Sokolov on Katyn

Paul Goble reports:

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has received enormous and largely uncritical international praise for taking part in the commemoration of the Katyn tragedy and for allowing Andrzej Wajda’s film about the Soviet execution of 22,000 Polish officers there in 1940 to be shown on Russian television.  But a careful reading of his remarks, Boris Sokolov suggests in an essay posted on Grani.ru, shows that Putin not only was unprepared to acknowledge many aspects of that horrific act but openly lied about it to bring pressure on Poland to stop raising the issue either bilaterally or internationally.

In his speech, the Grani.ru commentator notes, Putin spoke about “the joint path to making sense of national memory and historical wounds” as being a means to allowing Russians and Poles to “avoid the dead-end of a lack of understanding and eternal settling of scores, the primitive division of peoples into right and guilty, as some dirty politicians sometimes try to do.”  The Russian prime minister added that “in our country has been given a clear political, legal and moral assessment of the misdeeds of the totalitarian regime, and such assessment is not subject to any revisions.” His Polish counterpart Donald Tusk agreed that “the truth about Katyn must not divide the Russian and Polish peoples.”

Such words sound entirely correct, and compared to earlier statements by Russian officials, they represent a significant step forward. But one cannot fail to be struck, Sokolov says, that “the Russian premier spoke more about his sympathy to the victims and said almost nothing about the responsibility of [their] executioners.”  Moreover, Putin declared that for decades, people had attempted to distort “the truth about the Katyn shootings” and to “lay the blame [for them] on the Russian people.” Such a formulation misstates the case of all those who have examined the Katyn murders: those who do hold responsible for them “not the Russian people but the Russian state.”

That of course is a problem for Putin: Not only has the Russian government “declared itself to be the legal successor of the USSR,” but it could eventually face calls to accept “moral responsibility for Katyn” and even “to pay compensation” to the relatives of those who were massacred there.  But there were other parts of Putin’s remarks that were even more cynical and duplicitous, Sokolov suggests. Putin specifically said that “the only thing that can limit access to information about the Katyn tragedy are considerations of a humanitarian character.” Apparently, he fears that relatives of the victims might engage in violence to get it.

“In fact,” the most commentator continues, “these ‘humanitarian reflects’ are called upon only to justify the lack of a desire by the Russian military prosecutor to declassify the accusatory conclusion about the Katyn case where all the supposedly guilty are listed by name. And the concern here,” Sokolov notes, “is not about Polish but about Russian society.”  That is because the Polish Institute of National Memory already has them, but if these documents were declassified, then they would be “no obstacles” to their publication in Russia, and “the country at last would find out the names of its heroes from the punitive organs.” And that, Sokolov point out, is something the Russian powers that be “do not want.”

Equally offensive were Putin’s efforts to link Katyn to the deaths of Soviet soldiers in 1920 at the hands of the Poles. While saying he was “ashamed” that he didn’t know before about Stalin’s role in the Red Army’s drive on Warsaw, Putin nonetheless said that “32,000” Red Army soldiers had died as Polish prisoners “from hunger and disease.”  Both the number Putin cites and the way he uses it are of interest. Polish sources speak about 18-20,000 Red Army soldiers who died in captivity, while certain Russian “hurrah-patriots” give a number of 60,000 or more. Putin clearly chose one that had this virtue: “it exceeds the number of Poles shot by the NKVD in the spring of 1940.”

The Russian prime minister then implied not only that deaths from illness and starvation were equivalent to shootings but that Stalin had remembered the situation in 1920 and in 1940 was simply taking revenge against the Poles. Given what is known about Stalin, Sokolov suggests, that is highly improbable.  On the one hand, Stalin at all times treated those Soviet soldiers who were taken prisoner as enemies of the state. He would hardly have taken revenge on anyone for how they were treated. And on the other hand, Putin’s suggestion that there is “no rational explanation” for why Stalin killed some Poles and exiled others is simply absurd. As Sokolov notes, the Polish officers were shot because their continued survival was a threat to Moscow’s interests, and only their relatives of the few Polish officers prepared to cooperate with Stalin, like Vladislav Anders and Zygmund Bering, were sent to the Siberian and Central Asian camps.

