Nicaragua and Russia, Peers and Allies
EDITORIAL
Russia wants Cold War
Earlier this week, apparently as payback for recognition of Ossetia, Russia announced it would hold joint military exercises with arch American enemy Nicaragua. A glowering Sergei Lavrov spit in Barack Obama’s eye and sat down next to a preening, arrogant Nicaraguan dictator, Daniel Ortega, and together they openly declared cold war on the world’s only superpower. Russia also openly offered bribes to Cuba in exchange for recognition of Ossetia.
It’s difficult to know what aspect of this malignant transaction is the more simultaneously outrageous and pathetic.
Is it that Russia is provoking a weak-kneed, conciliatory president into defiance, just the same way it did to Jimmy Carter when it invaded Afghanistan? The fact that Russia can’t see the breathtakingly self-destructive nature of its actions showing contempt for a many who held out his hand in friendship and reconciliation? The fact that it doesn’t fear the vengeful retribution of the world’s most powerful country?
Or is it that Russia isn’t ashamed to be seen begging, borrowing and pleading for recognition for third-rate rogue states for its obscene invasion of Georgia?
Could it be Russia’s inability to see the precedent it is setting, justifying the further expansion of NATO and the arming of countries like Georgia and Ukraine?
Perhaps. Or perhaps it is simply Russia’s perception that the United States will react to this provocation by bowing before awesome Russian power and ceding to Russia the Soviet “sphere of influence” throughout post-Soviet space.
Still, for all that we can’t help but offer our deepest, most heartfelt thanks to KGB dictator Vladimir Putin. We can’t imagine any better way of showing the Obama administration how utterly foolish it was to offer Russia a unilateral “reset” of relations, preceded by a roll=back of America’s missile shield plan for Eastern Europe. Putin has utterly humiliated Obama before the eyes of the world, exactly the same way Brezhnev did to Carter with the invasion of Afghanistan.
Maybe that’s what Obama needs to finally understand the nature of the scourge he faces in the glowering Kremlin towers.
La Russophobe 
To be honest, do you think the US is concerned about a few aged rustbuckets floating slowly of the coast of Nicaragua?
That is if the boats don’t break down before they get there.
Russia is frantic! The USA is simply ignoring it as a military threat.
All the discussions are now about simply reducing nuclear missiles. There are no discussions about tank numbers, air fighter numbers, ship numbers etc any more.
Why? Because we all know that the Russian tanks are useless, the planes can’t fly and the ships barely float.
The Russians military technology is so poor that they are buying ships from a NATO country! Soon no doubt they will buy planes from France too and then probably UK or German tanks !
Depends what you mean by “concerned.” If you mean is the US worried it will be attacked by Nicaragua, then no. If you mean is the US worried Nicaragua will be embolded to attempt to spread its revolution to neigbhoring states that don’t have the benefit of Russian aid, then any properly conscientious American government would be very concerned. Ossetia would never have dared attack Georgia without Russian encouragement.
LoL
I just read the following in the Moscow Times
Russia Buying APCs From France
“Russia is in talks to buy armored vehicles from France — Kommersant reported Tuesday — despite complaints already from some East European NATO members about French plans to sell a warship to Moscow.
The Interior Ministry is discussing with French firm Panhard “a small consignment” of four-person amphibious armored personnel carriers, the report said, citing unidentified French officials. An Interior Ministry spokesman declined comment.”
Venezuela and Nicaragua; price charged to Russia for recognition of the breakaway republics of Abkhazia / South Ossetia = $1 billion loan!! Each, too buy Russian military hardware,
The only other place to grant recognition is Nauru which is a pimple sized island in the pacific, its only claim to fame is the part it played in the looting of the Russian economy in the 1990’s, this pimple acted as an off shore bank distributing $500 billion worth of Russian assets across the globe, Why would Putin and his cronies who claim to have played no part in the looting want to keep these comfy cordial ties with this pimple island?… well your guess is as good as mine!! (Stinks a bit).
Another country that came close to recognising the breakaway republics was Somalia, in 2008 Russian media reported recognition was imminent, But Somalia backed out at the last minuet, It would appear that Somalia a country which has a government in name only, a country who’s GDP is now based on piracy (Blackbeard would be so proud), Even this sad nation wouldn’t stoop low enough to grant recognise to these illegitimate “slither” states.
Russia’s global influence is a joke even Belarus told Putin to “clear off”
“preening, arrogant Nicaraguan dictator, Daniel Ortega,”
How about: preening, arrogant Nicaraguan child rapist Daniel Ortega? How pathetic that Putin has to turn to the likes of him for anything!
http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1316871&ct=3221763
“I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward
and trustworthy. We had a very good dialogue. I was able to get a
sense of his soul;”—- GW Bush on V Putin
According to my Nicaraguan acquitance, Ortega completely ceased to be a communist (for his fomer comrades: “betrayed revolution” and all that) and became a full-blown fascist.
Well, so it’s just like in the case of Lavrov & Co. No wonder they get well together.
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As for worrying Obama, Obama hasn’t anything upstairs to worry with. In addition he is so busy rebuilding the Republican party that he has no time for Latin America.
Git ‘R’ Dun
Also I read somewhere that Russia is very short of employees who know how to build military equipment. Even making copies of other nations equipment is not that easy. You have to know what you are doing just to do that.
As far as I understand, Ortega is not a dictator at all, but a controversial communist-turned-businessman who came to power democratically, but has shown a very questionable degree of competence, to put it mildly. Nicaragua is the second-poorest country in the Western hemisphere (after Haiti) and it’s likely that Ortega hopes to secure handouts from the Russians in return for acting like their little lackey. Of course, that’s a very stupid move. Nicaragua would be better off economically if it had better ties with the US.
I’ve heard someone suggest that Russia should come up with their own alternative to NATO: it could be called NARTO (Nicaragua and Russia Treaty Organization). And they could also bring in the Somali pirates, Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah and Hamas, to form a truly fearsome military block, a veritable counterweight to NATO :)
This Nicaraguan move is another sign of vulnerability of the Putin regime.
They were doing the same thing with Chevas some time ago which just looks silly. I believe the Putin government is close to the end.
I believe your United Snakes is close to the end.
How conveniently have the following facts been forgotten and thrown down the memory hole:
1. The US armed and trained Nicaraguan terrorists (Contras) which Reagan called “freedom fighters” to attack the legitimate government of Nicaragua all through the 1980s
2. by arming the Contras and having the CIA mine the harbors, the US was CONDEMNED in 1986 at the World Court for international terrorism and was ordered to halt its activities, it utterly refused
3. the UN condemned the US in a Security Council resolution, ordering an immediate cessation of its terrorism in Nicaragua; the resolution was dismissed with contempt
It is outrageous that Russia wants to form a military alliance with a country in the Western hemisphere. This goes to the basic Monroe Doctrine that Latin America belongs to USA.
In retaliation, USA should form military alliances with the countries in the Russian backyard, like Poland, Latvia, Estonia, etc.
But wait, Poland, Latvia, Estonia etc are already in NATO.
But we are Americans. We are allowed to do anything our military and oil companies please.
Just because we are surrounding Russia with NATO allies – that’s not Cold War! But when Russia does it – it’s Cold War!
the hypocrisy of the United Snakes is through the roof and beyond the atmosphere
Funny Russia is in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization with China and most of its puppet ex soviet states. NATO has never attacked Russia and Russia has resumed Cold War bomber flights paths to North America and continues to sell arms to regimes that harbor terrorist. Threatened to nuke Poland over minuscule interceptors which were confirmed to not affect Russia strategic defense capabilities. You wonder why NATO is still around when Russia has never changed since the collapse of the USSR.
The US has since the collapse of the Soviet Union, attacked the following nations:
1. Iraq (1991)
2. Somalia (1993)
3. Iraq (1991-2003, sanctions and 156,000 illegal sorties over Iraqi airpsace)
4. Sudan (1998) — had nothing to do with the terrorist attack in Nairobi/Dar-us-Salaam
5. Serbia (1999) — one of the most cowardly attacks by the criminal US
6. Afghanistan (2001) — they had nothing to do with 9/11, most have figured it out by now
7. Iraq (2003) — sadistic invasion with torture, routine bombing, etc.
8. Syria (2005) — attacked a village and refused to apologize
9. Somalia (2006) — attacked a defenseless village and claimed they were terrorists
10. Lebanon (2006) — joint US-Israeli attack
11. Pakistan (2006-present) countless drone attacks on defenseless villages, almost 1000 killed
12. South Ossetia (2008) assisted the Georgians in their invasion by arming, training, and propagandizing them
This list excludes all the covert operations undertaken in many Third World nations.
The United Snakes is by far the worst terrorist state on Earth.
