Two victims of the Monday terrorist bombing of the Moscow subway, courtesy of the Moscow Times and the brilliant Chechnya policy of Vladimir Putin
WEDNESDAY MARCH 31 CONTENTS
(1) EDITORIAL: The end of the Russian Internet
(2) EDITORIAL: Unwanted “Russians” head “Home”
(3) EDITORIAL: A Tale of Two Russian Oligarchs
(4) Won’t you Help Russians get some Toilet Paper?
(5) Bloggers Document Russian electoral Fraud
NOTE: Another major attack on Russian civilians by the Caucasus rebels has occurred in Moscow, with two separate subway stations bombed and three dozen dead. So much for Putin’s policies! Over on Pajamas Media, LR publisher and founder Kim Zigfeld has the rundown. Countries that send their athletes to Sochi in 2014 in the wake of this madness are guilty of homicide if and when those athletes are caught up in similar violence, pure and simple. Of special note is that this column is Kim’s 50th installment at Pajamas. Congrats, KZ!
La Russophobe 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8592190.stm
“At least 37 people are reported to have been killed in two explosions on the Metro system in central Moscow.”
“An emergencies ministry spokeswoman said that at Lubyanka 14 people were killed in the train and 11 on the platform. The headquarters of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB), is located just above the station.”
@The headquarters of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB), is located just above the station.
So maybe they did not go anywhere far away to plant a bomb this time.
Maybe. It’s Russia so who knows.
If Afghans or Iraqis set off bombs in the New York or Washington, D.C. subway systems, would you write “Brought to you by to you courtesy of Bush’s policies”?
She will blame Obama.
Hey Kim
you know why is the blogsochi.ru suspended.? work of Kreml or just unpaid bill.
LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:
Haven’t heard a thing.
Prague Watchdog was also 404 for a while today.
kremlin journalists who won’t report honestly on chechnya, on kadyrov and on putin’s policy–they’re to blame.
they’re prostitutes—they tell fairy tales about stability and peace in chechnya—and they betray their own people.
enjoy your gucci and vacations in france, kremlin whores—-but you’re betraying your own people.
I think it was Alex who made fun of my comments in a precious post regarding my wife being caught in a bomb blast in the Moscow Metro years ago (Belorusskaya).
There is no justification for these actions regardless of where they happen. Even in Russia.
And no matter how it gets spun it wasn’t the Kremlin, not that I have any respect for those evil bastards. They just knew someone would do their dirty work for them.
Expect more attack leading up to May 9th.
TRex, I did not want to offend you in any way. It’s just what you wrote looked like you think that terrorist acts happen everywhere, so “so what?” attitude. You know, study Russia better. Firstly, Russia has more terror acts than anywhere. Secondly, FSB is very often behind them and not islamists. Remember – in Russia terror is organised by the state in most of the cases. Look at 20th century history. History of NKVD, Cheka, KGB. Learn more. In USA your wife risks her life much less because of these details. This difference is very important. When you have real CIA and Police in US or MI5 in UK it’s not like FSB. FSB is itself terrorist organisation. It may well be behind these blasts as well. If you think I’m too russophobe, please read more books. Research it, you will see yourself. (Of course if you’re paid by Kremlin, you won’t see anyhting.)
I feel that bombing Moscali is justified as they continue assassinations abroad, and at home their FSB are killing innocent high minded citizens trying to protect human rights.
Putin is popular, and Stalin is being rehabilitated. Might as well let Rashans be on hand to “benefit” what they are doing in the Caucuses. Seeing is believing. Rubbing their noses in it, even better.
Obama sent his regrets, but did he condemn the invasion of Georgia when it happened?
Much of the international press blamed the Georgians for retaliating, when the Mascals poured in through the tunnel into Georgia after shelling Georgian Villages. Just hiding Western inaction and disgrace for doing nothing.
Chechnya gets hammered everyday. I want the filthy Mascals to finally bleed, like everyone of their neighbors did, when over run by the filthy hoards of Vodka drinking savoks.
It is still not enough to make Russian animals understand what pain, they are causing. If Mascals want to live like that they should stay within their own borders. But there would be no survival if there was only predators left.
I salute these poor women that killed themselves. Probably young widows with nothing left to live for. RaSSiya will go down badly!
Well, this camp-born lice shows its true face. Really, you cannot sink below this level.
It may well be organised by FSB itself, dude.
Sure, and 9-11 was an inside job.
Nope. Big difference. Russia, US. I’m sure you want your children to live in US, not Russia, AT, stop pretending, you’re not so stupid…
I do want my children to live in the US on account of the position I have in this country, as well as on account of this country’s level of development. I would rather live and have my children to live in Russia rather than in any other ex-USSR country or Romania, or Bulgaria, or Brazil or — God forbid India.
As far as “this was organized by FSB” is concerned, I think this shows how stupid you are.
Except I don’t remember the US police caught any FBI agents trying to hijack an ariplane on this day and this to be later explained as “an exercise”.
Not quite sure what this proves. You obviously do not buy the “exercise” explanation. I know quite a few people who do not buy the official explanation for 9-11 either.
And someone claims any part of the events of 9-11 was “just an exercise”? To have an equivalent of ryazan incident, actual FBI agents failing to hijack a plane on September 11, with what was later claimed to be “fake knives” despite everyone saying at first everything about this was very real?
No, but plenty of people say its a government job and develop websites full of arguments and proof.
We’re not talking about “websites full of arguments and proof”, we’re talking about the FSB agents from Moscow actually caught red-handed while planting a bomb in an apartment building, a bomb which was declared to be “fake” only later.
Also the US government also just has no history of bombing other apartment building full of US civilians, on the US soil, in the years both before and after 9/11. But there are plenty of such building in Grozny, including some where there are still human remains even today:
I’m not talking about “websites full of arguments”. I’m talking about mass graves and forgotten shelters full of thousands of skeletons (officially thousands of people are still “missing”).
So, “did the Russian government bomb apartment blocks” is only a rhetorical question:
Well Georg you have let the vitriol roll.
Why don’t you go an join these women you salute if you feel that strongly?
Yes Bob, it would be indeed unfortunate, for yet another one of the few “Remaining Humans” apart from the hoard, to be hurt, under the FSB headquarters itself.
I have compassion for Caucasian victims, especially that sent this message, and are now finally getting some Justice. But at the cost of their own lives. Moscow messed around with so many that it is now them.
Freedom Fighters have nothing left to live for, since Rashan Animals took it all. Their love and families, that usually wind up tortured and killed by Mascal Drunken Savoks, and their underlings. They call these unfortunate women “Black Widows”. They at least kept their dignity and I must say honor.
Nobody in the neighberhood cares about the population of Sheep Testicled Mascali, that worship Putin and Stalin’s handi-work.
Mascali in power in someone Else’s country do whatever, and then lie about it boldly. Nothing new. We see plenty of lying Neo Bolshevik Savok Liars on LR.
I truly feel the pain that brought these freedom fighters to send this final message.. That it is not OK to trash someone Else’s country, and then enjoy a ride home on the Metro.
Obama did send his regrets did he not, for what that was worth. Mascali murdered millions, now expecting sympathy, from whom?
Maybe the Metro Riders, should pressure their government to get the hell out of Georgia, Chechnya, and stop screwing with Ukraine and the Baltic’s countries which are threatened everyday.
I honestly feel so sorry for you. You are possibly the most hate-filled and despicable human being I have ever “met”, filled with such a deep contempt for Russian ( and Slav) peoples, that you give Hitler a good run for his money.
Despite your provocative words, it is difficult to feel contempt for you. The mere fact that you are glad to see innocent Russians and possibly foreigners killed in a cowardly bombing ( that’s right, blowing yourself up takes far less guts than standing up and building a country peacefully), says a lot about your immaturity ( back in the day I was just as angry as you).
Beside this, it is difficult to imagine how much brainwashing, in one form or another, you have had to endure in order to say such things. Honestly, people like Hitler and Stalin gave speeches that are less horrifying than what you have said.
One day, you will wake up, get out of bed. and realise what a raging dickhead you have been for the past months ( years?) in which you have posted this drivel on websites. Once again, my deepest condolences.
Actually Mark, he is a Slav, just a Ukrainian one.
Unfortunately idiots such as yourself will never understand the immense suffering of those who have experienced Russian occupation, mass murder, and in many cases Genocide.
That being said, I am sorry for any innocent victims of this attack, but Russian state policies are to blame, pure and simple.
Andrew, you immediately presume that I don’t come from a country which has endured an incredible amount of hardship and genocide. This is very insulting to me. Don’t let my name fool you; I’m not from the western world.
You assert that I can never understand this feeling of oppression, well I would argue that this simply isn’t the case. I suffered just as much as anyone under the Sovet rule; many of my friends and some distant relatives back in the day were extradited to Siberia by the KGB. My mother’s side of the family refused to enter the Komsomol, and I can’t tell you how hard life was back then.
I seriously doubt that you have lived in these conditions; anybody who has suffered this much would see today that Russia’s “fascist” policies seem pale and insignificant in comparison.
If you really are a genocide victim, then I’m truly sorry. It’s just the factual and at the same time casual way you speak about this matter leads me to believe that you really don’t have a clue what you are talking about.
There is no justification for what Georg said – he is an extremist, and extremists are responsible for the terror attacks today.
Well, if Georg’s logic applied, the whole world would be a bloody vendetta. Thank God, most people see he is deranged.
That’s extremism for you.
To be fair, something must’ve driven him to say such things.
Well, he must have been traumatized by his childhood post-war experience. He appears to be a 60+ year old loner for whom this blog is a rare opportunity to vent the hate he bottles up.
@AT,
Your another piece of garbage that says things that you know nothing about. Maybe like Mark you will make up another hard luck story and say in Moscow things were bad too. Now you have less humans to feed off of. So things will get harder.
Your Attitude betrays your politics. ONLY DUMB MOSCALI still worship Stalin. No other country, not even Georgia where he came from. Not Ukrainians, Poles, Serbs etc. Nobody reveres Stalin, and you Kremlin Serving Scumbags do.
This love for Stalin indicates aggravation and the degradation of the country’s political system, which is unable to contact society. Also, it shows the first increase in the passiveness of the Rashan society, by an infantile desire for paternalism.
Ha? I am a Stalin-worshiper now? You are unstable. Go take a swim with your imaginary wife.
Georg, who are you really? I’m genuinely interested. What could possibly drive you to say such things?
You can keep on insulting me, my name and my nation. And maybe you can convince yourself that you are right.
However, whatever could’ve happened to you and your family, you should deal with it and move on.
I really am not interested whether or not you believe my story. It’s your human right not to believe. I have lost loved ones and relatives at the hands of the KGB, but I don’t go on angry rants on message boards, do I?
I try to keep calm and collected, and consider both sides of the story. That’s what a free-thinking and responsible human being should do. If people did this on this message board, then we could have a normal civil debate, instead of having people throw around quotes and racial slurs.
Don’t presume I love Stalin and I lived in Moscow. For reasons I mentioned above, it would be despicable of me to love Stalin after what happened, and life in the Ural mountains during Soviet rule is something which I would never wish for anyone to experience.
I did not suffer from Genocide, but many of my wife’s relatives were murdered in Abkhazia during the early 90’s.
I agree with you that attacking civilians such as the Moscow metro bombings is a terrible thing, but remember 2008 when Russian troops burnt and destroyed entire Georgian villages, dropped cluster bombs on civilian targets etc, and comitted ethnic cleansing against the native population of 2 regions of Georgia, Khodori gorge and South Ossetia/Shvida Kartli
I do not remember such a thing, because I wasn’t there.
Quite honestly, I don’t really know what to make of the Georgian conflict. Here in the Western world, the media was reporting on how Russian troops were shelling Georgian villages, then they talked about EU commissions which found Georgia guilty of war crimes. I am keen to study the politics of the region, considering both sides of the argument, and make up my own mind on the matter.
Why do you mention these attacks on Georgians in your comment? Did I attempt to justify them?
Innocent people died there, and innocent people died in Moscow a few days ago. There could possibly be a correlation between the two events, I don’t know. No one really knows. But I do know that the people who have died in these atrocities must be remembered, something that is very rare in today’s world. People remember the background and consequences of these acts, they argue for days about who was responsible, but forget about the real victims of the crimes.
Actually, the OSCE comission the IFFC found that Georgia “over reacted” to “years of provocations” by “Russia and Russian backed separatists” and “should have shown more restraint”
However, the IFFC also stated that Russia was guilty of far more serious war crimes, and that all actions taken by Russia were illegal.
I don’t forget about the victims of these crimes committed by Russia, they happened to my friends, relatives by marriage, and to my neighbors.
Yes, I have done a little reading ( mainly on wikipedia) and found that according to the EU independent fact finding mission report:
“the use of force by Georgia against Russian peacekeeping forces in Tskhinvali in the night of 7/8 August 2008 was contrary to international law”. The report said that “if the Russian peacekeepers were attacked,” then “the immediate [Russian] reaction in defense of Russian peacekeepers” was justified, as “Russia had the right to defend her peacekeepers, using military means proportionate to the attack” (the report did not have facts to substantiate the claimed attack on the peacekeepers, but found it “likely” that Russian PKF casualties occurred). The later, second, part of Russian actions, is characterised as “the invasion of Georgia by Russian armed forces reaching far beyond the administrative boundary of South Ossetia”, and is considered to be “beyond the reasonable limits of defence”. With respect to the war’s second theater, the report found the Abkhaz/Russian attack on the Kodori Gorge was not justified under international law.”
I guess both sides were at fault here. Russia, though, should know better than to be provoked.
@Yes, I have done a little reading ( mainly on wikipedia) and found that according to the EU independent fact finding mission report:
Maybe you do a little reading on the EU independent fact finding mission report.
The report rules absolutely against Georgia on one count only: that its inital assault on South Ossetia was not in accordance with international law. It states: ’There is the question of whether the use of force by Georgia in South Ossetia, beginning with the shelling of Tskhinvali during the night of 7/8 August 2008, was justifiable under international law. It was not.’ The report goes on to state that the Georgian assault was not proportionate to the requirements of a defensive operation, while South Ossetia’s actions to repel this attack were in accordance with international law. After that, the report rules against Russia on almost every count. To sum up:
1) The report acknowledges the massive and sustained provocations to which Georgia had been subjected by Russia in the period preceding the conflict. Among these, ‘The mass conferral of Russian citizenship to Georgian nationals and the provision of passports on a massive scale on Georgian territory, including its breakaway provinces, without the consent of the Georgian Government runs against the principles of good neighbourliness and constitutes an open challenge to Georgian sovereignty and an interference in the internal affairs of Georgia’ (p. 18). Furthermore, ‘The decision by the Russian Federation to withdraw the 1996 CIS restrictions on Abkhazia (March 2008) and to authorise direct relations with the Abkhaz and South Ossetian sides in a number of fields (April 2008), added another dimension to an already complex situation in the area’ (p. 31).
2) The report acknowledges that the Georgian offensive did not come out of the blue, but in the context of escalating military preparations and activities by both sides over the preceding months, involving exchanges of fire and explosions on both sides of the front lines, so that the ‘ever-mounting tensions in the conflict zone were approaching the level of open military confrontation’ and ‘the stage seemed all set for a military conflict’ (pp. 18-19).
3) The report states that although ‘[t]he Mission is not in a position to consider as sufficiently substantiated the Georgian claim concerning a large-scale Russian military incursion into South Ossetia before 8 August 2008′, nevertheless it does not reject the claim; on the contrary, it lists several pieces of evidence that lend weight to Georgia’s accusations of a preparatory Russian military build-up prior to the war, including ‘the provision by the Russian side of training and military equipment to South Ossetian and Abkhaz forces prior to the August 2008 conflict’; ‘an influx of volunteers or mercenaries from the territory of the Russian Federation to South Ossetia through the Roki tunnel and over the Caucasus range in early August, as well as the presence of some Russian forces in South Ossetia, other than the Russian JPKF battalion, prior to 14.30 hours on 8 August 2008′; and the fact that ‘it seems that the Russian air force started its operations against Georgian targets, including those outside South Ossetian military boundaries, already in the morning of 8 August, i.e. prior to the time given in the Russian official information’ (p. 20).
4) The Report rejects Moscow’s claim that it was waging a defensive or legal war in Georgia. It notes that ‘much of the Russian action went far beyond the reasonable limits of defence’; that Russia’s actions ‘cannot be regarded as even remotely commensurate with the threat to Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia’; that Russia’s ‘continued destruction that came after the ceasefire agreement was not justifiable by any means’; and that ‘the Russian military action outside South Ossetia was essentially conducted in violation of international law’. It therefore concludes that ‘insofar as such extended Russian military action reaching out into Georgia was conducted in violation of international law, Georgian military forces were acting in legitimate self-defence under article 51 of the UN Charter.’ Consequently, ‘In a matter of a very few days, the pattern of legitimate and illegitimate miliary action had thus turned around between the two main actors Georgia and Russia’. The report notes in addition that the second front against Georgia opened by the Russians and Abkhazians in Abkhazia was ‘not justified under international law’ (pp. 23-25).
5) The Report rejects any possible justification of the Russian intervention in Georgia on humanitarian grounds, both because ‘Russia in particular has consistently and persistently objected to any justification of the NATO Kosovo intervention on humanitarian grounds’ and ‘can therefore not rely on this putative title to justify its own intervention on Georgian territory’, and because ‘as a directly neighbouring state, Russia has important political and other interests of its own in South Ossetia and the region. In such a constellation, a humanitarian intervention is not recognised at all’ (p. 24).
6) The report categorically rejects Russian claims that Georgia committed genocide against South Ossetian civilians: ‘After having carefully reviewed the facts in the light of the relevant law, the Mission concludes that to the best of its knowledge allegations of genocide committed by the Georgian side in the context of the August 2008 conflict and its aftermath are neither founded in law nor substantiated by factual evidence’ (pp. 26-27). It notes that the total number of South Ossetian civilian casualties in the whole of the August 2008 conflict was only 162, not the two thousand initially claimed by Moscow (p. 21).
7) Conversely, the Report attributed the worst and most systematic atrocities to the South Ossetian side: ‘With regard to allegations of ethnic cleansing committed by South Ossetian forces or irregular armed groups, however, the Mission found patterns of forced displacements of ethnic Georgians who had remained in their homes after the onset of hostilities. In addition, there was evidence of systematic looting and destruction of ethnic Georgian villages in South Ossetia. Consequently, several elements suggest the conclusion that ethnic cleansing was indeed practiced against ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia both during and after the August 2008 conflict’ (p. 27).
8 ) Finally, the Report condemns Russia’s recognition of the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as contrary to international law: ‘South Ossetia did not have a right to secede from Georgia, and the same holds true for Abkhazia for much of the same reasons. Recognition of breakaway entities such as Abkhazia and South Ossetia by a third country is consequently contrary to international law in terms of an unlawful interference in the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the affected country, which is Georgia’ (p. 17).
Far from blaming the Georgian side for the conflict, the Report ends with a conclusion that most reasonable friends of Georgia could readily endorse: ‘This report shows that any explanation of the origins of the conflict cannot focus solely on the artillery attack on Tskhinvali in the night of 7/8 August and on what then developed into the questionable Georgian offensive in South Ossetia and the Russian military action. The evaluation also has to cover the run-up to the war during the years before and the mounting tensions in the months and weeks immediately preceding the outbreak of hostilities. It must also take into account years of provocations, mutual accusations, military and political threats and acts of violence both inside and outside the conflict zone. It has to consider, too, the impact of a great power’s coercive politics and diplomacy against a small and insubordinate neighbour, together with the small neighbour’s penchant for overplaying its hand and acting in the heat of the moment without careful consideration of the final outcome, not to mention its fear that it might permanently lose important parts of its territory through creeping annexation’ (p. 31).
To sum up: the Report rules against Russia on every ground except one. Although it acknowledges the illegality of the Georgian assault on Tskhinvali, it describes this assault not as gratuitous or unprovoked, but as having occurred in the context of a long period of sustained military and diplomatic provocations on the part of Russia, a great power, against its small neighbour, whose fears about permanent territorial loss were very real. The Report rejects Moscow’s claim that it acted for humanitarian reasons; that it acted to stop genocide; or that its action was in accordance with international law. On the contrary, it explicitly condemns Russia’s military actions as illegal under international law, and acknowledges the legality of Georgia’s attempts to defend itself from Russian invasion. The Report attributes by far the worst atrocities to the South Ossetian side, and endorses Georgian accusations of South Ossetian ethnic cleansing. It meanwhile rejects the massively exaggerated Russian claims of Georgian atrocities.
Thanks Robert, an excellent post.
Andrew,
It’s from this blog:
http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/
I’d recommend it for everyone.
They are not our Russian Mafia anymore. They are our Russian-American Mafia now.
Oy, and you still live with your mom! At 60+ years old??????
AT,
The FBI had these bastards extradited. The Authorities in Lviv Ukraine were happy to give these Rashan Pigs to the Americans. We like to see justice done to Rashans, even if they killed their own people, but not their kind.
I feel very bad about the killing of my neighbor and feel I should have gotten to know him more closely, maybe this would not have happened.
My mother passed away but was living with me the last few years. My wife and I still speak kindly of her memory.
Your imaginary wife… with whom you swim at 1 am in New Jersey in March…
By the way, by what criterion you count Mr. Gozman as a Mascal pig? Or your hatred of Russians is not ethnically based? I suspect the Brooklyn Mafia would be much offended if you called them Russians or Mascals.
Natan Gozman, a 22-year-old Russian and alleged mobster, is wanted for the 1995 kidnapping and murder of Sergei Kobozev, the United States Boxing Association’s Cruiserweight champion. Authorities believe Gozman, along with Alexander Nosov, killed Sergei so they could impress the leaders of the Russian crime organization, “Bravata.” The duo was seeking revenge after Kobozev threw them out of a Brooklyn nightclub where the boxer moonlighted as a bouncer.
About a week later, Gozman and Nosov coincidentally ran into Sergei at an auto repair shop in Brooklyn. There, authorities say Sergei was shot and thrown into the trunk of a car. Then, according to officials, Sergei was driven to Livingston, New Jersey where another mobster broke his neck, buring his body in the backyard of a high-ranking Bratva official. According to officials, an informant led them to a location in New Jersey, where federal officials found human remains. Through dental records, the remains were identified as Sergei Kobozev. Alexander Nosov has since arrested, but Gozman is still on the run.
http://www.sex-offenders.info/detail.php?id=24862
(they arrested him in Poland)
So? Brighton Beach is commonly referred to a Russian neigborhood. Ask Rabinovich, the guy who posts here frequently — he must be called Russian quite often.
Most “Russians” in Brighton Beach are from Odessa and other Ukrainian cities.
LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:
We don’t allow unsourced controversial factual claims. Please stop violating our rules and show more respect for this blog, your host.
How is it possible for one to have an unsourced factual claim??
Anyway, RTR is right once again, here’s the proof:
“Brighton Beach was dubbed “Little Odessa” by the local populace long ago, due to many of its residents having come from Odessa, a city of Ukraine.[4] In 2006, Alec Brook-Krasny was elected for the 46th District of the New York State Assembly, the first elected Soviet-born Jewish politician from Brighton Beach.”
Direct from Wikipedia.
Of course. Everybody not only in New York but all over the World knows that Brighton Beach is Little Odessa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa
The majority of Odessa’s Jews emigrated to Israel, the United States and other Western countries between the 1970s and 1990s. Many ended up in the Brooklyn neighborhood of Brighton Beach, sometimes known as “Little Odessa”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_Beach
Brighton Beach was dubbed “Little Odessa” by the local populace long ago, due to many of its residents having come from Odessa, a city of Ukraine.[4]
What is telling here is that LR bawls at me for saying universally known truths, while when you asked Robert for references for his unsubstantiated lies, she bawled at you:
“LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS
Careful, you baboon. He’s very good with sources, and contributes FAR more added value to this blog than Y-O-U do. Back off.“
I am not surprised by her reaction. However, the fact is that it’s her blog, and she can write what she likes. What is more serious is when she begins to delete people’s comments when they inconveniently point of that she is wrong.