As Sokolov notes, Stalin wanted to completely control the Polish army and the Polish state, and the continued existence of an anti-Soviet Polish officer corps was not in his interest. Stalin expected, Sokolov says, that Hitler would be stopped at the Maginot Line and that France and England along with the Polish government in exile would ally themselves with him. Further, in the course of his speech, Putin could not restrain himself from suggesting that Soviet prisoners of war, executed by the Nazis, lie alongside the executed Polish officers and Soviet citizens who were repressed in 1937-38 by the NKVD – even though research has shown that the Nazis did not shoot Soviet POWs at Katyn.

And in a related effort, Putin tried to suggest that “the shooting of almost 22,000 Poles in the spring of 1940 was part of the crimes of Stalin against Soviet citizens.” Specifically, the Russian premier, said that “the repressions destroyed people regardless of nationality, convictions or religions.” The “logic” of Stalin’s actions was simply “to sow fear, to awaken in men the most base instincts, to set people one against another, and to force them blindly and insanely to admit their guilt.” Thus, Putin attempted in a “not too elegant” way to block any accusations of genocide regarding what happened in Katyn.

But that too is a lie. Stalin focused on nationality: “Not long before Katyn, in 1937-38, the NKVD conducted an operation on ‘national contingents,’ in the frameworks of which were short or thrown into the camps hundreds of thousands of Poles, Germans, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, and representatives of other ‘ill-intentioned’ nationalities.”  The “entire guilt” of these whole peoples as research by Russian and Western historians has repeatedly shown “consisted in the fact that they had their own states beyond the borders of the USSR” and thus could not be assumed to be totally loyal to Stalin and his regime, Sokolov notes.

Consequently, Sokolov concludes, “in the course of the memorial ceremonies, no historic breakthrough on the Katyn question in which Polish politicians and society had placed so much hope in fact took place. Putin did not even hand over any new declassified documents or declare that investigations would be re-started. Instead, even as Putin received plaudits from the international media about his appearance, Russian officials refused to hand over materials to Strasbourg, never once using the words “crime” or “murder” to describe Katyn but preferring to talk about the shooting there as “a case” or “the events in Katyn.”  The showing of Wajda’s film on Russian television was important and a positive step, “although if the film had been shown on one of the two main television channels [and not on a lesser one as was in fact the case, although seldom reported], a great deal more people would have learned the truth about Katyn.”

43 responses to “Sokolov on Katyn

  1. Of course Putin used deflection and denial when dealing with Katyn. He’s a Russian leader, isn’t he?

  2. @Equally offensive were Putin’s efforts to link Katyn to the deaths of Soviet soldiers in 1920 at the hands of the Poles. While saying he was “ashamed” that he didn’t know before about Stalin’s role in the Red Army’s drive on Warsaw, Putin nonetheless said that “32,000” Red Army soldiers had died as Polish prisoners “from hunger and disease.” Both the number Putin cites and the way he uses it are of interest. Polish sources speak about 18-20,000 Red Army soldiers who died in captivity, while certain Russian “hurrah-patriots” give a number of 60,000 or more. Putin clearly chose one that had this virtue: “it exceeds the number of Poles shot by the NKVD in the spring of 1940.”

    I’ll also add here the often forgotten fact the Russian Bolsheviks also killed most of Polish POWs (and wounded soldiers, even burning them alive in the overrun hospitals) in 1920 too.

    They also murdered thousands of Polish civilians during this war, especially the so-called “class enemies”.

    And then even the Polish POWs who embraced Bolshevism and chose to stay in Russia (like thoudsand of Red Army chose to stay in Poland) were murdered later by the NKVD in the Polish Operation in 1937-38.

    And more about this Polish Operation: More than 100,000 various Poles living in the Soviet Union were arrested and shot during the operation. That is, actually several times more than in Katyn massacres 2 years later. But this is not being remembered so much because so many of the Soviet victims were Polish communists, including the entire leadership of the Polish Communsit Party (who fled to Russia after the party was banned in Poland), while the victims of Katyn were all patriots and a big part of the very elite of the nation (thousands of doctors, professors, engineers, who were called-up as reserve officers after the Nazi invasion of Poland).

    • Excuse me for the really bad grammar in the last post.

      During the Polish Operation, the Chekists (under the orders by Yezhov) arrested 140,000 Polish-Soviets, and shot most (111,000) of them.

