons your mummy and daddy must have been to raise an imbecile of your caliber. What’s that old world renowned saying ” like mother like son, or like father like son”.
Your comments in the third paragraph “Governments are not responsible for individuals’ actions. The Russian government has never had an ethno-nationalist “Russia for Russians” policy,.. ‘ is in it’s entirety just such utter lying and stupid propaganda that only a brain dead idiot would believe in them or have the gall to utter them..
Of course, all democratic governments are responsible for their individuals actions!!! That’s what jails are for, to catch and punish the wrong doers as a determent for their evil and unsanctioned action AND to deter others from doing likewise. Putalin’s fascist ruSSia does not adhere to this principle, just look at the number of Reporters or Journalists who have been murdered for telling/exposing the truth and how many of the murdering parasites have been caught – to be exact ‘zilch’ to date! Just what is you beloved PuTALIN, the great admirer of sTALIN trying to hide??
Similarly your irresponsible comment that “The Russian government has never had an ethno-nationalist “Russia for Russians” policy”
is just pitifully laughable, and you have the unbelievable temerity to give this reference “http://www.ceiig.ch/Report.html”, which only deals with the conflict in Georgia as too does your irrelevant “http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?166069-EU-Report-Georgia-started-South-Ossetian-War/page35”
You give absolutely nothing of substance to substantiate the rest of what you have concocted up, and as for the above reference that is just the views of the users of that blog. Totally irrelevant to the subject matter of this blog.
I deserve this RTR, (Russia’s Total Retard) wasting my precious time on your total irresponsibility . You certainly take the cake! But on the plus side at least I’ve shown you up for what you really are to the majority of LR’s users. And I don’t refer to jerks like Dimwit ‘D’!
Finally, imbecile this blog is about “Russia’s Rampaging Racism”, so how about sticking to the subject matter AND not as per your usual RTR fashion steering it to totally irrelevant subjects.
Bye, bye for now RuSSia’s Today Retard. I’m now going to catch up on what the intelligent LR blog users have added to this magic blog!
Oh, PS give my worst regards to Dimwit ‘D’ and he rest of your “crazies”. You all deserve it!
Bohdan, you are going to write a “War and World”-long posts soon. Nobody has time nor wish to read them.
Better go explain to some “negroes” why it’s legitimate for you to call them so:D
Call us whatever but we “negros” black non white , call us whatever is the mayority on this globe. We will conquer and rule for thusands of years soon. India +1500 milions combine with the other indian orgin nations as pakistan, And then we are +600 milion muslims that dont accept one slap to any side of the face, nepal, bangladesh, sri lanka we are larger than the chines.
Dont fyking forget you russians that are racists your language is made out of indian sanskrit.
You pitty people dont even have a language from beginning. Leningrad= grad in indian is city. tata= father , belgrade=white city.
learn your history, we are comming and black genes is stronger than your white !
Lafir, you’re an idiot.
I was trying to explain to this Ukrainian nationalist Bohdan why one must never call people “negroes”. He was arguing it’s ok to call other negroes.
Now you come and start telling me stupid things about Russia, Russian history, and Russian language.
So, if you don’t start reading posts you comment, better go stick your head back to the asshole you’ve taken it from.
http://www.c-rDOTorg/our-work/accord/georgia-abkhazia/profiles.php
Conciliation Resources (CR) is an international non-governmental organization registered in the UK as a charity.
Zviad Gamsakhurdia
The son of a prominent Georgian writer, Gamsakhurdia began his anti-Communist dissident activities in the 1950s. After becoming Chairman of the parliament, he was elected president in May 1990 with eighty-six per cent of the vote. Adopting the slogan ‘Georgia for Georgians’ he utilized the ethnic question to increase his popularity, but in promoting majority rights antagonized relations with minorities, threatening their cultural and political security and thereby helping to bring about the war in South Ossetia.
———————–
So, how come there is so much outrage about neo-Nazi slogans proclaimed by some private individuals in Russia, while the identical neo-Nazi slogans, proclaimed by the President of Georgia and the 86% of the Georgian population, were viewed in the West as proof that Georgia is “democratic and pro-Western”? Is Nazism really pro-Western and democratic? And why were the Abkhazians and Ossetians unjustified when they got scared by the Nazi government in Georgia that wanted to ethnically cleanse them out of Georgia? Are the people in the West willing to forgive any kind of Nazism and racism, just in order to get new members into NATO?
Sigh.
Now RTR, such people have been out of power in Georgia too, since 1992/1993, when Georgians fought a nasty civil war to be rid of him.
Georgia for Georgians was part of the independence struggle, as was dead as a slogan in Georgia over 15 years ago.
In addition, “Abkhazia for Abkhazians” (Apsu Abkhazians that is) pre dates “Georgia for Georgians” by over a decade, the slogan was used by Ardzinba as early as 1978. And as shown by Apsu oppression of the remaining Georgian population in Gali and Khodori, Apus fascism is still alive and well.
The only genocidal policies enacted in the Caucasus have been those enacted by Russia’s allies, the Apsu (against Georgians), the Ossetians (against Ingush and Georgians), the Armenians (against Azeri, Georgians, Jews, Turks etc) and by the Russian state.
In addition, under Gamsakhurdias government, laws were passed in the Georgian parliament making Apsu/Abkhazian a state language of Georgia, which it is to this day, Gamsakhurdia and his good friend Ardzinba created a power structure in Abkhazia that allowed a minority (17%) population of Apsu to dictate to the Georgian (47%) population by guaranteeing Apsu a majority in state legislature.
In fact, Ardzinba actually aided Gamsakhurdia against Sheverdnadze.