Russia =
USSR — 20 million deaths
Ukraine – 10 million people in Holodomor 1932-33 genecide
30 million people killed by russia in Ukraine
China — 65 million people killed
Vietnam — 1 million people
North Korea — 2 million deaths
Eastern Europe — 1 million deaths
Afghanistan — 1.5 million deaths
Has the justice been served???
Putin still in power killing everyone aginst Russia from Chechens to journalists
Has the justice been served???
Russia-North Caucas 1500-1864
Tha Occupation of Tatar people ( Idel-Ural) in 1552
The occupation of Ukraine by Russia – 1650s
Russia – Crimea – 1783
Russia – Poland – 1795
Russia – Eastern Georgia – September 21, 1801,April 1802
Russia — Georgia (1810-1864)
Mass murdering of 1 Million Caucasians by Russia – 1859-1880
Russia – Japan – 1905-1905
Russia – Ukraine – 1920
Russia -Poland – 1920
Russia – Azerbaijan – 1920
Russia – Armenia – 1920
Russia-Georgia-1921
Russia – Poland -1939
Russia-Basarabia and north Bucovina from Romania (1940)
Russia – Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia – 1940
Russia (USSR) – Finland – 1940
Russia (USSR) – Hungary – 1956
Russia (USSR) – Czechoslovakia – 1968
Russia (USSR) – Afghanistan – 1979-1989
Russia – Georgia – 1919, 1920 (April-May), 1921, 1924, 1991-93
Russia-Chechnya – 1994-96, 1996-2000
Russia – Georgia – August 2008
Russia -…
wow, what an argument.
the guy above goes gives examples of American crimes since the collapse of the Soviet Union (aka modern times, the times when the entire world’s supposed to have progressed and lived in peace)
and the retard below goes and lists Russia’s attacks from stone age LOL
that’s an equivalent of having two athletes compete for gold and giving one athlete higher total marks based on the sum of his performances from the past 5 olympics LOL
well done hahahaha
PutinKaput,
Your response indicates a gross incomprehension of both the premise and the conclusion.
You obviously either cannot read or are simply a fanatical worshiper of the criminal US.
[Russia-North Caucas 1500-1864]
Could you please go father back in history? Say, to ancient Egypt?
The fact that you have to go this far back shows how indefensible your cause is.
What I find interesting about your list is that the US does not remain in (or never occupied) any of the countries that you listed, except for Iraq and Afghanistan. The US is scheduled to leave Iraq completely this August 2010 and Obama would dearly like to leave Afghanistan as well. Could the reason be that these were actions designed to safeguard America’s interests (examples: Iraq & Afghanistan) or to stop the murder of innocent people (Serbia & Somalia)? Russia, on the other hand, tends to occupy the countries that it attacks (see the entire 20th Century as reference and more recently the Georgian occupation).
US leaving Iraq? When pigs fly.
US leaving Afghanistan? Not in our lifetime, bro.
Safeguarding America’s interests? Well, that just reveals your true colors — your interests are stealing their oil, plain and simple.
Stopping the murder of innocent people? The US murders innocent people daily.
USA will leave Iraq when the Iraqi oil is depleted.
Seriously? Please enlighten me regarding the interaction between the US troops in Iraq and the Iraqi oil.
Do they even have any unit for whatever they do with this oil there (I don’t know what, you tell me), like for example Kadyrov has the Oil Regiment (Neftepolk, formerly headed by now Interpol-wanted Adam Delimkhanov)? I wonder, explain.
Btw,
Russia’s oil giant signs contract to develop Iraq’s oil field
Tue 02 February 2010
http://www.news.az/articles/8101
Iraq 1991 – UN mandated, even Russia sent troops to that one.
Somalia 1993 – UN mandated
Iraq 1991-2003 – UN mandated
Serbia 1999 – After repeated attempts to get the UN to stop Serbian ethnic cleansing of Albanian population of Kosovo (Frustrated by Serbia’s genocidal friends at the UN….) the US and Europe intervene to stop Serbian war crimes.
Afghanistan 2001 – UN mandated (even Russia voted in favour one might add)
Lebanon 2006 – Well of course Sabubu is just being retarded here……
Tell the millions of Iraqi mothers who have lost sons and daughters, as a result of being killed by the US, that the invasion was approved with a mandate from the UN.
Well in 1991 Iraq did invade Kuwait and rape and murder much of its population.
No invasion of Kuwait, no counter attack by pretty much the rest of the world (including Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt……)
Learn some history.
You learn how to not travel a thousand kilometers to kill babies, you cretinous Yank.
Yeah Andrew, take it easy on that baby-killing, you damn Yank :)
@Tell the millions of Iraqi mothers who have lost sons and daughters, as a result of being killed by the US,
Hey, it’s trillions of Iraqi mothers.
[Russia announced it would hold joint military exercises with arch American enemy Nicaragua. ]
Again, while USA has been holding military exercises with arch Russian enemy Georgia, that’s not an act of Cold War.
But when Russia retaliates by holding military exercises with Nicaragua – that’s provoking a Cold War.
And of course, Nicaragua is USA’s arch enemy. Nicaragua is a powerful country of 6 million people that annually spends a whopping $36 million on defence, compared to $607 billion that USA spends annually. Thus, Nicaragua’s spending is about 0.0006% that of USA. That’s what USA considers its “arch enemy”!
An astute observer would ask: “Why would we call the President of Nicaragua “a preening, arrogant dictator”? Wasn’t he elected democratically?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua#Government
Politics of Nicaragua takes place in a framework of a presidential representative democratic republic, whereby the President of Nicaragua is both head of state and head of government, and of a multi-party system. Executive power is exercised by the government. Legislative power is vested in both the government and the National Assembly. The Judiciary is independent of the executive and the legislature.
Currently, Nicaragua’s major political parties have been discussing the possibility of going from a presidential system to a parliamentary system. This way, there would be a clear differentiation between the head of government (Prime Minister) and the head of state (President).
……………………
But these people don’t understand the definition of “democracy” in American and British English. A country is “democratic” if it is subservient to USA. If it acts independently – it is a dictatorship.
Understanding “the definition of democracy in American and British English” in 3 easy steps.
1. Make a protest sign: JAIL THE FASCIST [local head-of-state’s name here] NOW!!
2. Walk anywhere in Washington, Ottawa, Canberra, or any EU national capital with this sign displayed prominently for one hour or until arrested.
3. Repeat Step 2, but in Moscow, Managua, Sukhumi, Tskhinvali, Caracas, Minsk, Pyongyang, Beijing, Tashkent, Havana, Harare, Islamabad, Riyadh, Tehran, Cairo, Damascus, etc.
Enjoy.
(Or course, there is one caveat to this reasoning, and Russians probably think it invalidates the whole argument. Americans have complete and total freedom to call for America’s collapse — but of course Russians, Iranians, etc. also have complete and total freedom to call for America’s collapse too.)
Begin with the premise that the US is a perpetually criminal, illegal entity since its founding, and then your argument collapse entirely
@Begin with the premise that the US is a perpetually criminal, illegal entity since its founding,
Interesting. Don’t you think the government of the British Empire got over it already by 1917, at the very least? If there’s anything I don’t know about it, please tell me now.
Of course they got over it. There’s nothing they could do.
Physically LOL
So how is this “perpetually criminal, illegal entity since its founding”, if the British Empire (which is no more anyway) fully recognised its independence even before the Russian Empire collapsed?
Read what I wrote above. They recognized it because they had no choice.
Americans would have smoked the Brittish army by that point if they attempted any kind of military activity.
It’s the first time since George III that I hear about the U.S. being an illegal state. About being criminal and terrorist, I’ve heard a lot, so your rhetoric has lost its effect.
But I am surprised you forgot to mention that Israel is also criminal and should be destroyed and that Hitler was right. Most persons of your ilk usually mention this.
Why don’t you go shoot more Palestinian civilians
@Why don’t you go shoot more Palestinian civilians
Why don’t you compare figures for the dead Palestinian and the dead Caucasian civilians.
And then the media coverage given to them. See for example, how much attention was given to this: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D04EEDB1E3DF932A15755C0A96E9C8B63
“WORLD BRIEF” they said, and that’s called it right. About 800 corpses is quite a some, but it’s all told in the total of four sentences (including one about the other 50+ known mass graves).
But I guess you do care a LOT now, once you were informed? Right? Just tell me how much are you appealed.
“since its founding”
Oy vey! Sweetheart, you just lambasted the other meshuggana for going “all the way back” to the Circassian pogroms of 1864. But now 1776 is fair game. This must be mathematical and historiographic equivalent of Lysenkoist biology. Patriarch Kiril needs to sprinkle holy water on me with his metal surrogate phallus before I understand.