      As I said it’s often totally overlooked, mainly because there were so many communists among the victims and all the victims were either Soviet citiziens or the Polish fugitives (like the mentioned national traitors from the Polish Communist Party and the war of 1920). One might say “just served them right”, but actually many and possibly even most of them were completely innocent people who were targeted only because of their nationality.

      This genocide was followed by the other “national operations” by the NKVD, targeting other ethnic minorities from Volga Germans to the Chechens, but it was the only one where most of the victims were simply shot and not deported or imprisoned.

  3. Katyn —

    It’s honor to die in the battle defending one’s native land. Here emerges an interesting question on how all those brave high ranking Polish officers found their “glorious” way to Katyn forest graves?
    Did they die with a rifle in their hands?
    A man witha rifle must fight. They were left the right to fight the Soviets in the east and the Germans in the west way back in 1939. They (the Polish elite) failed in both directions and eventually died as traitors of their own people in German and Soviet pits.

    The uncivilised Russians did that job in 1944-1945 having lost 600.000 soldiers. Now do some math and note the actual proportion to make the right judgement in the respect of Katyn.

    Poland – a weak, small and disgraceful nation worth of nothing but deserving to be named a European wh.. down the ages. As far as I could see their posterity’s only dream and hope is leaving their own country possibly for good and be granted American “tourist” visas to tackle illegal jobs in the US replacing Mexicans and Hondurans performing the most sh.tty works. There’s really something to think about seriously if their young people are ready to become illegal sanitation workers in the African city of Atlanta, Georgia and Chicago South Bend despite their “national pride” in the face of their eternal enemy, yet another Slavic nation – Russia. American tourist visa is a national Polish idea at present, believe it or not.
    Is this the only way they deserve being a European nation?
    Silly!!!

    • Are you the same one as” RTR”, possibly some kind of a Mr Hyde of his?

      @A man witha rifle must fight.

      “A man witha rifle” (or rather “witha” pistol) surrendered mostly because in the confusion of the Soviet invasion they were ordered not to fight.

      But here’s the rifle:

      @died as traitors

      Only the Russian retards think their own prisoners of war are automatically “traitors” (and there were over FIVE MILLION of them Soviet POWs to Germany in WWII, all “traitors”, no matter the circumastances) . For most of the rest of the world (even in totalitarian countries, from Nazi Germany to the Baathist Iraq), they’re instead heroes, and only actual traitors are traitors.

      @The uncivilised Russians did that job in 1944-1945 having lost 600.000 soldiers.

      You mean, the job of fighting to death the Soviet invaders? Killing each other? That’s nice. Maybe do it again.

    • You’re the poster child of ignorace and stupidity. This is the American education system, falling short and flat on it’s ass.

  4. rte,
    Katyn wrote;

    Poland – a weak, small and disgraceful nation worth of nothing but deserving to be named a European wh.. down the ages.
    Response,

    We Polish people, truly European, with our European catholic traditions that goes bact to 966AD, CANNOT BE insulated by barbarian russian slaves who walked to the gulags like pigs to the slaughter who only moved forward during the last war battles because there were the politrucks behind them and would shout them at the back if they woudn’t go vperiod. Russian ‘heroes’ who walked to the gulags directly from the Red Square and NEVER resisted. That explains the Western civilization’s total contempt for the Russian barbarians. You are NOT European and never will be. Start learning chinese as soon as possible. As they say in Poland Good Russian is HIV positive Russian.

    • God bless Poland, the people of Georgia share your grief.

      Poland has been a good friend to Georgia, long may you be free from Russian opression.

    • @We Polish people, truly European…

      Oh yes, truly European! I’d even call you sub-European. Churchill was absolutely right when called Poland “hyena of Europe”. Now, because of the greatest mistake of Germany and France to involve your to the EU, your wild barbaric crowds try to get in to Western Europe, mainly for toilet cleaning jobs and crimes.

      @As they say in Poland Good Russian is HIV positive Russian.

      Recent proverb: Good Poliak is one sitting in TU154 and flying to Smolensk.

      • amigo,drug wrote;

        @We Polish people, truly European…

        Oh yes, truly European! I’d even call you sub-European. Churchill was absolutely right when called Poland “hyena of Europe”. Now, because of the greatest mistake of Germany and France to involve your to the EU, your wild barbaric crowds try to get in to Western Europe, mainly for toilet cleaning jobs and crimes.