Both Gamsakhurdia and Sheverdnadze supported the protection of the Apsu language as a state language of Georgia, and offered autonomy for the region and the protection of Abkhazian culture, hardly the actions of someone intent on ethnic cleansing of the Apsu.
To this day, Abkhazians and Ossetians, not to mention Azeri and Armenians, living in Georgia have the right to study in state schools in their own languages as opposed to the Georgians living in Abkhazia and South Ossetia who are forbidden from speaking their native language in public places, are forbidden from learning it in state schools, or even in private schools.
You also fail to mention that groups like HRW, the UN, the Council of Europe have all condemned the planned eradication and eviction of the Georgian populations of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
In reality Voice of Treason, you support neo nazi policies on the part of Russia and it’s allies.
Andrew, ever heard of Baku pogroms? Sumgait pogrom? Zarskaya road massacre? Mkhedrioni? Jaba Ioseliani? Shamil Basaev? Doku Umarov?
The topic is Russian racism; you are trying to deflect our attention by changing the topic. Whether Georgia and Georgians (as well as America and Americans) are good or bad is not at issue here.
Please stop spamming; if you can’t help yourself, just go away
RV, so what do you ask us to discuss?
That author met 5 Russian “skinheads” singing their chants?
He definitely did.
Discussion closed?
The issue was not just about those five Nazis; it was that their activities, according to the author at least, were gladly approved by the public
RV,
What many Russians do agree with is the opposition to new immigration from other countries, and especially illegal immigration.
But this is hardly unique to Russia. The same feelings are shared all over Europe and the World.
Surely you have heard the news that the state of Arizona has just enacted a law, ordering the police to stop any person (including American citizens) who looks “suspiciously” Hispanic and to arrest them if they have no valid American ID on them. There are hundreds of thousands of American citizens in Arizona who are (and look) Hispanic. They will be constantly harassed, and if they ever forget their ID at home – they will be thrown in jail.
Arizona is a state in the United States of America. And not only have the voters and the legislators voted for this bill, but the Governor of Arizona has signed it, and the lawyers say that this law doesn’t contradict the American constitution.
Surely, the fact that a dozen or so Moscow subway riders hate illegal immigrants, pales in comparison with what’s going on in the entire state of Arizona and its government.
Read half of these fellow posters, RV, and say, would they cheer up those skinheads, if they were of their ethnicity?
Bohdan? aaa? Fabio? And it’s been only four days I read all this rubbish.
@Are the people in the West willing to forgive any kind of Nazism and racism, just in order to get new members into NATO?
Dude, the answer is, basically, no, not any. Only moderate ones.
Take one fresh Franco, add some Saudis, Saddam and Khomeyni (put them in separately), add some color with black colonels of Greece. Add some exotic spicy Khmer Rouges and pour in some korean Chun Doo-hwan – just for the scent. Add whatever you find fit – depends on your taste. Then cook on CIA double boiler for 20 minutes.
As a final accord, put in a half tea spoon of Luis García Meza Tejada, Augusto Pinochet, Hugo Banzer each, and some ten-twelve other Latin American spices and mix.
You’ll get a delicious Free World!
:)
Racism
According to several reports racism has increasingly become a problem in Russian society. Foreign coloured students and minorities, especially from the Caucasus and Central Asia, are stereotyped and subject of violent attacks. Analysts attribute this increased racism to the terrorist attacks and the enduring war in Chechnya, which makes that Muslims are more often approached with suspicion. The search for a scapegoat for daily problems related to poverty and the continuous influx of labour migrants from Central Asia and the Caucasus is an often mentioned explanation.
In a survey by the All-Russian Center for Public Opinion Studies (VTSIOM) published in August 2004, 61% of those polled approved of the “Russia for Russians” slogan, almost twice the 31% level recorded in 1998. According to a study by the Moscow-based Ekspertiza Foundation, an independent think tank, 60% of those surveyed wanted to limit the presence of people from the Caucasus in the country, while 51% wanted similar constraints on the Chinese and 42% wanted to limit the influence of Jews.
According to an analyst of the International Bureau for Human Rights there are over 50,000 skinheads in Russia. Russian skinheads are openly admiring and imitating German Nazi’s. Therefore they are also called Russian neo-Nazi’s. Russian neo-Nazi organisations generally define themselves as standing outside of the political process. The most prominent organisation is the Russian National Union led by Aleksandr Barkashov. In the political scene it is particularly the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia, lead by Vladimir Zhirinovskii, which can be associated with racist views. During the 2003 election campaign observers noted examples of “black PR” campaigning with a racist character.
On 3 September 2007, Russian human rights organisations published shocking new data on the extent of racist violence in Russia. It was reported that by 3 September 2007, already 38 people had been murdered in racist killings, and more than 300 people had been injured. The organisation stated that the victims mainly came from Central Asia and the Caucasus, but that also racists have begun targeting minorities like homosexuals.
On 22 February 2008, the Kyrgyz parliament passed a resolution calling on Russian lawmakers to address the increase in hate crimes in Russia. Kyrgyz president Kurmanbek Bakiev, in Moscow on 22 February to attend the informal CIS summit, also urged Russia to do more to curb the wave of racially motivated crimes. The resolution was passed by the parliament after ten Kyrgyz citizens has been murdered in the first two months of 2008 alone. Russian officials did not yet publicly comment on the killings. According to the Kyrgyz interior ministry, so far eleven people have been detained in Moscow in connection with the killings of two Kyrgyz. Human rights groups, however, criticize Russian prosecutors for filing many racially motivated attacks as “hooliganism”, a charge which carries lighter sentences than hate crimes. It therefore remains to be seen how dedicated the Russian authorities in fact are to stem the surge of racism in the country.
http://www.europeanforum.net/country/russia
Human Rights researchers in Moscow have published documents showing “Nazi skinheads are being encouraged, organized, and used by Russia’s ruling circles in their own interests.” And Isvestiya reported that “Nazi skinheads from an openly fascist organization, the NNP (People’s National Party), were being trained at the Moscow OMON special-purpose police detachment facilities and that they were being trained specifically by OMON coaches.” Several years ago Russian historian Vladimir Ilyushenko asserted that “some parties view skinheads as their reserve. The process of encouraging fascist sentiments in Russia is steered by government officials.” Young fascists have been linked to National Front, Russian National Socialist Party and Russian National Party politicians. Fascists have also successfully infiltrated the Motherland Party, which is widely believed to have been created by Putin to counter parties on the extreme right.