Oh, better get back to the topic at hand or I will be censored too. I swear, commenting on this blog is like living in an anti-Russian police state.
Typical Lowlife now complaining about our host LaRussophobe, while spewing lies. Now once more you offend our host.
I remember that you would be banned for suggestions on the blog, and were told to use e-mail. I guess you really did it this time, I mean peeing on LR’s carpet.
@Mark “I swear, commenting on this blog is like living in an anti-Russian police state”
You got that part wrong it should read “Russian Police State”. Where you, Mark belong.
Nice. Georg too finally shows his face.
And speaking from a literary point of view, it is an unpleasant face to look at, too.
Lowlife? You can call me that all you like, but insulting people on the internet is idiotic, and warrants for people to be banned, according to Russophobe’s own rules.
You should be glad that she gives you so much leeway.
You write like an angry kid. No substance behind your words, and no concrete points to be made. By all means, you can post what you like here and never, ever be banned.
If you say things like ” terrorist bombings are justified” in real life, then you will not get very far in life, I guarantee you.
I live in a democratic, free country. You, most likely, live in a police state, and judging from your words, you are envious of my position.
Instead of writing things on blogs, improve yourself first. Live in Russia for a bit, then move to Western Europe. Compare the two, and only then post on this blog. Otherwise, your comments are without basis.
@Mark, Biting the hand again, and this is not unusual for your type of a cur dog, loosing his fight. I have seen such a dog turn on its owner, when it got beat by another dog in a fight, that the cur started, that is you Mark. Your again showing lack of respect for the work of our Patroness, Kim Ziegfeld, whom has shown remarkable tolerance for your particular acute idiocy.
As for myself, I just love the links and format that is provided here. Just use those resources and articles for advanced study. I do not email or correspond with anyone here on this site, so no conspiracy as you @Mark often suggested. I have gone to the sources, on a lot of content and am satisfied that this is as good as it gets.
Some superb posters have given me new insight. (not you Mark). This confirmed that never have my own parents ever given me bad information. They told me as it was, and I never found anything online yet, showing I was not told the truth.
So there you have it, Mark. You can just go on being a lying idiot, that has no respect from others. Or, you can own up, and be try being honest.
Mark, A, AT, RTR are the ones hiding things, since your terrorists are freedom fighters living in that common hell hole called Russia.
If Russians want to bomb each other, far be it for me to complain, and lecture them, about blasting themselves to hell. You @Mark et all, are the ones that should live in Rasha, since you find so much fault with the USA.
Doing this you would get you respect, but only if you owned up, how you got this way. Probably your not able to do so, without risk from your other Nashi Butt Buddies.
@Mark, “Instead of writing things on blogs, improve yourself first. Live in Russia for a bit, then move to Western Europe. Compare the two, and only then post on this blog. Otherwise, your comments are without basis.”
I lived in Germany for more than 7 years. I had 2 years of Moscal/Russian language in college as well as a more civilized language. I took a class in comparative slavic literature to understand the culture.
My well to do parents lost everything, when the Rashan Commie Menace arrived, it took over 50 years for only some of my family to reunite. They worried about the family left behind constantly. They were afraid to send mail, just to protect them from the inquisition of the KGB.
Mother told me about spending 2 weeks burying the students that your filthy mangy Moscal NKVD slaughtered before the Germans arrived in Lviv.
Even My Grandmother witnessed Bolshevik killings. My grandfather was sent to Siberia but came back.
One of my mothers collegues got a letter to report to the KGB office, and went there thinking that she didn’t do anything wrong, was never heard from again.
The Nazis raped and killed another of mom’s classmates, who was very beautiful.
My father was almost arrested by Nazis for the sloppy paperwork of his business. Actually he gave food to people who really needed it. Nazis threatened to throw a hand grenade into their basement.
The Nazis found my mothers diplomas from Moscow University and walked all over them with their jackboots wet from the rain. I still have the papers with the mud stained, Swastikas still imprinted on them. I should post them online.
Guys, Georg is just trolling. His posts have no relevance to the blog’s posts and his factual and logical fallacies appear to be intentional and aimed at provoking meaningless discussions. Such phenomenon exists on other blogs as well. By trying to “expose” him, people just get more and more involved in lengthy pointless discussions. I am not sure anymore if he is here to disrupt the LR’s blog or to generate traffic for it.
This is not simply about Georg lying. Georg is clearly Alexander Spitchenko’s neighbor and probably friend. Spitchenko is a ruthless mafia boss who was directly involved in the murder of Kobozev. Georg’s lie that Kobozev was also Georg and Spitchenko’s neighbor indicates to me that Georg was involved in this affair more than he admits.
@ while when you asked Robert for references for his unsubstantiated lies
What?
Okay, I laughed.
“Okay, I laughed.”
You did? Thanks for sharing. Good for you. There’s a first time for everything.
Actually RTR, you should be used to everybody laughing at you by now I would have thought…..
You want to hear about laughs?
One day my mother went into the NKVD office because she was in trouble, for refusing the honor of Leading the Commie Student parade as Top Student in her High School. Instead a Young Jewish girl got the honor.
The Mascal she talked to at the time called himself the “Bez Partiyni Komuneesst”. That is a Communist without a party. He said that he entirely understood my mothers position for not parading as a communist. Since he had no party affiliation himself, and he to was also somehow better, and more fair than the other kind of Party Commie.
Anyway the screwball Komrade Lidder told my mother that “everything would be OK, and he would take care of things as he was not a member of any party himself as well”.
In reality he just added my mother to his list of people to murder, when he could not make his quota.
At same time there was a Jewish man that was dragged into the office, to account for some some sort petty stuff that my mother forgot.
The Jew, created quite a ruckus since the Commies decided to shoot him. He was pleading like crazy, when the Mascals started laughing at him. He carried on this thing even longer, while the Komrads gathered around laughing at his antics in trying to save himself.
He continued to be even more tragic comedic, and started to ridicule himself as a Jew. Nobody could not laugh as he got more into the act. My mother said that she never again seen a comic equal to him.
The Komrads laughed so hard they even began to cry and some said their bellies hurt from laughing so hard at this Jew. “It was decided to let him live, so that the Komrads could bring him in again for a return engagement, when things slow down again and they get bored of killing people.
My mother told me after that, this man just booked out of Lviv fast, and that she never seen him anymore. Probably a famous comic, who knows.
“Mayor Koch of NYC one day said on TV that since he came from Lviv Ukraine that probably makes him a Ukrainian American”.
But who knows?
Your antisemitic fantasies are disgusting, Georg.
Just before Robert accuses me of being an anti-semite: Georg hates Russians based on their ethicity. Natan Gozman’s ethnicity is not Russian (Alex Nosov could be of any descent). Its just funny: Georg hates Mascals because a couple of jewish mobsters killed his Russian neighbor.
I have no idea what this off-topic conversation is about, and I have no interest in figuring out; but yes – I am often called “Russian” in US. I don’t know whose argument it helps, either.
For what it’s worth my Jewish-Iranian friends are called “Iranian”, and my children for whom English is the first language are never called “Russian”. So, I attribute this label mainly to person’s native language.
Hope that helps somebody
And the victim was buried in the backyard of their underboss Alexander Spitchenko.
Robert,
Why did you intentionally omit the following line about Gozman:
http://www.sex-offenders.info/detail.php?id=24862
Born in Ukraine, naturalized U.S. citizen
Georg, I am not surprised that you are not able to read. However, if your “young” wife, who swims laps with you at 1 am in freezing March waters in new Jersey, doesn’t suffer from your handicap, she will be able to read for you what the links posted by Robert and me say:
http://www.sex-offenders.info/detail.php?id=24862
US Sex Offenders Registry Criminal Records
Name: Natan Gozman
Born in Ukraine, naturalized U.S. citizen
http://www.logicandsanity.com/2005/02/index.html
February 26, 2005
Blast from the past 2
I am not sure why the Daily News would want to use that particular quote, aside the fact that Nathan Gozman came from Ukraine not Russia… In his life on the lam, Gozman hid in Europe and Israel before returning to his homeland in the Ukraine.
Gozman was arrested in the Ukraine in May on charges of using forged documents. He was sent to Warsaw for transfer to New York, where he faces racketeering, weapons and murder charges, officials said.
Enough said, this is a Russian Mobster no matter where he went or came from. They spoke Rashan and did what Rashans do when off the leash.
The fact remains, my Decent Russian neighbor was murdered by Gozman and his stooges. The cops in the USA cooperated with Poland and Ukraine to get this menace. Too late to save my neighbor.
I feel responsible in a small way; There was an older couple next door to the Murder House, who asked about the “training camp” next door, on our one acre lots. They complained that there was gunfire, and target practice with physical fitness activities going on at the residence. They were worried.
I told them that Rashans were a people of disorder. I did not take it seriously, and told them that as long as Rashans stay in their own yard, it should be OK. We should have called the cops then, when they were doing their target practice. Just to check it out, or to keep an eye on the Rashans there.
But when Sergei moved in things were quiet again, and the gang was gone. Then for years nobody cut the grass in the backyard, and the house remained empty and eerie. My wife and I took walks around the back and always got a strange feeling… Russophobia(!)
Ok. The case of George is clear. For him, Rashans are those who (i) speak Russian and (ii) misbehave “when off the leash”. Georg, you should have clarified from the start than Rashans and Russians are different things. Your disease (at least one of them) is Rashaphobia, not Russophobia then. Thank God, Russia is mainly inhabited by Russians, nor Rashans. A propos, do you walk around eery houses with your imaginary wife before or after the 1:00 am 1-mile conjugal swims?
Georg, not only was Gozman from Ukraine, but so was Nosov. Nosov was from Kiev
“They spoke Rashan”
How do you know what languages they spoke? Were you acquainted with them? Were you friends? Did you tell them where Kobosev lived? All we know is that they are from Ukraine.
“this is a Russian Mobster no matter where he went or came from… and did what Rashans do when off the leash.”
That’s the crux of the matter here. You are so full of anti-Russian bigotry that you blame Russians for Ukrainians’ crimes. It doesn’t matter to you where a criminal comes from. If he is a criminal – you call him a “Rooshan” and then blame Russians for his actions, even though he is a Ukrainian.
That’s a convenient racket you got going, Georg.
See http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://old.kv.com.ua/index.php%3Frub%3D50%26number_old%3D3290&ei=7_GzS_vnNKGwNOmIjfAJ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA4Q7gEwAQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25D1%2587%25D1%2582%25D0%25BE%2B%25D0%25B2%2B%25D1%2583%25D0%25B1%25D0%25B8%25D0%25B9%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25B2%25D0%25B5%2B%25D0%259A%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B1%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B7%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B2%25D0%25B0%2B%25D0%25BF%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B4%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B7%25D1%2580%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B2%25D0%25B0%25D1%258E%25D1%2582%25D1%2581%25D1%258F%2B%25D0%2593%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B7%25D0%25BC%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BD%2B%25D0%25BF%25D0%25BE%2B%25D0%25BF%25D1%2580%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B7%25D0%25B2%25D0%25B8%25D1%2589%25D1%2583%2B%25D0%25A8%25D0%25BC%25D1%2583%25D0%25BD%25D1%258C%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B0%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official
http://old.kv.com.ua/index.php?rub=50&number_old=3290
Alexander Nosov, a former resident of Kiev
http://www.google.com/search?q=%D1%87%D1%82%D0%BE+%D0%B2+%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B5+%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B0+%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B7%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%8E%D1%82%D1%81%D1%8F+%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BD+%D0%BF%D0%BE+%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%89%D1%83+%D0%A8%D0%BC%D1%83%D0%BD%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B0&num=100&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&filter=0
Sorry Felix. Mea Culpa. I fed the troll called Georg.
Georg wrote: “The indictment said Mr. Nosov and Mr. Gozman shot the promising champion Sergei Kobozev, a former army captain who had boxed for the Soviet national team before immigrating to the United States in 1990. I have personally seen the results of your filthy Rashan Mafia”
Rashan mafia?! It was the Okrainian mafia:
http://www.logicandsanity.com/2005/02/index.html
Nathan Gozman came from Ukraine not Russia. In his life on the lam, Gozman hid in Europe and Israel before returning to his homeland in the Ukraine.
What we have here is Ukrainian mafia murdering a Russian boxer-physicist.
In fact, people from Ukraine dominate the ex-Soviet mafia in New York. But the propaganda machine calls it “Rooshan mafia”.
How typical. Okrainians like Georg murder Russian physicists and then blame “Rooshans” for their crimes.
@Another major attack on Russian civilians by the Caucasus rebels
Maybe. Or maybe not:
http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2010/03/29/11742.shtml
Even if suicide bombers were from Kavkaz, they could be allowed and organized by very russian “service”.
If this was done by Caucasians, I could understand emotional reason of revenge by some individuals, but I dont think it would be wise move to do by command centers of main rebel structures. Not only targeting random civilians serves more to Russian authorities than rebels, but also Moscow is full of muslim migrant workers, who could also be accidentally hurt. Muslim militants used suicide bombers recently, but it were targeted at occupant/collaborant structures in Caucasus, not at random civilians. Even Nevsky Express was not random civilian target, because it was full of government workers and other influental people like bussinesmen who were connected to power.
Has the presence of fellow Muslim civilians ever stopped Islamic terrorists before? When they hit the Twin Towers on 9-11, they killed a lot of Muslims in those buildings.
If the shaheeds are happy to kill themselves in suicide bombings, they are not going to worry about killing other Muslims. It’s not that if several Muslims die together, they have to split the 72 virgins. No. Each will get his own seventy two, inch allah.
Georg, once again you’ve proved yourself to be the biggest idiot on this blog (your Russian brother Ouch comes a close second). You have to be really messed up to gloat about the death of civilians (some of whom might well have been Chechen, Georgian or Ukrainian immigrant workers), but I guess that sort of thing has to be expected from a deeply confused, mentally inbalanced person such as yourself.
Clearly the cause of terrorist attacks in Russia is Russia’s genocidal imperialism, and I guess there is a possibility that this attack could have been a false flag (I doubt that though), but cheering the deaths of innocent people is beneath contempt.
@A. Stinking Roma,
Russians are not innocent of crimes against humanity, or even on their own people. Which have little humanity left.
So if Mascali can bomb their own Apartments, trains or murder Rasha’s own journalists, lawyers, assassinate Ukrainian Leaders abroad and poison our president as well as Litvinenko in London, why would it matter if some aggrieved widows from victimized parts of Rasha got their own vengeance, on some part of the freaking hoard? I think it would be justice.
You liked when the Romainians did the massacres for the Nazis in Leningrad and in Ukraine, and said that they did it for Romanian interests. You A. AT, RTR, come from the same breed of lying pig.
Georg, there is a reason why you are ostrachized by russophobes and russophiles alike. Very few people want you to be in their company.
Don’t ostracize him any further, it will just act as a provocation.
Georg clearly has some sort of mental disorder, or has undergone some terrible, terrible ordeal. In any case, let him have his say. It’s harmless, after all, normal people can see that nothing he says makes sense.
Leave him be, let him take out his rage. At least be happy for him when you read his posts, he must feel that he really makes a difference in this world.
Agreed. I acknowledge my behavior has not been responsible. Its weird how easy it is to get involved in discussions with trolls.
I am waiting for some brainless jerk to declare that since the terrorists killed 20 Russian people in Moscow, the Russians should be further punished and terrorists rewarded by taking away the Olympics from Sochi.
We were waiting for some brainless jerk to suggest that the world’s nations should sacrifice their sons and daughters so a KGB spy can look tough on a region Russia has no business ruling and which only wants to be free. We wait no longer.
Russia hates America yet expects it to risk its children’s lives to support Russian policy? You’re a madman!
When the Islamic terrorists murdered 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympic Games in Germany, the Olympic Committee decided to continue the Olympic Games in order not to reward terrorists. That was a brave decision. Terrorists – regardless of whether they kill Israelis, Russians or Americans – should not be rewarded for their crimes, no mater how much their vociferous supporters and backers try to.
You’re missing a key point: GERMANY was not a hotbed of terrorist revolt and Americans LIKE ISRAEL, and vice versa. Russians HATE Americans, and the Caucasus is one of the most dangerous places in the world.
Your suggestion that Americans, under these circumstances, should risk their children’s lives to stand in solidarity with Russia is every bit as offensive as this terrorist attack on Russian civilians.
You, sir, are are crazed barbarian.
You assert that the US is endangering the lives of its children by backing Russia, well, may I point out that the US is the country which originally coined the term “war on terror”. Their various invasions of the Middle East were responsible for the attacks. Perhaps the Republicans and/or the Democrats who were in power and who planned the invasions should’ve thought about the lives of their children before invading countries for their oil supplies.
Next, you assert that a mere suggestion is comparable to the deaths of 38 civilians. Once again, does this even make sense to you? Morally, such a statement is despicable, and logiacally, it doesn’t make sense.
Russians don’t hate Americans. I’m a Russian. I don’t hate Americans. My family, and friends who live in Russia similarly don’t hate America.
All the people who hate America are morons, and nationalists, like our poor friend George. They spend all their time spamming blogs.
The Russian people hate the US government, and their policies, which is comparable to your viewpoint of Russia.
Unfortunately, it is true – that’s a big reason why Russia is such a stinking swamp, 20 years after the breakup of the Soviet Union. Unlike most of the post-Soviet countries that built decent economies and civil societies.
Felix, how is Russia’s hate for the Bush administration different from the hate felt by the rest of Europe and the World?
The Russian people loved Americans in the early 1990s. Their love for America started to wane in the late 1990s after NATO’s Drang nach Osten expansion and the aggression against Yugoslavia in violation of the UN Charter and the international law.
Of course, the invasion, occupation and destruction of Iraq, also in violation of the UN Charter and the international law, turned Russia and the entire horrified World into the haters of the US government and of its policies.
Now that Obama has replaced Bush, the perception of the US government is gradually improving all over the World, including Russia.
Really RTR, has it occurred to your tiny little brain that eastern Europeans wanted to join NATO to ensure that they NEVER, EVER, came under Russian occupation, or even influence, again?
Russia, and Russian apologists such as yourself, only have to look in the mirror to see why the peoples of eastern europe despise the Russian state.
NATO has never stopped violence or war. The organization intervened in the Balkans, and look how much good it has done. Sectarian violence, racial hatred and poverty were increased tenfold after they intervened.
The same thing applies to Afghanistan: under US and NATO rule, heroin and opium production has increased tenfold, the Al-Qaeda grew stronger to the point that it had the resources to bomb skycrapers in Manhattan and entire buses and trains in London.
RTR raises a good point in that the NATO invasion was in fact illegal by international standards. You replied with an attack on Russian people, and failed to even respond to what he said ( which is actually all true, you can check it).
What is the point of having a civilized, normal debate if nobody is able to write a coherent, calm response, without attacks aimed at anyone?
I am willing to accept y0ur point of view as the correct one if you prove to me what you have said. If you engage debate with me, or anyone else, you should be prepared to do the same.
Well, I am pretty sure NATO stopped Russia making a grab for western Europe in the cold war period.
Actually, the US & NATO went into Afghanistan as a response to the attacks on September 11, and they had a UN mandate to do so. Even Russia supported them at the time.
With regards to the action in Yugoslavia, well Russia would have had the world sit back and allow the Serbs to commit any act of ethnic cleansing they desired, unfortunately Russia was using its veto to protect Serbia (just as the US does with Israel I will admit).
You’re absolutely right. I don’t know why I wrote that the US was involved in the war before 9/11. That’s a lapse of judgement on my part.
It isn’t. As I have proved to you, and as RTR has kindly elaborated, the Russian view of the US is based on what their government does, which seems pretty fair to me.
As for the question of civil societies in post-Sovet states, are you sure you want to bring countries like Lithuania into the equation, where the pro-Nazi veteran party is flourishing, anti-Russian sentiment has become a national image, and Russian monuments are torn down, graves are desecrated, and Russians attacked on the streets?
Well Mark, all you have to do is look at what Russia actually did in Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Finland, Ukraine, Georgia, Moldovia, Azerbaijan, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, to see why anyone who opposed Russian occupation would be seen as a hero.
Russia destroyed thousands upon thousands of cultural monuments in the area’s under its evil empire, from the 18th century until the 1990’s.
You misread the context in which I wrote my response. I was replying to Felix’s comments about Russian societies being decent and civil. I’m not talking about whether or not these acts are justified, I am asserting that any society in which these acts take place on a regular scale cannot be considered a civilized one. I anticipate that you will start talking about Russia and bring examples of Russia’s wrongdoing, but let’s leave that to one side for now. We’re talking about the Baltic states currently.
I appreciate that you give a lot of lists of various war crimes, but can you perhaps give some concrete examples?
Lets see, Poland would be having a reasonable gripe about Russia and it’s ally Nazi Germany invading in 1939, plus all those years of Russian imposed communist dictatorship, then there is the massacre at Katyn, and the forced deportation of Poles to Siberia.
Georgia has quite a few, starting with the Russian annexation (in violation of written agreements) of Georgia from around 1800 to 1860, followed by various massacres of Georgians, the suppression of language and Church in an attempt to “Russify” them, then there is the unprovoked Russian invasion of 1921, followed by 70 years of Russian occupation, including mass deportations, mass executions etc.
The Russian support of, facilitation of, an in many cases execution of the policy of ethnic cleansing of ethnic Georgians from areas that are of strategic interest to Russia (such as the Roki tunnel being in South Ossetia….) in the war in Abkhazia, and in South Ossetia.
The Baltic republics, well lets see, mass deportations and mass executions when Russia invaded in 1940, and more mass deportations and executions following reoccupation in 1944 or so.
Hungary, brutal Russian occupation, not to mention the Russian brutality during the 56 uprising.
Czechoslovakia, same as above but substitute 1968 for 1956.
What lies are these? None of these are in Lithuania.
This is just a propaganda made up from distorted facts from different Baltic states.
1. There is no flourishing pro-Nazi veteran party in any Baltic state. You probably mean Estonian and Latvian volunteers veteran parades,. These people enlisted to Waffen SS military formations in the end of WWII to defend their homelands from coming Red Army Rapists and NKVD torturers.
2. Russian monuments down and graves desecrated?First, don’t confuse Soviet monuments with Russian, it’s not the same. And you probably mean Bronze soldier case in Estonia, when red army soldier remains were orderly and respectfully re-buried to their proper place in graveyard.
If you want me, I can find you links, about Red Army monuments weere destroyed in Russia beacause of the constructing works , and it happened about the same time as Bronze soldier.
3. Russians attacked in the streets? :DDD Lithuania is not Tajikistan or Kyrgyzistan.
Monument to victims of Leningrad Siege destroyed beacause of building Gazprom scyscraper “Okhta center” –
sorry cant find English link, google translate from http://www.rmnt.ru/news/200488.htm?go_nties
On the territory of the future “Ohta center” demolished monument Petrozavod workers who died during the Great Patriotic War and the Siege of Leningrad, said the request for the deputy of the Legislative Assembly of St. Petersburg Sergey Malkov Governor Valentina Matvienko.
Stella heroes petrozavodtsam – vertical slab of the ship’s iron height of about 4,5 m from the granite slab on which was placed a commemorative inscription, Malkov describes the monument in its request. In February 2008, part of the granite monument was transferred to the State Museum of Urban Sculpture and after construction “Ohta center” restore the stele is not provided, Malkov wrote. Thus, he concluded, a memorial complex dedicated to the heroes – staff Petrozavod who died in the siege, was demolished and destroyed, write “Sheets”.