        @As they say in Poland Good Russian is HIV positive Russian.

        Recent proverb: Good Poliak is one sitting in TU154 and flying to Smolensk

        comment;
        You russian should never ever use the word european – and believe me NOBODY in Europe consider you part of Europe – you are too simple too primitive to even understand the contempt and total disgust the Europe has for you. Poland is a perfect example of European virtue – respect for law, tolerance, fairness and pursue of hapiness for all citizen. Here in the states NOBODY even talks about russia – Russia is considered just another third world country with ageing nukes that has to be saved every now and then from starvation. By the way there are a lot of russian working in Poland as cleaners, and domestic help – some of them were deported back to Russia but the majority managed to stay illegaly in poland cleaning POLISH toilet. I can help you to find a good paid job as a public toiler cleaner if you wish. Just let me know.

        • My home country is Western Europe, not Russia. We never considered Russia and Poland as a part of our old Europe, but you both play in European football league, so formally you are Europeans — be happy with that. I don’t see any reason why Poland is more “European” than Russia (so you can call Turkey), and I like Russia and tough but fear Russian characters much more than foxy venal Poliaks. Moreover, it is wrong that nobody in Europe consider Russia part of Europe (how you can know this, if you are sub-European yourself and do not belong to the old Europe?) Moreover, Germany and France do consider Russia as a part of big Europe, as well as Poland, but not more. As I said, it was a huge mistake to enlarge EU and involve hyena Poland in it; the biggest troublemaker in the whole EU (hopefully, after the recent air crash, it will be less). Finally, I see the only difference in the toilet business in that Russians clean toilets for Poljaks, while Poljaks do it for us. This, however, does not give you any right to pretend to be “more European” than Russians — you are both still toilet cleaners.

          • Really Amigo, which “Western European” state are you from?

            Were you born there, or are you another slimey little Russian immigrant?

            If you are from the Iberian peninsular, I would suggest you stop and think about how either of your potential homelands there are in real danger of economic collapse, unlike Poland which has weathered the current financial storm better than any other state in Europe.

      • This would be the same Churchill who said that there are few virtues that Poles do not possess and few mistakes that they have not made.

        The same Churchill that described Poland’s greatest misfortune being its geography ie sandwiched between Russia and Germany.

  5. Robert:
    “A man witha rifle” (or rather “witha” pistol) surrendered mostly because in the confusion of the Soviet invasion they were ordered not to fight…”
    —————————-

    Robert, might I ask you to be more specific on that last comment -“they were ordered not to fight” ??? — Not to fight the Soviets or the Germans???
    I need some additional information on this. Give me the name if not the document link. Who gave that order? Stalin, Hitler or “the allies”?

    Let me remind you it took the Germans a couple of weeks to do away with the Polish national state in September 1939. As far as I remember the Polish soldiers considered themselves betrayed by their allies at the time, namely France and the UK on their way to the Katyn. Do they in Poland also need sort of “Excuse me” from both the latter? Not a bad idea in the Polish original logical framework in the connectin of presently non-existing Soviet state shifted on “western democracies” along with modern capitalist Russia. All of them could be easily blamed for the quickest Poland’s defeat in 1939.
    To make a long story short: WHY RUSSIA only?
    Let’s make a list of allies.

    • Because, you retarded Russian fool, Russia invaded Poland in concert with their Nazi allies.

      Really you are an incredible fool.