……
The danger in Russia is not the revival of an expansionist communist state, as some American conservatives and neo-cons have ridiculously asserted. Rather, it is the ideology of growing ultra-nationalism that has found expression in Neo-Nazism, elements of the Russian Orthodox Church, the Russian judicial system, and government policies that systematically discriminate against non-Russians.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/phillip-martin/neo-nazism-in-russia-was_b_119509.html
This petition also available in red and white.
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?dl8s1965
Why do they need petitions at all?
They have a wall on Mexican border, don’t they?
There are hundreds of thousands of Mexican-Americans in Arizona, Dmitry. How else can you harass Mexican-looking people, if not by ordering the police to stop and arrest those who look “suspiciously” Mexican? You don’t understand how racists think.
The idiotism beyound this all is Spanish Americans are no threat to the state. The are quite as hard working (especially women, I beleive), they are paying their taxes, they don’t normally carry Shahid belts (do they?:)). They don’t blow up Pentagon. Don’t shoot children at schools. There is an ethnic crime, but the reason is not ethnicity here.
Becoming a Spanish country one day would be a very nice choice for the US. They would stay Caucasian, Christian, with European language and gain a better fertility. Much better choice than France becoming a Islamic Republic of France, or, say Sweden becoming Turkish. (I have heard these opinions from Europeans, of course).
Still someone needs a safegoat all the time, in every country.
Dmitry,
To be fair, neither USA nor Russia are made out of rubber. USA is not prepared to get, say, 100 million new immigrants. That’s why the numbers of immigrants that are allowed to enter USA legally, is very restricted.
Moreover, if 100 million immigrants, all Spanish-speaking, come to Western USA, English will die. Everything will be done in Spanish. Here in California, English-speakers will soon be in the minority. Wanting to restrict illegal immigration is understandable. It is the Arizonan idea of stopping and arresting people just because they look Mexican – that’s what is terrible and racist.
Sorry VOR, you are lying again.
The law simply stipulates that those who are legal residents (but not citizens) must provide proof when asked to do so by a law enforcement officer.
They will only be arrested if found to be in the US illegally, which is quite reasonable, as anyone who has entered the US illegally has (duh) broken the law.
Are you worried about your own status maybe?
No, Andrew, I am not worried. If I ever go to Arizona, nobody will stop me, because I have white man’s skin, large green-blue eyes and medium-brown hair. So, I am not “suspicious”-looking. The people, who are “suspicious-looking” are Mexican-Americans and other Americans who look like they have a lot of Native American blood in them.
http://media.www.thelamron.com/media/storage/paper1150/news/2010/04/29/Opinion/Arizona.AntiImmigration.Law.An.Attack.On.Civil.Liberties-3915338.shtml
Arizona anti-immigration law an attack on civil liberties
The state of Arizona now requires all citizens to carry identification and legal documentation as well as to submit to random questioning from any police officer at any time. The grounds for questioning? Looking “suspicious.”
If there aren’t serious alarm bells going off in your head right now, please read that again. Police can stop any random person walking down the street and detain them if they do not have an acceptable form of identification or cannot answer a question correctly.
What does “illegal” look like? Illegal immigrants in Arizona come primarily from Mexico and South America. Mexicans and South Americans are Hispanic. There is absolutely no way that race will not be the primary factor in determining who gets questioned and who does not.
Additionally, there are thousands of Hispanics living legally in Arizona who are going to be subjected to this racial profiling for no reason; their rights as law-abiding American citizens will be disregarded simply because of their race. Brewer’s bill is targeting Hispanics, illegal or not, and she needs to own up to it. The next logical step is to make Hispanics visibly display their identity somewhere on their clothing, right? Oh wait – Hitler already did that. Zero points for creativity.
Voice of Reason: “I have white man’s skin, large green-blue eyes and medium-brown hair” – you’re cute (NOT GAY):D
My point was that Christians, Hispanics or any other, do not pose any serious danger to predominantly Protestant culture of the States.
France (my POV) faces much bigger threat with it’s 10% and fastly growing Muslim population. Right now they have more practicing Muslims than practicing Christians in France.
What if they are going to have three time that much Muslims in the next 20 years, what would be the second-strongest political party in France – French Muslim union? What awaits them – a civil war about all French women wearing hijabs?
Andrew wrote: “ Now RTR, such people have been out of power in Georgia too, since 1992/1993”
Yes, Andrew, Gamsakhurdia is no longer in power in Georgia. He died. And yes, Shevardnadze did throw him out less than 20 years ago, thanks to the help from the Russian troops. But so what?
1. You post at least 100 posts per week, accusing Russians of all kinds of “crimes” committed by the Czars 150 years ago and by Stalin 75 years ago. If Russia is guilty of the crimes committed by a dictator 75 years ago, surely Georgia is guilty of crimes committed by their freely elected (by the 86% vote!) first President (the George Washington of Georgia!) less than 20 years ago.