[Walk anywhere in Washington with this sign displayed prominently for one hour or until arrested.]
It will take you much less than an hour to get arrested, as 54 peaceful demonstrators in Washington, DC were last month, on top of 62 demonstrators arrested last April:
http://thehill.com/homenews/news/77417-police-arrest-guantanamo-protesters-at-capitol
Police arrest Guantanamo protesters
01/21/10 03:45 PM ET
Capitol Police on Thursday arrested more than 40 people protesting the delay in closing the Guantanamo Bay prison. The protesters, clad in orange jumpsuits, swarmed by the East Front steps of the Capitol and were arrested between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m. on Thursday. They were charged with disorderly conduct and unlawful assembly.
Capitol Police also arrested a separate group of 14 demonstrators in the Capitol Rotunda, who were charged with the same offenses, according to a Capitol Police spokeswoman.
The protesters were from the group Witness Against Torture, which posted video footage on its website of members walking the halls of the Senate Hart Office Building. Names of individual Guantanamo detainees were written on the backs of the protesters’ jumpsuits.
http://100dayscampaign.org/node/489
May 1, 2009
On Thursday, April 30th, 62 members of Witness Against Torture were arrested at the gates of the White House demanding that the Obama administration support a criminal inquiry into torture under the Bush administration and release innocent detainees still held at Guantanamo. Facing the White House, each of the arrestees wore the name of a Guantanamo inmate who had been cleared for release or who had died at the prison. A giant banner they carried read “Justice Delayed is Justice Denied.”
[or any EU national capital]
Well, in London, if you accidentally walk by a peaceful demonstration, you can easily be beaten up to death by the police:
Ian Tomlinson assaulted from behind by riot police at G20 Protest in London.
Ian Tomlinson, a 47-year-old who worked in a newsagents, died at in London during the protests. He was on his way home from the shop when he collapsed in St Michael’s Alley.
The police hit him with a baton and pushed him from behind even though he was walking away from them with his hands in his pockets.
Arthur,
Shamil Katayev assaulted by the Russian special forces at Arshty – 12-02-10:
They were not event demonstrating or anything. They were just picking stuff in the forest, with oficial permission.
http://www.memo.ru/daytoday/index.htm
Shot in the head, their crotches maimed with knives. “In crossfire” (http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100213/157872886.html ).
Please tell me you see the difference.
Pleaee.
Arthur,
Shamil Katayev assaulted by the Russian special forces at Arshty – 12-02-10:
They were not event demonstrating or anything. They were just picking stuff in the forest, with oficial permission.
http://www.memo.ru/daytoday/index.htm
Shot in the head, maimed with knives. “In crossfire” (http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100213/157872886.html ).
Please tell me you DO see the difference.
Sigh….
As usual Arthurina fails to note the difference between peacefully protesting on a public thoroughfare, and entering something like the state legislatures grounds (ie the steps of the capitol) without a permit due to security concerns.
Try entering the Duma or Kremlin grounds without a permit and being arrested will be the least of your worries.
Hospitalisation would be the best outcome.
As for Ian Tomlinson, as previously stated a shocking incident, however as usual our resident Putinophile Arthur forgets to mention the officers involved are on trial for murder in the UK.
In Russia they would get promotions and medals.
“As usual Arthurina fails to note the difference between peacefully protesting on a public thoroughfare, and entering something like the state legislatures grounds (ie the steps of the capitol) without a permit due to security concerns.”
In fairness, breaking into buildings seems to be an act of political courtesy in Russia. In fact, their police will graciously include that item even if the hooligans neglected to perform the deed themselves. At least the preferred Russian nomenclature seems to be “hooliganism” — which must be one of those “false friends” that sounds similar to English but means something radically. If you have an opinion, or at least the wrong opinion, you’re a hooligan in Russia, like that Anna Politovskaya lady.
Fortunately, the OMON will perform the social service of gently beating you into a proper disposition with their magic wellness batons. Is it any wonder that so many unfortunate nekulturny Yanks emigrate to this paradise on earth? Well, if not Yanks, then Tajiks and Kyrgyz.
@Ian Tomlinson, a 47-year-old who worked in a newsagents, died at in London during the protests. He was on his way home from the shop when he collapsed in St Michael’s Alley. The police hit him with a baton and pushed him from behind even though he was walking away from them with his hands in his pockets.
Shamil Katayev, a 19-year-old who worked picking up stuff in the forest, died on the border of Chechnya and Ingushetia last week (February 12, 2010). He was not even protesting. He was just working there with official permission, along with several others, when they were attacked by “the police”. Shamil and at least three others were killed (with guns and KNIVES, finished-off on the ground and then further mutilated), two others were wounded but managed to escape, and at least one other person is still missing.
Here is his dead body, with several bullet wounds on his head:
And the official story, according to which they died “in crossfire”: http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100213/157872886.html
Of course, not at all an isolated incident. There were tens of thousands dead Waynakh civilians (“citiziens of Russia”) since the 1990s. Maybe hundreds of thousands. Who knows? There is not even an official count of the dead “Untermenschen” (“apes” according to the English-speaking ethnic Russians on YouTube, “black asses” according to the ethnic Russians in the street), you know? I guess you know. They all had names and faces, just like Shamil. (And well, they actually shot him in the face.) They had families, and some of these families were all wiped-out. Their homes, villages, city districts were literally leveled and you bastards called this “constitutional order” (the order of murder, kidnapping, torture, looting, rape, arson, robbery, in thousands and thousands of cases).
So what are you trying to say now, you complete, total idiot?
Here is what a group of Russian riot police did in a Chechen village 10 years and and 13 days ago:
http://www.watchdog.cz/?show=000000-000024-000006-000011&lang=1
It’s a documentary by Natalia Estemirova (among others) in 2009. Yes, she was soon herself kidnapped and killed by the “unknown assailants” – wearing uniforms “the police” (or rather, of “the militia”, because Russia has no police, they have only “the militia”).
Arthur likes men in uniform with big black boots and truncheons who march around the city in a climate of fear.
Odd huh?
as opposed to men without uniforms with rain boots who march around Copenhagen city in fear of climate change?
LOL
Wal, on the other hand, likes men in uniform with big black boots and truncheons who march around the Village in a climate of MERRIMENT and gaiety.
Hmmm….
Copying what I said is hardly an admirable riposte Arty, but, given the seriousness of your foetal-alcohol syndrome I might be tempted to give you another chance.
In between the next 10 hours it takes for you to formulate a reply, might I suggest this wonderful video portraying young Russian males doing what they do best?
So, that’s what’s happening at a Russian night club when one is currently not burning down?
Uploader’s comment:
“This is what you call sucker punching bitches. Faggots that don’t know how to fight people or just too damn scared, pull this bullshit and think themselves tough.
In russia do you find pussies like this all over the place. “
So that’s what is happening at a Russian night club when one is currently not burning down?
It’s just the Russian way to have fun. Have a look at a typical Russian wedding for instance:
And here’s a good illustration of Russian foreign policy and military might:
Do you have any video from the famed “Paratrooper’s Day”?
(Featuring hordes of drunk degenerates in striped shirts in striped shirts on the streets and in the parks across Russia: http://englishrussia.com/?p=3711 )
Hehe. nice. And here’s some evidence of Russian military competence:
Russia is very one dimensional when it comes to foreign policy, in 2008 they had a joint navel exercise with Venezuela, this consisted of 4 old rust buckets limping there way across the Atlantic to play games with Venezuela’s mighty navy which consists of 4 off shore frigates, 6 missile frigates and 6 patrol boat (hardly the Spanish Armada)
Now they will probably send the same tired old ships back to play around with Nicaragua’s even more pathetic navy, if you call it a navy, as it only consists of a handful of 1980’s patrol boats,
Russia plays these childish games when they want some of big daddy America’s attention, I wonder how their BRIC partner Brazil feels about Russia’s unwelcome presence in the region?
By the way to really have any global military influence you need a blue water Navy just look at the decline of the Russian fleet, and you will understand just how pathetic Russia really is. First figures are the totals for 1985, second is 2010.
Aircraft carrier = 5
Cruiser = 32
Destroyer =74
Frigates = 32
Corvettes = 185
SSBN = 83
SSGN = 72
SSN = 71
SSK = 140
Now
Aircraft carrier = 1
Cruiser = 5
Destroyer =14
Frigates = 6
Corvettes = 64
SSBN = 10
SSGN = 5
SSN = 14
SSK = 18
This pathetic Russian navy is less powerful than Britain’s, as for comparing it to the USA’s well don’t even bother.