    • They were ordered not to fight the Soviets

      “When the Soviet Union invaded, Rydz-Śmigły was initially inclined to order the eastern border forces to resist, but was dissuaded by Prime Minister Felicjan Sławoj Składkowski and President Ignacy Mościcki.[1][66] At 4:00 pm on 17 September, Rydz-Śmigły ordered the Polish troops to fall back, stipulating that they only engage Soviet troops in self-defence.[1] However, the German invasion had severely damaged the Polish communication systems, causing command and control issues for the Polish forces.[67] In the resulting confusion, clashes between Polish and Soviet forces occurred along the border.[1][66] General Wilhelm Orlik-Rückemann, who took command of the Border Protection Corps on August 30, received no official directives after his appointment.[5] As a result, he and his subordinates continued to proactively engage the Soviet forces, before dissolving the group on October 1.[5]
      The Polish government refused to surrender or negotiate a peace and instead ordered all units to evacuate Poland and reorganize in France.[1] The day after the Soviet invasion started, the Polish government crossed into Romania. Polish units proceeded to manoeuvre towards the Romanian bridgehead area, sustaining German attacks on one flank and occasionally clashing with Soviet troops on the other. In the days following the evacuation order, the Germans defeated the Polish Kraków and Lublin Armies at the Battle of Tomaszów Lubelski.[68]
      Soviet units often met their German counterparts advancing from the opposite direction. Notable examples of co-operation occurred between the two armies in the field. The Wehrmacht passed the Brest Fortress, which had been seized after the Battle of Brześć Litewski, to the Soviet 29th Tank Brigade on 17 September.[69] German General Heinz Guderian and Soviet Brigadier Semyon Krivoshein then held a joint victory parade in the town.[69] Lwów surrendered on 22 September, days after the Germans handed the siege operations over to the Soviets.[70] Soviet forces had taken Wilno on 19 September after a two-day battle, and they took Grodno on 24 September after a four-day battle. By 28 September, the Red Army had reached the line formed by the Narew, Western Bug, Vistula and San rivers—the border agreed in advance with the Germans.
      Despite a tactical Polish victory on 28 September at the Battle of Szack, the outcome of the larger conflict was never in doubt.[71] Civilian volunteers, militias, and reorganised retreating units held out against German forces in the in the Polish capital, Warsaw, until 28 September, and the Modlin Fortress, north of Warsaw, surrendered the next day after an intense sixteen-day battle. On 1 October, Soviet troops drove Polish units into the forests at the battle of Wytyczno, one of the last direct confrontations of the campaign.[72] Several isolated Polish garrisons managed to hold their positions long after being surrounded, such as those in the Volhynian Sarny Fortified Area which held out until September 25. The last operational unit of the Polish Army to surrender was General Franciszek Kleeberg’s Independent Operational Group Polesie. Kleeberg surrendered on 6 October after the four-day Battle of Kock, effectively ending the September Campaign. On 31 October, Molotov reported to the Supreme Soviet: “A short blow by the German army, and subsequently by the Red Army, was enough for nothing to be left of this ugly creature of the Treaty of Versailles””

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

    • @I need some additional information on this. Give me the name if not the document link. Who gave that order? Stalin, Hitler or “the allies”?

      The order to not fight the Soviets (some units and cities fought anyway) was given by the Marshal of Poland Edward Rydz-Smigly:

      The Soviet Union complied with the terms of a secret protocol to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact Sept. 17 by attacking Poland from the east with six armies numbering 600,000-650,000 soldiers and 5,000 tanks. The official pretext, forwarded to Polish diplomats that night, was the “disintegration of the Polish sate, the flight of the Polish government, and the need to protect the lives and property of ethnic Ukrainians and Belarusians in Poland’s eastern territories, and to free the Polish people from war.”

      The Polish commander-in-chief, Marshal Edward Rydz-Śmigły, ordered his forces not to engage the Soviets. Defeat was slowly but steadily becoming inevitable. President Mościcki left Poland for Romania Sept. 17, together with the government of prime minister Felicjan Sławoj Składkowski.

      The September campaign lasted from Sept. 1 to Oct. 6. Approximately 63,000 enlisted men and 3,300 officers lost their lives and another 133,700 were wounded. Some 400,000 were taken prisoners by the Germans and 230,000 by the Soviets.

      The two aggressors carved up Poland between them.

      http://www.warsawvoice.pl/view/19148

      17 September 1939

      After a note acknowledging the end of the Second Polish Republic is read out to Polish Ambassador in Moscow Wacław Grzybowski the Red Army troops cross the Polish border.

      17 September 1939

      Commander-in-Chief Edward Rydz-Śmigły issues an order for the Polish troops not to resist Soviet forces.

      18 September 1939

      Germany and the USSR issue a joint communiqué on the restoration of “order and people” in Poland and the “transformation of the conditions of her existence.”

      19 September 1939

      In line with the decision of the CPSU CC’s Political Bureau, Kliment Voroshilov takes a decision to transfer all the prisoners of war to the NKVD and, to this end, set up rallying points at the westward Soviet railway stations.