From now on, you will stop blaming Russians for anything that happened before Putin came to power, right? :-)
2. What’s done is done. Slobodan Milosevic too is no longer in power in Serbia and dead. He was voted out of office, and then arrested and sent to the Hague for trial. And yet, USA and NATO are not giving Kosovo back to Serbia, is it? So, why should Georgia get Abkhazia and Ossetia back?
3. What you conveniently forget is that Shevardnadze too is no longer in power in Georgia. He was thrown out by the Rose Revolution, and his enemy – Saakashvili – came to power. President Saakashvili is a admirer of Gamsakhurdia, and his first act in office was to rehabilitate the memory of this Nazi monster and to name a major street in his honor:
http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Mikhail_Saakashvili/.
Saakashvili was sworn in as President in Tblisi on January 25, 2004. On January 26, in a ceremony held at the Tbilisi Kashueti Church of Saint George, he promulgated a decree granting permission for the return of the body of the first President of Georgia, Zviad Gamsakhurdia to Tbilisi and renaming a major road in the capital after Gamsakhurdia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zviad_Gamsakhurdia
On January 26, 2004, in a ceremony held at the Kashueti Church of Saint George in Tbilisi, the newly elected President Mikhail Saakashvili officially rehabilitated Gamsakhurdia and praised Gamsakhurdia’s role as a “great statesman and patriot”
Here is the picture:
http://www.rferl.org/content/Georgian_Parliament_Approves_New_Probe_Into_First_Presidents_Death/1859256.html
Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili attends services ahead of the reburial of Zviad Gamsakhurdia in March 2007.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL31702787
Georgians pay last respects to first president
MTSKHETA, Georgia, March 31 2007 (Reuters) – Thousands of Georgians paid their respects on Saturday to former president Zviad Gamsakhurdia. Gamsakhurdia’s body returned from Russia to his native land earlier this week and is to be buried in a pantheon in the capital Tbilisi alongside other prominent Georgians on Sunday.
Queues of people with candles, portraits of the ex-president, Georgian national flags and flowers stood outside Stetitskhoveli cathedral in Georgia’s ancient capital Mtskheta. More crowds stood inside the cathedral, where some of Georgia’s kings are buried. The coffin, covered with an old-style Georgian flag, was placed in the centre of the cathedral.
Under Gamsakhurdia’s brief rule in 1990-1991, Georgia was plunged into chaos and civil war, which eventually led to two pro-Russian regions of the country breaking away from Tbilisi.
Well, he is remembered as the man who ended 200 years of Russian occupation and misrule.
None of the former Georgian presidents is especially loved by the people. Every one Georgian president ever elected astarted a new war within the former Georgian SSR borders with a new nation – Ossetians, Abkhazians, Ajarians.
Nevertheless, Misha, of course, should ballot for the third term and Georgians must reelect him, they love him so.
Vote for Misha again in 2013! Vote for Jeb Bush for president of the US in 2012!
As for So, why should Georgia get Abkhazia and Ossetia back?.
International law, not rewarding ethnic cleansing by Apsu and Ossetian separatists, that sort of thing.
Not to mention all the UN resolutions that describe them as part of Georgia.
But never mind VOR, you are a big supporter of ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity, we all know this.
Your support of the war crimes of Milosevic, Ardzinba, and others is a sad indictment on your failings as a human being.
If you had been alive 70 years ago, you would have been a gulag guard or a capo.
Andrew wrote: “If you had been alive 70 years ago, you would have been a gulag guard or a capo.”
You are scum-sucking ape, as LR would say. When you were afraid that my criticism of you would further damage your reputation, you made us swear that we would stop personal attacks towards each other. Well, you have just accused me of being a war criminal, Andrew.
You are a lying, cheating scumball with no integrity or honor, Andrew.
And if you had been alive 70 years ago, you would have been hording Ossetians, Armenians, Jews and Abkhazian into Nazi concentration camps.
No you lying troll,
You were the one who wanted a ceasefire, I couldn’t care less what you have to say.
I pointed out your rank hypocrisy in crying like the little fag you are about others insulting you, when you heap verbal abuse upon them.
All know you are an dishonorable lying piece of human waste.
So capo, for that is what you are, why don’t you go back to Russia, where racist maniacs like yourself are top of the manure heap?
Your disgusting amoral personality would fit right in.
Andrew wrote: “However, enough of the ad hominem attacks RTR”
RTR wrote: “OK, Andrew, if you want “break the spiral of violence” and to stop ad hominem attacks between us, I will oblige. I will try to avoid any ad hominem attacks towards you, until and unless you abandon your own restraint on this matter. If one of us honestly forgets this agreement for a second, he should be reminded and should apologize. But if one of us deliberately persists in his ad hominem attacks – the deal is off. Is this a deal?”
Adrew wrote: “Why not. Always better to have a polite disagreement.
Andrew wrote today: “If you had been alive 70 years ago, you would have been a gulag guard or a capo… You were the one who wanted a ceasefire, I couldn’t care less what you have to say. I pointed out your rank hypocrisy in crying like the little fag you are about others insulting you, when you heap verbal abuse upon them. All know you are an dishonorable lying piece of human waste.”
So, who is the lying dishonorable scum here, Andrew?
Simple RTR, it’s you.
You repeatedly broke the agreement.
I am not really bothered by your low level of intelligence or honesty.
But my descriptions of you are on the nail.
If you don’t like it, well I guess you can go cry to mummy (as you accuse others of doing).
No, Andrew, I will just return to making fun of you and your stupidity and pathological lying.
Sorry RTR, you are the one who cries like a baby when Robert (or myself) poke holes in your retarded interpretation of history.
As for pathological lying, well we leave that up to you.
Your comments about Georgia being far more corrupt than Russia spring to mind, when groups like Transparency International see Georgia as being far less corrupt than Russia.