Actually, I think they are working on a new ‘stealth’ design…
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2007/01/09/tuesday_map_russian_naval_ships_rusting_outside_murmansk
Russia to put military base in Georgia’s Abkhazia
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iA_q3mcvbweZYWMyw31KrW30EvUwD9DU34E01
Abkhazia and South Ossetia, another separatist-held part of Georgia, declared independence after the 2008 Russia-Georgia war. Thousands of Russian troops are thought to have remained in the Moscow-sponsored republics, which Georgia and the West consider sovereign Georgian land.
The real reason for the war.
As any serious observer knows, the Russians could not give a rats arse for the Abkhazians and Ossetians (See the Federal security forces massacre of Ossetian kids at Beslan for example).
The just want military bases on the south side of the caucasus with which to threaten Georgia and those pipelines to the west.
http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17164&Itemid=132
This week, the Abkhaz separatist leader, Sergei Bagapsh, arrived in Moscow to sign a number of deals with President Dmitry Medvedev on military, logistical, financial and economic cooperation. The Russian military have been officially allowed to establish a permanent “unified military base” in Abkhazia for 49 years with the possibility of prolongation. The signing was specially planned by the Russian authorities to occur on February 17, to commemorate the 200th anniversary of “Abkhazia voluntarily becoming part of Russia,” and now following the same course (RIA Novosti, February 17).
The Abkhazian princedom was once part of the medieval Georgian kingdom and later became a protectorate of the Ottoman (Turkish) empire. Most of the Abkhaz converted to Islam. In the early nineteenth century, Russian troops displaced the Turks from the South Caucasus and on February 17, 1810 Abkhazia became a Russian protectorate. Until 1864, Russian rule in Abkhazia was nominal, but after suppressing resistance by Chechen, Dagestani and Circassian Muslim rebels in the North Caucasus, Abkhazia was brutally annexed and its autonomy abolished. The Abkhaz rebelled in 1866 and in 1877 – 1878, were supported by Turkish troops during a war with Russia that ended in Turkish defeat in 1878. The Russian military victories were followed by the massive slaughter of the Circassian and Abkhaz population, followed by ethnic cleansing of survivors forcefully sent by sea to Turkey. The cleansed lands were resettled by Russians. That is how Sochi – the capital of the Winter Olympics in 2014 – became a Russian city. Some 90 percent of the Abkhaz population were either killed or forcibly exiled by the Russians and their loyal Georgian auxiliaries (www.newtimes.ru, February 25, 2008).
Russian oppression turned the Abkhaz nation into a tiny minority in their own land. The present Abkhaz elite that rules by suppressing the majority of the populace consisting of Armenians and Georgians, knows the history of their tribe and remembers Russia’s guilt, but the bureaucrats in Moscow seem to be ignorant, remembering only Soviet-edited history books. Today, Abkhazia is an impoverished land, the Soviet-built infrastructure in its capital Sukhumi remains in poor condition, the water polluted and the hotels empty. Abkhazia needs massive investment for basic restoration. Pre-war Abkhazia had 550,000 inhabitants in 1990, half of them ethnic Georgians, with the Abkhaz – 17 percent. The population has now declined to between 140,000 to 150,000, as a result of ethnic cleansing of the majority of Georgians and the emigration of others from the poverty-stricken region (EDM, June 26, 2008).
The Abkhaz leaders are ready to take Russian money, but do not want to see an inflow of foreign workers as residents that might dilute their nation out of existence. The infrastructural collapse in Abkhazia is a serious problem facing the Russian military as it struggles to establish a viable base.
The Russian forces in Abkhazia have been designated as “the 7th military base.” The backbone of the garrison is the 131st separate motorized rifle brigade from Maikop – the capital of the Adigey republic. In 2009, the brigade’s tank battalion was rearmed with 41 newly-built T-90 tanks, apparently outfitted with French company Thales night-vision equipment to be on a par with Georgian Israeli-modernized T-72SIM1 tanks. The 131st brigade is reinforced with heavy guns, multiple missile launchers, Tochka-U ballistic missiles, antiaircraft weapons and has some 150 armored personnel carriers (APC’s). A regiment (division) of S-300PS antiaircraft missiles has been moved to Abkhazia. Attack and transport helicopters are stationed in the old Soviet airbase Bombora, near Gudauta, together with the 7th military base headquarters. In 2009, troops were reinforced by some 1,500 Federal Security Service (FSB) Border Guards, based directly on the ceasefire line that Russia and Abkhazia claim to be the new border. A Russian naval base is being established in the coastal town of Ochamchira near the ceasefire line with Georgia. Ochamchira is a shallow water port and unable to host major Black Sea Fleet combatants permanently. Ochamchira will be the base of up to 10 smaller navy and FSB Border Guards warships. In 2009, the Russian navy began work to deepen the Ochamchira port and build land infrastructure.
The 131st brigade troops are partly near the ceasefire line, and in Bombora base. The rundown infrastructure of Abkhazia hampers the permanent deployment of sizable heavily armed forward forces. At present, Russian soldiers still largely live in tents and experience constant serious logistical problems in Abkhazia. Bad roads and lines of commutation make it a logistical nightmare to extract any forces out of Abkhazia. The 131st brigade personnel rotate on a six monthly basis in Abkhazia and then return to their old Maikop base where conditions are more habitable. But the brigade’s heavy weapons are in Abkhazia and this makes effective combat training impossible (Mikhail Barabanov, Anton Lavrov, Viacheslav Tseluiko, Tanki augusta: (The Tanks of August) Sbornik statei Moscow: Tsentr Analiza Strategii i tekhnologii Center for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST), 2009, 144 pp., PDF from http://www.cast.ru/comments/.
The Russian strategy is for the forward deployed troops to engage the Georgians in any crisis, while massive reinforcements arrive and overrun the enemy. Abkhazian and South Ossetian formations may be used as auxiliaries. This renders the Russian positions potentially vulnerable. The Georgians are free to relocate forces from the West (facing Abkhazia) to the East to face South Ossetia, while Russian forward positioned troops with their weapons are bogged down in each enclave. The precarious situation may partially explain Russian paranoia – the constant accusations of “Georgians preparing a new aggression” (Kommersant, December 25, 2009). It would seem prudent from the point of view of Russian military and political planners not to sit and wait for the opposition to choose a time and weather of their convenience to possibly attack, but to take the initiative, mobilize air, land and sea forces in advance at a time of their choice. Russian forces could break out of the seclusion of their present enclaves to dominate again the entire former Soviet South Caucasus, also reducing the reliance on Abkhazian and Ossetian whims.
Source: http://www.jamestown.org/programs/edm/
Well, Andrew, any rational and informed person knows why Russia props up “separatist republics”. On the one hand, they are meant to destabilize Russia’s “near abroad” and on the other hand they serve as black holes for organized crime.
Here’s a pretty good documentary on Transnistria, but it only barely scratches below the surface, for example it doesn’t expand enough on the ethnic cleansing that the separatist regime has been committing against the local majority population, or the fact that most of the Transnistrian “leadership” only moved there in the late 80s and 90s.
Check out this hagiography:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Smirnov
Ah, Wikipedia.
Yeah, well, the problem with Transnistria, and the reason why it’s still able to function, is that it’s propped up not only by Russia, but also by Ukraine, and shamefully enough, the EU and the US have not done anything about American and European companies doing business with the separatists. Most of the leaders of the criminal gang who run Transnistria can travel freely through Europe, and Smirnov is treated as a de facto head of state by Russia and Ukraine.
Excuse me, Adolph, but didn’t you tell me a couple of weeks ago that you support the return of Transdniestria, stolen from Ukraine by Stalin, back to Ukraine. What has changed in these 2 weeks?
Your memory is playing tricks on you Artie, lay off the vodka. I said that Ukraine would be entitled to Transnistria if they gave Northern Bucovina and Southern Bassarabia back, otherwise, if we stick to Soviet boundaries, Transnistria is legally a part of Moldova. But it has to be said that Transnistria has always had a Romanian majority (and still does, despite Russian/Ukrainian ethnic cleansing) and prior to the first Russian occupation in 1792 had virtually no Slavs.
But anyway, I’m not sure how Transnistria’s history refutes in any way the fact that it is currently under Russian occupation and a black hole for organized crime.
Robert wrote:
[Please enlighten me regarding the interaction between the US troops in Iraq and the Iraqi oil.]
Gladly. But tell me: which country do you live in? Not only every intelligent American knows that both Iraq wars were about oil, so do educated people all over the World.
So, for your education, here is what the most important and intelligent American (ex-)leader says:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2461214.ece
Alan Greenspan claims Iraq war was really for oil
AMERICA’s elder statesman of finance, Alan Greenspan, has shaken the White House by declaring that the prime motive for the war in Iraq was oil.
In his long-awaited memoir, to be published tomorrow, Greenspan, a Republican whose 18-year tenure as head of the US Federal Reserve was widely admired, will also deliver a stinging critique of President George W Bush’s economic policies.