      19 September 1939

      Lavrenty Beria establishes the Board for Prisoners of War and Internees within the NKVD. Eight prisoner of war camps subordinate to him are established, among them at Ostashkov, Yukhnov, Kozelsk, and Starobelsk.

      20 September 1939

      First Polish prisoners of war are transported to the NKVD camp at Kozelsk.

      28 September 1939

      In Moscow, the Soviet-German Boundary and Friendship Treaty is signed along with other secret documents, correcting the borders of zones taken by the occupiers.

      2 October 1939

      CPSU CC’s Political Bureau takes a decision on separating and separate quartering of Polish officers, policemen, and representatives of uniformed services and high-ranking officials of the Second Polish Republic at “special camps.”

      3 October 1939

      CPSU CC’s Political Bureau authorizes the War Councils of the Ukrainian and Belarusian fronts to approve the death sentences passed for the counter-revolutionary activities of the civilians and Polish Army soldiers.

      http://katyncrime.pl/1939,259.html

      @Let me remind you it took the Germans a couple of weeks to do away with the Polish national state in September 1939.

      And let me remind you it took the Germans a couple of weeks to do away with the eastern territories of Poland occupied by the “mighty, great” Soviet Union and defended by their “invincible” Red Army. (Killing, wounding, or capturing MILLIONS of the Soviet soldiers in process.)

  6. That Georgian spicy food makes you over-react over the most trivial things in the world history, Andrew. Cool down, man or the edge is near just like in August 2008. Don’t follow the Mishiko way in this respect and let the Russian bear sleep.

    As I see it they will need no “experts” from the West very, very soon in Georgia. Let the leading star of Kyrgizstan shine on your way out of Georgia, Andrew.

  7. Andrew, Robert –
    I got (partly) your arguments, gentlemen. Thank you for the information presented here. Need some time to think it over at another angle and revise some Soviet postulates regarding the events in September 1939.

    Tough time, tough people. People live, people die at the time not defined by their will.
    The Katyn is a damned place both for Russia and Poland. Proved!
    Time to come over it as soon as possible for a better future. The fact is we will not be able to change geography in the forseeable future no matter how hard we may try. Mexico and Canada will ever board on the US as Poland on Germany and Russia.
    No escape.

    • rts said;

      Time to come over it as soon as possible for a better future. The fact is we will not be able to change geography in the forseeable future no matter how hard we may try. Mexico and Canada will ever board on the US as Poland on Germany and Russia.
      No escape

      comment;

      The fact is we will not be able to change geography in the forseeable future no matter how hard we may try. CHINA will ever board on RUSSIA as Poland on Germany and Russia.
      Russia’s distruction by China is inevitable – NO ESCAPE

  8. I have been listening lately on the media
    reporting the tragedy of the Polish plane
    crash and it is interesting to note , that for the
    most part , especially on NPR whenever there
    is a refference to say , nuclear treaty , or the
    victory over Nazi Germany , or anything that is
    of stature , it is always , Russia . Conversely ,
    if there is a negative conotation to the subject matter , it invariably becomes ” Soviet ” , as in
    the “soviets ” murdered the Polish prisoners .
    This leads to an interresting phenomenon ;
    where do russians become soviets and vice
    versa . One cannot help but feel that the old
    flim flam to confuse the uninformed reader is
    still alive and well . Don’t let the russians
    diffuse the guilt for their atrocities , like the
    Holodomor , the Katyn massacre and millions
    of other victims , by hiding behind the misleading catchall ” soviet ” . Unless they
    face AND admit their guilt and repent , they
    will remain an incomplete , uncivilized society
    on the peripheries of the modern world .

  9. rts, thank you for wearing your bigotry on your sleeve. Now we know enough about you to ignore you as you say unsubstantiated and inflammatory things.

  10. Maksym: —
    “Don’t let the russians
    diffuse the guilt for their atrocities , like the
    Holodomor , the Katyn massacre and millions
    of other victims , by hiding behind the misleading catchall ” soviet ” . Unless they
    face AND admit their guilt and repent , they
    will remain an incomplete , uncivilized society
    on the peripheries of the modern world .”
    ————————–

    The words above sound real great. What might be your thoughts if we charge bad ruskies to compensate in $$$ for each and every crime commited against the dignity of the Polish people since the year 1612. I am not quite sure about the price tags anyway. We need more experts from the US Jewish banks to make the right calculations. Why not after all. It goes well enough with Germany and Switzeland which are being kept on a tight leash under the Kanzler Akte. Yet another proud nation – Ukraine may follow Poland in search of lavish Russian oil money under the pretex of Holodomor or something with their IMF sponsored happy Baltic friends and partners.