Your claim that Georgia has a “nazi” or “fascist” government, when Freedom House rates Georgia as far freer than “not Free” Russia.
Your claim that Russia has free media, and that Georgia does not, when Freedom House, Transparency International, and Reporters Without Borders all rate Georgia far better than Russia.
Your support of ethnic cleansing and agressive wars on the part of Russia and it’s allies, while condemning western attempts to remove real dictators.
Your inability to read, let alone even understand, the IFFC report which you inanely claim supported Russia, when in fact it condemned as illegal every single one of Russia’s actions before during and after the August war, and incidentally found no evidence of “genocide” on the part of the Georgians, but plenty of evidence of massive crimes against humanity on the part of Russia and it’s allies.
You are the one who is stupid VOR/RTR/Arthur/Michael Tal/Phobodunce/Ostap the Bender.
You are also the one who has been repeatedly banned for lying and falsification.
Andrew, I have no time to make fun of your drivel but let me make clear what the IFFC report’s main conclusion is. Because the report is huge and it tries to be objective, its authors summarized their conclusions. Here it is:
http://politics.finchannel.com/Main_News/Politics/62896_Tagliavini_Report_Heard_at_PACE_Debates/
“In the mission’s view, it was Georgia, which triggered off the war, when it attacked Tskhinvali with heavy artillery on the night of 7 to 8 of August, 2008,” she said.
“None of the explanations, given by the Georgian authorities in order to provide some form of legal justification for the attack, landed valid explanation. In particular, to the best of the mission’s knowledge, there was no massive Russian military invasion underway, which had to be stopped by Georgian military forces shelling Tskhinvali.”
Oh, I forgot the previous paragraph:
When she moved to laying out the mission’s key findings, Tagliavini started with, as she put it, “the answer to the question, which in the past has been asked most frequently. In the mission’s view, it was Georgia, which triggered off the war, when it attacked Tskhinvali with heavy artillery on the night of 7 to 8 of August, 2008,” she said.
Now RTR, in addition, the authors said that all parties were to blame, and repeatedly blamed Russia for years of provocations.
Robert and I have both actually read the report (unlike yourself)
In addition, they repeated that comment just the other day.
‘Everyone lost’ in Russia-Georgia war, says EU mission
An EU-funded fact-finding mission has blamed all parties for the brief August 2008 war between Russia and Georgia, saying the two nations and the separatist regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia were all losers in the conflict.
Though Georgia “triggered the war” with a heavy artillery attack on the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali, the attack was not an isolated event but rather the culmination of years of mounting tensions, Swiss diplomat Heidi Tagliavini, who led the inquiry into the causes of the war, said Wednesday. All sides bear responsibility, she added.
Tagliavini’s comments came on the eve of tense debates in a Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, or PACE, session about the consequences of the August 2008 war. She recited key findings of the mission’s report, released last September, in an address to the PACE, the Civil Georgia news website reported.
According to Tagliavini, the report by the Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia was made public immediately after its release in order “to avoid misquotations and misinterpretations.” She said reactions to the report in the press and in the public had been mainly “positive, or factual and neutral.”
Summarizing her team’s findings on the conflict during the PACE debate, Tagliavini said there were no winners and losers in the conflict: “Everyone has lost. All parties to the conflict failed, there were terrible violations of humanitarian and human-rights law, and both the threat and use of force have returned to European politics.”
Dialogue at all levels is the only way forward, she said.
Tagliavini said the fact-finding mission – the first of its kind in EU history – was not leading an investigation relevant to a judiciary proceeding of any sort.
“It was strictly a fact-finding mission,” she said. “In the mission’s view, it was Georgia that triggered off the war when it attacked Tskhinvali with heavy artillery on the night of Aug. 7-8, 2008.”
However, she said, the Georgian attack against the South Ossetian capital was by no means an isolated event. “It was the culminating point of months and years of mounting tension, of armed incidents and [a] steadily deteriorating situation. All sides to the conflict bear responsibility for these ever-more serious developments.”
Although blaming Georgia for triggering the war, Tagliavini said Russia “too is to blame for a substantial number of violations of international law.”
Passive international approach
The international community also bears its share of the responsibility, said Tagliavini, who criticized the “passive and non-innovative approach to the peace processes” taken by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe and the United Nations.
Following Tagliavini’s address, debates were held, during which the head of the Georgian delegation, Petre Tsiskarishvili, told the assembly that the presence of Russian forces and the shelling of Georgian villages in the conflict zone prior to the attack on Tskhinvali by Georgian forces was already “the start of the war.”
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=everyone-lost-in-august-war-says-eu-mission-2010-04-29
And as the Wall Street Journal pointed out at the time:
The roughly 1,000-page report, released on Wednesday by Swiss diplomat Heidi Tagliavini, found no evidence to support Russian claims Georgia committed genocide the night of Aug. 7-8, 2008.
The conflict, which briefly brought the U.S. and Russia into Cold War-style confrontation, left hundreds of people dead and 35,000 displaced, and severely weakened Europe’s security agreements. Russian forces remain in occupation of two Georgian territories, Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Moscow has recognized them as independent states.
Ms. Tagliavini’s conclusions were nervously awaited by both sides, each of which has brought lawsuits against the other in international courts.
While the report attacked Russia’s efforts to enforce a sphere of influence among its ex-Soviet neighbors, the finding that Georgia shot first could undermine Tbilisi’s push to join Western institutions such as the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and the EU.
The hostilities themselves were the “culmination” of a long series of events, and neither side could be held solely responsible for the conflict, the report said.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125431087432152321.html
And from the report:
3.) The shelling of Tskhinvali by the Georgian armed forces during the night of 7 to 8 August 2008 marked the beginning of the large-scale armed conflict in Georgia, yet it was only the culminating point of a long period of increasing tensions, provocations and incidents.