However, it is his view on the motive for the 2003 Iraq invasion that is likely to provoke the most controversy. “I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil,” he says.
Greenspan is no authority on foreign affairs; it’s like using Henry Kissinger comments on finance to claim that certain financial moves were correct or incorrect. So, Greenspan’s view on the Iraq war is irrelevant
In addition, a lot of people not only did not admire Greenspan’s stewardship of the Fed but openly criticized him for creating a number of bubbles. Many today’s problems are directly attributable to him.
@Gladly. But
“Gladly. But I won’t.”
OK, so let me repeat my question for you, becuase you actually forgot to write an answer:
Please enlighten me regarding the interaction between the US troops in Iraq and the Iraqi oil.
Do they even have any unit for whatever they do with this oil there (I don’t know what, you tell me), like for example Kadyrov has the Oil Regiment (Neftepolk, formerly headed by now Interpol-wanted Adam Delimkhanov)? I wonder, explain.
Robert,
No, the US occupation troops in Iraq are not involved in oil extraction, afaik. What in my original post gave you the idea that they are?
Read what I said:
“USA will leave Iraq when the Iraqi oil is depleted.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2461214.ece
Alan Greenspan claims Iraq war was really for oil
AMERICA’s elder statesman of finance, Alan Greenspan, has shaken the White House by declaring that the prime motive for the war in Iraq was oil.
It is his view on the motive for the 2003 Iraq invasion that is likely to provoke the most controversy. “I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil,” he says.
@No, the US occupation troops in Iraq are not involved in oil extraction, afaik.
OK. So what are they doing there with this oil?
And also what are they doing with this oil that the Russian firms there don’t? (I guess the Russians will “leave Iraq when the Iraqi oil is depleted” alright, but the US forces will leave sooner than this.)
@prime motive for the war in Iraq was oil. … what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil
I see. It was about oil, because it Greenspan says it was about oil, and the proof for this is the “fact” that “everyone” knows that the motive was oil, because obviously it was about oil. Sounds good. I’m convinced! Oil.
Robert wrote:
[@No, the US occupation troops in Iraq are not involved in oil extraction, afaik.
OK. So what are they doing there with this oil?]
I have no idea what you are talking about. US soldiers don’t physically handle or extract oil. US soldiers are in Iraq to guard various cities and facilities and to control Iraq.
I keep on pointing out to you that soldiers don’t extract oil, oil is extracted by civilians, but you keep on insisting that they are. You are a very stupid man with a non-existent reading comprehension.
[I see. It was about oil, because it Greenspan says it was about oil. Sounds good. I’m convinced!]
Are you saying that it was NOT about oil, because you, Robert, say it was not about oil? Sounds good. I’m convinced!
The knowledge that both wars in Iraq have been about oil, is shared by the vast majority of Americans, including the most respected Republican leader, Alan Greenspan.
It all boils down whom the reader is going to believe:
Alan Greenspan, a man who has been in the heart of the US leadership for about 20 years, who was the eyewitness of what lead to the Bush’s cabinet’s decision to invade Iraq in 2003, and who has an IQ of about 200.
or
You, a man of IQ of below 70, who is not even an American, who knows nothing about America, and who spends his entire life reading and posting Islamic extremist propaganda.
Whom are we to believe?
@US soldiers are in Iraq to guard various cities and facilities and to control Iraq.
Wrong. They there are there to guard just their own facalities (and to train and help the Iraqis), mostly the military bases, located outside cities. Which they will soon leave anyway (most by August of this year, relocated to Afghanistan, and the rest will be gone by the end of 2011 too).
@I keep on pointing out to you that soldiers don’t extract oil, oil is extracted by civilians, but you keep on insisting that they are.
No. I keep insisting you should explain what possessed you wrote the following:
“USA will leave Iraq when the Iraqi oil is depleted.”
Btw, you are still retarded.
@Which country are you from, and which country do you call your home today?
My personal life is completely not your business. Maybe instead go and try to stalk some girls or something.
Send my greetings to your Nashi ASSociates.
Well said Robert,
@ Maybe instead go and try to stalk some girls or something
Well, Arthur likes little boys, just like his hero Putin.
Robert wrote:
[No. I keep insisting you should explain what possessed you wrote the following:
“USA will leave Iraq when the Iraqi oil is depleted.”]
No, this is the first time you have succeded in formulating this simple question. Before that, you kept on asking me garbage about US soldiers extracting oil.
So, here is a simple answer:
If and when USA leaved Iraq, Iraq
Now Arthur, you really expect us to think you are anything other than a moron when you write garbage like:
“If and when USA leaved Iraq, Iraq”
Not that the US will be withdrawing from Iraq very very soon (and long before the oil runs out…)
Unlike Russia which continues to occupy Chechnya, Abkhazia, Transdenistr, South Ossetia, Koenigsburg etc, etc, etc.
Robert wrote:
[No. I keep insisting you should explain what possessed you wrote the following:
“USA will leave Iraq when the Iraqi oil is depleted.”]
No, this is the first time you have succeeded in formulating this simple question. Before that, you kept on asking me garbage about US soldiers extracting oil.
So, here is a simple answer:
If and when USA leaved Iraq, Iraq will soon be in the hands of people who hate USA and UK. They will again kick out US and British oil companies. Thus, as long as there is oil and profit from oil, USA will remain in Iraq in order to guard the interests of the US and British oil companies.
But when there is no longer any oil left in Iraq, there will be little compelling reason for USA to stay in Iraq, so USA will soon leave.
This is the primary logic. Of course, there exist other factors. For example, by destroying law and order in Iraq, USA has made Iraq a magnet for Islamic extremism. Thus, by leaving Iraq, USA will effectively hand Iraq over to Islamic terrorists, just as by leaving Afghanistan and later Chechnya in the 1990s, the Russians handed them over tot terrorists.
But oil considerations are older, as even the first Iraq war was fought by Bush Sr. over the oil: defending oil-rich Saudi Arabia and liberating oil-rich Kuwait from Saddam.
Now Arthur, would that “law and order” in Iraq you were mentioning be the reign of terror that was Saddam Hussein’s government?
The one that tried to exterminate the Kurds using gas, and tried to exterminate the Shia in the south by mass executions, that tried to wipe out the marsh Arabs by destroying the wetlands in which they lived.
How Russian of you to describe that as “law and order”.
Robert, aren’t you proud to share the same political views and the same IQ with Andrew?
I bet his racist hatred for Arabs and Abkahzians is especially endearing to you. :-)
What racist hatred for Arabs?
What racist hatred for Abkhazians?
I do hate their (well documented) war crimes.
However considering you are a supporter of war criminals, and war crimes such as ethnic cleansing and genocide, I dont expect you to understand the difference.
You are lying again Arthuretta, just a typical Russophile is what you are.
@I bet his racist hatred for Arabs and Abkahzians is especially endearing to you. :-)
…said the guy who wrote this a few days ago, when for some reason he thought that I’m an Arab:
“And please go back to your Saudi Arabia and beat up some women for showing too much face in public.”
Artie, you’re so adorable.
@Thus, as long as there is oil and profit from oil, USA will remain in Iraq in order to guard the interests of the US and British oil companies.
And not the Russian oil companies? So who’s “guarding their interestes” in Iraq, is it some stealth Russian Army garrison? Or maybe, are the Russians there actually not for oil and profit for oil? I don’t know, elaborate.
@But when there is no longer any oil left in Iraq, there will be little compelling reason for USA to stay in Iraq, so USA will soon leave.
So, now you claim there won’t be any oil left in Iraq by the end of the next year, when the total withdrawal will be completed. Am I getting this right?
@For example, by destroying law and order in Iraq, USA has made Iraq a magnet for Islamic extremism. Thus, by leaving Iraq, USA will effectively hand Iraq over to Islamic terrorists, just as by leaving Afghanistan and later Chechnya in the 1990s, the Russians handed them over tot terrorists.
So, are you now saying that “for example” the Russian invasions “destroyed law and order” in Afghanistan and later Chechnya? You surprised me again, I excepted you to rather say something about a “sacred internationalist duty”, or “restoring constitutional order”.
I guess you’re not very sober today, again?
Btw, Kadyrov’s Oil Regiment is actively involved in the illegal smuggling of raw oil (Grozny refinery, once the largest in whole region, was completely destroyed in the war) to Russia.
One of his money-raising-on-the-side entrprises, like stealing from federal budget (“Chechen black hole”), and extorting compatriots in Chechnya and elsewhere (“Kadyrov Fund”).