When in 2007, “Ohta center” came to the territory of Petrozavod on it, in addition to the stele, discovered as a statue of Lenin and a plaque with the name of Brezhnev, says spokesperson of the ODTS “Ohta. The company referred all monuments to be deposited in the Museum of Urban Sculpture with a view to their conservation, he says. In the process of building social and business center it will be erected a memorial to the heroes of the Great Northern War, as well as the Great Patriotic War and the embargo.
also from wikipedia about Moscow:
In recent years, the city administration has been widely criticized for heavy destruction that has affected many historical buildings. As much as a third of historic Moscow has been destroyed in the past few years to make space for luxury apartments and hotels. Other historical buildings, including such landmarks as the 1930 Moskva hotel and the 1913 department store Voyentorg, have been razed and reconstructed anew, with the inevitable loss of historical value. Critics also blame the government for not applying the conservation laws: in the last 12 years more than 50 buildings with monument status were torn down, several of those dating back to the seventeenth century. Some critics also wonder if the money used for the reconstruction of razed buildings could not be used for the renovation of decaying structures, which include many works by architect Konstantin Melnikov and Mayakovskaya metro station.
Let me reply to you point by point.
First off, let’s talk domestically. The monument that was torn town in Petrozavod was taken apart, as far as I understood, but another one is going to be built directly in the commerical centre
“In the process of building social and business center it will be erected a memorial to the heroes of the Great Northern War, as well as the Great Patriotic War and the embargo.”
As for the Moscow buildings that are being torn down, it is shocking I do admit. There really is no justification for what is being done there, but the rich businessmen and oligarchs care little about Russia’s past. It’s a shame really.
– You’re right, in Lithuania anti-Russian attacks are rare. Foreigners are sometimes beaten up though: http://wonderland.cafebabel.com/en/post/2009/03/18/Neo-nazism-on-the-rise-in-Lithuania
And here is a piece in Russian ( Google translate it!) which talks about a Russian boy who was assaulted in Latvia for wearing a Russian cap.
http://www.newspb.ru/allnews/1261086/
– Yes, the people were reburied elsewhere. But the monument itself was damaged, with swastikas being drawn on it, and barbed wire being placed onto it to symbolize Russian “occupants”.
-And here is good old Wikipedia, to illustrate the neo-nazi activities in Estonia:
“The United Nations Human Rights Council Special Rapporteur’s Report of 2008 noted that non-governmental organizations devoted to human rights as well as community representatives had pointed out that neo-Nazi groups are currently active in Estonia—particularly in Tartu—and have perpetrated acts of violence against non-European minorities.
Neo-Nazi groups in Estonia and neighboring Latvia have carried out re-enactments of events set during World War II and have staged parades celebrating the Nazi units of the Baltic states, which fought against the forces of the Soviet Union in the Second World War. Efraim Zuroff of the United States-based Simon Wiesenthal Center commented on some of the attendees: “dozens of foreign neo-Nazis clearly demonstrated the danger that they will encourage the rebirth of fascism and racist extremism.”
Mark, I would be careful about accusing other countries of Neo-Nazism, when Russia has around half of the worlds Neo-Nazi’s today.
“Racism in post-Soviet Russia appears mainly in the form of negative attitudes and actions towards people who are not considered ethnically Russian. Traditionally, this included antisemitism, as well as hostility towards various Caucasian and Central Asian ethnicities (whether of Muslim faith).
In May 2006, Amnesty International reported that racially motivated killings in Russia were “out of control” and that at least 28 people were killed in 2005. In 2006, Amnesty International registered 252 victims of racist crimes, of which 21 died. In February 2007, President Vladimir Putin asked the Federal Security Service to combat racism, but hate crimes still increased. From January 1 to July 31, 2007, Amnesty International registered 310 victims of neo-Nazi and racist crimes in Russia; 37 of those victims died as a result of attacks. Amnesty International criticize Russian police for not doing enough to combat racist crimes, and for often ignoring reports from civilians about threats and crimes. According to the Moscow Human Rights Bureau, from January to March, 2008, 49 people were killed in assaults by radical nationalists, 28 of them in the greater Moscow area, and an estimated 118 people in total were killed in the whole of 2008.
The number of Russian neo-Nazis is estimated at around 85,000, “half of the world’s total”, according to western news agencies. The director of the Human Rights Bureau, Alexander Brod, stated that surveys show xenophobia and other racist expressions are prevalent in 50 percent of Russians.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_post-Soviet_Russia
“According to Semyon Charny of the Moscow Human Rights Bureau, there are an estimated 70,000 skinheads in Russia. Promoting an overtly Nazi ideology, they espouse hatred for those who are not ethnic Russians, typically describing them as invaders stealing jobs and destroying Russian culture.
Also targeted are Russian citizens from the Far East and Caucasus, but attacks on groups such as Chechens have dropped because they began to arm themselves and fight back, according to Galina Kozhevnikova of the Sova Center.
Violent nationalists have become more organized in recent years, according to human rights groups. “If before, attacks were spontaneous and chaotic, now skinheads are going on hunts for victims,” Charny said.
Kozhevnikova said the attacks are the most extreme expression of rising nationalism in Russian society. “The xenophobic mood in politics and society is quite high,” she said, arguing that denunciation of migrants has entered mainstream discourse.
The Sova Center noted in a recent report, for example, that Gennady Zyuganov, the Communist Party candidate for president, expressed concern about the “lack of Russian faces” in some industries. A poll by the Levada Center in December found that 54 percent of those surveyed support the notion that Russia is a state for the Russian people, and that the influence of other ethnicities should be limited”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/07/AR2008040702718_2.html?hpid=topnews
Before you quote things, you should present their context. The last paragraph of your article doesn’t even discuss Neo-Nazism in Russia.
Of course Neo-Nazism is a problem in Russia. However, there are far more serious internal problems than this. The country has a power-hungry, unstable leader, who clings onto power with his fingernails. There are economic and infrastructural problems to be dealt with. Then there’s corruption too.
It must be added that the problem of Neo-Nazism is pale in comparison with countries such as the US, where there is a real Nazi party. Nazi sentiment is also present in the Baltic states as I have pointed out. In my opinion, fighting these Nazis is like fighting religious extremists – you can end up driving them underground and causing them to lash out at society in far more dangerous ways.
Let them have their say, just like the leader of the British National Party had his say during a live debate on Question Time. He got bollocked, and now his nationalist, pro-white party is legally obliged to include black and muslims people in its meetings. This movement will fizzle out with time.
Are you suggesting that international events should not be allowed to be held in countries that became victims of terrorism and can become again: USA, Russia, Germany, England, etc?
What if the international community took the 2002 Winter Olympics out of Salt Lake City, USA because of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks that took place just 3 months earlier and took the lives of almost 3,000 innocent Americans?
Wouldn’t this have rewarded and encouraged terrorism? Thank god that in those horrible times, the International Olympic Committee kept its support for the Slat Lake City Olympics, and Russia, Yugoslavia, Kazakhstan, France, Tajikistan, China, Belarus and all other countries risked their children’s lives to stand in solidarity with the United States in those difficult for the USA times. Even Iran participated!
@When the Islamic terrorists murdered 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympic Games in Germany,
Actually they were Arab Socialist and Palestinian nationalist. And they (PLO) were aided by the Soviet Union – a Soviet KGB agent was even killed in the Israeli revenge killings.
Two old comrades from the both organizations meeting after many years:
Robert,
How about your friend Bin Laden? Is he grateful for the help he received from the CIA as a young budding Muslim patriot learning his skills at killing the Russian infidels in Afghanistan back in the 1980s?
Terrorists (as in indiscriminately targeting random civilians) are scum whether they come from Caucasus, Gaza, or Southern Thailand. And defending terrorists is despicable – so George joins glorious company of Ahmadinejad, George Galloway, and Ward Churchill. There is no gray – it’s quite black and white.
The gray area is what is government response to terrorism. Russia has become a failed state – it can outsource fight with terrorism to thugs like Kadyrov and Russian OMON; and in the meantime Putin can kiss Khaled Mashal, build Iranian nuclear reactors, and push Kyrgiz to close American Air Force base. But the failed state can not gain intelligence on future terrorist attack, nor can bribe-ridden cops prevent attacks in progress.
It is not easy to get explosives from Chechnya (if it originated in Chechnya); and it is not easy to train, plan, equip, and set up such operation in rural Central Russia (where the train exploded) not in Moscow that has three times more cops per capita than New York
“push Kyrgiz to close American Air Force base. ”
What’s so bad about that? When USA asked Kyrgyzstan to let them open this air base, they said that it would be a temporary one, to be closed as soon as Taliban is defeated and USA conquers Kabul. So, what’s so bad about keeping one’s promises?
Moreover, are you sure that USA would be very happy if Russia opened air bases in, say, Cuba and Nicaragua?
I recall how some people here became even more hysterical than usual when she heard that Russia and Nicaragua were planning some joint military exercise:
EDITORIAL: Russia wants Cold War
Earlier this week, apparently as payback for recognition of Ossetia, Russia announced it would hold joint military exercises with arch American enemy Nicaragua. A glowering Sergei Lavrov spit in Barack Obama’s eye and sat down next to a preening, arrogant Nicaraguan [freely and democratically elected] dictator, Daniel Ortega, and together they openly declared cold war on the world’s only superpower.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ortega#2006_Presidential_Election
2006 Presidential Election
International observers, including the Carter Center, judged the election to be free and fair. The White House confirmed on 8 January 2007 that U.S. President George W. Bush also had called Ortega to congratulate him on his election victory.
It’s not about USA – it’s about Russia. And Russian response to terrorism. If you don’t see the connection – no explanation will help
Well, I know that you are a legend in your own mind, but it would be nice if you explained how the air base in Kyrgiz relates to terrorism.
Yes, Grim Statistics indeed, but not much for a RaSSiya when it really gets rolling.
Watch for the spillover into other countries, to divert attention from the Failed State. There have been warnings already.
The “Failed State” may want to take other countries along for the ride. Then the Bombings would become insignificant and happened before.
Maybe this is a new trend, but could spread further to the East, and out of reach for central authorities in Moscow. Can this be the start of something new, that will get even bigger? This could be good for the rest of the world if this menace to humanity is finally taken apart.
But it all comes to, the weakening of the Regime and volatility of the stock market.
well, to my knowledge, nobody pushed to close that US base in “do it, or else..” threat way. Russia just said “well, if you really want that loan…”. Pure geopolitics trade.
once more – geopolitics trade in the sense that Russia felt to its advantage if the base is closed! It was certainly advantageous to Putin – he could bargain as a big boy and wipe pindosy’s nose (His favorite expression; not mine).
Whether it was advantageous for Russia – who knows. Maybe if, instead, he asked pindosy for intelligence training – explosions could be prevented. Actions have consequences
And the base is still there, much to the annoyance of the Russians.
The locals know who are their real friends, and its not Russia
List of largest terror acts in Moscow (1999-2010):
Spetember 9, 1999. Apartment building on Guryanov St. 109 killed, over 200 wounded.
September 13, 1999: Apartment building on Kashira Hwy. 124 killed.
August 8, 2000: Underpass on Pushkin Square. 13 killed, 122 wounded.
October 23, 2002: Hostages in Dubrovka theatre. 129 killed.
July 5, 2003: Tushin market near the airport – the place of rock festival “Wings”. 16 killed, 59 wounded.
December 9, 2003. Mohovaya St. near National Hotel. 6 killed, 14 wounded.
February 6, 2004. Underground train. 41 killed, 250 wounded.
August 31, 2004. Near Rizhskaya underground station. 10 killed, 51 wounded.
August 21, 2006. Cherkizov Market. 14 killed, 50 wounded.
March 29, 2010. Undergound. 37 killed, 65 wounded
Grim statistics… failed state
This is horrible. Sadly, USA has been an even larger victim of terrorism or, as you call it, “rim statistics… failed state“. New York alone suffered a staggering 2,603 casualties in one day, much more than all of Russia combined over the last 10 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_the_United_States#2000-present
* 1999 December 31 An arson fire causes one million dollars in damage and destroys the fourth floor of Michigan State University’s Agriculture Hall. In 2008 four people that the government claimed were Earth Liberation Front members were indicted for that incident.[28]
[edit] 2000-present
* 2000 October 13, Firebombing of Temple Beth El (Syracuse)
* 2000: 2000 New York terror attack Three young men of Arab descent hurled crude Molotov cocktails at a synagogue in The Bronx, New York to “strike a blow in the Middle East conflict between Israel and Palestine”.[24]
* 2001 May 21 The Center for Urban Horticulture at the University of Washington burned. Replacement building cost $7,000,000. Earth Liberation Front members pleads guilty.[29][30]
* 2001 September 11: September 11, 2001 attacks carried out by Al-Qaeda. The attacks were carried out by Islamic fundamentalists using hijacked commercial airplanes to damage the twin towers of the World Trade Center, ultimately destroying both 110-story skyscrapers. The Pentagon near Washington, D.C. is also severly damaged. Building 7 of the World Trade Center was also destroyed but was not hit with a plane. A fourth plane crashed prematurely in Pennsylvania. Casualties of the September 11 attacks included a total of 2,974 fatalities, excluding the 19 hijackers: 246 on the four planes (from which there were no survivors), 2,603 in New York City in the towers and on the ground, and 125 at the Pentagon.[1][2] An additional 24 people remain listed as missing.
* 2001 September 18: November – 2001 anthrax attacks. Letters tainted with anthrax kill five across the United States, with politicians and media officials as the apparent targets. On July 31, 2008 Bruce E. Ivins a top biodefense researcher committed suicide.[31] On August 6, 2008 the FBI concluded that Ivins was solely responsible for the attacks and suggested that Ivins wanted to bolster support for a vaccine he helped create and that he targeted two lawmakers because they were Catholics who held pro choice views.[32]
* May 2002 Mailbox Pipe Bomber: Lucas John Helder rigged pipe bombs in private mailboxes to explode when the boxes were opened. He injured 6 people in Nebraska, Colorado, Texas, Illinois, and Iowa. His motivation was to garner media attention so that he could spread a message denouncing government control over daily lives and the illegality of marijuana as well as promoting astral projection.
* 2002 July 4: 2002 Los Angeles Airport shooting Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, a 41-year-old Egyptian national, kills two Israelis and wounds four others at the El Al ticket counter at Los Angeles International Airport. The FBI concluded this was terrorism, although they found no evidence linking Hadayet to any terrorist group.[33]
* October 2002 Beltway Sniper Attacks: During three weeks in October 2002 John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo killed 10 people and critically injured three others in Washington D.C, Baltimore, and Virginia. The pair were also suspected of earlier shootings in Maryland, Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, Louisiana and Washington state.[34] No motivation was given at the trial but evidence presented showed an affinity to the cause of the Islamic jihad.
* 2006 March 5: Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar injured 6 when he drove an SUV into a group of pedestrians at UNC-Chapel Hill to “avenge the deaths or murders of Muslims around the world”.[35]
* 2006 July 28: Seattle Jewish Federation shooting, Egyptian shoots six Jewish women
* 2007 October 26: A pair of improvised explosive devices were thrown at the Mexican Consulate in New York City. The fake grenades were filled with black powder and detonated by fuses causing very minor damage. Police were investigating the connection between this and a similar attack against the British Consulate in New York in 2005.[36]
* 2008 February: In the first reported incident of animal-rights extremists physically assaulting the family members of animal researchers, six masked activists attempted to force their way into the home of a University of California, Santa Cruz, researcher and injured the researcher’s husband.[37][38]
* 2008 March 3: Four multimillion-dollar show homes place in Woodinville, Washington are torched. The Earth Liberation Front is suspected in the fires.[39]
* 2008 May 4 Multiple nail laden pipe bombs exploded at a Federal Courthouse in San Diego at 1:40 AM causing “considerable damage” to the entrance and lobby and sending shrapnel two blocks away. The F.B.I. is investigating links between this attack and an April 25 explosion at the FedEx building also in San Diego.[40][41]
* 2008 July 27 Jim D. Adkisson opened fire in the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee killing two and injuring seven before being tackled to the ground by congregation members. A note found in his SUV indicated this was intended as a suicide attack and said the church was apparently targeted because of its support of liberal social policies.[42]
* 2008 August 2, August 3 University of California-Santa Cruz molecular biologist David Feldheim’s home was firebombed. A car belonging to another researcher from that University was destroyed by a firebomb in what is presumed to be related. FBI is investigating incidents as domestic terrorism related to animal rights groups.[43][44]
* 2009 April 8: According to a report in the Wall Street Journal intruders have left malware in power grids, water and sewage systems that could be activated at a later date. While the attacks which have occurred over a period of time seem to have originated in China and Russia it is unknown if they are state sponsored.[45]
* 2009 May 31: Assassination of George Tiller. Dr. George Tiller, a doctor who provided late term abortions was shot to death in a Wichita, Kansas church. Tiller was shot previously in 1993 and his abortion clinic had been bombed in 1985. Alleged assassin Scott Roeder, who believes in justifiable homicide of abortion providers, has been arrested for the killing.[46][47]
* 2009 May 25: Crude bomb explodes in a Starbucks in Manhattan’s Upper East Side. On July 14 Kyle Shaw age 17 is arrested and pleaded not guilty. He is being held pending $300,000 bond or $100,000 cash bail. Police allege his motive was to emulate “Project Mayhem” a series of assaults on corporate America portrayed in the movie Fight Club.[48]
* 2009 June 1: Arkansas recruiting office shooting One military recruiter was killed and another critically injured by gunshot at a Little Rock, Arkansas Army/Navy Career Center. The suspect Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad said he was upset over U.S. killing of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan.[49]
* 2009 June 10: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum shooting. A gunman identified as 88 year old James Wenneker von Brunn walked into the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington D.C. and shot a guard who later died. Wenneker von Brunn was critically wounded when security guards immediately returned fire .[50] On January 6, 2010 Wenneker von Brunn died of natural causes at a hospital near where he was imprisoned.[51] Wennecker von Brunn was described as a white supremacist and a neo-Nazi.[52]
* 2009 July 4: A denial of service attack of unusual length and sophistication affected United States and South Korean government websites as well as websites for the Washington Post and NASDAQ. Websites for several U.S. government agencies were shut down for up to 3 days. A sophisticated organization or nation was suspected according to the National Intelligence Service.[53][54]
* 2010 February 18: Joseph Stack flew a small plane into an IRS building in Texas, believed to be in retaliation to the U.S. Government.
I knew it! I knew it! Somebody will immediately have the response “USA is no better”! If you think that it is as safe to walk in Moscow as it is in New York – you are delusional. And Moscow has more than triple number of cops than New York (130 thousand vs 40 thousand).
So, in response to a list of horrible terrorist acts in one city this dude lists episodes all over the country, including “malware in power grids” and “denial of service attack”.
I think people will pardon me if I find it ridiculous to argue with you.
“f you think that it is as safe to walk in Moscow as it is in New York – you are delusional. ”
There is no comparison between Moscow and New York. In Moscow, people have no fear of walking anywhere even at night. In many parts of New York’s Manhattan, Bronx and Brooklyn only a suicidal maniac would venture for a walk.
Don’t you have such dangerous parts in Los Angeles as well, Felix?
In any case, we were talking about the numbers of victims of terrorism, and New York has had 2,600 of them. Horrible.
Oh yes. I’m sure all the people of Caucasian features are totally feeling safe to walk in Moscow right now, even more than they usually do.
There won’t be any hostility from the thousands of Nazi Skinhead thugs in Moscow (who never killed any of them, usually with with knives and especially on Hitler’s birthday, but once even a pretty big marketplace bombing), and lots of friendship from the Moscow “militia” (who never rounded-up them by thousands and are not racist at all on the daily basis).
Oh wait. Right now “the blacks” don’t leave their homes.
@In any case, we were talking about the numbers of victims of terrorism, and New York has had 2,600 of them. Horrible.
So. How many thousands died in much smaller Grozny, and how “horrible” was this? More horrible? Less horrible? Not horrible at all?
I heard (from Putin) that few hundred of civilian and military (all sides) dead in Tskhinvali was “total genocide”. If this was “total” genocide (at the time he has been lying about “2100 civilians”), what kind of genocide happened in Grozny repeatedly, where so much more died? “More than total genocide”? Maybe someone should ask Vlad the next time he makes his annual “ask your Prime President” TV show.
Oh please, Robert. Come to New York and try to take a walk in parts of Harlem and the Bronx if you are of the wrong race.
Are you now trying to say that the ethnic minorities “in parts of Harlem and Bronx” also do not leave their homes in the days around Hitler’s brithday in the very real fear of being ritualistically murdered by the hordes of tens of thousands Nazis, and this is not just the Russia-exclusive phenomemon?
What an interesting claim, indeed.
Robert,
I personally knew a Jewish man who was killed in the middle of the day in the Bronx. The Jews that I knew in New York, all are scared of walking in many parts of Harlem and the Bronx.
I also knew a woman, whose old Jewish relative died in pogroms in Crown Heights in Brooklyn. Ironically, she survived the Holocaust but died in an anti-Jewish pogrom in New York:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Heights_riots
About three hours after the riots began, a group of approximately 20 young black men surrounded Yankel Rosenbaum, a 29-year-old University of Melbourne student in the United States conducting research for his doctorate. They stabbed him several times in the back and beat him severely, fracturing his skull. Nelson was charged with murder and acquitted, but later convicted of violating Rosenbaum’s civil rights.[17][18]
For three days following the accident, numerous African Americans and Caribbean Americans of the neighborhood, joined by growing numbers of non-residents, rioted in Crown Heights. In the rioting of the ensuing three days, many of the rioters “did not even live in Crown Heights.”[1]
During the riots, Jews were injured, stores were looted, and cars and homes were damaged. The rioters identified Jewish homes by the mezuzot affixed to the front doors.[13] Rioters marched through Crown Heights carrying anti-Semitic signs and an Israeli flag was burned. [13][1]
After episodes of rock- and bottle-throwing involving hundreds of blacks and Jews, and after groups of blacks marched through Crown Heights chanting “No Justice, No Peace!”, “Death to the Jews!”, and “Whose streets? Our streets!”, an additional 1,200 police officers were sent to confront rioters in Crown Heights.[1] Riots escalated to the extent that a detachment of 200 police officers was overwhelmed and had to retreat for their safety. On August 22, over 1,800 police officers, including mounted and motorcycle units, had been dispatched to stop the attacks on people and property.[1]
By the time the three days of rioting ended, 152 police officers and 38 civilians were injured, 27 vehicles were destroyed, seven stores were looted or burned,[19] and 225 cases of robbery and burglary were committed.[1] At least 129 arrests were made during the riots,[19] including 122 blacks and seven whites.[20][21] Property damage was estimated at one million dollars.[1]
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-101763376.html
The Crown Heights riot of August 1991 was one of the most serious incidents of antisemitism in American history. It took place in the Crown Heights neighborhood of Brooklyn, the worldwide center of the Lubavitch Hasidic movement, and lasted for three days. The riot terrorized and traumatized the 20,000 Lubavitchers of Crown Heights. Yankel Rosenbaum was murdered; Bracha Estrin, a Lubavitch survivor of the Holocaust, committed suicide; six stores were looted; 152 police officers and 38 civilians claimed to have been injured; 27 police vehicles were damaged or destroyed; and 129 persons were arrested. (1)
@New York alone suffered a staggering 2,603 casualties in one day, much more than all of Russia combined over the last 10 years.
Oh really? I thought the official Russsian military casualties from “terrorist” attacks only in the first war in Chechnya (94-95) are much greater than this figure – and they claim this happened totally “in Russia”?
94-96, of course.
And here’s how the “terrorists” killed more than 1000 Russian soldiers just overnight:
(I guess I should not remind you how many civilians also died this night, all of them supposedly Russian citiziens and so many of them even ethnic Russians.)
And the Russian military/police/paramilitary casualties in the last 10 years from “terrorist” attacks in Russia in the last 10 years are much greater than 2,603 too.
Even according to the official figures.
Where are your sources?
He counts Chechen wars as “terrorism”.
Yes, I thought so. Come on Robert, you can’t make such extraordinary allegations without sources, can you?
LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS
Careful, you baboon. He’s very good with sources, and contributes FAR more added value to this blog than Y-O-U do. Back off.
Again, yo do nothing but insult me. This is a pretty clear sign to me, and other people, that you have nothing better to say. If you want to seem clever and intelligent, childish insults are not the best way to do this.
To be completely honest, I have answered quite a lot of questions, and managed to debate quite a few people at the same time. I did so calmly, and thought before I made responses.
Robert’s contributions have so far been limited to making allegations specifically WITHOUT giving sources.
I assume that you were very angry when you wrote this response, as you couldn’t even write coherently. Please, calm down before you post. You let your emotions completely control what you write, and the end result is a post which actually discredits you more than me.
I fail to understand why you wrote “Y-O-U”. I think this was a failed attempt at adding emotion and rage to your post. Use adjectives and nouns to do this, not ridiculous capitalization.
I expected more from a self-proclaimed journalist to be honest. How dissapointing.
@He counts Chechen wars as “terrorism”.
No, the so called “Russian government” says all this was terrorism. Any attack on the army on police was and is a “terrorist attack” in the course of “the counterterrorist operation”.
For example, from UN, during the massive Russian terrorist attack on Grozny (not just one or two bombs, but rather hundreds of thousands of explosions):
Tells Chechens To Leave Grozny By Saturday; More
Monday, December 06, 1999
Russia’s military today told all Chechens to leave their besieged capital Grozny within five days or face an unrestrained onslaught by artillery and air, independent NTV television reported.
A distributed leaflet warned that anyone who fails to flee the regional capital by Saturday through a security corridor will be considered a fair enemy target and destroyed. “The united troop command gives you a last chance,” the leaflet said. “Until December 11, there will be a safety corridor through the village of Pervomaiskoye.” A senior government official told the RIA news agency the corridor could be opened tomorrow.
“Those leaving by that time would have their safety guaranteed,” the leaflet said. “Those who remain will be viewed as terrorists and bandits. They will be destroyed by artillery and aviation. There will be no more talks. All those who do not leave the city will be destroyed. The countdown has started” (Reuters/Dublin Irish Times, 6 Dec).
Meanwhile, food supplies have almost run out in Grozny, according to New York-based Human Rights Watch.
“The situation has become very critical — they could starve in the next few days, in the next few weeks,” said Marie Struthers, a spokesperson for Human Rights Watch. “There appears to be next to no food in Grozny, almost no bread. Some accounts say people are being forced to walk four or five kilometers to get fresh running water,” she added (BBC Online, 5 Dec).
The UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) said Friday its second relief convoy, 15 trucks carrying food and wood stoves, had arrived in Ingushetia’s capital Nazran. Some 226,000 displaced Chechens are registered in Ingushetia.
“UNHCR is boosting its presence in Stavropol — our base for relief operations in the Northern Caucasus,” said Ron Redmond, a UNHCR spokesperson. “But we [have] yet to receive a security plan from the Russian which would enable us to actually deploy international staff on the ground in Ingushetia and North Ossetia” (UN Newservice, 3 Dec).
Some estimates say up to 50,000 people are still trapped in Grozny (BBC Online). But the First Deputy Chief of the Russian armed forces said that at most, only a few thousand civilians remain in Grozny, adding that there has been no significant number of civilian casualties. He added that international observers will be allowed into Grozny when circumstances allow, “to see for themselves that the damage to the city has been minimal” (BBC World Service, 6 Dec)
http://www.unwire.org/unwire/19991206/6158_story.asp
As you see, they actually declared EVERYONE in Grozny “terrorists”. And isn’t an attack by the “terrorists” a “terrorist attack”?
“Minimal damage”, that you can “see yourself”:
“No, the so called “Russian government” says all this was terrorism. Any attack on the army on police was and is a “terrorist attack” in the course of “the counterterrorist operation”.”
Absolutely not. A terrorist attack is a surprise attack involving the deliberate use of violence against civilians and in rare cases, civil and military personnel, in the hope of attaining political or religious aims.
Chechnya was a war; there were belligerents, commanders, strategic points. It was more than a single terrorist attack against the Russian armed forces.
Robert, according to your definition, all of the UK,US, German and Italian forces that suffered casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan were also victims of terrorism. This is not the case, except for certain rare situations ( i.e. IED’s, suicide bombers etc.)
As most other people do on this blog, you take a normal article and twist its words out of proportion. The leaflet SPECIFICALLY mentioned that anyone who stays in Grozny could be a potential target. Everyone else had an opportunity to leave the region securely. I don’t even know why you brought this up.
You still haven’t given me those figures to back up your previous claims. Look to me as if yu’re trying to change the subject.
@Robert, according to your definition,
It’s not “my definition”, it’s the Russian definition.
No one ever captured by the Russians in this conflict was treated as a prisoner of war, or even as “enemy combatant”, or political prisoner. NO ONE. Ever. All of the enemy combatants were “terrorists” and/or “bandits”, according to Russia.
(And, as you see, even the civilian population was treated as such, and threatened/promised to be “destroyed”.)
There was also never officially “war”, or even any kind of conflict. It was just “the counter-terrorist operation”, according to the Kremlin. (The first one being “the restoration of constitutional order”.)
@The leaflet SPECIFICALLY mentioned that anyone who stays in Grozny could be a potential target.
Not any “potential target”. THE target. Not “you may suffer”, but “you all will be destroyed”.
Imagine if someone issued such threat (and it was not an empty threat or a bluff, no) to the Russian capital, the city of Moscow. Everyone get out of the city in the next 48 hours, or else “you will be all destroyed”.
You know who else did something like this? The folks like Khmer Rouge in 1975 (to their own capital), or the Nazis in 1944 (to Warsaw). Grozny in 2000 looked quite like Warsaw in 1945, too.
Yes, what I’m talking here is the Nazi warfare at its very worst. And they said they fought the “terrorists and bandits”, too (“Polnische Banditen”). Except at the very end they were actually taking them POW, eventually.
@Everyone else had an opportunity to leave the region securely.
“Funny” that.
You just don’t know how thousands of people were killed or injured in the so-called “humanitarian corridors” and “safe zones” between November 1999 and February 2000, do you?
Here’s one case of a “humanitarian corridor” (shelling and sniping):
Umayeva v. Russia, (1200/03)
And here’s one of a “safe zone” (shelling and bombing):
Isayeva v. Russia, (57950/00)
http://www.srji.org/en/legal/cases
Robert // March 30, 2010 at 5:00 pm | Reply
And the Russian military/police/paramilitary casualties in the last 10 years from “terrorist” attacks in Russia in the last 10 years are much greater than 2,603 too.
Felix was talking about civilian casualties in one city: Moscow. I was talking about civilian casualties in one city: New York.
How do “military/police/paramilitary” losses in all of Russia relate to that?
Do you know the difference between military and civilians, Robert? Why do you always demagogue discussions?
OK. So, tell me, how many civilians died in the course of the so-called “counterterrorist operation” in Grozny?
Let’s forget for a while how Russia declared everyone in Grozny “terrorists and bandits” and told them all how they are going to “destroy” them “all”. Because they were still civilians, no matter of declared “terrorists and bandits” (Russia 1999), or “saboteurs” (Iraq 1988) or “saboteurs and cockroaches” (Rwanda 1994) to be “destroyed”.
Let’s also forget how they were not even really counted at all. And not mourned, of course. Because all I know they were men and women of all ages and various ethnicities, inclyding many ethnic Russians, and there were thousands of them.
Should we allow Russia to add Sochi 2014 to that list? We don’t think so.
Of course not! The victims of terrorism – USA and Russia – should join forces in fighting and preventing terrorism.
@Of course not! The victims of terrorism – USA and Russia – should join forces in fighting and preventing terrorism.
I think you didn’t hear the President-General Kadyrov, Hero of Russia, and the President-General Yevkurov, Hero of Russia, about the subject of USA (and UK and Israel, and Ukraine and Georgia too) and terrorism.
Some quotes from those two top Russian government officials in the Caucasus:
Former rebel-turned-Moscow-ally Ramzan Kadyrov said in comments to Zavtra newspaper reprinted on his official website that he had seen the U.S. driving licence of a CIA operative who was killed in a security operation he led. Chechen authorities have previously said insurgents following the radical Wahabist form of Islam receive support from international Islamist groups sympathetic to al-Qaeda, but have not accused the West of instigating violence.
“We’re fighting in the mountains with the American and English intelligence agencies. They are fighting not against Kadyrov, not against traditional Islam, they are fighting against the sovereign Russian state,” he said.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/22963/
Yevkurov, a former officer of the Russian GRU military intelligence service, also accused the United States, Britain and Israel of fomenting instability in the North Caucasus.
“The West will try to prevent Russia from restoring its Soviet-era might,” he said in the interview, without elaborating.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/08/17/2009-08-17_deadly_suicide_truck_bomb_hits_police_station_in_russias_north_caucasus.html
Also on March 6, Federal Security Service (FSB) Director Aleksandr Bortnikov announced that it was Buryatsky and the three Kartoyev brothers apprehended during the March 2 operation who were responsible for the bombing on November 27 last year of the Nevsky express train that killed 28 people. Four more brothers from the Kartoyev family were killed during the March 2 fighting.
Chechen Republic head Ramzan Kadyrov for his part told a Chechen journalist on March 6 that Buryatsky was an agent of Western intelligence services and had “nothing to do with Islam.”
http://www.rferl.org/content/Militant_Website_Confirms_Buryatskys_Death/1976923.html
The Moscow media on Christmas eve are playing up an interview Ramzan Kadyrov gave to Reuters three days ago in which the Chechen president called for Moscow “to liquidate” the threats to Russia that he says Georgia and Ukraine continue to pose by “attacking” those countries on all fronts.
Kadyrov told Stott that “last year’s attack by US ally Georgia on the pro-Russian rebel region of South Ossetia was part of a Western plot to seize the whole Caucasus region. ‘If they get control of the Caucasus, you could say they’ll get control of virtually all of Russia, because the Caucasus is our backbone.’”
But despite Moscow’s victory a year ago, Kadyrov continued, “Georgia, South Ossetia, Ukraine, all this will go on and on. It’s Russia’s private affliction. Why should we always suffer if we can eradicate this for good? We are a great power; we have everything – an army, technology. We need to attack.”
At the same time, the Chechen leader continued, “I don’t want to kill. Who did I fight? I fought terrorists. Who [sic] did I protect? I protected the whole of Russia so that people in Moscow or St. Petersburg … could live in peace. … They accuse me of killing women and children. It’s not true.”
http://jamestownfoundation.blogspot.com/2009/12/ramzan-kadyrov-calls-on-moscow-to.html
Any comments on this?
Please?
Oh, come on, don’t be shy now.
Like I said on another thread, it is disgusting that people use these terrorist attacks, in which INNOCENT people died, as a pretext for critisizing some poxy Russian invasion ( albeit a failed one as we can see).
Didn’t the author of this blog already know of the situation in the Caucaus region? Surely then, you could’ve written an article about it at any time, but you choose to do so now, because you know that by doing this you will attract more attention.
This is despicable. Surely even you can see this. Nobody wrote anything about Bush and his fascist policies after the 9/11 attacks, did they? Not even in the US, the world’s “freest” state. People had a little respect for those who died.
I don’t see how the dead Americans warrant any more respect than the dead Russians. They’re all humans, and victims of terrorism.
Oh, and can someone explain to me why the FSB would organize a false-flag operation RIGHT UNDER THEIR OWN OFFICES? I can’t imagine how much disruption there must be as a cause of the attacks.
Sir, you are a PSYCHOPATH. Read the “Chechnya” link in our sidebar. We ROUTINELY write about this subject. You are a damned liar.
I do not claim that you have never written about it, I merely drew attention to the fact that you have chosen to write about it now.
Besides this, would it be too much to ask what warrants this attack directed against me? Am I the real psychopath here?
Is this a rhetorical question?
Perhaps. I didn’t give the matter too much thought.
Were you implying the obvious thing which should go without saying?
As an old Ossetian proverb goes, it is highly impolite for guests to talk about their host’s illnesses.
Yes, I added the statement as an afterthought. Although you brilliantly interjected the proverb. That’s a hell of a wise saying :)
I’ll take it as a personal compliment :)
But being a small minority in the Georgian SSR, Ossetians too acquired a lot of wisdom on the subject of guests and hosts.
Well, they were recent immigrants to the area.
Funny however, several of my neighbors are Ossetians, they despise Russia, and care greatly for Georgia.
As one said to me the other day, in Georgia my children can learn Ossetian, in Russia they must learn Russian.
“Bush and his fascist policies ”
95 % people on internet have no clue what fascism means. It’s idealistic doctrine promoting physically healthy human and united nation. Nor did Bush close fast fod restaurants, nor did he united nation. In fact, he left nation in big disunity.
I don’t know what have you red about fascism, but nor media manipulation, nor militarist imperialism themselves automatically aren’t “fascist”. Its specific ideology.
Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.
Let’s check these against Bush’s policies:
1)Strong leadership – check. By creating unconstitutional and unlawful acts such as the PATRIOT act, Bush seeks to maintain an iron grip on the US media and personal communications of US citizens.
2)Singular identity – check. Bush reaffirmed the importance to create a strong sense of national unity, and maintained an “it’s us versus them” approach when it comes to issues like immigration, terrorism etc… You can see how he creates a sense of nationhood.
3)Will and ability to commit violence – double check. Bush was a master at this – he manipulated the US people, using the US media, culture and so on to make the US people fully support the Iraqi war, to strongly distrust Muslims, and to maintain war ( invade other Middle East states to “spread democracy”).
I’m afraid Bush’s policies are nothing but fascist.
It’s superficial view and these points are not enough. If you look closer to society, peacefull Japan is so much more fascist than Bush’s or Obama’s USA.
How could something which directly affects the lives of US nationals and the US foreign police be considered superficial?
Would you care to elaborate?
ok, if working, TV watching, overweight American is convinced that it would be good to him if government will limit some of his freedoms and invade foreign country, does it also make him drop watching cheap entertainment and start interest in classic art, drop junk food and start do sports, and not work for his American dream but for greater good?
No, he still is overweight, worthless entertainment watching, working for his own individual American dream, citizen, just convinced about some government actions. This is why it’s not fascist.
I personally see nothing even remotely resembling fascism in the internal policies in the USA. External – that’s another story.
Oh. I thought I had laid out my argument simply enough.
Surely the creation of “detention centres” to hold undesirables mirrors Hitler’s early stages of his Final Solution – firstly he labelled the Jews as being evil and corrupt, then he began to round them up.
The US is doing the same with Muslims, and though I am aware this may sound far fetched, I believe that this is what’s truly happening.
@Surely the creation of “detention centres” to hold undesirables mirrors Hitler’s early stages of his Final Solution – firstly he labelled the Jews as being evil and corrupt, then he began to round them up. The US is doing the same with Muslims, and though I am aware this may sound far fetched, I believe that this is what’s truly happening.
Oh really.
And in meanwhile what is Russia doing to the Muslims?
How many Russian Muslims were detained (including in massive round-ups and indiscriminate “cleansing operations”), how many were kidnapped, how many simply disappeared, how many were killed by the soldiers, and how many were killed by the police? Including in Chechnya.
Because we’re talking about thousands in EACH case (as in: thousands kidnapped, thousands killed, thousands disappeared (Nacht-und-Nebel), etc., by the government). Some examples proved in the international court:
http://www.srji.org/en/legal/cases
The newest case decided (another double “disappearance”, in 2002):
http://www.srji.org/en/news/2010/02/86/
This is just not happening in America.
And before you bring Afghanistan, yeah, SURELY the Soviets behaved so much better there too!
You can deny it all you like, but the fact is that if you live in the US, you are solely at the hands of an administration which is just as dangerous and unpredictable as say, Iran’s or Pakistan’s.
What’s scary about the situation is that if the US media is ready to report on war crimes in Iran, then there is always a deathly silence about all the strange camps that are being built across the US, filled with tens of thousands of plastic blue coffins.
There was only one reporter who even said anything about the creation of the North American Union. Never heard of it? This is because you are only kept informed of the things the government wants you to know, much like in Hitler’s days.
Next, I follow your first link. There is no information at all about any legal cases.
Why do you even start talking about Russia? Have I ever denied that Russia has commited war crimes?
I was talking about the US and will continue to do so. Stay on topic.
Deny what? Your wild, stupid claims the American Muslims were “labelled as being evil and corrupt” in 2001 by the US government which then “began to round them up” during the next decade?
@then there is always a deathly silence about all the strange camps that are being built across the US, filled with tens of thousands of plastic blue coffins.
And there is also a “strange silence” on the subject of dozens of mass graves across Chechnya filled with actual corpses.
The alleged “strange camps” were supposedly built long time ago by FEMA, not “are being built”. Now go to any of the US conspiracy theories’ forums to discuss for whom and when it will be used by the “Zionist Occupational Government” / the United Nations / “Reptilians” /Communists (one or all of the above, I guess the One-World Communist Jews from Outer Space), beacuse you won’t discuss this with me.
@Stay on topic.
How about you “stay on topic”.
I can see that you are getting very angry Robert; this can only be a sign that you are unable to express your point of view.
– If you don’t believe my claims about the label that Muslims have recieved in the US ( and much of the Western world), then you only need to turn on your TV. Watch some Family Guy, perhaps South Park, maybe some Fox news, which really is effective at alienating Muslims. You can watch a film such as Team America, or even flick a page of your newspaper and find offensive drawing of Mohammed. Yes, these examples may seem trivial, but they exist all over the place none the less.
– Clearly there isn’t a strange silence about the graves in Chechnya if it is widely publicised in the media, and if you are aware of it and communicate this to me.
Don’t label me as one of those NWO loonies; this only proves just how judgemental your society has raised you to be. I’m not asking you to research anything, but the FEMA camps are there, and always will be there. People drive past them every day; they exist whether or not you like it. Tell me, if you close your eyes and cover them with the palms of your hands, do that mean that the rest of the world doesn’t exist?
– How very childish of you to simply parrot what I have said. The topic was the US and fascism, you deviated from it like you always do and started talking about Russia.
The point that you argue is very much superficial, and not even relevant.
What does being fit and educated have in common with fascism? Where did you get your definition of fascism, if you really are part of the “five percent” who know what fascism means?
I think you are confusing fascism with nationalism, and the belief that a certain race is superior to all others. This was the case indeed in Nazi Germany, where Aryans were encouraged to better themselves physically and mentally. But fascism is a political ideology, and has nothing to do with what you have said.
In any case, it is easier to scare an overweight, uneducated slob into giving up his rights than a healthy intellectual, wouldn’t you agree?
Well, Russians are encouraged by the state to view themselves as culturally and racially superior to others.
Just look at their attitude to Caucasians for example.
Do you have any proof to back up your claims?
Please, I have a suspicion that you are lying. You’re an adult person, surely, and are capable of having a normal debate. Lying doesn’t solve anything.
You ignore my whole argument about fascism and health. Why do you do this? What is this strange anomaly that is going round? Or have you people never studied politics?
Well Mark, Russian attitudes to minorities are fairly well known.
The number of Russian neo-Nazis is estimated at around 85,000, “half of the world’s total”, according to western news agencies.[4][5]. The director of the Human Rights Bureau, Alexander Brod, stated that surveys show xenophobia and other racist expressions are prevalent in 50 percent of Russians.
Hostility towards Caucasians
In Russia, the term Caucasian is a collective term referring to anyone descended from the native ethnicities of the Caucasus. In Russian slang, Caucasian people and Central Asians fall into the category of black. This is not associated with skin colour but with hair colour and non-Slavic facial appearance.[9]
Several pogroms, directed particularly against Caucasian merchants and migrants have been reported in the Russian capital, Moscow, and in other Russian cities.[10] There was a pogrom on April 21, 2001 in Yasenevo Market in Moscow against merchants from the Caucasus, and well-organised attacks on Caucasian businesses and migrants in the eastern Russian town Ekaterinburg.[10] Racially motivated attacks against Armenians have grown so common that the president of Armenia, Robert Kocharyan, raised the issue with high-ranking Russian officials.[11]
Hostility towards Central Asians/Muslims
Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the rise of the Muslim population in Russia and the Second Chechen War, many Russians (including government authorities) have associated Islam and Muslims with terrorism and domestic crimes.[12][13][14][15] In August 2007, a video of 2 ethnic Russian neo-Nazis beheading two Muslim men, one from Dagestan in the Caucasus and one from Tajikistan appeared on the internet.[16] Three years earlier, a nine-year old Tajik girl was stabbed to death in Saint Petersburg by suspected far-right skinheads.[17][18]. In December 2008 an email, containing a picture of the severed head of a man identified as Salekh Azizov , was sent to the Moscow Human Rights Bureau . It was sent by a group called Russian Nationalists’ Combat Group and has led to protests from the Tajik Government.
Hostility towards Jews
In March 2008, allegations of blood libel appeared in posters in Novosibirsk.[20] The Federation of Jewish Communities of Russia expressed their concern about a rising number of attacks targeting Jews, calling it part of “a recent surge in anti-Semitic manifestations” in Russia.
Hostility towards Chinese
Russian attitudes towards the People’s Republic of China have focused on the fear of Russia (especially the Russian Far East and Siberia) being overwhelmed by Chinese migrants, because of China’s much larger population.[22] It is also noted that there is illegal immigration coming from China into Southeastern Russia, especially after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991.[23]
[edit]Hostility towards Africans
In Saint Petersburg, three Africans have been killed in hate-crime attacks since the mid 2000’s. “Monkey” insults and non-lethal assaults are so frequent that students have ceased reporting them[24][25].
Negative attitude towards Africans traces back to the days of the Soviet Union, in spite of its internationalist propaganda. As a part of its support of decolonisation in Africa, the Soviet Union offered free education for citizens of African states. African students (as well as other foreign students) were placed in many higher education institutions throughout the country, most famously at Peoples’ Friendship University of Russia, then known as the Patrice Lumumba Peoples’ Friendship University, after the Congolese revolutionary and prime minister Patrice Lumumba.
[edit]Murder of Anti-Racism and Anti-Fascist Activists
Nikolai Girenko, a prominent ethnographer and anthropologist, was shot to death in his St. Petersburg apartment. Girenko was a key adviser in 15 ethnic hate crime trials.[26]Timur Kacharava, a Russian antifascist of Georgian descent and a fourth year philosophy student at St. Petersburg State University, was stabbed to death by a group of young skinheads. Kacharava had been known for antagonizing neo-Nazis in the streets.[27] The main defendant in the trial that followed almost two years later was 14 years old.[28]
On 19 January 2009, while leaving a news conference in Moscow less than half a mile from the Kremlin, Stanislav Markelov, a human rights lawyer and journalist was gunned down. Anastasia Baburova, a journalist for Novaya Gazeta who tried to come to Markelov’s assistance, was also shot and killed in the attack.[29][30][31]
On 16 November 2009, Ivan Khutorskoi, former punk singer and head of the security during concerts of antifascist has been killed in a suburb of Moscow, two bullets in the head. He also was known for organizing self-defense classes for antifascists individuals, whom are prone to attack for distributing anti-racist leaflets. Khutorskoi sometimes provided security at press conferences of Stanislav Markelov.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_post-Soviet_Russia
The Great Danger If Russia Stays on the Path It’s On
By Andreas Umland
Dr. Andreas Umland teaches at the National Taras Shevchenko University of Kyiv, edits the book series “Soviet and Post-Soviet Politics and Society,” and compiles the biweekly “Russian Nationalism Bulletin.” This article is a summary of an interview that he gave to the Russian-language information agency “Washington ProFile.”
The roots of Russia’s currently rising nationalism are threefold: pre-Soviet, Soviet and post-Soviet. The idea of Moscow as the “Third Rome,” i.e. of a special Russian mission in world history, goes back several centuries. Russian nationalism had been – contrary to what many in the West believed – an important element of Soviet ideology ever since the 1930s. Like in the early 19th century when Moscow’s so-called Slavophiles applied German nativist thought to Russian conditions, ideas of various Russian nationalist movements today are often imported from the West.