Now RTR, we all know that people with your limited intellect are slow learners, but really I think a remedial reading program would be of great assistance to you.
And do you also agree with the IFFC reports findings that all of Russia’s actions were illegal.
Come on, I would like to get your opinion on this matter.
Come on RTR, don’t weasel out of it.
Do you accept the reports findings that all of Russia’s actions were illegal?
Every single one of them, including all of its pre war provocations that the writers state directly contributed to the war.
Do you admit that Russia at best failed to stop ethnic cleansing by its allies, and at worse planned and facilitated it?
Do you admit that the report clearly states that not a single one of the military actions taken by Russia was justified under international law?
That every reason given by Russia for its invasion of Georgia was found to be illegal and unjustified by the comission?
Have you even read the report?
Really RTR, you are a brain dead moron, incapable of any rational thought or understanding of history.
Resentment towards illegal immigrants is hardly restricted to Moscow, Russia or even Arizona, USA.
In Britain, things are even worse. In Britain, the hatred towards legal immigrants is considered sacred. Didn’t you hear the latest scandal that has rocked all of UK?
While campaigning, Prime Minister Brown encountered a bigoted woman, who said that she was scared by “Eastern European immigrants” (read: Poles). After he drove away, Brown referred to her as a “bigoted woman”. This remark was overheard, and now the entire British public is outraged by Brown’s remark. Brown has been forced to apologize to the bigot, who hates for Polish immigrants, but he is likely to lose the election over this. Evidently, hatred towards legal immigrants is the sacred cow in UK, and if you refer to anti-immigrant and anti-Polish bigots as “bigots” – you will be ostracized.
Good Day, Voice, you neo-soviet potemkin primate! Say, I’ve been meaning to ask you about something you linked to several days back, but it’d be off-topic now and there’s no reason to disturb these good people while they’re enjoying themselves. Could you drop me a line at Francis.Smythberesford@gmail.com ?
Guys, you both – would you like to contact me, write at theupsky@gmail.com.
I’m quitting these Special Olympics, leaving it to the “good people” who were born for it:D
“Holding their arms out in a V or clapping, the kids sang… “We’ll kick out all the hachi.” … Hachi is the quite derogatory term for people from the Caucasus or Central Asia who have flooded into Moscow in search of economic opportunity, and it is the equivalent of “spic” or “wetback.”
Speaking of “spics” and “wetbacks”. I have great news for these bigoted Moscow soccer fans. Have I got a great job for them! A dream come true.
The state of Arizona has just enacted a new law mandating that the police must stop and harass all Americans who look like “spics” or “wetbacks”. And if they have no papers on then – they must be arrested. And if they are in America illegally – they must be deported.
And the Arizona police is looking for new recruits to execute these new laws! So, these skinheads should apply for these jobs. Truly dream jobs for them: their entire job will be to harass and arrest “spics” and “wetbacks”, they will be paid well, and they will live in a state where the majority hates dark-skinned immigrants.
Lol, looks like you should throw that idea to the Arizona police chief to get this trash out of my country.
:)
I also saw many sites where Russian news RT and other Russian sites which criticize or always try to show negativity about America, always showing that the American economy will fall, this is bad and that is bad in America etc. I mean this means Russia is also a very jealous country while being racist. If you can’t compete with them then criticize them? heh. 1 question here why are Anna Kournikova and Maria Sharapova(Both Russian) living in US?(From Wikipedia)
Are they afraid of something in Russia?
Did you say you were an Indian? Well, why do so many Indians live in England and USA? Are they afraid of something in India?
And why is it that whenever I call tech support and am redirected to India, the people there always tell me with a thick Indian accent that their name is “Bob” or “Leroy” or “Steve”? Ashamed of their own Indian names?
Because they get a better quality of life there. And no they are not afraid of anything, everybody likes a successful nation and want to immigrate there. Immigration is not a new phenomenon, it has happened for thousands of years, people have always immigrated to more favorable land.
But please at least Indians don’t criticize any country. but Russian news and websites are full of them.
Also, they might be using those names just to get more support or more favor from you people because if they told their original name you people might not give that much importance. As you might like to hear those names.
I think i answered you queries ;)
But please can you elaborate about that divide and rule policy of British in India, that had and is still some what causing problems here.
A bit like the Russian divide and rule policy that still causes so much suffering and misunderstanding in the Caucasus.
“But please can you elaborate about that divide and rule policy of British in India, that had and is still some what causing problems here.”
Well, you know more about this than we do. So, please educate us.
Russians do know a bit about the colonization of India and feel for Indians. In Russia, India is liked a lot and is considered a friend country.
They are both living there since they were sent there to train in their childhood. They still train with their american trainer, and live there. They were sent there on the money of Russian budget. Both are Russian citizens and pay their taxes in Russia.
Really?
Usually one has to pay taxes in the place of residence, ex-pats working in Russia pay taxes to the Russian government, while ex-pats working in the USA pay taxes to the US government.
Are you suggesting they are engaged in tax evasion against the US Federal Authorities?
Of course, given the criminal tendencies of Russians like yourself I suspect you see nothing wrong with tax evasion….
Andrew, now that you have broken the pact, I can tel you: you are an ignorant fool. As an American citizen, I have to pay American taxes no matter where in the World I work or live. Under certain conditions, my tax liability may be reduced, but I am still liable for some taxes. Consult your tax attorney for details.
But it is nice to know that you don’t file tax returns and don’t pay any taxes to the New Zealand government. I wonder if this is OK with them…
Yes, quite fine, as I am permanent resident in a foreign country, and paying income tax locally.