Some snippets of this business of his:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4091635.stm (few years before he was given the full power in Chechnya, his star was just rising when spotlight turned on him after Mysterious Strangers killed his father)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jun/13/worlddispatch.russia (elimination of competition soon to be completed – both Baysarov and Yamadayev were later hunted down and killed in the streets of downtown Moscow)
RV wrote:
[It’s the first time since George III that I hear about the U.S. being an illegal state.]
You haven’t heard that America used to belong to Native Americans, who still resent the theft of their land and the extermination and deaths of most of their ancestors?
Well, I guess it was illegal for me to have been born in the United States. What do you suggest I should do, kill myself? I bet that would be your recommendation
Don’t worry, RV: there are so few Native Americans left that it doesn’t matter what these survivors feel.
And given that this blog is devoted to detailing how Russia is a colonialist state, what should average Russians do, kill themselves? I bet that would be your recommendation.
@Don’t worry, RV: there are so few Native Americans
Don’t worry, Arthur: there are so many Native Americans in the US now, there were never so many since the United States was proclaimed.
What a demagogue. When the United States was proclaimed, the total white US population was 2.5 million. That’s 120 times less than the US population today, less than 0.8% of today’s population.
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/004772.html
Back in July 1776, there were about 2.5 million people living in the colonies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history
Genocides in history
United States of America
Authors such as the Holocaust expert David Cesarani have argued that the government and policies of the United States of America against certain indigenous peoples constituted genocide. Cesarani states that “in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust”.[24] He quotes David E. Stannard, author of American Holocaust,[25] who speaks of the “genocidal and racist horrors against the indigenous peoples that have been and are being perpetrated by many nations in the Western Hemisphere, including the United States …”[26] Michno estimates 21,586 dead, wounded, and captured civilians and soldiers for the period of 1850–1890 alone.[27]
In God, Greed, and Genocide: The Holocaust Through the Centuries, Grenke quotes Chalk and Jonassohn with regards to the Cherokee Trail of Tears that “an act like the Cherokee deportation would almost certainly be considered an act of genocide today”.[28] The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the Trail of Tears. About 17,000 Cherokees — along with approximately 2,000 black slaves owned by Cherokees — were removed from their homes.[29] The number of people who died as a result of the Trail of Tears has been variously estimated. American doctor and missionary Elizur Butler, who made the journey with one party, estimated 4,000 deaths.[30]
A number of historians, though not viewing the history of European colonization as one continuous long act of genocide, do cite specific wars and campaigns which were arguably genocidal in intent and effect. Usually included among these are the Pequot War (1637) and campaigns waged against tribes in California starting in the 1850s.[37]
While some California tribes were settled on reservations, others were hunted down and massacred by 19th century American settlers. It is estimated that some 4,500 Native Californians suffered violent deaths between 1849 and 1870.[26][27]
The Pequotyo War was an armed conflict in 1634-1638 between an alliance of Massachusetts Bay and Plymouth colonies with Native American allies (the Narragansett and Mohegan tribes) against the Pequot tribe. The result was the elimination of the Pequot as a viable polity in what is present-day Southern New England. Most of the Pequot people, warriors or otherwise, were killed by the colonists and their allies, or captured and sold into slavery in Bermuda.
@What a demagogue. When the United States was proclaimed, the total white US population was 2.5 million.
What a demagogue. When the United States was proclaimed, the total white US population was 2.5 million. Since then, many millions of white immigrants arrived from all over the world (including from Russia).
Anyway, now there are MANY more Native Americans in the US. More then EVER since the US was proclaimed. Is this “few”? Well, the Abkhaz popuation of Abkhazia used to be far greater than it is now. How many Circassians now live in their former lands? How many Japanese live in the former Norhern Territories of Japan, now known as Kurile Islands?
@http://en.wikipedia.org
I see your Wiki-Fu is still strong, Master Arthur. Keep practicing your copy/paste abilities and surely one day you shall overcome any foe of yours!
Btw, when I last checked the Japanese population of Kuriles was exactly zero.
Which I guess is quite “the few left”.
Surely somewhat down from from the 17,000 still in 1945 (when thousands were killed and the rest expelled), and also 16,000 times less than the 16,000 non-Japanese who are living there today.
At the same time, the number of [any major tribe] is nowadays more than zero still living in what is now the United States, so maybe you’ll reconsider your definition of “few left”.
If you still don’t get it: How many Native Americans live in forced exile in Russia, and how big is the Circassian diaspora in the US in comparison?
Americans made many movies about their past mistreatment of the native population. How many films Russia made? I don’t know, maybe an epic like Dances With Wolves, but about the hundreds of the Imperial Army deserters to had defected to the Caucasians? Maybe something like Soldier Blue, with a fictionalized account of one of many village massacres to make it asshocking as possible? Or just anything at all?
Maybe at least all this (Russian genocides) is prominently described in the Russian history books? You know, described as bad things?
No?
So maybe you just sit and shut up.
[Anyway, now there are MANY more Native Americans in the US.]
Really? Please remind me where you got your figures for what the Native American population was in 1776. Come to think, what IS this figure? When and how was the pre-1776 census of Native Americans taken?
Anyway, there are MANY more Circassians/Adygheans in Russia than there were in 1890. So, does it mean that they have never been persecuted?
Really. This figure was extremally low. The population was only slowly recovering from being completely devastated by at first Spanish and then Dutch, English and French-contracted diseases, and some of them were in fact completely wiped out, including the advanced culture of “mount builders” which actually had cities but then suddenly ceased to exist. The numbers were always much, much lower than in the large civilizations down south anyway (where tens of millions lived only in the Aztec empire). Maybe a few million tops, and I mean before the diseases. Most of this happened even long before Mayflower, but hey why don’t you blame the “Great Satan” also for Black Death in medieval Europe?
@Anyway, there are MANY more Circassians/Adygheans in Russia than there were in 1890
Short answer is NO, but anyway how about 1776. And you can also count “the independent state” of Abkhazia (and just check out their parliament’s resolution – http://abkhazapsua.com/resolution4.html ), it doesn’t matter. In just few years of the XIXth century Russia either killed or deported to Turkey about 9 out of every 10 of them. Today most of them still live in Turkey, and only some 100,000 live in Georgia (including Abkhazia), and yes, only a few thousand live in Russia.
And now just shut up already.
@mount
Mound.
[Really. This figure was extremally low.]
So, you have no numbers to support your claim?
Go and read some books.
So, you have no evidence. You have lied once again. How embarassing for you.
And I did do a lot of reading. And according to my reading, the Native American population was quite large in 1776, especially in the West, because the English/Americans hadn’t reached there yet and thus hadn’t had the chance to kill the Natives off and to steal their land. That came later, in the 19th century.
I wrote:
[Don’t worry, RV: there are so few Native Americans left that it doesn’t matter what these survivors feel.]
Robert wrote:
[The population was only slowly recovering from being completely devastated by at first Spanish and then Dutch, English and French-contracted diseases]
Yes. That’s why even today there are so few Native Americans left. A tiny fraction of the total population here in USA.
[Since then, many millions of white immigrants arrived from all over the world (including from Russia).]
Yes, there are many times more Russian-Americans, Polish-Americans, Irish-Americans and all other kinds of hyphenated-Americans than Native Americans.
So, why did you first try to contradict this obvious fact?
@Yes. That’s why even today there are so few Native Americans left. A tiny fraction of the total population here in USA.
Here we go again,
There are so many Native Americans in the US now, there were never so many since the United States was proclaimed.
And for some reason, millions of new Native Americans do not immigrate from the overseas.
But millions of Mexicans do, and they’re mostly mixed race, or mestizo. Some of them fully native though, and also many such from Central America.
And I’m really sorry that the government of United States did not magically restore the people who have died there even before there was the United States. Maybe them Great Satans should try and breed millions more of them Injuns in some special institutions, clone them or whatever, so you might hopefully shut up at last already.
@And given that this blog is devoted to detailing how Russia is a colonialist state, what should average Russians do, kill themselves?
No, but killing their so-called leaders might be a good start (maybe, it’s Russia after all – in 1917 it went then quite downhill, as another, even worse empire soon replacted the old one).
Robert continued to lie about Circassians/Adygheans:
[Today only a few thousand live in Russia. ]
Come on, Robert, do you really think that I will not check your latest lie?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyghe_people
Adyghe people
The Adyghe or Adygs are a people of the northwest Caucasus region, principally inhabiting Adygeya (24.2%) (now a constituent republic of the Russian Federation) and Karachay-Cherkessia (11.3%) (where they are named as “Cherkes”). Shapsug National District, an autonomous district founded for Shapsigh (or Shapsugh) tribe living on the Black Sea coast was abolished in 1943. Kabardin of Kabardino-Balkaria (55.3%) (along with Besleney tribe) who speak the Kabardian language are often conceived as the eastern branch of Adyghe. While Adyghe is the name this people apply to themselves, in the West they are often known as the Circassians, a term which can also apply to a broader group of peoples in the North Caucasus. Their language is also referred to as Adyghe or Adygeyan.