A factor accounting for Russia’s recent nationalist resurgence is the mode of thinking learned in Soviet schools and universities – a Manichean world-view which sharply distinguishes between “us” and “them.” Although the basic definitions of “us” and “them” have changed, a number of Soviet stereotypes, for instance, about the US have survived glasnost until today.
The major determinant in Russian nationalism’s recent rise is that the Kremlin’s political technologists have discovered it as a tool suitable to reconfigure political discourse in general. In the Kremlin’s new political reality, Putin is not competing with alternative programs or parties. Putin’s opponents are not socialists, liberals or other Russian political movements. Instead, Putin is juxtaposed to Chechen terrorists, Estonian fascists, Georgian russophobes, Ukrainian neo-Nazis, American imperialists, Western conspirators, and, in general, to various non-Russians who desire to destroy, divide or, at least, humiliate Russia. In this atmosphere of paranoia, it is only logical that those opposing Putin are not acknowledged to constitute legitimate (not to speak of useful) political opposition. Instead, they are represented as a “fifth column” of the West, as traitors who are, in Putin’s words, skulking around foreign embassies like jackals.
This has made politics an easy game for the Kremlin: If the government is busy to defend the country’s pride and integrity, one cannot expect that all niceties of mass media independence, pluralistic public debate, or fair party competition can be observed. Instead of debating what is best for the country, political discussant are searching for a plausible pretext to label the opposite side an enemy of Russia.
The radical, often neo-fascist wing of Russian nationalism, naturally, has been rising together with the movement as a whole. To be sure, both the Kremlin and mainstream public discourse demonstratively condemn manifest expressions of racism. Yet, the extremists – whether active in the neo-Nazi skinhead movement or publishing in high-brow conspirological journals – are part and parcel of the xenophobic hysteria that much of Russian society has recently gotten into. A widespread fear among Russian and Western analysts observing the rise of Russian nationalism is now that the Kremlin could loose (or, perhaps, is already loosing) control of the genie it has let out of the bottle. Russian nationalism might transform from a political technology tool of the Kremlin into a societal force of a proportion beyond the limits of manipulation by the cynics in the Kremlin.
A main difference between Russian and Western forms of nationalism is that, in the contemporary West, the intellectual and political mainstream of a given country usually more or less clearly distances itself from that country’s – sometimes, also rather strong – nationalist movement. While the Russian mainstream is quick to condemn racist violence, its relationship to the world view standing behind such violence is, in contrast, more ambivalent. Thus, authors who, in the West, would be regarded as being far beyond the pale of permissible discourse, such as the ultra-nationalist publicist Aleksandr Prokhanov or ideologue of fascism Aleksandr Dugin, are esteemed participants in political and intellectual debates at prime-time TV shows. The bizarre, pseudo-scientific ideas of the late neo-racist theoretician Lev Gumilev are required reading in Russia’s middle and higher schools. Gumilev teaches that world history is defined by the rise and fall of ethnic groups that are biological units under the influence, moreover, of cosmic emissions.
In recent years, the government has started to prosecute racist violence more actively than before. This is not the least, one suspects, because the growing skinhead movement is damaging Russia’s international reputation. Extreme nationalism has already made the Russian Federation an unattractive study destination for dark-skinned international students who are regularly beaten and, sometimes, killed at Russia’s university towns. In trying to stem this tide, the government deals, however, only with the symptoms of the phenomenon. To get to the root of the problem, the whole logic of current Russian politics would need to be changed – something that a well-meaning ministerial bureaucrat can, obviously, not do.
If one extrapolates Russia’s development during the last eight years into the future, we will not only witness a second Cold War. The Russian Federation might become something like a new apartheid state where foreigners and non-Slavic citizens are treated separately from white citizens of Russia by governmental and non-governmental institutions. Some observers do, in this connection, not hesitate to speak of a “Weimar Russia” comparing post-Soviet conditions to those in inter-war Germany. Though it is not likely (yet) that Russia will turn fascist, it seems even less probable that Russian society will become more tolerant soon.
The Kremlin needs to change fundamentally the way it defines Russia’s relationship to the outside world. It needs to take resolute action against the already considerable infiltration of various social institutions – schools, universities, youth movements, mass media, etc. – with radical nationalism. If this does not happen, the Russians will be a lonely people and Moscow an isolated international actor, in the new century.
http://hnn.us/articles/47377.html
Russia Criticized At UN Over Racism, Media Killings
February 04, 2009
GENEVA (Reuters) — Russia must do more to stop violence against minorities, torture by the police and army, murders of journalists, and other crimes, delegates to a UN rights body have said.
“We are concerned at the trend of racism and xenophobia, which is resulting in a continuing rise in racial attacks,” a delegate from South Africa, which often backs Russia, said during a meeting of the United Nations Human Rights Council on February 4
Other issues raised at the first Russian appearance for a review process of the 47-member council included political abductions in Chechnya and the North Caucasus, Internet child pornography, and limits on independent civil-society bodies.
Russian officials agreed racism was a problem but said they were tackling it through education and monitoring of extremist groups, and noted that such violence was not always fatal.
Russia is a democratic state “based on the rule of law,” and its people enjoy equal rights, a report presented to the council by Justice Minister Aleksandr Konovalov declared. “Freedom of the press and media is guaranteed,” it added.
Every effort is being made to combat extremism and ethnic violence, Konovalov said, and a special police unit had been set up to track activities of such groups under a law on fighting extremism and terrorism.
But this was contested at a briefing by independent Russian human rights groups — including the widely respected Memorial, set up just before the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 — who said the law was being used to limit their activities.
Reviews For All
All members of the UN are expected to undergo such a review every four years, though the process has been criticized by rights groups for being superficial and tainted by politics.
China faces a review on February 6, and the United States — which is not a member of the council — comes later.
A new review process has been billed as a key change in the nearly three-year-old council, which replaced a discredited predecessor in 2006.
But true to form, many Asian and African countries that rely on Russian support to fend off criticism of their own policies generally had little but praise for Russia’s record.
European Union countries, backed by New Zealand — and even Algeria, which, like South Africa, is part of an Islamic and African group that usually works with Russia in the body — urged Moscow to come down hard on racists.
The issue of legal and media freedom — highlighted by the daylight street killing in Moscow two weeks ago of lawyer Stanislav Markelov and journalist Anastasia Baburova — was raised by Australia, Japan, and Britain, among others.
Konovalov said interference with the media was barred by law, but investigation was hindered “by a lack of witnesses.”
http://www.rferl.org/content/Russia_Criticized_At_UN_Over_Racism_Media_Killings/1379375.html
Ethnic Cleansing in Russia
Putin stokes the flames of xenophobia by targeting non-Slavs in Georgia.
By FRED WEIR
It started out as geopolitical bullying, with the Kremlin applying an economic headlock to pressure an obstreperous little neighbor, Georgia, to return to Moscow’s fold. But a related campaign against “Georgian interests” in Russia, involving mass arrests of alleged illegal immigrants and a crackdown on Georgian-owned businesses, has dangerously fuelled xenophobia in Russia’s streets and buoyed the country’s rising neo-fascist movement.
President Vladimir Putin personally triggered the anti-Georgian frenzy by complaining, in a televised meeting, that non-Slavs from the Caucasus region dominate farmer’s markets in most cities, incurring the wrath of native Russians.
“The indignation of citizens is right,” Putin said. “(We must) protect the interests of Russian manufacturers and Russia’s native population.” Putin may have been trying to gather support for his tough policy against Georgia, which includes a complete cutoff of trade, transport and even postal links. But in targeting Georgian businesses, he handed a gift to the outright racist Movement Against Illegal Immigration (DPNI), which calls for expelling all non-Slavs from Russian cities, whether they are Russian citizens or not.
Though Slavs make up about 80 percent of the population, there are millions of darker-skinned citizens from Russia’s north Caucasus, Volga regions and Siberia. Added to that are an estimated 10 million “guest workers” from former Soviet central Asia and Caucasus countries. There are about 1 million Georgians working in Russia, sending home some $2 billion annually, a major component of Georgia’s GDP.
Hatred of non-Slavs is a combustible political issue in Russia. “Russians are the most discriminated-against group in Russia, and we help them to find their voice,” says Alexander Belov, chief ideologue of DPNI, Russia’s fastest-growing grassroots organization. Lately many Russians have been mobilizing, with Belov’s encouragement.
Six days of rioting in the northern town of Kondopoga in late August left at least three people dead and forced hundreds of Caucasians to flee. “The local people want them to go back where they came from,” says Belov. “That’s democracy. The rights of the majority should be respected.” Similar upheavals have been reported over the past six months, hitting far-flung Russian towns in Saratov, Chita, Rostov, Astrakhan and Irkutsk regions. A September poll conducted by the independent Levada Center found that 57 percent of Russians thought Kondopoga-style violence could break out in their town, while 52 percent said they agreed with DPNI’s main slogan: “Russia for the Russians.”
Within days of Putin’s remarks, police descended on markets around the country, rounding up thousands of Caucasians—not only Georgians—whose documents showed any discrepancies. (Endemic corruption virtually ensures discrepancies in peoples’ official documents.) Moscow schools were ordered to report children with Georgian-sounding names to police, so their parents could be investigated. By late October, about 100 Georgian “illegal immigrants” were being deported to Tbilisi on special daily military flights.
Dozens of Georgian-owned companies have been closed down, on pretexts ranging from sanitary violations to tax evasion. The campaign even reached prominent Russians of Georgian heritage. Sculptor Zurab Tsereteli, creator of several well-known Moscow monuments, found himself accused of “misappropriating” 2.1 million rubles (about $80,000) from the Russian Arts Academy that he heads. Georgian-born Grigory Chkhartishvili, who writes some of Russia’s most beloved detective fiction under the pen name Boris Akunin, was targeted by the tax police.
“It is no longer safe to be a dark-haired person in Russia,” says Chkhartishvili. “What’s happening to Georgians today is ethnic cleansing. The Russian state is sick with the virus of xenophobia.”
Georgia has been the scene of intense rivalry between Russia and the West since it broke from the USSR in 1991. Seeking levers of influence, Moscow backed successful early ’90s rebellions in two ethnically different Georgian territories, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, whose de facto independence is protected by Russian peacekeeping troops to this day. Washington scored points by persuading Georgia to host the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which opened this year, to carry newly-flowing Caspian crude to Western markets, bypassing Russia’s pipeline network. Russo-Georgian relations went into total freefall after the 2003 “Rose Revolution” ousted the cautious ex-Soviet foreign minister Eduard Shevardnadze and brought a young U.S.-trained lawyer and fiery Georgian nationalist, Mikhael Saakashvili, to power in Tbilisi. Saakashvili has vowed to re-unite his fractured country and lead it into NATO before his term of office expires in 2009. In early October, NATO agreed to enter into an “intensified dialogue” with Georgia about membership.
In late September, Georgian police arrested four Russian officers and charged them with spying. After a furious reaction from the Kremlin, the men were released to European mediators, but the die was already cast in Moscow. Putin launched a full economic embargo, ordered the Russian Black Sea Fleet to hold war games off Georgia’s coast and authorized the domestic crackdown against resident Georgians.
Georgia’s two breakaway statelets, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, have used the crisis to appeal to Moscow to unilaterally recognize their independence, a move that Georgians fear could lead to the irreversible division of their country.
“This is the biggest fear in Tbilisi today, that Russia will formalize those (statelets) by making them Russian protectorates with permanent Russian military bases,” says Archil Gegeshidze, an expert with the Georgian Foundation for Strategic and International Studies in Tbilisi. Russia insists it has no such intentions, but Putin has repeatedly warned that this could change if the West recognizes the independence of Kosovo, the Albanian-populated Serbian province seized by NATO in a 1999 war.
Meanwhile, the escalating campaign against Georgians is driving internal Russian politics down dark and uncharted avenues. “The Kremlin is appealing to Russian society’s nationalistic moods, and that’s very dangerous,” says Fyodor Lukyanov, editor of the foreign policy journal Russia in Global Affairs. “This kind of device is easy to use, but very hard to control.”
http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/2887/
To be fair, there are many good Russians who struggle daily against the increasingly nationalistic and dangerous rhetoric of the current administration of Russia.
ROFL!!! Then please explain this to the main stream media which collectively thought Bush couldn’t find his way out of a paper bag because he was such a dolt. Which is it? Bush the genius, or Bush the court jester?
barb,
are you trying to find logic among people who (a) 14 months after Bush being out of office (b) in response to a terrorist act in Moscow explain that Bush’s policies are fascist?! May I suggest some simpler explanation… psychiatric disorder commonly known as Bush Derangement Syndrome. And as it is the case with any psychiatric disorders, coherence is not required.
Barb,
You are absolutely right: Bush is a man of very limited thinking abilities. All the despicable things done under Bush’s administration were not the products of Bush’s feeble and rather benign mind. Cheney and many other fairly intelligent Republicans deserve the credit.
This is completely nonsensical.
In the first place Bush does not write laws, Congress does. You give him too much credit.
In the second place, the only body that can decide whether a law is or is not constitutional is federal judiciary and no court has ever found the Patriot Act unconstitutional. Just because the Kremlin propagandists told you that does not make it so.
In the third place, to claim that Bush could or did make the public “fully support the Iraq war” is simply untrue. I cannot recall a more divisive issue since the Vietnam conflict
Firstly, no Kremlin propagandists could’ve told me anything, because I don’t live in Russia. The UK is free from Kremlin’s influence wouldn’t you agree?
Next, here is an excperpt from Wikipedia:
The USA PATRIOT Act has generated a great deal of controversy since its enactment. Opponents of the Act have been quite vocal in asserting that it was passed opportunistically after the September 11 terrorist attacks, believing there to have been little debate. They view the Act as one that was hurried through the Senate with little change before it was passed. (Senators Patrick Leahy and Russell Feingold proposed amendments to modify the final revision.)[10][188][189] The sheer magnitude of the Act itself was noted by Michael Moore in his controversial film Fahrenheit 9/11. In one of the scenes of the movie, he records Congressman Jim McDermott alleging that no Senator read the bill[190] and John Conyers, Jr. as saying “We don’t really read most of the bills. Do you know what that would entail if we read every bill that we passed?” Congressman Conyers then answers his own rhetorical question, asserting that if they did it would “slow down the legislative process”.[191] As a dramatic device, Moore then hired an ice-cream van and drove around Washington, D.C. with a loud speaker, reading out the Act to puzzled passers-by, which included a few Senators.[192] However, Moore was not the only commentator to notice that not many people had read the Act — when Dahlia Lithwick and Julia Turne for Slate asked “How bad is Patriot, anyway?” they decided that it was “Hard to tell”, and that
The ACLU, in a new fact sheet challenging the DOJ Web site, wants you to believe that the act threatens our most basic civil liberties. Ashcroft and his roadies call the changes in law ‘modest and incremental.’ Since almost nobody has read the legislation, much of what we think we know about it comes third-hand and spun. Both advocates and opponents are guilty of fear-mongering and distortion in some instances.”
Well, your lack of knowledge may be excusable since you are not an American. As I said, there is only one entity that can decide whether the law is unconstitutional, and that’s the judiciary.
Despite some popular delusions, members of Congress, movie makers, Wikipedia, ACLU, entertainment figures, or public at large have no say in what is constitutional. Whatever they feel matters nothing
Although legally that is very much correct, I have a big problem with what you have said.
It stems from this: democracy, as a definition, is a government ” of the people, by the people, for the people”.
If the public at large ( ie the majority) does not have a say in what matters, and their “feelings” are ignored, then how could one possibly call the US a democracy? You said this yourself, and I find it truly shocking that someone can say such a thing without doing a double take and realising just how hypocritical this makes the US and its ideas look.
Correction. The U.S.A. is not a ‘democracy’ by straight definition. Old Poland sure was though…one dissenting vote, and the idea was scrapped. The U.S.A. is a ‘representative republic’. This, along with the three separate branches of government; legislative, executive, and judicial create a system…however imperfect, which insures that one person, one idea or one party can run rough shod over the whole. Unlike the Russian judiciary which seems to be cow-towing to the Kremlin’s/Putin’s wishes, the American Judiciary is still quite independent. Oh, and one other thing: just because a Supreme Court decision may strike something down, does not mean it is the end of the matter. Congress can take up the issue from another “viewpoint” (for lack of a better word). (Example: Roe v. Wade—It may be “constitutional” at this time, but Congress still has ways to bring up this issue if it wished(Such as the Hyde Amendment which forbids federal funding of abortion), and other challenging court cases (Such as the rights of the father cases) may be presented which view this decision from another angle. This could result in an overturn of Roe v. Wade by the Supreme Court) For Congress to function properly (and it will always be a political BEAST) it is extremely important for all legal voting Americans to be involved in some shape, manner or form in their government (including local) It is sad to see a country with such great potential as Russia being railroaded to her demise by a few power hunger ignoramuses. My heart and prayers go out to all those who suffer the consequences of their ‘leaders’.
correction: “can NOT run rough shod” maya copa…or however you spell it.
I understand where you are coming from, but it isn’t enough to simply copy/paste quotes without presenting them in a relevant context. That’s called spam, I believe.
I have a slight case of Americophobia, if you haven’t noticed it.
Try another post like the one we just deleted, and you’ll be banned, moron. No joke.
@Mark,
Don’t just tell us what you believe is enough evidence. I seen those photos of your mangy gang’s handiwork. Not just in Chechnya but in NJ.
Mascali are disrespectful in any host country. Now in Ukraine the have the nerve to continue trashing our language and literature. Here is an example of Burning Ukrainian History books by your filthy mangy hoard. Before they would have killed the authors. Killing professors, priests and anybody in a village that could read.
Why do we care what happens when Rashans have problems? Other than when they will go “Wilding” against the defenseless.
http://poslezavtra.com.ua/v-krymu-sozhgli-knigi-po-istorii-ukrainy-foto-video/
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Without any disrespect to you, you really need to improve your English. What comment are you replying to?
I don’t expect RTR to understand (he seems to be living in his own world), but I got some unexpected (or maybe disingenuous) help from Russian foreign minister:
The terrorist act might have been hatched in Afghanistan. It is no secret that there is no-man land on Afghan-Pakistani border. It once more proves how important is coordinating anti-terrorism efforts.
Well, maybe if you don’t throw monkey wrenches at people that are fighting a war on Afghan-Pakistani border, such coordination would be easier to achieve. If not – don’t be surprised when you suffer the consequences.
Felix,
Would you please remind me how the US air base in Kyrgizia currently helps fight the terrorists on this “no-man land on Afghan-Pakistani border”?
I can see how it was important during the initial invasion of Afghanistan as one of the places to launch the invasion from. But what is its purpose now? Why can’t the American planes fly directly into Kabul without having to go out of their way to stop in Manas?
Dear RTR,
You will have to improve your memory without me. Please consult your physician. Sorry.
Unfortunately, your memory loss is obvious from your posts. I didn’t expect you to understand.
Dearest Felix,
My memory and mental abilities may be less than what they were in my youth, but they certainly far surpass your own, as demonstrated yesterday in this thread:
Given that you confuse two totally different famous Soviet singers – Eduard Khil and Lev Leschenko – it is you who needs to worry about memory loss.
Your refusal to answer my simple question here just shows that you have no idea why the Americans need the Manas air base now for their Afghanistan activities. They are in Manas not to help Afghanistan but to help wrestle the control over Central Asia from Russia.
Question for the author of this blog:
When the US is hit by a terrorist attack that will make 9/11 look like a kindergarten picnic from the 1950s, who will you blame?
The Russian government want us to view this attack as part of a “global” struggle against terrorism; Its not.
The New York 9/11 attack and 7/7 attack on the London underground were organised and sponsored by groups outside our nations, this attack in Moscow was planned and executed from within by Russian Federation citizens and by its nature is purely an internal Russian problem created by themselves through years of vicious and oppressive policies perpetrated against their own citizens in the caucuses.
I will agree that innocent people have paid a terrible price, but when you hear scum like Putin screaming for vengeance wanting to “destroy” the enemy you can understand how this terrible situation in the caucuses has descended into chaos and barbarisum.Putin should be seeking justice not vengeance.
People will be severely punished for this attack, but I fear it will be random and innocents in the caucuses will pay a heavy price for a crime they did not commit.
Rather than call for destruction Putin/Medvedev should tackle the cause of the problem. A good start would be to invest in the region to tackle the 80% youth unemployment.
An even better start would be to stop the Russian tradition of raping, murdering and killing the locals….
are you sure you want to bring countries like Lithuania into the equation, where the pro-Nazi veteran party is flourishing, anti-Russian sentiment has become a national image, and Russian monuments are torn down, graves are desecrated, and Russians attacked on the streets?
:D :D :D
Are you sure you don’t spread the RUSSIAN MEDIA (MADIA) propaganda crap because that’s what you liked to hear about Lithuania because you hate Lithuania so madly?
I am sure you do just that for what ever reason, dear slave and servant of Putin and his friends.
I base my sources on what the Western media says, but I also read the Russian, Chinese and other news sources for comparison.
Here is my message in condensed form: I think before I write,
What?!!!! Is there no passion anywhere in your soul?
If I were to let out my passion, when I write on this blog, then I would be censored by the owner. I would rather write calmly, in the hope that my words will impact at least someone, instead of alienating more people.
Mark,
They are trying to provoke you, so that they can ban you.
@They are trying to provoke you, so that they can ban you.
Newsflash:
They can ban you at any given moment without even any reason at all. They do not need to ask anyone for permission, and you can’t go complain anywhere and cry about this violating your alleged “human right” without being laughed at in your face (except maybe to the other retards who would understand you).
And this is why you should be rather visiting the blog of “the president” Dima Medvedev, where I guess you can discuss such topics as “USA and fascism” safely with the many like-minded people.
That would be boring. I like adversity. I missed my calling: legal wrangling.
why are some of you crying because of these russians??? LOKK HOW IT STARTED AND NEVER FORGET THE CHECHEN GENOCIDE!!!!!!
http://www.slide.com/r/n1YIAkpT7j_7133CQwW5oEbrOEaixqfb?previous_view=TICKER&previous_action=TICKER_ITEM_CLICK&ciid=3530822107891750118
sascha_hero Germany (aka “Kadyrov fan” etc.):
stfu & gtfo.
As usually, Latynina said it best. Russia for all its chest-beating doesn’t have competence or ethics to fight terrorism. Terrorist can afford to be sloppy – therefore it’s fairly easy to trace back how the plot was hatched, who was paid off, which cop escorted the explosives to prevent accidents en route, etc. And suicide bombers usually don’t worry about being caught. What is not possible is to prevent these acts from happening in the first place – despite terrorists being sloppy.
Latynina concludes, Russia suffers from terrorism. But not in the way US and UK suffer – but in the way Pakistan and Somali are suffering. Explosions continue for 11 years, and there is little that governments can do.
Grim picture – failed state!
Well guys I see the discussion now has grown realy heated but let’s never forget that whatever crimes Putin regime commited and it did, indeed innocent people got killed and hurt. I can understand the rage and grief of these women, but behind every terrorist attack there should be some masterminds and whoever is behind the attack FSB (and I guess it’s very likely) or the rebels it’s an outrageous crime to be unanimously condemned. But still I hold we have to condemn the crime, not the ones we just assume to be culprits until we know the truth. But I’m 100% sure there could be no justification for deliberate attacks on civilians. Yes, I’m sure Chechen have a right to fight back and wage an all-out war against the tyranny for their independence. But those thinking of themselves as a belligerent party should abide the laws of war. And war crimes of your enemy may serve (sometimes) as an explanation of your own but still can never justify them. If it was ok to pay your enemies back in the same coin the Allies should have gassed all the Germans after WW2, especially if we could apply here the concept of a collective guilt and people’s responsibility for their own government’s deeds. Even ends justify means logic doesn’t work here because how attacking civilians can help Chechen people?