By the way VOR, you really are a cretin, I was stating that ex-pats working in the US (ie non US citizens) pay taxes to the US government, while ex-pats (ie non Russian citizens) working in Russia pay taxes to the Russian government.
In some countries such as the US, laws state that citizens working for companies based in the US, but on overseas postings must pay home country taxes, though this is usually only if the persons “centre of gravity” is in the home country, for example they are resident the majority of a year in that country.
As I understand the US government states that taxes paid to the appropriate government in the country of earning are credited against the taxes that would normally be paid to the IRS
Generally, you should file returns for the past three years, taking the foreign earned income exclusion, the foreign tax credit, or both. It would be extremely unlikely that there would be any late penalties assessed, since penalties are computed as a percentage of tax owed, and only the rare taxpayer would actually owe tax in this situation.
Does this mean that you have been cheating foreign governments out of tax revenue VOR/RTR/Phobodunce/Arthur/Ostap Bender/Michael Tal? (my, you have been banned a few times for dishonesty)
What are you hiding VOR?
How much money have you cheated foreign governments out of?
No, Andrew, Americans, who work abroad, pay taxes both to their new countries and to the US government. And Russian tennis players, residing in USA, pay taxes both to the US and the Russian government. Why is it so hard for you to understand simple logic?
Well, thats not what the US embassy in Britain seems to think.
If you pay a sufficient level of tax to the country in which you are working, you should not have to pay tax in the US.
So are you cheating on foreign taxes RTR?
Explain to me more, Andrew, about your thinking. Which “sufficient level of tax” am I paying to Britain, and which foreign country am I cheating by working in my home country of USA and paying my US taxes?
Usually one has to pay taxes where he earns money. US citizens have to pay US taxes whereever they are, but that’s not a case for the world.
If a Russian citizen lives in the US, trains there, earns, say, at Switzerland (where his bank is, and where the bank of, say, Roland Garros may be) – he won’t give a broken dime to the US budget, and would be right about it.
Same about any US businessman, which earns at Seyshelles or Nauri.
They all own you. That simple:D
No, US citizens are made to prove that they have been paying the appropriate taxes in country of earning by filing a tax return.
If they have been paying local taxes correctly it is very rare that they would then have to pay US taxes in addition
As the US embassy website said:
Generally, you should file returns for the past three years, taking the foreign earned income exclusion, the foreign tax credit, or both. It would be extremely unlikely that there would be any late penalties assessed, since penalties are computed as a percentage of tax owed, and only the rare taxpayer would actually owe tax in this situation.
So once again RTR, congrats on being caught lying (and it seems on being a tax cheat)
Andrew wrote: “So once again RTR, congrats on being caught lying (and it seems on being a tax cheat)”
Where did you get the idea that I live and work outside of the USA? I assure you that I live, work and pay taxes in California.
Why would I need to pay taxes to any foreign country, be it UK, New Zealand or Georiga?
However, if I were to work abroad, I would go to the IRS site and read the very first sentence there:
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97324,00.html
U.S. Citizens and Resident Aliens Abroad
If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.
Which part of “Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside” don’t you understand, genius?
Once again moron:
Generally, you should file returns for the past three years, taking the foreign earned income exclusion, the foreign tax credit, or both. It would be extremely unlikely that there would be any late penalties assessed, since penalties are computed as a percentage of tax owed, and only the rare taxpayer would actually owe tax in this situation.
You just seem to be the type to be a tax cheat, after all, you are inherently dishonest.
Tell me, what part of only the rare taxpayer would actually owe tax in this situation don’t you understand?
Andrew, idiot, you copied some Q&A from the US Embassy in Britain. I don’t live in Britain. I live in USA. I pay USA taxes. What gave you the idea that I live in Britain and owe taxes there?
And what is your point? That Americans, working in Britain, pay so much in British taxes that they don’t usually owe US taxes? If so – good for them. But how does it prove that they are cheating on British taxes?
And given that I have never lived or worked in UK, how does it relate to me? What do you want from me?
You have boldfaced the same passage only the rare taxpayer would actually owe tax in this situation about Americans working in UK again and again. It seems to hold some magic spell on you. But this passage says nothing about tax cheating. On the contrary, it says that usually, no tax is owed to the IRS.
So, how do you figure that I owe some taxes to the British? This text that you quote doesn’t talk about British taxes.
Have you gone totally bohdan on us here? Do you need a doctor?
Same rules in other countries:
I am a U.S. Citizen living overseas, do I need to file a U.S. tax return?
Yes, most U.S. Citizens must report their worldwide income on their U.S. tax return (minimum income levels apply as determined by filing status). This also applies to those people who are self-employed and earn a net-profit of US$400 or more as they are subject to social security and medical taxes. In many instances, you will qualify to claim an exclusion of up to US$70,000 for your foreign earned income; however, you must file a return to claim the exclusion. You also may be entitled to a credit for taxes paid to a foreign government, but you must file a return to claim this credit.
http://newzealand.usembassy.gov/irs.html
Then there are the helpful people at the IRS
Foreign Earned Income Exclusion
If you meet certain requirements, you may qualify for the foreign earned income and foreign housing exclusions and the foreign housing deduction.
If you are a U.S. citizen or a resident alien of the United States and you live abroad, you are taxed on your worldwide income. However, you may qualify to exclude from income up to $91,400 of your foreign earnings. In addition, you can exclude or deduct certain foreign housing amounts.