    Well, now let me be back to the Katyn to stay in line. What about the Wounded Knee massacre for a balance to mention here about??? The US is a far richer nation to pay for the lost dignities of its stooges and clowns across the pool, isn’t it? Variety is the spice of life. :-)
    Let Russia alone, gentlemen!!!

  11. RTR:
    Ooops,
    “I confused “rts” with “rtr. Rts, could you please change your nick? Even I am confusing yours and mine.”
    ———————————————
    Sorry, I can’t help it. I seem to be loving the last letter (S) in my nick. Let’s split R & T. Is that OK?
    In case you’re confusing (S) and (R) you’d better go to the doctor and make a solid inspection of your vision on both eyes.

  12. Yes, let’s not remind Russia of the enormous debt it owes to eastern Europe for pogroms, wars, starvation, rapes, exiles, gulags and cultural eradication.
    rts, grow up!

  13. Osumashi something:
    “Yes, let’s not remind Russia of the enormous debt it owes to eastern Europe for pogroms, wars, starvation, rapes, exiles, gulags and cultural eradication.
    rts, grow up!”
    ——————————

    I still need the numbers of compensation/donation or charity money from Russia or what you call it for:
    1) pogroms
    2)wars
    3)starvation
    4) rapes
    5)exiles
    6) gulags
    7) cultural eradication

    Let’s make a list of all those “culturally eradicated” countries and actual $$$ numbers indicated and send it to Mr.Putin the Bad the first thing in the morning to spoil his black caviar breakfast. What might be his reaction to the stuff like this I wonder? Largely remains to be an interesting question. Russia has got oil money but we remeber all its sins. Something must be done about all this situation. The Baltic states already mean serious business with Russia in this respect to pay off their debt to the Scandinavian banks for 5 years of “eternal prosperity” based on fiat EU money if my memory serves me right. Time to make a mooove!
    In the second line we could also expect German, Italian, Romanian, Hungarian and Spanish veteran soldiers seeking Russia to compensate for their unthinkable sufferings at Stalingrad and Kursk in 1941-1945. And never forget about millions of tons of “civilised” European bones piled up and still peacfully resting in the uncivilized Russian mud.
    We’ll rip them off with to the bones with the US Air Force on our side. May be a very prospective business with Russia for centuries to come. Bad ruskies, you must pay to the last barrel of your oil in the name of EU humanity.

  14. I will merely repost my pithy pontification, which is highly relevant to this article:

    It is very interesting, and quite perplexing at the same time, that we do not see or hear the Japanese demanding an apology from the US for their 200,000 dead in the atomic bombings, all civilians of course, and we certainly don’t hear any Vietnamese, Laotians, or Cambodians demanding an apology from the US for their 3-4 million dead during the years 1962-1975.

    We don’t hear the Panamanians demanding an apology for their 3,000 dead during Bush Sr.’s invasion of their country in 1989.

    We don’t hear the people of Central America demanding that Nancy Reagan fly to Nicaragua to apologize to the victims of Reaganite terrorist violence imposed on that part of the world in the 1980s.

    We don’t see any US president laying wreaths or paying homage to the Museum of American War crimes in Ho Chi Minh city, and we certainly don’t hear any US politician acknowledging any of the above listed crimes.

    But a sincere apology is (of course, rightfully) demanded for 20,000 executed prisoners during a time in European history when both sides, Nazi and Soviet, committed atrocities, with the former on a much higher level of guilt in terms of human deaths and terror.

    After the US shot down an Iranian airliner in 1988, killing 290 civilians, Bush I famously stated:

    “I’ll never apologize for the United States. Ever. I don’t care what the facts are.”

    His successors have been 100% consistent, and so have his predecessors.

    Is it any wonder why American officials lack even the pretense of conscience?