But sure whoever is the culprit FSB or Islamists it’s one more reason for Russians to ask themselves if the authoritarian regime they seem to support can guarantee their safety?
And as to the Sochi 2014 issue I guess there’s no reason for other countries to stick out their necks for Putin. It’s really a delicate issue. Yes terrorists should get no reward, but here we deal with the sutuation when blatantly inhumane and irresponsible policy of the government actually creates conditions for terrorism to flourish. And why should other countries to risk their people’s lives to support the regime which starts wars, both on its own people and neiboring countries, and then wants to present itself as a victim.
Because whoever’s behind the attack Putin with his policy is the first to blame. Sure putinism is the main threat to Russian people and source of violence and destabilization
Andrew wrote: “There are about 1 million Georgians working in Russia, sending home some $2 billion annually, a major component of Georgia’s GDP.”
Correct me if I am wrong, Andrew, but the entire population of Georgia – including infants and old people – is 5 million people. So, about half of the adult male working-age Georgian population work in Russia.
So, what kind of a hellhole is Georgia and its economy? Shouldn’t Georgians, instead of attacking their Ossetian neighbors, start worrying about building their own economy? It’s worse than in Africa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita
51 Russia 15,039
54 Latvia 14,304
.
.
103 Swaziland 5,839
113 Georgia 4,747
120 Congo 4,156
I know, I know: it is all Russians’ fault.
Why do you get upset when Russia starts limiting the number of illegal Georgian workers in Russia? Here in USA, we are not at war with Ukraine, Georgia or Russia, and yet people from Ukraine, Georgia and Russia find it almost impossible to get visas to come and visit their relatives in USA because the US government is afraid that they may stay and work here.
RTR:
Man, wake up! What are talking about about beinh like: instead of attacking their Ossetian NEIGHBORS (!) they’d better build up their economy. First South Ossetians aren’t their neighbors, their territory is a legitimate part of Georgians’ country and whatever you may say about South Ossetia having never been a part of Georgia as an independent state, such status is recognized by most countries in the world except Russia and some worlds outcasts bribed by Putin-Medvedev junta into doing it. Moreover the border separating Georgia from Russia and Ossetia proper, i.e so called North Ossetia and Russian Federation isn’t arbitrary but rather natural. Caucasus Range separates Georgia from the Northern part of the isthmus. So South Ossetia can’t even be regarded as a rebel nation striving for independence since Ossetians have their own legitimate homeland to the North but as an enclave and has no more grounds to demand independence than Arab neigborhoods of Marseille, boasting even bigger population than this entire so called country.
But talking about the Georgians for them the existance of this Russian pet is a major threat, not because this territory is so precious, actually there’s nothing to fight for in this dirt poor mountainous nowhere, but because Russian control over SO nearly makes Georgia cut in half while giving Russia a foothold on their land. So my question to you is: can a country focus on developing its one economy while feeling threatened, while your neighbor (much stronger and biggere than you) is trying to undermine your government, twart your foreign policy and secure occupation of significant chunks of your territory. Or you have to put political and starategic tasks first and take to economic issues next?
Actually it’s impossible to separate economy from policy. For example, one of the ways to boost Georgian economy is to use its potential as a fuel transit country. And that’s exactly the main reason why Russia doesn’t leave Goergia alone. Because it’d create an alternative to Russian strategy of becoming Europe’s chief oil and gas supplier and thus making EU more and more dependent and compliant. And is it any surprise that the Georgians view their place and their interests in this game somehow differently. Their choice of aligning themselves with the West and its values has both ideological and economic rationales. And that’s just makes RuSSia really mad.
RTR,
I just love how instead of commenting on the insane raving of Russian President-Generals (“Heroes of Russia”), and I specifically asked you to comment, you said I “omit a line”, when then you yourself mit the very NEXT line.
(Cops say Gozman is a young member of the Russian organized crime group, “Bratva”.)
And here is an another quote from the Hero of Russia, who supposedly does such a good job protecting the people in Moscow while “not” killing the women and children in Chechnya:
Asked to estimate the militants‘ potential, Kadyrov replied, “They don‘t have any potential.”
Moreover, there are no more than “a dozen or two” Chechen residents among the militants, and the rest are foreign mercenaries, Kadyrov said.
“Most of those staying on the border between Chechnya and Ingushetia are Azeris, Turks, Ukrainians, Georgians, Arabs, and others,” he said.
“We have information from a detained militant who said that they are being given some tablets, and a man taking them becomes like a robot and does not understand anything. These are perfectly trained workers of Western special services working against Russia. They are using us knowing our mentality and knowing that we are mostly Muslims. They have good supplies and good specialists,” he said.
“All foreign special services are working against Russia. And the people of Russia accuse us. They think that the war is still going on and that the Chechens are bandits and terrorists, while Chechens are dying for Russia‘s integrity. Hundreds of thousands of our people have been killed, thousands have gone missing, and thousands of policemen have been killed in action. But they just don‘t care about Islam, Chechens, or Chechnya,” he said.
http://www.interfax.com/interview.asp?id=106125
And here is about his father (also “Hero of Russia”):
“Cops say Gozman is a young member of the Russian organized crime group, “Bratva””
“Bratva” is not Russian. It is Soviet and encompasses all ex-Soviet republics. And as you know, Georgians, Chechens and Ukrainians are disproportionately represented in it.
Is Kadyrov also “not Russian but Soviet”, “disproportionately representing” Chechens in the Russian top leadership while calling for Russia to exterminate the Georgians and Ukrainians?
Just like his fellow “Hero of Russia Kadyrov” father called for the Chechens to kill as many Russians as possible (no, not 150, only as many as they could) in order to enter the paradise during the jihad against Russia which was declared by him personally in 1995?
I know you’ll ignore this, as your dogmas of Putinism are conflicting here with your hate of Muslims, and you just don’t know what to make out of this. But remember: a country has only their “heroes” they deserve.
Robert,
I am not sure what you want from me. I was not talking about Kadyrov. I was talking about Georg’s Ukrainian mafia in New York and New Jersey.
I am not going to go into detailed discussions about Chechnya, but in my view, while Kadyrov is a homicidal gangster, he is a typical Chechen leader. If Chechnya were independent, it would have a corrupt leader like Kadyrov anyway. Or worse. Remember how you told me that during the short period of Chechen de facto independence in 1996-99, more than 2,000 civilian people in Chechnya were kidnapped for ransom?
@in my view, while Kadyrov is a homicidal gangster, he is a typical Chechen leader
And he’s also a Russian leader and a”hero of Russia”.
@Remember how you told me that during the short period of Chechen de facto independence in 1996-99, more than 2,000 civilian people in Chechnya were kidnapped for ransom?
And how many thousands of people were kidnapped for ransom by the Russian solders and policemen? And how many of even so many corpses were sold by them for burial? And what about all the bodies with their internal organs removed for some curious reason? Did the Russian troops involved in this had some kind of excuse at all, such as their home regions being completely destroyed by war and just no other easy way of income?
And how is that so many of the kidnappers from the period of 96-99 (after the first war) are now serving in the “militia of the Chechen Republic” police forces on the pay by Moscow?
Robert wrote: @in my view, while Kadyrov is a homicidal gangster, he is a typical Chechen leader
And he’s also a Russian leader and a”hero of Russia”.
Now that you agree that Kadyrov is a typical Chechen leader, think what choices Russia has:
1. To give Chechnya freedom, so that it would choose a Kadyrov-like monster who would wage a terrorist and regular war on Russia proper and on republics like Ossetia and Daghestan.
2. To impose some non-Chechen leader on Chechnya, who doesn’t fit in with the Chechen society, causing Chechens to rebel.
3. To appoint a typical Chechen leader to lead Chechnya, a criminal man who fits into the Chechen society and can control it.
Naturally, Putin chose the 3rd option: the least of the three evils. The Chechens got to run their society the way they want to, and the Russians got the opportunity to curb Chechen wars against Daghestan.
And how many thousands of people were kidnapped for ransom by the Russian solders and policemen?
I don’t know the answer to your question, because you have given no evidence that “thousands of people were kidnapped for ransom by the Russian solders and policemen. Look, the LR told us earlier today that she gives you the right to make unsubstantiated controversial claims without providing any references, but if you want me to believe your claims, you better provide references that support your claims.
I don’t see any references in your post, as usual.
No, I don’t agree Ramzan is “a typical Chechen leader”. I say he’s a typical “Russian hero”.
Here’s about the requirements to become the “hero of Russia” in the North Caucasus conflict:
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/674320.html
It’s killing people. Saving people (and we’re talking about citiziens of Russia) just does not count.
@1. To give Chechnya freedom, so that it would choose a Kadyrov-like monster who would wage a terrorist and regular war on Russia proper and on republics like Ossetia and Daghestan.
Yeah, you just TOTALLY described Aslan Maskhadov. (The only elected Chechen president.)
Btw, the withdrawal of colonial forces would be not enough. To dismantle all the effects of war and the 200 years of Russian imperialism also UN peacekepers and advisors and a lot of international aid (all kinds, including psychological/psychiatric) would be needed. There was almost no international help whatsoever (besides from the OSCE mission), and a lot of sabotage from Russia, so Maskhadov failed. (And also because his worst nightmare was to keep Chechnya from the kind of civil war that raged in Afghanistan at the time following the Afghan mujahideen victory.)
@you have given no evidence
What a strange comment, I thought it’s just common knowledge. But OK.
Putin’s assessment seems to be accurate: Russian soldiers and their commanders in Chechnya are undisciplined, unprofessional and irresponsible. Putin should have also added: rampantly corrupt. As their chiefs steal big, Russian soldiers and officers also do their best to make some money on the side. A regular racket of kidnapping Chechens as “terrorist suspects” for ransom has been established by Russian military personnel, who also collect bribes from anyone passing a checkpoint, take part in illegal extraction and export of oil in Chechnya and so on.
http://www.crimesofwar.org/chechnya-mag/chech-felgenhauer.html
Russian and international human rights watchdogs have compiled detailed dossiers chronicling blanket search operations; arbitrary arrests; abductions for ransom; and the use of torture against, and even the summary execution of, persons suspected of sympathizing with or abetting resistance forces.
http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1077250.html
Much has changed in Russia since the time of Stalin, but rape by the military in Chechnya still (as reports by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International make clear) constitutes ‘normal’ conduct there. The case of Miss Kungaeva is only known because it came to trial. There are innumerable reports of cases of rape that never come to court, since Chechnya is under the occupation of the armed forces, and the armed forces are preoccupied with pillaging, looting and hostage-taking for ransom.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/conflict-caucasus/article_1388.jsp
The on-the-ground economics of this conflict are grisly — a civilian kept in a pit, alive, by Russan soldiers is worth a ransom from his relatives, but a corpse’s price is rather higher. Everyone gets rich, even the shadowy Chechen gangs co-operating with the soldiers; only the Chechen civilians die.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article1013662.ece
[Politkovskaya] wrote of torture, mass executions, kidnappings to gain ransom and to eliminate rebel suspects, and the sale by Russian soldiers of Chechen corpses to their families for proper Islamic burial. Her writing cemented her place as one of the war’s most vocal domestic critics.
In today’s world, Russian military personnel introduced the custom of selling Chechen corpses back to their families and demanding ransom for arrested Chechens. The Chechens, on the other hand, amazed the world by offering to give back their prisoners to the soldiers’ mothers, on the one condition that the men be removed from Chechnya. In 1996, a group of families even refused to take their children back, telling Aslan Maskhadov, as the representative of the Chechen command, that they should stay prisoners, since in Russia they would be subject to a military tribunal.
http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=4254
Enough?
I think you are just pretending to have lack of knowledge, but on the other hand all this was vastly under-reported in mass media (literally hundreds times more coverage was given to the dozens times less deadly Palestinian-Israeli conflict for example).
Details? For example, here’s a HRW report from 2000:
“Welcome to Hell”: Arbitrary Detention, Torture, and Extortion in Chechnya
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,HRW,,RUS,,3ae6a8750,0.html
This report details the cycle of torture and extortion faced by thousands of Chechens whom Russian forces have detained in Chechnya. The rights group called on European states to file a case against Russia in the European Court of Human Rights, for these and other abuses during the war in Chechnya.
Robert,
So, how many of these “kidnappings for ransom” by Russian soldiers/militia have been documented? More than five? More than ten? More than a hundred?
You claim “thousands”. So, please provide evidence for this estimate.
Most of the detained/abduced in the first and early in the second one. Including many who were detained/kidnapped repeatedly.
It was simply a common and widespread practice (“daily occurrences”, as called by CoE in 2001).
Just read more.
1. You didn’t give me any numbers with quotes.
2. Most people, who were ever detained in Yeltsin’s war, were ransomed for money? Really? How many people were ransomed total? What was the average ransom? Quotes please.
3. Where is the CoE quote, not to mention the link?
The experts of Memorial will be able to answer all your questions. Unfortunately you’re too late and Natasha Estamirova of the Grozny bureu won’t be avaible for comment.
The price of course varied. But I’ll give you one example: Asmart Magomedovna Baysayeva (the ECHR case of Baysayeva v. Russia) had to pay $1,000 for the video tape of her husband’s kidnapping by the OMON and for the map leading to the place where the “law enforcers” hid the body, yet still was not able to recover the corpse.
The mention video by the kidnappers, including the unmasked perpetrators and some of their other victims:
http://www.srji.org/en/news/2007/04/29/
Robert wrote: “The experts of Memorial will be able to answer all your questions. ”
No, wrong answer. I called my friend at the Memorial, he talked to the experts and told me that they have no information to support your claims. In particular, the conversation went like this:
I: “Is it true that most people, who were ever detained by the Russian military in the first war, were ransomed for money?”
He: “What?! That’s insane. Whoever told you this is a damn liar. Don’t believe anything that this liar tells you unless he provides exact references.”
I: ‘He claims that Politkovksya and Estamirova wrote extensively that this is the case.”
He: “They did? Then ask this guy to provide the exact quotes from these alleged writings by Politkovksya and Estamirova. Don’t believe this liar unless he gives you exact quotes.”
So, you lied again, Robert. You should be glad that LR gave you an absolution to spread any lies you want, no matter how ridiculous, without having to provide evidence.
Troll harder.
Ms. Zigfeld,
You are engaging in the worst kind of schadenfreude.
When the US is hit by a terrorist attack that will make 9/11 look like a kindergarten picnic from the 1950s, as a result of its policies, whom will you blame?
I am sure the blame will fall on Russians and Putin.
owl281, your comment is similar to someone else’s, which was written here.
That person is now being censored by the owner of this blog.
Beware! The thought police are about!
More was written about the Boxer’s murder in other articles. But I got to see his wife and child. I saw the digging up of his body. I remembered him alive, looking him in the face. He had a degree in Physics, and was a Chemical Engineer. Not your ordinary individual but a remarkable athlete as well. My friends and neighbors all liked him and said how beautiful his wife looked.
Obviously this was a Gang of Rashan murdering scum who terrorized other immigrants in Brooklyn with a protection racket, and all spoke Rashan, even if he hid out in Lviv for a time, he was ferreted out. There were three Rashan Mafia doing the killing, and when the NYC coroners office, police and FBI were talking to me and my neighbors you knew that they really wanted to get these Mascali before the venom spread further into the suburbs. Forty NYC Police vehicles were parked on my street. Not mentioning the Press and TV news. This will not bring Sergei Kobozev Back. I still feel I could have helped him somehow, if I tried harder.
http://www.villagevoice.com/2002-02-19/news/the-murder-of-a-russian-boxer/2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Kobozev
RTR – you are right, I confused Khil and Leschenko (they do sound very similar to me – but it’s a lame excuse). As far as what you write here on-topic and near-on-topic, I find it completely pointless to engage in discussion with you. Given your knowledge and writing skills, I assume that you pretend to not understand, and taunt others. That’s fine – I just don’t have any interest.
Obviously you know Russian – for me you are like Ostap Bender who “кричал Бога нет, вызывая ксендзов на диспут”. I don’t know where you live; if it’s in Russia – enjoy the swamp; if it’s outside – enjoy that Russia slides farther and farther towards Zimbabwe and Sudan.
Felix – Спасибо за сравнение с Великим Комбинатором – я действительно подражаю стилю его авторов.
My level of sarcasm is directly proportional to my contempt for the intellect of my opponent (what other tone can a thinking person take upon reading this blog?). While my replies to Georg, LR, Andrew etc are “ilfo-petrovian”, my tone with you and Robert is quite serious. In fact, I didn’t appreciate your condescending comments about my alleged memory problems.
On-topic, my question about the Manas air base is not sarcastic at all. I truly don’t understand what reason, other than control over Central Asian republics, for this air base. And consulting their official web pages and the Wiki do not explain the role that the Manas air base is playing in the occupation of Afghanistan. On the contrary, Wiki says:
“Так как в Афганистане больше не ведутся военные действия, мы без сомнения уже сейчас можем начать диалог о прекращении работы базы в Манасе”
I am actually quite interested in hearing some good reason why Manas is important vis-a-vis Afghanistan. You initial posts indicated that you knew why Manas is so important, so I asked you to share your knowledge. Instead, you act as if it is common knowledge and/or obvious.
So – if you know any such reason, I am seriously interested in hearing it. If you don’t know any – please don’t pretend that you do.
Georg,
I don’t understand your story. Are you saying that Sergei Kobozev was your neighbor in New Jersey, and that his body was found in his own backyard, which is next to your residence?
I recall that Kobosev worked and was killed in Brooklyn. I think you are not telling the full truth here.
I have been looking at the discussion, and wondering – will Russians ever learn?
Russia is getting ready to put up glorious billboards to – STALIN – at the beginning of May, in just a few weeks.
During stalin’s regime, and during soviet times, things were easy – if someone dared to raise their voice, you simply killed them, or sent them into the gulag, or put them in “psychiatric” hospitals.
Because one would have to be “insane” not to accept that the sovok union was “paradise on earth.”
Now, rather than trying to deal with the Caucuses in a human way, Putler, who knows only sovok instincts, “cracks down” in the Caucuses – ah, how macho.
What would drive 2 women to blow themselves up in a Moscow subway, killing themselves and others with them?
I guess one could say – “fighting fire with fire” – or – fighting stalinism/putlerism with stalinism/putlerism.
Neither of which is justified.
Russians – they learn nothing, forget nothing.
Except how to play chess, do math problems, and how to pick government that kill.
Last Friday night, on the Savik Shuster show (Savik left Russia to find freedom of speech in Ukraine, as LR has posted before), after an hour-long interview with former President Yushchenko, Savik had one of the Duma deputies (member of United Russia) come on the show to try to sell the idea of a common union with Ukraine, Russia and Belarus.
Putler parades around in Maskva with the Supreme Wizard of the Oily Orthodox Mother Roosha Church, Kirill, and Kirill’s $36,000 watch. Kirill has his own limousine.
Why would Muslims in the Caucuses want any part of that?
And, as was rightly pointed out in the discussion – why would anyone want to get into a common union with Russia?
It’s been done before – it was called the sovok union, and the consequences were disastrous.
Here’s the link to the show – it was titled “From Russia With Love”:
http://shuster.kanalukraina.tv/video/4633_iz_rossii_s_lyubov_yu/
When it comes to government – Russians learn nothing, and forget nothing, except – “need strong man.”
Macho dupe Putler is not working out.
He is not a man. Let him stick to kissing belly buttons of little boys and having pictures taken of it for publicity purposes – it’s what he does best.
@Please leave me out of your insane world, in which you waste your life discussing idiotic comments of some ridiculous figures.
RTR,
Russian general, totalitary leader of a Russian republic, “Hero of Russia” (also almost every other Russian medal), and master of life and death for some 1 million people, Ramzan Kadyrov, is not a “ridiculous figure”. He is a horrific figure.
He is the kind of person who is not above torturing and murdering people personally, and really, really, REALLY enjoys everything about it. For many he is also the symbol of modern Russia, the symbol of which Putin’s Russia is not shy of at all, but instead is actually proud of and uses him to represent their country even to the international audience:
http://www.tnr.com/article/pravda-the-potomac
Ramzan often confuses Chechnya with himself, but actually he is the real face of Russia.
@Please leave me out of your insane world, in which you waste your life discussing idiotic comments of some ridiculous figures.
RTR,
Russian general, totalitarian leader of a Russian republic, “Hero of Russia” (also almost every other Russian medal), and master of life and death for some 1 million people, Ramzan Kadyrov, is not a “ridiculous figure”. He is a horrific figure.
He is the kind of person who is not above torturing and murdering people personally, and really, really, REALLY enjoys everything about it. For many he is also the symbol of modern Russia, the symbol of which Putin’s Russia is not shy of at all, but instead is actually proud of and uses him to represent their country even to the international audience:
http://www.tnr.com/article/pravda-the-potomac
Ramzan often confuses Chechnya with himself, but actually he is the real face of Russia.
@It must be added that the problem of Neo-Nazism is pale in comparison with countries such as the US,
Dude.
More than half of Nazi skinheads IN THE WORLD live in Russia. That is over 60,000 of them.
@Watch some Family Guy, perhaps South Park, maybe some Fox news, which really is effective at alienating Muslims.
South Park is more effective at alienating Russians, as it’s banned in Russia.
@You can watch a film such as Team America, or even flick a page of your newspaper and find offensive drawing of Mohammed. Yes, these examples may seem trivial, but they exist all over the place none the less.
So this is what you meant with your “rounding up of Muslims”: cartoons and comedy animated series using the right of free speech to lampoon everyone and eveything.
Btw, the “Hero of Russia” Gen. Kadyrov said the Dutch caroonists should be “buried alive”.
And since you apparently don’t believe me and need sources so badly for everything, because you’re too lazy to find them, here you go:
The Republic of Fear
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article605439.ece
@Clearly there isn’t a strange silence about the graves in Chechnya if it is widely publicised in the media
Ha… ha…
@- How very childish of you to simply parrot what I have said. The topic was the US and fascism, you deviated from it like you always do and started talking about Russia.
The topic (of this blog) is Russia and fascism. I told you where to go if you so-badly want to talk about the alleged FEMA camps. Elsewhere and with someone else.
– South Park is not banned in Russia. It was proposed to shut down the channel that broadcasts it in 2008, but the idea was rejected, and South Park is now available to watch on the channel 2×2, with its license for broadcast available until 2013. Unsourced claim number three, Robert.
– Rounding up of Muslims ( sending them to Guantanamo bay, which you either seem to be oblivious to, or brainwashed to ignore) is different from degrading them in the media. I don’t need to prove this to you surely.
Sources are needed to back up your claims, to prove that what you write is based on fact, not fiction. You seem to excel at not providing sources, and the source which you kindly provided here doesn’t exist. Way to go.
– It is I who should be laughing here. But I’m not, because I honestly can’t figure out what your ha ha refers to. I was talking about the Western media, if you misunderstood me.
– The topic which I was discussing with other people was US and fascism. You joined in, got intellectually obliterated, and started changing topic. This a common tactic of people who know they are wrong. It’s my right to discuss what I wish, and I’m discussing the US here. If you like, you can write angry rants about Russia elsewhere, but next time, don’t reply to my comments.
@- Rounding up of Muslims ( sending them to Guantanamo bay, which you either seem to be oblivious to, or brainwashed to ignore) is different from degrading them in the media. I don’t need to prove this to you surely.
You comlete, total idiot,
No American Muslim, or any American at all, was ever sent to Gitmo/X-Ray. Which was made for al-Qaeda’s FOREIGN members and suspects captured in Afghanistan. (Including nine Russians.)
Even John Walker Lindh (captured in Afgahnistan, then captured again after the prison uprising). Or this bunch of retards who have planned to attack Fort Dix in 2007. No one.
The sole case of Yasser Hamdi doesn’t count for variety of reasons. And of course he was not any “rounded up”, he was too caught in Afghanistan, where he moved to join the al-Qaeda.