You may also be entitled to exclude from income the value of meals and lodging provided to you by your employer. Refer to Exclusion of Meals and Lodging in Publication 54, Tax Guide for U.S. Citizens and Resident Aliens Abroad, and Publication 15-B, Employer’s Tax Guide to Fringe Benefits for more information.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97130,00.html
Foreign Tax Credit
If you paid or accrued foreign taxes to a foreign country on foreign source income and are subject to U.S. tax on the same income, you may be able to take either a credit or an itemized deduction for those taxes. Taken as a deduction, foreign income taxes reduce your U.S. taxable income. Taken as a credit, foreign income taxes reduce your U.S. tax liability. In most cases, it is to your advantage to take foreign income taxes as a tax credit
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97122,00.html
I am simply pointing out that you are lying about/deliberately misrepresenting US tax law in relation to it’s citizens.
As to where you pay taxes, I could not care less.
What I am saying is that given your habitual lying and falsification, and you lack of anything remotely resembling honor and human decency, that the IRS would be well advised to have a look at your finances.
Andrew, that’s not what I asked. Let me repeat:
Which “foreign governments” are you saying I am “cheating” by working in California and paying US taxes? Please be specific. Also please explain why you think that I should pay taxes to these “foreign governments” but should not have to pay tax in the US?
Also, Andrew, just in case any Americans are reading this, I want to warn them that despite your protestations, it is still the law that if you are an American citizen, your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.. Read the IRS documents and consult your international tax accountant or lawyer.
Now Voice of Retardation, I never said it was not US law that you had to file a tax return.
What I was saying (and the IRS agrees with me here) is that in the case of US citizens working and living outside the USA, that in the vast overwhelming number of cases that they will pay tax to the government of the country in which they live and work, and that this income will be exempted, or that they can claim a tax credit for taxes paid to foreign governments on money earned.
If your (somewhat simplistic and stupid) view of taxation was correct, then very few American citizens would bother to work overseas, particularly in NGO’s etc.
Of course one should always check with a tax lawyer or accountant, but not (if Voice of Retardation is anything to go by) an economist.
Andrew, that’s not what I asked. Let me repeat:
Which “foreign governments” are you saying I am “cheating” by working in California and paying US taxes? Please be specific. Also please explain why you think that I should not have to pay tax to the US IRS, but should pay taxes to some “foreign governments” instead?
Andrew wrote: “Does this mean that you have been cheating foreign governments out of tax revenue VOR? What are you hiding VOR? How much money have you cheated foreign governments out of?
If you pay a sufficient level of tax to the country in which you are working, you should not have to pay tax in the US.
Wrong. Contrary to your idiotic claims that I “shouldn’t have to pay”, I should and do pay tax in US. A lot of tax.
So are you cheating on foreign taxes RTR?
What?! What’s the connection? Which “foreign governments” are you saying I am “cheating” by working in California and paying US taxes? Please be specific. Also please explain why you think that I should pay taxes to these “foreign governments”?
Do you mean that I should pay taxes to the United Kingdom? Why? Are you paying UK taxes? If you don’t – then why should I?
You, on the other hand, may very well have cheated your New Zealand government. Here is what the law says:
http://www.ird.govt.nz/yoursituation-ind/travelling/travellingtoandfromnz-leavinglongterm.html
People leaving New Zealand for the long term
If you have an enduring relationship with New Zealand (eg with social and economic ties, personal property or accommodation here), you continue to be a resident for tax purposes.
—————————————-
You wrote: “I am permanent resident in a foreign country, and paying income tax locally.”
So, you aren’t paying tax to New Zealand. How come? By pursuing this topic, are you asking me to contact the New Zealand authorities and tell them about a certain New Zealand civil engineer named Andrew, working for a Georgian construction company in Tbilisi and married to a Georgian woman, who is not paying his taxes? BTW, are you being paid officially or under the table, like so many other people in Georgia?
Here is a deal if you want: I will let you request the British, US, Spanish, Mexican, French and Chilean authorities (or authorities of any other country or state on this planet) to investigate my tax situation; and I will contact the New Zealand and Georgian authorities concerning your tax situation. A deal?
No ReTaRd,
I am clean in all those categories, which would be fairly obvious if you had read the info (not your strong point I will agree).
All taxes in Georgia have been paid by my employers.
However, feel free to do what you like.
You see RTR, most (non Russians) believe in following the law.
It’s only slimy little individuals like yourself, with a Russian cultural tradition of cheating the law, that tend to break the law at every opportunity.
1. Are you saying, Andrew, that you don’t have an enduring relationship with New Zealand, nosocial, no economic ties, and no personal property in New Zealand? How peculiar…
2. You didn’t answer my questions about the way your brain works. Let me repeat:
Which “foreign governments” are you saying I am “cheating” by working in California and paying US taxes? Please be specific. Also please explain why you think that I should pay taxes to these “foreign governments” but should not have to pay tax in the US?
But even though i am a n Indian and Archbishop Nikon of the Russian Orthodox Church sent a letter to the mayor of Moscow, describing the Hindu deity Krishna as an ‘evil demon’, still i would say that Russian orthodox church in Russia are very very beautiful, charming and have very special attraction. Now decide which Deity is the daemon.
Er, none to a non-beleiver?
As to the Russian Orthodox church official position, you are right: Krishna is a demon. Sorry aboy saying it to an Indian, butdo you beleive, say, Catholics or Protestants think otherwise? Not to say Muslims?
Here’s the explaination of this position: only in Russian, unfortunately.
http://www.interfax-religion.ru/new/?act=documents&div=297
I can’t say I would dare to mess with such matters – I’m no philosofer. Religion will always be very far from being PC, beleive me. And it’s not a Russian fault.
One thing to add: Church does not have anything against Induists. The organisation, which they called a “sect”, an “International Society of the Krishna Conscience” has numerous times stated it does not have anything in common with Hinduists, and is not preaching Hinduism.
The organisation was found in 1966 in the USA. This society is banned in France, Greece, Austria, Belgium and other.
So – this case is not about Hinduism, it’s very much about a modern sect that has 40 years, and their understanding of God.