  15. Dima:
    “After the US shot down an Iranian airliner in 1988, killing 290 civilians, Bush I famously stated: “I’ll never apologize for the United States. Ever. I don’t care what the facts are.”
    ——————————–

    Let’s call a spade a spade, Dima –
    It’s quite normal for a nazi nation like the US. I see it as a satanic, parasit, corporate monster state whose based on the Federal Reserve fiat money printing press. Nazi mentality is deeply rooted in their mentality of all walks of life in their parts. What boggles me most of all is their ignorance about the rest of the world. They make little difference if any between Swaziland and Switzerland, Slovakia and Slovenia, Australia and Austria (remember G.W. Bush revealation in Brisbane?). :-)
    Can’t resist the temptation to make a mockery of them each time they cross my way. Some say it’s a sin, I think it’s a fun.

    • So what about Russia shooting down the Korean airliner in 1983?

      The Russian general gave orders to destroy it regardless of whether it was civilian or not.

      The Russian pilot identified it as an airliner and proceeded to shoot it down anyway in accordance with his orders.

      Russia deliberately killed 269 civilians for no good reason.

      A big difference between this deliberate act of cold blooded murder of civilians, and the tragic destruction Iranian airliner that was never visually identified, and was (stupidly) shot down by the US Navy crew, though to be fair they had recently been engaged in a fight with Iranian gunboats.

  16. Andrew :
    “So what about Russia shooting down the Korean airliner in 1983?”
    —————————–

    Yes, OK. I got your message but not its inner logic, man.
    The problem is – the Korean airliner in 1983 was shot down over Russian national territory (restricted access area).
    The Iranian Boing was shot down over the strait of Ormuz in 10.000 miles from the US national territory which makes me think quite the opposite – that was a deliberate act of cold blooded murder of civilians of another nation (let me repeat myself) in 10.000 miles from the USA.
    I wonder what could be the reaction of the US in case American airliner with 300 on board were shot down by the Iranians over the Gulf of Mexico ” never visually identified”???
    The year of 1983 was an interesting year in the respect of US military and CIA initiated provocations against Russia from the Crimea/Yalta to the Kuril islands/Kamchatka region and over the Sea of Japan.

    I ever say primitive American propaganda is some sort of ideological sadism for an intellegent person with a clear vision of the modern world.

  17. Andrew, rts is a troll and a lackey. Facts and decency are too much for him.

  18. Dima, Osumashi Kinyobe is a troll and a moron. Facts and decency are too much for him.

  19. RTR
    Osoomashi something

    Both of you are right, guys. We all lack decency these days.

  20. Wow, you can’t even get your gender right.
    Again, you two have proven your idiocy.
    I’m going to luxuriate in a bath of my complete rightness and you two…well… who cares what you two do. You are both trolls with no interest in relevant or intelligent discussion. The thing is people will remember you two (albeit briefly) as useful idiots with as much with as Cheech and Chong.
    So long, trolls.
    Do clean up after yourselves before you leave.

  21. With regards to the persistent Russian claim that Katyn was revenge for the ‘murder’ of 20000 Russian pows during the Polish-Soviet War, something that Putin repeated. This is a canard as well he knows.

    In 2004 a Russian government sanctioned a commission, comprising of a joint working group of Polish and Russian historians who examined all available archives, records and evidence available to them.

    The conclusion is that these Russian/Bolshevik soldiers, like 20000 Polish prisoners that died in Soviet POW camps during the Polish-Soviet War at the same time, died as a result of malnutrition and epidemics. The region had been ravaged by WW1 and shrtage of food and epidemics were also affecting the civilian population of Eastern Europe simultaneously.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_for_Russian_prisoners_and_internees_in_Poland_(1919%E2%80%931924)

    So in other words what have here is a disengenious Russian attempt (the deliberate ‘politicisation’ of history to coin a favourite Kremlin phrase) to deflect and diminish the nature of the war crime of Katyn by misrepresenting one historical event to explain and justify another.

    On the one hand we have the death of 20000 Russian and 20000 Polish pows who perished in POW camps during the Polish-Soviet War that in both cases was unintentional.

    On the other hand we have the deliberate murder of 22,000 Polish officers at Katyn as summary execution.

    But I guess when you have lied about Katyn for 47 years it is hard to break the habit of lying about everything else to justify it rather than acknowledge the truth.

    It’s a similar kindof rhetoric and tactic employed by Holocaust deniers ie the use of a combination of contextualisation, half-truths and outright lies to deny the facts and truth of historical events.

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