Adygeya Population 447,109 inhabitants
Karachay-Cherkessia Population 439,470 inhabitants
Kabardino-Balkaria Population 901,494 inhabitants
…………………………
“Only a few thousand”, eh? What a liar.
I was talking about the Abkhazians, you idiot. I even gave you a link to the resolution of the Abkhaz parliament.
Also go and pull your the buttons Ctrl, C, and V up your ass, right now.
Why were you talking about Abkhazians when I asked you about Adygeans?
As far as Abkhazians go, just ask average Abkhazians whom they blame for their near-disappearance – Russians or Georgians.
OK.
Let’s see.
http://abkhazapsua.com/resolution4.html
You know, I posted this link once already. (And I even wrote “just check out”.)
And seriously, why 1890? It was the time when the killings and deportations has been long over. For many years.
Anyway, there are many more times Native Americans in the US now than in 1890. And no, there’s no such thing as their huge diasporas around the world (there are some in Canada).
In fact, in the US there is now probably more of them than even before the initial contact.
And by “initial contact” I mean Columbus, and by “Columbus” I mean the MASSIVE deaths from diseases, everywhere across America, yet not everywhere their population recovered such as in the United States.
The mass deaths of Caucasians were NOT from the epidemics of the entirely new diseases. And they left their homedlands en masse NOT to escape any diseases, neither. There were deaths from disease, yes, but only from the genocidal policies, such as the epidemics among the deportees (you may recall how many Jews died mostly out of typhus in the ghettos and camps of WWII, and this is exactly this kind of disease deaths).
And no, you won’t read about this in the Russian history textbooks. There are of course no state memorials for the victims, neither.
Robert wrote:
[There are so many Native Americans in the US now, there were never so many since the United States was proclaimed. ]
1. Sorry, but so far you haven’t given any numbers to prove your flight of fancy; so this remains a fabrication.
2. Why 1776 and not, say, 1620, the time when the English first landed in America?
How does the number of Native Americans today compare with that in 1620?
And keep in mind that the World population has probably grown by at least a factor of 20 since 1620. Has the number of Native Americans kept up?
How about territory? How does the land area, which belonged to Native Americans in 1620 – the entire continent – compare with the land that belongs to them today?
Who have lost more land compared with 1620 or 1776: Abkhazians or Native Americans?
Modern Russians are doing their best to make the entire Abkhazia to belong to Abkahzians again, so that they can prosper and multiply in their own land.
How much is USA doing to make the entire North America to belong to Native Americans again?
@2. Why 1776 and not, say, 1620, the time when the English first landed in America?
Sure, why not? And it doesn’t even matter there was no United States for almost 200 years. (I guess I’m free to blame Russia for the things that happened anywhere in today’s Russia even before Kiev Rus was first estabilished.)
What does matter is that the first and maybe the biggest wave of diseases was from the early Spanish expeditions. Why don’t you blame the Spanish Empire instead?
Or maybe just go and accuse all of these bacterias and viruses of an evil US conspiracy (Tiny Satan!). Maybe they were all in the United States Army, anyway. Maybe the folks at the American Fur Company also invented a time machine and posed as Coronado. Who knows?
When in doubt, blame the USA.
@Who have lost more land compared with 1620 or 1776: Abkhazians or Native Americans?
Didn’t know Abkhazia is such a huge place. How about Siberia and the Siberian natives. You know, all Native Americans came to America from Siberia, they’re basically the same people. Correct me if I’m worng, but I think the entire Siberia once belonged to Siberians?
@Modern Russians are doing their best to make the entire Abkhazia to belong to Abkahzians again, so that they can prosper and multiply in their own land.
Hooray for the ethnic cleansing and oppression of majority.
@How much is USA doing to make the entire North America to belong to Native Americans again?
Just when will Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Cuba, and everyone else. You complete idiot.
Or maybe when the mighty and human rights-loving Russian Army secures “the entire continent” for this tiny majority, “so that they can prosper and multiply in their own land”. I prospose to gas the rest and burn them in the crematorias.
In the meantime keep just Ghost dancing, Great Chief Arthur.
Tiny minority, of course.
hey, you boys may start with liberating Nicaragua once you’re there with your invincible navy. There are so many whities and negroes and mestizos there, they need to be put in place, and by place I mean either Turkey or Kazakhstan (as always).
(Funny thing, so many of full-blood Indians there fought for the US-supported Contras in the civil war.)
Robert wrote:
[And seriously, why 1890?]
Robert wrote:
[Sure, why not? ]
Robert wrote:
[And seriously, why 1890?]
Sure, why not?
Now Arthuretta, considering that both Georgians and Abkhazians have lived in Abkhazia for sover two thousand years, see the description of Strabo where Dioscuras (Sukhumi) is described as a Svanetian populated city, and the fact that pretty much all the architectural monuments of Abkhazia, dating from the bronze age to present were built by Georgians, including the 1st and 5th century Churches that dot the area……
In fact pretty much every visitor to the region notes that it was a multicultural province with the largest ethnic group being Georgians, followed by Apsu, for around the last 2000 years.
Well, as HRW and Memorial have both said, the Apsu and their RuSSian masters are attempting to eradicate all record of the Georgian presence in the province.
Then there are the census from the late 1800’s which show that the Georgians outnumbered the Apsu even at this time, in contrast to the separatist fairy tales of Georgian “colonisation” in the 1930’s.
Robert wrote:
[Anyway, there are many more times Native Americans in the US now than in 1890. And no, there’s no such thing as their huge diasporas around the world (there are some in Canada).]
Of course not. That’s why the English/”American” occupation of North America has been rougher on Native Americans than Russian/Georgian occupation has been on Abkazians: the Native Americans died, while Abkahzians emigrated. I will take emigration over death any day.
Arthur,
I’m really sorry. You are retarded. I mean, literally. I mean I’m sorry for your family and coworkers (if you have any), not for you.
Now go back to Russia. Also literally.
Robert,
You are a liar, a bully and a moron. And please go back to your Saudi Arabia and beat up some women for showing too much face in public.
Actually that sounds more like and Apsu or Russian thing to do Arthur.
Russians are well know for beating women, and the Apsu even more so.
In fact the Apsu are so misogynistic that they don’t even allow women to attend banquets with the men.
Guess thats why you love them so much….
Oh, an yes, Cuba. The current number of native population of the island stands currently at, hm, zero? I think it may be somewhat smaller percentage than this in the US (and on par on the figures of the Japanese in Kuriles). Everywhere you see, only niggas, mullatos, some chinks, and of course the damned whitey like this one Raul Castro. Yes, I hear you Arthur, the most self-hating white man in America (may I suggest a suicide?), that’s totally unacceptable.
And it’s also the fault of the United States. That’s obvious, everything is.
Just the fate of Siberian peoples, that is the Native Americans in the old land who did not cross the Bering:
A fast-dying language in remote central Siberia shares a mother tongue with dozens of Native American languages spoken thousands of miles away, new research confirms.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/03/080326-language-link.html
The Yeniseic family includes the extinct languages Yugh, Kott, Assan, Arin, and Pumpokol. Ket is the only Yeniseic language spoken today. Less than 200 speakers remain and most are over 50, according to Vajda. (…) The last Eyak speaker died in January [of 2008].
Now, shut up. Really.
No, Robert, I am not the most self-hating white man in America. I am very aware that my own prosperity is based to some degree on the suffering of Native Americans and Africans, just as normal Germans are very aware of the horrible crime that their predecessors have committed towards European Jews. But nobody here in USA or in Germany is going to kill himself over the past history. But normal Germans and Americans do not act with “holier than thou” righteousness in accusing Russia of various colonialist misdeeds in the past either.
What is important is to prevent racial and ethnic hatred and hate speech like this:
Robert wrote:
[Everywhere you see, only niggas, mullatos, some chinks]
Given how your own group – Muslims – suffer from stereotypes and prejudice, you should really lighten up on racial slurs towards other minorities.
@I am very aware that my own prosperity is based to some degree on the suffering of Native Americans and Africans, just as normal Germans are very aware of the horrible crime that their predecessors have committed towards European Jews.
1. I’ve been talking about Cuba. Are you now talking about prosperity in Cuba? There’s no prosperity in Cuba. You may compare their living standards to these of the Cuban refugees in the United States (those who managed to escape the island of the “workers’ paradise”).
2.Do you want all the “illegal immigrant”/”occupier” Africans to go back to Africa, too? (They tried this once with this Liberia project, didn’t work exactly well.)