Here you go, freaking Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_captives_in_Guantanamo (more like “American captives in Guantanamo”).
@- The topic which I was discussing with other people was US and fascism. You joined in, got intellectually obliterated,
:D
Oh god. You ARE a retard.
Are you by any chance this “Phobohobe” (Photophobe) fellow, again and under still another name? I lost count of your names, you know.
More like “the LACK ofAmerican captives in Guantanamo”, of course.
But Russia indiscriminately detained/kidnapped hundreds of thousands of Russian Muslims. Most of them were released, mostly after being tortured, many after being ransomed. But tens of thousands were sentenced on “terrorism” charges, and thousands were murdered or “dissappeared”.
For some of the cases for which Russia was condamned in the international court of justice:
http://www.srji.org/en/legal/cases
Mostly the cases of kidnapping and/or murder (by the state agents, of course). The “disappeared”were at the same time legally declared dead.
The story that Georg alludes to, indeed turns out to be grizzly and very different from what he tells us. I found a BBC News article that tells the details and answers all questions:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/russian/news/newsid_4236000/4236274.stm
First of all, this is the story of how two men from Ukraine – Gozman and Nosov – teamed up with a Siberean man – Ermihin – and brutally killed a Russian man Sergei Kobozev. Gozman is from Berdichev, and Nosov is from Kiev.
Second, even more disturbingly, Georg claims that Kobozev was his neighbor. But Kobozev lived in Brooklyn, while Georg says that he is from New Jersey. How can they be neighbors? What is really going on here?
Did you lie to us, Georg? Do you actually live in Brooklyn? If so, how can you swim laps with your wife at 1 am? Unlike New Jersey, which has private swimming pools, there are no public swimming pools open in Brooklyn open at 1 am.
So, why did you mislead us that you live in New Jersey and swim laps in the middle of the night, Georg?
I am absolutely repulsed by the gloating over a terrorist act. Does La Russophobe believe that Putin’s policies nullify the value of human life? Oh, wait, the victims were Russians, and therefore non-human in La Russophobe’s eyes.
Douche Bags RTR, Mark, A., AT et al. Probably a virus site on that link.
I swim at the “Y” with my wife after work, for an hour, during which we do a mile, and do not just sit on a computer. Thrashing this site by adding nonsense is ruining it. Rashan Maskals or whatever, your kind were never called Russian till Peter the first named your filthy Bog in the 17 th century.
There are more Maskals living in Odessa than Ukrainians, and never call themselves Ukrainian or even speak it, as most, are crap maskals, that seek privileges over the rest of the humans in the country. Odessa is in Crimea, an autonomy of Ukraine. But the monster was caught in Lviv Ukraine, and sent to Poland for delivery to the Americans.
I would have liked a piece of this lowlife scum. These Mafia Scumlords are the same ilk as my detractors. RTR, AT and Mark, your kind of “Russian” for sure. Another reason Stalin was so popular in Savok, was the he killed more Maskal Russians than anybody else. Ironically only the Maskal Russians still idolize Stalin?!
The Maskal/Russian Gang did grizzly deeds in America, and were dragged back to answer to the law. Does not matter what cities these Maskals traveled to last or first. They were called Russian Mobsters by the Americans.
I did get a creepy feeling when walking around late at night in back of the house when it was empty the grass grew high in the backyard. I did not even imagine that Kobozev was in the ground, killed by the people he associated with.
“The mystery surrounding his death was solved when his bones were found by the FBI in March 1999 in the backyard of the Russian Mafia’s #2: Alexander Spitchenko in Livingston, New Jersey, USA where his body was buried in a shallow grave.[1]”
“Kobozev was allegedly murdered by two reputed Russian mobsters, Alexander Nosov and Vasiliy Ermichine. [2] Natan Gozman, a third defendant charged in the murder, remained a fugitive until February 2005, when he was arrested in Poland and extradited to New York, where he awaits trial.
Prosecutors said that the mob allegedly turned against Kobozev because he worked as a part-time security guard at a Brooklyn restaurant from which Nosov was ejected after a fight with a musician. Several days after the fight, the defendants and a third member of the gang unexpectedly encountered Kobozev at a car repair shop, where they confronted him about the fight before Nosov shot him, authorities said. Still alive, Kobozev was put in a jeep and driven to the Livingston, N.J., home of a high-ranking member of the crime group, where his neck was broken by Ermichine after Kobozev asked to be taken to a hospital, prosecutors said.” From Wiki.
The village voice article is not bad either.
http://www.villagevoice.com/2002-02-19/news/the-murder-of-a-russian-boxer/1
Knowing this type, there is good reason to believe that it was Putin, who bombed the Metro system in central Moscow.
Just like when the Kursk sank Putin refused help and did not get rescue equipment from abroad till it was too late. He got away with it.
Georg, j’accuse.
There is no guilt in your being…. well, not the brightest bulb in the garland. But there us something about you that’s inexcusable: you are a compulsive liar, sir.
From the start, I saw that something about your story about your alleged neighbor’s – Kobozev’s – death that didn’t add up. I knew you were lying. Now you have proved it. Let me play a little Perry Mason/Columbo and prove that you are a liar. I start by summarizing the Kobozev’s case with the facts that we all agree upon.
Kobozev lived and worked in Brooklyn, New York. His murderers beat him up in Brooklyn and then drove his body to their fellow gangster friend’s (with a Ukrainian name of Alexander Spitchenko) house in another state: Livingston, New Jersey, where they buried his body.
Now let us go to your stories that you told us. First, you told us that Kobozev was your neighbor in Brooklyn, New York:
“I feel very bad about the killing of my neighbor and feel I should have gotten to know him more closely, maybe this would not have happened. ”
You also told us that you saw how the New York police dug up his body in Brooklyn, New York:
“ But I got to see his wife and child. I saw the digging up of his body. I remembered him alive, looking him in the face. He had a degree in Physics, and was a Chemical Engineer. My friends and neighbors all liked him and said how beautiful his wife looked. Obviously this was a Gang of Rashan murdering scum who terrorized other immigrants in Brooklyn… and when the NYC coroners office, police and FBI were talking to me and my neighbors … Forty NYC Police vehicles were parked on my street. Not mentioning the Press and TV news. I still feel I could have helped him somehow, if I tried harder. ”
So, I immediately pointed out that this cannot be the case, because Kobazev’s body was found far from his Brooklyn home. It was found all the way in another state: New Jersey.
You panicked and told us new details of your “story”:
“ I did get a creepy feeling when walking around late at night in back of the house when it was empty the grass grew high in the backyard. I did not even imagine that Kobozev was in the ground….“The mystery surrounding his death was solved when his bones were found by the FBI in March 1999 in the backyard of the Russian Mafia’s #2: Alexander Spitchenko in Livingston, New Jersey, USA where his body was buried in a shallow grave.[1]”
So, Kobozev lived in Brooklyn but was buried in New Jersey. These are two far away places. It takes maybe 1 hour by car and 20 hours by walking to get from where he lived to where he was buried. And yet, you claim that you live both next to where he lived and where he was buried.
How can you live in two different cites at the same time, Georg? If you live in Brooklyn, New York — how could you be next to Kobozev burial in Livingston, New Jersey? And if you live in Livingston, New Jersey — how can you claim that Kobozev was your next-door neighbor in Brooklyn, New York?
This was a sinister murder case, and your testimony here clearly indicates that you are hiding something, Georg. What was your role in this murder? Are you best friends with Alexander Spitchenko? Did the two of you help your Ukrainian friends Nosov and Gozman bury Kobozev in Alexander Spitchenko’s back yard in Livingston, New Jersey?
Look, Georg. There is something weird going on between you and the owner of this blog. Several people were banned by her for pointing out that you use different nicks here: Georg, George, voroBey, Elmer.
Your own silly post about your mother watching TV with you has suddenly disappeared from this page, even though AT’s reply to you about your mother “Oy, and you still live with your mom! At 60+ years old??????” on March 30, 2010 at 4:02 pm is still here, as well as your reply to him on March 30, 2010 at 4:54 pm. So, I will not be surprised if more of our discussion here disappears, and I may get banned.
Just in case, I am going to save a copy of this page the way it is now, and if anything disappears, I will call the New York and New Jersey police to notify them that you may have participated in the burying of Kobozev in your neighbor’s yard. It’s called “accessory to murder”, while erasing your and my posts will qualify as tampering with evidence in a murder case.
Georg wrote: “I remember that you would be banned for suggestions on the blog, and were told to use e-mail. I guess you really did it this time, I mean peeing on LR’s carpet.”
Georg, you seem to brag that it is you who determines whom to ban on this blog. What is your role in the management of this blog?
BTW, you glorification of Islamic terrorism on the pages – how does it square with the American anti-terrorist regulations and the Patriot Act? Should the authorities be notified of your public statements in support of terrorism?
You wrote: “I feel that bombing Moscali is justified… I salute these poor women that killed themselves. Probably young widows with nothing left to live for. RaSSiya will go down badly!… I truly feel the pain that brought these freedom fighters to send this final message… why would it matter if some aggrieved widows from victimized parts of Rasha got their own vengeance, on some part of the freaking hoard? I think it would be justice.
This is direct and repeated incitement to terrorism and mass murder. You present a clear danger of committing terrorist acts in New York, possibly against Russian or Russian-American targets. It is time that the US Department of Homeland Security be notified of the goings on in this blog.
RTR, you pretend to not understand, Spam and twist trash on this site. @RTR.”Garland of of dim lightbulbs” stupid remarks from a Neo Savokian Scum Bucket.
After your Moscal/Russian Mafia pack of inebriated jackal friends, got evicted from the property. Kobozev rented the house on McClellan Ave, from his employer in Livingston where he and his wife and child lived. He was very quite, and chatted with his neighbors. Hardly anyone knew he was even there in this bedroom community of an affluent neighborhood. Nothing like this ever happened there.
Amazingly the Moscal/Russians when not in control, learn English without complaining that America is forcing them to do this.
Why do the Mascals complain about other Slavic and Baltic countries forcing them to use their own language, instead of that Rashan Polyglot Language. Just sad, is it not?
This is just bulying their neighbors. whom joined or want to join NATO, to get some Sanity, and Security from the misfit Moscals “Neo Bolshevik Revival”.
I agree with RTR’s comment that there is something weird going on between “Georg” and the owner of this blog. Some of my messages, where I was exposing his anti-Semitism, got deleted as well. It’s very disturbing that Kim Zigfeld, who claims to be a Jew, buddies up with an unapologetic anti-Semite, most likely the son of someone involved in the Holocaust, and who is in the US illegally (since the US does not allow residence for people involved in genocide or war crimes)
I have nothing to hide. My father told me he did not like Bandera and preferred the politics of Melnick.
His brother was a Geologist and My Father was a High School principle. To get an education he went to a Polish officers Military Academy.
When the war came he was a business man. His father ran a brewery. He spoke fluent German and was to be inducted, by the Nazis. My father refused saying he had a “Heart Problem”. Which he told me that he never had a problem.
So the Germans produced a doctor who examined him. My father said at that moment his heart must have been really jumping since the doctor rejected him for service in the German Army. So that is it, no secrets. No anti anybody or even much talk about the war other than getting out to the West.
My father’s first cousin a doctor was forced to work for a Polish Hospital, and when the Commies came and told him that he was to work for them now. AT this point he requested an Ambulance, bribed the driver and took his family past the front lines to the West.
That is all there is, we hurt no one, and had no problem eventually getting to the US. We experienced no horrors in America till Rashan/Moscal scumbag Mafia killed our neighbor.
Now you pigs can write all misinterpretations you want, and distort and lie about me. It will do you no good, and shows your desperation.
Mark,
As someone who lived in the west for 30 years and now areas of CIS for 6, can tell you that 95% of what you read here is justified and true.
Any more questions?
Wal
@I know that … Robert have both posted on numerous websites around the net.
Curses and drats! My cover is blown!
B-b-b but how did you find out??
(Btw, I guess I should just start editing Wikipedia. So many people think it’s the new bible.)
Georg wrote: “Kobozev rented the house on McClellan Ave, from his employer in Livingston where he and his wife and child lived. He was very quite, and chatted with his neighbors. Hardly anyone knew he was even there in this bedroom community of an affluent neighborhood. ”
No, he didn’t, George. His employer was in Brooklyn and he lived in Brooklyn. Moreover, his body was not found near his home, but in the backyard of your neighbor in Livingston, New Jersey: the mafia boss Alexander Spitchenko (a Ukrainian last name). So, you couldn’t be the neighbor of both Spitchenko and Kobozev, because they lived far apart.
We went over this so many times:
Georg // April 1, 2010 at 6:26 am
“The mob turned against Kobozev because he worked as a part-time security guard at a Brooklyn restaurant”
Robert // March 30, 2010 at 5:18 pm
http://www.sex-offenders.info/detail.php?id=24862
About a week later, Gozman and Nosov coincidentally ran into Sergei at an auto repair shop in Brooklyn . There Sergei was shot and thrown into the trunk of a car. Then Sergei was driven to Livingston, New Jersey, buring his body in the backyard of a high-ranking Bratva official.
http://www.villagevoice.com/2002-02-19/news/the-murder-of-a-russian-boxer/
Kobozev lost his last fight during a confrontation with hoods in an auto-body shop on East 15th Street in Brooklyn . Kobozev’s corpse turned up in a grave in the backyard of a home owned by Alexander Spitchenko of Livingston, New Jersey. Spitchenko was not only a master extortionist; he later became the Brigade’s No. 2 man in New York.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/russian/news/newsid_4236000/4236274.stm
Kobozev lived in Brooklyn with an emigrant Elena Cherskii.
Georg // March 31, 2010 at 3:41 am | Reply
“Forty NYC Police vehicles were parked on my street… when the NYC coroners office, police and FBI were talking to me and my neighbors”
Tell me, Georg, if Kobozev’s corpse was found in Livingston, New Jersey, and, as you claim, Kobozev lived in Livingston, New Jersey, then how come the coroners office and the police cars were all form New York? What were the New York coroners officers doing in New Jersey? And what happened to New Jersey coroners officials?
You are hiding something very gruesome, Georg. Your connection with your neighbor Spitchenko should be investigated.
Robert wrote:”
Andrew,
It’s from this blog:
I’d recommend it for everyone.”
To anyone incapable of handling the truth and willing to be brainwashed, that is.
People, interested in the truth, should just read the CoE Report itself:
http://www.ceiig.ch/Report.html
In particular, read the paragraphs already posted here long time ago:
An additional legal question is whether the Georgian use of force against Russian peacekeeping forces on Georgian territory, i.e. in South Ossetia, might have been justified. Again the answer is in the negative. There was no ongoing armed attack by Russia before the start of the Georgian operation. Georgian claims of a large-scale presence of Russian armed forces in South Ossetia prior to the Georgian offensive on 7/8 August could not be substantiated by the Mission. It could also not be verified that Russia was on the verge of such a major attack, in spite of certain elements and equipment having been made readily available.
There is also no evidence to support any claims that Russian peacekeeping units in South Ossetia were in flagrant breach of their obligations under relevant international agreements such as the Sochi Agreement and thus may have forfeited their international legal status. Consequently, the use of force by Georgia against Russian peacekeeping forces in Tskhinvali in the night of 7/8 August 2008 was contrary to international law.
In the first instance, there seems to be little doubt that if the Russian peacekeepers were attacked, Russia had the right to defend them using military means proportionate to the attack. Hence the Russian use of force for defensive purposes during the first phase of the conflict would be legal.
There were reportedly more than a hundred US military advisers in the Georgian armed forces when the conflict erupted in August 2008, and an even larger number of US specialists and advisors are thought to have been active in different branches of the Georgian power structures and administration. Considerable military support in terms of equipment and to some extent also training was equally provided by a number of other countries led by Ukraine, the Czech Republic and Israel, the latter contributing in terms of technology and quality rather than quantity, all of them adding to the new military strength of Georgia, which was proudly displayed on suitable occasions such as National Day parades.
This turn of events heralded a period of Georgia’s unprecedented militarisation. The country’s Government proclaimed its aspirations to join NATO within shortest possible timelines. Georgian authorities demonstratively augmented the military budget – by 2008 the imports of weapons reached USD one billion – an astronomical amount by Georgia’s standards. The country continued to proactively procure offensive weapons in the United States and other EU and OSCE member countries. The list of countries that shipped weapons systems to Georgia included the United States, United Kingdom, France, Greece, Turkey, Israel, Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine, Serbia and others.
In Georgia it was no longer a secret that the country’s armed forces were being trained by military instructors from the United States and Israel based on methodologies developed during the military operation in the former Yugoslavia, which were not defensive in nature but rather envisaged occupation of territories in neighbouring states and resolution of conflicts through the
use of military force. It should also be noted that by early 2008 the military leadership of Georgia was in the possession of detailed satellite maps
depicting the territory of the proposed theatre of operations in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Georgia was unable to produce such maps using its own limited resources. In violation of previous agreements the Georgian side continued
several years in a row to rotate its peacekeeping contingent every 2-3 months instead of twice a year. In so doing, by summer 2008 they managed to
familiarise virtually all units from the 4th infantry brigade with the future
theatre of operations. Later on this brigade spearheaded the attack launched
against Tskhinvali on 7 August.
Georgian intelligentsia which was frequently critical of Russian domination and russification. In Russian views, however, Georgia had been given much-needed protection against ravaging neighbours. The installation of a system of modern administration ranging from road building to an efficient education system was another achievement brought to Georgia by Russia. While Russia was treated by parts of the Georgian historical narrative almost as a threat to the existence of the Georgian nation, and while there were indeed attempts to subdue Georgian cultural heritage,
Georgians were to some extent even a privileged nation within the Russian Empire.
Finally, there were many in Georgia with an aversion to Russian imperial power and its heavy-handed and backward ways, but at the same time they were attracted by modern civilisation and a European outlook as offered by and through Russia.
There were reportedly more than a hundred US military advisers in the Georgian armed forces when the conflict erupted in August 2008, and an even larger number of US specialists and advisors are thought to have been active in different branches of the Georgian power structures and administration. Considerable military support in terms of equipment and to some extent also training was equally provided by a number of other countries led by Ukraine, the Czech Republic and Israel, the latter contributing in terms of technology and quality rather than quantity, all of them adding to the new military strength of Georgia, which was proudly displayed on suitable occasions such as National Day parades.
2.) On the night of 7 to 8 August 2008, a sustained Georgian artillery attack struck the town of Tskhinvali. Other movements of the Georgian armed forces targeting Tskhinvali and the surrounding areas were under way, and soon the fighting involved Russian, South Ossetian and Abkhaz military units and armed elements.
3.) The shelling of Tskhinvali by the Georgian armed forces during the night of 7 to 8 August 2008 marked the beginning of the large-scale armed conflict in Georgia
During the period of transition to post-Soviet sovereignty the country´s first President, Zviad Gamsakhurdia, then did a lot in terms of nationalism to alienate the two smaller political-territorial entities of Abkhazia and South Ossetia from the Georgian
independence project, proclaiming ethno-centrist slogans such as “Georgia for Georgians”.
Zviad Gamsakhurdia´s successor, President Eduard Shevardnadze, had to ask Moscow for assistance in October. Russian troops helped as requested. In October 1993 Eduard Shevardnadze signed Georgia´s accession to the Russian-led Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) and Collective Security Treaty (CST), too. Four Russian military bases extended their presence on Georgian soil and Russian border troops remained deployed along Georgia´s border with Turkey and patrolled the sea shores. In addition, Russian forces undertook peacekeeping responsibilities both in South Ossetia and later in Abkhazia.
An agreement concluded in June 1992 in Sochi between the two leaders Eduard Shevardnadze and Boris Yeltsin established the Joint Peacekeeping Forces (JPKF) for South Ossetia, consisting of one battalion of up to 500 servicemen each of the Russian, Georgian and Ossetian sides, to be commanded by a Russian officer.
There is the question of whether the use of force by Georgia in South Ossetia, beginning with the shelling of Tskhinvali during the night of 7/8 August 2008, was justifiable under international law. It was not.
Georgia had acknowledged that the prohibition of the use of force was applicable to its conflict in South Ossetia in specific legally binding international documents, such as the Sochi Agreement of 1992 or the 1996 Memorandum.
It is not possible to accept that the shelling of Tskhinvali during much of the night with GRAD multiple rocket launchers (MRLS) and heavy artillery would satisfy the requirements of having been necessary and proportionate in order to defend those villages. It follows from the illegal character of the Georgian military assault that South Ossetian defensive action in response did conform to international law in terms of legitimate self-defence.
Posted under your previous incarnation as Miachael Tal I see….
Really RTR, you need to learn to read.
What the report says about Russian actions:
“Part 4: Use of force by Russia against Georgia
I. Facts
Russia was involved in the conflict in several ways. First, Russian peacekeepers who were
stationed in South Ossetia on the basis of the Sochi Agreement were involved in the fighting
in Tskhinvali. Second, Russian regular troops were fighting in South Ossetia, Abkhazia and
deeper in Georgian territory. Third, North Caucasian irregulars took part in the fighting.
Finally, Russia supported Abkhaz and South Ossetian forces in many ways, especially by
training, arming, equipping, financing and supporting them.
a) Specific circumstances of an attack on peacekeeping forces stationed abroad
The specific problem of the case at hand is that self-defence by Russia was not triggered by
an attack against Russian territory, but by an alleged attack on Russian peacekeepers stationed
abroad. Neither the independence nor the sovereignty of Russia as a state nor the security of
the Russian population living within the borders of Russia were endangered by the Georgian
attack. As argued above, the Georgian attack on the peacekeeping bases must nevertheless be
considered as an armed attack on Russia under Art. 51 of the UN Charter. But the
circumstances have to be taken into account when assessing the necessity and proportionality
of the Russian reaction.
In this context it must be remembered that peacekeeping operations are very specific. The two
special attributes of a traditional peacekeeping operation are that it is established and
maintained with the consent of all the states concerned and that it is not authorized to take
military action against any state beyond defending the peacekeeping forces.155 In the 1990s, a
more “robust” type of peacekeeping emerged under the auspices of the United Nations. These
more robust operations have been allowed to use force beyond self-defence, depending on
their specific mandate.
Yoram Dinstein distinguishes between two forms of self-defence of peacekeeping operations:
the “specific right to self-defence, applicable to peacekeeping forces” and the “much broader
right to self-defence vested in States.” He further argues: “A peacekeeping force’s exercise of
self-defence is more akin to a military unit’s self-defence, in the context of on-the-spot
reaction.”156
The Russian reaction can be subdivided in two phases: first, the immediate reaction of the
Russian peacekeepers shooting at Georgian armed forces, and second, the invasion of regular Russian troops to fight back the Georgian army.
There is no doubt that the Russian peacekeepers, if they had been directly attacked, had the
right to immediate response. An immediate military response was necessary and proportionate under that condition. Still, doubts remain whether the Russian peacekeepers were attacked in the first place.
It is more difficult to decide whether the entire military campaign against Georgia was
necessary and proportionate.
b) Necessity
As explained above,157 necessity is understood by some authors quite narrowly as a situation
where it is unavoidable to rely on force in response to an armed attack since no alternative
means of redress is available. From that perspective, a relevant question would be whether the
withdrawal of Russian peacekeepers would have been a peaceful alternative that would have
rendered the resort to military force by Russia unnecessary and thus illegal under the heading
of self-defence. In its broader sense, necessary rather means what is essential and important.
However, the special aspect of this case is that Russia was allegedly attacked while fulfilling
its peacekeeping role. Given the fact that Russia was fulfilling an international task, Russia
could have been expected to ask for international support in such a situation. This would have
been a reasonable political option. However, such a step is no strict precondition for the
admissibility of self-defence, under the broad conception of “necessity”.
c) Proportionality
As stated above, a reaction is proportionate if there is a reasonable relationship between the
measures employed and the objective, the only permissible objective being the repulsion of
the armed attack.
i) The objective of the reaction
The aim of the reaction must only be to halt an attack, and to eliminate the threat, but it must
not go further than that. The requirement of proportionality thus very importantly functions as a barrier against retaliatory or punitive actions that are meant to be a sanction or to teach the attacker a “lesson”.
ii) Further factors to be taken into account
Further factors to be taken into account are the targets selected, the scale of the military
action, the effect on third states’ rights, the level of destruction of the enemy forces, and
finally damage to territory and damage to the infrastructure of the target state and to the
environment generally.
In more detail: The nature of the targets plays a part. If the targets are not military objects,
their destruction is not efficient, and thus also not necessary in terms of Art. 51 of the UN
Charter.
The manner and scope of the reaction must be assessed. This includes the selection of
weapons used and destruction caused, the territory covered, the extension in time of the
military action, and the overall scale of the whole operation. The defending state is not
restricted to the same weapons or the same number of armed forces as the attacking state.158
The geographical scope of the reaction is also a factor to be taken into account.159 However,
the reaction need not be confined to the space where the armed attack was launched.160
Proportionality does not mainly imply a comparison of the material damages caused. The
damages brought about by the reaction are normally greater than the damages caused by the
attack, but this does not render the reaction disproportionate as such.
The causalities and damage sustained must be compared. Such a comparison can only be
drawn a posteriori, weighing in the balance the acts of force and counter-force in their totality
(from the first to the last moment of fighting).161 However, there seems little evidence in state
practice that the overall level of combatant casualties counts as a constraining factor for
assessing ius ad bellum-proportionality.162 The level of collateral civilian damage is generally
not articulated as a factor of relevance to proportionality in ius ad bellum (as discussed
here),163 but this concern underlies the accepted factors of the choice of weapons and targets,
and can therefore be counted as a relevant criterion.164 There is little state practice to indicate
the relevance of factors such as the possible long-term effects on the civilian population,
including the creation of a large refugee outflow.165 A larger amount of destruction and
civilian causalities is rather an indication that the objective pursued was not legitimate, and
went beyond the mere stopping of the attack and eradication of the threat.166
Overall, the criteria for assessing necessity and proportionality are very flexible, and they are
not only quantitative, but also qualitative.
iii) The facts of the case under scrutiny
Russia bombarded Georgian positions in South Ossetia. It also conducted military activities
outside the South Ossetian administrative borders and posted military vessels in the Black Sea
before the Georgian harbour of Poti. Due to Russian bombs on Poti, oil deliveries from Baku
to the port city of Supsa had to be temporarily suspended. Also the railway track from Tbilisi
to the coast was damaged. Oil transport on that railway was interrupted. Thereby the entire
Georgian economy was affected.
According to the Georgian representative in the Security Council, as of 19 August 2008 the
total number of people killed in the conflict reached 250 on the Georgian side, civilians and
Georgian Ministry of Defence personnel combined. Over 1 469 were injured.167 The data
given to the Fact-Finding Mission in mid 2009 differ substantially: about 410 people killed
(170 military, 228 civilian, and 12 police), 1 747 wounded.168
iv) Assessments of governments
At the Security Council emergency session of 10 August 2008 Russia explained its actions in
the Black Sea as follows: “The aim of that operation is to ensure that we protect Russian
citizens who are in that region, to provide support to the Russian peacekeeping contingent if
there should be a military attack against them, and also to provide humanitarian assistance to
the civilian population who are in the zone of the conflict. With the aim of preventing
incidents in the area patrolled by Russian ships, we have established a security zone. These
actions do not seek to establish a maritime blockade of Georgia. Force will be used only in accordance with Art. 51 of the Charter, in exercise of the right to self-defence by the Russian Federation.”169
In the answers given to the Fact-Finding Mission, Russia explained that “the deployment of
additional Russian troops [in Abkhazia] was necessary since there were compelling reasons to
believe that an attack similar in scale was to be launched against Abkhazia once the Ossetian
issue was resolved. The assumption that Georgia harboured such plans was confirmed by the
information gathered by Russian and Abkhaz intelligence services.”170
In contrast, various Security Council members gathered in emergency sessions during August
repeatedly estimated the Russian activities to be disproportionate.171 The representative of the
United Kingdom stated: “Russian forces have certainly violated respect for the international
norms of peacekeeping, and it is a gross distortion by Russia to claim peacekeeping duties as the reason for its action.
d) Conclusions: Lack of necessity and proportionality
As an act of self-defence against the attack on the Russian military bases, the only admissible
objective of the Russian reaction was to eliminate the Georgian threat for its own
peacekeepers. The expulsion of the Georgian forces from South Ossetia, and the defence of
South Ossetia as a whole was not a legitimate objective for Russia, because Russia could not
rely on collective self-defence in favour of South Ossetia, as will be shown below. The admissible Russian objective was therefore limited.
The military reaction of Russia went beyond the repulsion of the Georgian armed attack on
the Russian bases and was thus not necessary. Russia mainly targeted military objectives, and
at least some of the targeted military objectives were related to the Georgian attack in South
Ossetia. Nevertheless, Russian military support for the use of force by Abkhazia against
Georgia cannot be justified in this context. The bombing of large parts of the upper Kodori
Valley was in no relation to any potential threat for the Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia
(see below). The same applies to the posting of the ships in the Black Sea. An impartial
observer, putting himself in the place of Russia, would not have qualified the Russian reaction
as reasonably related to the objective of halting the Georgian attack on the Russian
peacekeepers stationed in South Ossetia.
The means employed by Russia were not in a reasonable relationship to the only permissible
objective, which was to eliminate the threat for Russian peacekeepers. In any case, much of
the destruction (see Chapter 5 “Military Events in 2008”) after the conclusion of the ceasefire
agreement is not justifiable by any means. According to international law, the Russian
military action taken as a whole was therefore neither necessary nor proportionate to protect
Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia.
IV. No justification of Russian use of force as fulfilment of the peacekeeping mission
Russia claimed that both the peacekeeping units and the further reinforcing units “continued
to carry out their peacekeeping mission until the European Union Monitoring Mission was
deployed in accordance with the “Medvedev-Sarkozy” agreements (…).”173
As explained above, peacekeeping units are defensive in nature. They have to be neutral and
must not take sides with either of the conflicting parties. They are normally equipped only
with light weapons for self-defence; their number is clearly limited.
According to the 1992 Sochi Agreement, the Russian peacekeepers were a part of joint forces
“under” the Control Commission (Art. 3(3)). The Joint Control Commission’s task was “to
exercise control over the implementation of ceasefire, withdrawal of armed formations,
disbanding of forces of self-defence and to maintain the regime of security in the region.”
(Art. 3 (1) of the Sochi Agreement). “In case of violation of provisions of this Agreement, the
Control Commission shall carry out investigation of relevant circumstances and undertake
urgent measures aimed at restoration of peace and order and non-admission of similar
violations in the future.” (Art. 5).
These provisions show that any unilateral support for one of the conflicting parties cannot be
justified as a peacekeeping mission. Furthermore, it is not possible to combine a peacekeeping
task and a military action based on self-defence. The status of a victim of an armed attack is
incompatible with the neutral status of a peacekeeper. Whoever is drawn into a conflict can no longer act as peacekeeper.174 The peacekeeping mission was limited to a small number of
lightly armed troops which could not be reinforced or replaced by heavily armed “fresh
reinforcement units”. Greater use of force was not only against the spirit of the Sochi
Agreement, but also against the very idea of peacekeeping.
Conclusion: Russia could not justify its use of force as a mere reinforcement and fulfilment
of its peacekeeping mission.
V. No justification of the use of force by invitation of the South Ossetian authorities
Russia argued that it intervened with military means “following a request from the
government of South Ossetia”.175 It is very controversial whether such an invitation is in
principle apt to legalize an intervention.
1. The special situation of a war of secession
Most historical cases have been civil wars in which two political parties strive to govern and
control an entire country. The accompanying scholarly debate on intervention upon invitation
relates to this type of situation. The case under scrutiny is distinct because initially it was a
war of secession. The two competing parties did not fight over the state of Georgia, but only
over the control over South Ossetia. This means that the “civil war” scenario was present
(only) with regard to one portion of Georgian territory. But because the war of secession was
a regionally limited “civil war” over the rule of South Ossetia, the legal concept of
intervention upon invitation is in principle applicable with regard to this territory.
In a civil war situation, it is controversial whether one of the competing governments – and if
so which – is competent to “invite” a third state and thus can lawfully consent to the third
state’s use of force. State practice has been chaotic in this field. In scholarship, three legal
answers have been suggested.
2. Legal doctrines on “invitation” of foreign support in civil wars
a) Entitlement to invite foreign support only for established government
A first answer was given in traditional writing. This answer relies on a distinction: only the
established and internationally recognized government can pronounce an invitation with legal effect.176 This legal view leads to an asymmetrical situation: military intervention was deemed
permissible in support of the established government (in our case the Georgian Government),
but not in support of the “rebels” (in our case South Ossetia). It has even been argued that
specifically in wars of secession, a third party may lawfully intervene upon invitation of the
established government (which would in our case justify intervention in favour of the
Georgian Government only).177 However, state practice does not support this assertion. Third
parties have not availed themselves of a right to intervene in any instances of attempted
secession solely on the grounds that the government had asked them to intervene and to fight
against the seceding parties.178
Moreover, this traditional view presents the problem that third states enjoy discretion as to
which government to recognize. Different third states may lawfully recognize different
pretending governments of the state. If third states could lawfully support the government of
their choice by military means, the consequence would be that the prohibition of the use of
force (Art. 2(4) of the UN Charter) would not apply at all to civil wars with foreign
intervention. This consequence is undesirable.179
3. No valid invitation by South Ossetia
One argument against the permissibility of an invitation extended to Russia by South Ossetia
is that even if this political entity has a right to self-determination, it is not entitled to use
force to exercise this right.
Military force is never admissible as a means to carry out a claim to self-determination,
including internal self-determination. There is no support in state practice for the right to use
force to attain self-determination outside the context of decolonization or illegal occupation.
Still less is there support by states for the right of ethnic groups to use force to secede from
existing states.184 This means that the use of force by secessionist groups is in any case illegal
under international law, even assuming that a right to secede exists. The general rule is that
South Ossetian authorities and armed forces were not themselves entitled to use force in order to attain self-determination. This also means that a secessionist party cannot validly invite a foreign state to use force against the army of the metropolitan state.
In any case, even if one were to accept the academic opinion that the South Ossetian
authorities were in principle competent to invite the Russian intervention on the grounds of
the international right to (internal) self-determination, they were not competent to authorize intervention in the whole of Georgia. The use of force within the territory of Georgia beyond the administrative boundaries of South Ossetia cannot be justified by “invitation”, whatever position is taken in the doctrinal debate.
4. Discussion and conclusions: no permissible invitation by South Ossetia
The doctrine of positive equality, even if it is limited to situations of stable territorial control,
condones the escalation of military force and is therefore not in conformity with the
objectives and principles of the United Nations. It is very open to abuse.
In contrast, the legal solution to prohibit intervention in a civil war or a war of secession
(doctrine of negative equality) is prudent from a policy perspective, because it removes the
pretext of “invitation” relied on by third states in order to camouflage interventions motivated
by their own policy objectives. This solution is also more operational and practical than the
contrary one, because it relieves lawyers of the difficult task of identifying and proving a
valid invitation. Finally, state practice rather seems to confirm the legal solution. In many historical cases, states have condemned and declared inadmissible interventions supposedly
conducted upon invitation.
To conclude, both under the doctrine of asymmetry and under the new doctrine of negative equality concerning intervention in a civil war, the South Ossetian authorities could not validly invite Russia to support them by military means. This conclusion is corroborated by the argument that secession may never be lawfully carried out by military means, even if it
were justified under exceptional circumstances, which is not the case here. And if the seceding party is prohibited from the use of force, it must also be prohibited from inviting third states to use military force. This means that the use of force by Russian troops in the territory under control of South Ossetian armed forces and authorities was not justified by the
invitation.
4. Discussion and conclusions: no permissible invitation by South Ossetia
The doctrine of positive equality, even if it is limited to situations of stable territorial control,
condones the escalation of military force and is therefore not in conformity with the
objectives and principles of the United Nations. It is very open to abuse.
In contrast, the legal solution to prohibit intervention in a civil war or a war of secession
(doctrine of negative equality) is prudent from a policy perspective, because it removes the
pretext of “invitation” relied on by third states in order to camouflage interventions motivated
by their own policy objectives. This solution is also more operational and practical than the
contrary one, because it relieves lawyers of the difficult task of identifying and proving a
valid invitation. Finally, state practice rather seems to confirm the legal solution. In many historical cases, states have condemned and declared inadmissible interventions supposedly
conducted upon invitation.
To conclude, both under the doctrine of asymmetry and under the new doctrine of negative
equality concerning intervention in a civil war, the South Ossetian authorities could not
validly invite Russia to support them by military means. This conclusion is corroborated by
the argument that secession may never be lawfully carried out by military means, even if it
were justified under exceptional circumstances, which is not the case here. And if the
seceding party is prohibited from the use of force, it must also be prohibited from inviting
third states to use military force. This means that the use of force by Russian troops in the
territory under control of South Ossetian armed forces and authorities was not justified by the
invitation.
4. Conclusions
Russian military activities against the Georgian military forces were not justified as collective
self-defence under international law.
5. Application to this specific case
Even if it were accepted that a Georgian attack on Russian citizens were in principle apt to
constitute a case of self-defence, the legal conditions for self-defence were not met in the case
at hand.
First of all, the Russian intervention in Georgia was not limited to a “Blitz”-type action and
was not solely focused on rescuing and evacuating Russian citizens. Its intensity surpassed the
minimum threshold of intensity required by Art. 2(4) of the UN Charter. It cannot be said that
the military action was not “directed against the territorial integrity or political independence”
of Georgia, because it did support the territorial separation of South Ossetia.
The constitutional obligation to protect Russian nationals (Art. 61(2) of the Russian
constitution, quoted above) cannot serve as a justification for intervention under international
law. Domestic law can in principle not be invoked as a justification for a breach of an
international legal rule.211 At most, domestic constitutional law could be invoked as a defence
against obligations imposed on a state by international law if those obligations contradict core
elements of the national constitution. But this situation is not present here, because Art. 61(2)
is not a basic principle of Russian constitutional law, which would be constitutive of Russian
constitutional identity. Moreover, it is not clear that this provision required Russian
authorities to take military action. Russia cannot argue that the international legal obligation
to refrain from intervening in Georgia violates a core principle of its constitution.
Furthermore, a distinction must be drawn between those citizens who have possessed Russian
citizenship for a long time, and those citizens who have only recently acquired Russian
citizenship in the course of the broad Russian policy to confer Russian nationality in a
simplified procedure (see Chapter 3 “Related Legal Issues”). With regard to this latter group
of “new” Russians, it seems abusive to rely on their need for protection as a reason for
intervention, because Russia itself has created this reason for intervention through its ownpolicy.212 This is especially the case if an effective or genuine link between Russia and those
new citizens is lacking. Although the conferral of citizenship and nationality lies in the
domaine reservé of states, citizenship will be recognized by international law for the purpose
of diplomatic protection only if there is a sufficiently genuine link between the persons
concerned and the state. Put differently, a state is entitled to exercise diplomatic protection
only for those “genuine” citizens. The ICJ has in the Nottebohm case described the genuine
link “with regard to the exercise of protection” as follows: preference must be given “to the
real and effective nationality, that which accorded with the facts that based on stronger factual
ties between the person concerned and one of the States whose nationality is involved.
Different factors are taken into consideration, and their importance will vary from one case to
the next: the habitual residence of the individual concerned is an important factor, but there
are other factors such as the centre of his interests, his family ties, his participation in public
life, attachment shown by him for a given country and inculcated in his children, etc.” 213
This rather strict requirement also applies to other types of protective activity abroad,
including military protection.214 Because this type of protective action is – contrary to
diplomatic action – controversial in itself, the requirements concerning the relationship
between the protecting state and the protected persons must arguably be even closer. With
regard to most citizens living in South Ossetia, a genuine link in the sense just described is
obviously lacking (see above Chapter 3 “Related Legal Issues”).
In conclusion, the Russian intervention in Georgia cannot be justified as a rescue operation
for Russian nationals in Georgia.
Part 5: Use of force in Abkhazia
I. Facts
In the morning of 9 August 2008 Abkhaz authorities demanded UNOMIG to leave Upper
Abkhazia; UNOMIG left the area. This was a clear indication that a military operation in the
Kodori Valley was imminent.
According to the Georgian account, between 13:40 and 14:40, Russian military aircraft
bombed the villages controlled by the central government in the upper Kodori Valley. At
15:50 the Abkhaz de facto Government announced that it had decided to send its armed forces
towards the administrative border and to start a military operation. On 10 August at 17:40, the
Abkhaz de facto President Sergey Bagapsh declared mobilisation and martial law on the
territory of Abkhazia. By 18:30 Russian troops and Abkhaz militia were deployed along the
administrative border at the Inguri River, and the Kodori Valley was bombed by artillery and
aircraft. On 11 August Russian troops and Abkhaz militia reportedly started to occupy
villages in the upper Kodori Valley. The civilian population had been evacuated.215
According to the Abkhaz side, air attacks started on 9 August at 14:30.216 The Abkhaz views
submitted to the Fact-Finding Mission note that “the operation in the gorge was carried out by
the Armed Forces of the Abkhaz Republic without any outside assistance and was confined
strictly to the territory of the Republic of Abkhazia.”217
According to the Russian side, on 9 August 2009 “by 18:00 the Armed Forces of Abkhazia
augmented their troup presence in the area designated as a CIS peacekeeping force
observation post (NP No. 107) in order to carry out an operation in the Kodori gorge. During
the night of 9 to 10 August 2008, units of the Abkhaz Armed Forces conducted a raid along
the southern bank of the Inguri River to identify any Georgian military presence.” Further it is
stated that “the Abkhaz troops aided by the airborne battalion task force undertook a sequence
of actions and occupied the Kodori Valley virtually without encountering any resistance.”218
As a matter of fact, most ethnic Georgians left the upper Kodori Valley. The territory was
occupied by Abkhaz forces, supported by Russian paratroopers.
II. Legal qualification of the Abkhaz and Russian offensive: violation of the prohibition
of the use of force and armed attack on Georgia
As explained in Chapter 3, Abkhazia is a state-like entity. The prohibition of the use of force
is applicable. This is also explicitly confirmed by the 1994 Moscow Agreement (Agreement
on a ceasefire and separation of forces) which states: “The parties shall scrupulously observe
the ceasefire on land, at sea and in the air and shall refrain from all military operations against
each other.“219
Although there was no clear ceasefire line in the Kodori Valley, the upper Kodori Valley did
not belong to Abkhaz-controlled territory under the provisions of the Moscow Agreement.
The attack on the upper Kodori Valley by Abkhaz troops supported by paratroopers must
therefore be qualified as use of force prohibited by Art. 2(4) of the Charter and moreover as
an “armed attack” on Georgia in the sense of Art. 51 of the UN Charter.220
III. Legal qualification of the Georgian operation: self-defence
The military operation in the upper Kodori Valley was, for the reasons just explained, an
armed attack on Georgia. The use of force by Georgia was justified as self-defence.
IV. No justification of the Abkhaz and Russian use of force against Georgia
1. Argumentation by Abkhazia and Russia
The Abkhaz side gives basically four explanations for the use of force. First, Abkhazia
claimed that the operation was “launched to liberate the Kodori Gorge.”221
Second, Abkhazia claimed that military action was necessary to counter terrorist attacks. Thus
in the context of explaining why refugees were prevented from returning it was stated:
“Shortly before the events of August the Georgian special services carried out a series of
terrorist attacks in Abkhaz cities, targeting the civilian population. Innocent people suffered as a consequence and on 6 July 2008, a terrorist attack in the city of Gali caused the deaths of
four people and serious injuries to several others.”222
Third, Abkhazia claimed self-defence against an imminent threat of Georgian attack. In this
respect, the official explanation in the address given by de facto President Bagapsh on 9
August at 13:00 is the following: “In connection with military provocations that took place in
the security zone last night, with the shooting at Abkhaz posts by the Georgian side we have
taken the decision to lead subdivisions of the Abkhaz army into the region of Gali, into the
zone of collective responsibility of peacekeeping forces. The Commander of the peacekeepers
and the UN Mission have been informed about all our actions. Clearly knowing that in this
way Abkhazia violates the Moscow Agreement, with the full understanding that this is a
violation of the Moscow Agreement, we have nevertheless taken this decision, because there
was no other solution. I repeat once more that our actions are absolutely justified; their aim is
to ensure the security of the people, the Abkhaz State.”223 The introduction of the state of war
has been explained as follows: “In connection with the armed attack of Georgia against South
Ossetia, and also with the direct threat of an aggression by Georgia against the Republic of
Abkhazia …”.224
Fourth, Abkhazia argues that it was obliged “to open a second front” in order to distract the
Georgian forces from South Ossetia. This purported obligation was derived from the Treaty
on Friendship and Cooperation between the Republic of Abkhazia and the Republic of South
Ossetia, concluded on 19 September 2005.
The justification given by the Russian side is the following: “Despite the fact that the
Georgian side never attacked Abkhazia, the deployment of additional Russian troops in the
territory was necessary since there were compelling reasons to believe that an attack of some
size was to be launched against Abkhazia once the Ossetian issue was resolved. The assumption that Georgia harboured such plans was confirmed by the information gathered by
Russian and Abkhaz intelligence services.”225
All these arguments can constitute a legally permissible justification only to the extent that
they point to an armed attack by Georgia on Abkhazia. Only in the event of an armed attack
by Georgia (which was not present, as will be shown), could Abkhazia have relied on selfdefence.
Russian involvement could not be justified as collective self-defence in favour of Abkhazia,
because third-party involvement in an internal military conflict in support of the seceding
party is not allowed for the reasons explained above.
2. No previous “armed attack” by Georgia
a) No Georgian military operation in the Kodori Valley by Georgia
Abkhazia argues that it had to “liberate” the Kodori Valley. This refers to a Georgian
operation or military occupation of Abkhaz territory. Such action might qualify as
“aggression” in the sense of Art. 3(a) Resolution 3314, and therefore also as an armed attack
in the sense of Art. 51 of the UN Charter.
Yet, even if Abkhazia shows all characteristics of a state-like entity, it had no right to
secession under international law (see Chapter 3 “Related Legal Issues”). Abkhazia had no
legal title to that territory. This also follows from the Moscow Agreement under which the
Kodori Valley falls outside the jurisdiction of Abkhazia.
Conclusions: For these reasons, the presence of Georgian police or military in the Kodori
Valley cannot be considered as an armed attack on Abkhazia.
b) No preceding terrorist attacks sponsored by Georgia
The Abkhaz military operation cannot be justified by alleged earlier terrorist attacks
attributable to Georgia either. The involvement of Georgia could not be confirmed by
UNOMIG.
c) No imminent armed attack on Abkhazia as a whole by Georgia
As explained above, it is very controversial whether an imminent attack confers the right to
self-defence. In any case, Abkhazia cannot claim that a Georgian attack on Abkhazia as a whole was imminent. When the Abkhaz operation in the Kodori Valley started with Russian
support, the Georgian troops were already “on the run”. Even if there had been a Georgian
plan to attack Abkhazia, it was evident that on 9 August 2008 no such attack was “imminent”
or even feasible. International law does not allow self-defence against putative attacks or
attacks that might have been planned, but were never carried out.
3. Military support by Abkhazia for South Ossetia
As explained above, neither collective defence nor the principle of intervention upon
invitation legally justified the Russian military support of South Ossetia. Abkhazia’s military
actions were not even supportive of South Ossetia, but aimed at conquering additional
territory. Therefore they cannot be justified as collective self-defence in support of South
Ossetia.
4. Conclusion
The use of force by Abkhazia was not justified under international law and was thus illegal.
The same applies to the Russian support for Abkhaz use of force.