3. The prosperity of Germany is not effect “of the horrible crime that their predecessors have committed towards European Jews”. It is the effect of the European Recovery Program, a massive program the US aid for the free Europe, including the defeated West Germany (and as I told you to compare Miami and Cuba 2010, you might compare West and East Germany – or South Korea and North Korea).
@But normal Germans and Americans do not act with “holier than thou” righteousness in accusing Russia of various colonialist misdeeds in the past either.
That’s not even about past. That’s about today.
@Given how your own group – Muslims
And yet I’m an atheist, Sherlock.
(And if I was religious I’d be probably a Buddhist of some kind.)
@racial slurs towards other minorities.
How on Earth are the blacks and mullatos a “minority” on Cuba, and the Asians globally? But they are ruled by a bunch of commie minority whitey, anyaway (the last Cuban leader of color was Batista). And you should really lighten up on your idea to give power in America to a minority.
And about how Cuba has been ruined by the Soviet stooges – traitors of the democratic revolution, I suggest you see this movie:
Robert wrote:
[What does matter is that the first and maybe the biggest wave of diseases was from the early Spanish expeditions. Why don’t you blame the Spanish Empire instead?]
I do blame the Spanish and English and French and Portuguese and Dutch for causing the demise of Native Americans, for stealing their lands, and for “importing” and using African slaves to toil the soil in the Americas after the Natives died out.
That’s why I find it to be utter hypocrisy when these NATO nations like USA, Canada, EU and Turkey criticise the way Russia handled its own colonies in the 18th and 19th century.
And how Russians handle them today.
And far from ensuring “Abkhazian lands remain Abkhazian”, the Russian puppet Bagapsh has just passed a law allowing Russians to buy land and property in Abkhazia.
Even the Apsu separatists do not have the right to own land.
Hmmmmmm
@Even the Apsu separatists do not have the right to own land.
That’s not “their own land” anymore, becuase they’re just a minority. Just like the case of Serbs and Kosovo. A majority of the given region can not be ethnic-cleansed in favor of a minority just because of some historical rights.
But in Chechnya and Ingushetia, Russian were always a minority (except one time in 1944 when exactly 100% of the natives were either killed or deported until the 1950s). And even their recent re-colonization efforts failed completely, even the Russians who once lived there did not want to come back (also because they had nothing to return to, everything in Grozny was destroyed). So it’s now not a Russian land in any sense at all, even in the sense of “Algeria is France” (at least there was a sizeable French population there). It’s only an occupied territory with some sham facade. Even Zakayev said that “the decolonization of Chechnya is a fait accompli: Chechnya de jure and de facto absolutely did not become independent, but the very process of decolonization has already been completed.” By the local quisling regime, under Putin’s watch no less.
And where is this terrible criticism from “NATO nations like USA, Canada, EU” (I must admit EU might be my favorite NATO country)? I hardly see any, and most people in the world didn’t even ever heard about any of this. (The lack of any Russian movies in the style of popular Revisionist Westerns certainly helps to keep the awareness at practically non-existant level.)
How about the way Russia handles its colonies in the 21st century? There’s practically no “utter hypocrisy” and “criticism” at all, not from the governments of “NATO nations like USA, Canada, EU” but also from the global public opinion (hardly anyone cared about the most devastating war in Europe since WWII), I know, but I’m asking you, how do you rate the Russian conduct in Chechnya, hm, let’s say in the year 2000 and on the scale of 1-10 (10 being the Marshall Plan and 1 being Auchwitz-Birkenau)?
Or just compare to the US or Canadian policy towards the Native Americans or (any other American ethnic group) in the same year. Like how many cities were destroyed and to what level, how many villages were pillaged, how many thousands of people killed and injured (estimated), how many people have been “disappeared” (and how many of them were later found in how many mass graves, and what kinds of injuries and traces of torture were found on them, and how many are still missing), the conditions in detention camps, general living standards of the surviving population, figures on refugees (like for example how many fled the US to RF, and how many the other way), etc. Plenty of ways to make an unbiased judgement.
Then maybe I’ll tell if do you have any non-“utter hypocrisy” right to criticise the United States and Canada in their treatment of their own ethnic monorities/indigenous peoples.
Also I’dl ike to remind you Abkhazia is still depopulated since the end of the war (and actually even more since then), and the Abkhaz diaspora members did not return to this “their own land”.
Robert,
Don’t you think that Georgian fascists like Gamsakhurdia and Saakashvili have something to do with the fact that the Abkhaz diaspora members did not return to “this their own land”?
Or is it Putin and Medvedev’s fault again? Which country, if nor Russia, is protecting Abkhazia from suffering a holocaust?
@Don’t you think “that Georgian fascists like Gamsakhurdia and Saakashvili”
No, I don’t think “that Georgian fascists like Gamsakhurdia and Saakashvili”.
Anyway, most of Abkhazia is “liberated” since 1993 (and all of it since 2008) so I don’t see any relation between this and the Georgian authorities.
Oh, and Abkhazian separatists and Gamsakhurdia were on the same and one side (against the government of Shevardnadze). Zviadist rebels (I guess “fascists” for you) actually operated out of Abkhazia. His “fascist” Abkhazia politics:
In Abkhazia Gamsakhurdia achieved an uncomfortable compromise with the Abkhaz leadership in 1991 through an election law which gave 28 out of 65 seats in the Abkhaz parliament to Abkhaz and 26 to Georgians, while the remaining thirty-seven per cent of the population received 11 seats. This ‘Lebanon-style’ system created an unsustainable balance which unravelled after Gamsakhurdia was overthrown in a military coup in January 1992.
http://www.c-r.org/our-work/accord/georgia-abkhazia/profiles.php
A Soviet-era dissident, Gamsakhurdia was elected president in May 1991, but fled Georgia seven months later following a coup by informal paramilitary groups, apparently with backing from Moscow. He took up residence in Grozny, from where he launched an abortive comeback attempt in September 1993 at the height of the war in Abkhazia.
http://www.rferl.org/content/Commission_Probing_Circumstances_Of_Gamsakhurdias_Death_To_Question_Shevardnadze/1969184.html
(Chechnya of course also helped the Abkhaz rebels against Shevardnadze.)
In parallel, a civil war erupted among Georgians, turning the center of Tbilisi into a battlefield. Gamsakhurdia was deposed in early 1992 in favor of an unelected Shevardnadze. Gamsakhurdia went into exile but repeatedly tried to return to power. In response, Shevardnadze sent forces into Abkhazia in September 1992 to root out support for his rival, leading to the brutal Georgian-Abkhaz war of the following year. Both Chechen insurgents and the Russian military (soon to be at each other’s throats) gave strong support to the Abkhaz.
http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=19702
You didn’t know about it, did you. You don’t know (or pretend?) about many things.
@Which country, if nor Russia, is protecting Abkhazia from suffering a holocaust?
And by “protecting Abkhazia from suffering a holocaust”, you mean “protecting the opression of the Soviet-era population of the now ghost-land of Abkhazia by the ruling minority (of whom a large part left anyway, too, because the economy is just so bad, so maybe it should be rather: protection of a bunch of corrupt leaders)”. Right?
Related:
In its Soviet heyday Abkhazia was a thriving holiday destination famed for its unspoiled coastline, palm-tree lined boulevards and juicy mandarins. But a bloody war in the early 1990s when it first broke away from Georgia caused an estimated 200,000 ethnic Georgians to flee.
Today, most of the hotels and cafes along Sukhumi’s seafront are abandoned and the place feels like a ghost town after dark. There are only around 200,000 people living in Abkhazia, and the administration is trying to tempt back the diaspora and encourage the people who are left to have bigger families.
http://businessneweurope.eu/story1902/Georgian_rebel_region_of_Abkhazia_elects_Bagapsh_for_2nd_term
“Liberation” of Sukhumi (talking about “a holocaust”, maybe you just check out this video):
@So, you have no evidence. You have lied once again. How embarassing for you.
@And according to my reading
Really. Well… titles, authors, and especially their “evidence” on contrary.
Oh, “you have no evidence. You have lied once again. How embarassing for you. ”
Stop being retarded. Can you?
@especially in the West
West of what? Of the original colonies along the north eastern coast, at the time? Seriously? Holy moly! Well, I was mistaken about Thou, Sir Arthur, you must be some kind of genius.
Anyway,
Estimates regarding the figures before the contact (and thus the mass deaths from diseases):
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1357826/Native-American/273135/North-America-and-Europe-circa-1492
Nowadays it’s 4.5 million in the US, and over 1 million in Canada too.
That’s somewhat more than the ones who stayed in Siberia (now occupied by Russia), of whom only 200 now speak their last surviving language. How much are you concerned to give Siberia back to them, so they would “so that they can prosper and multiply in their own land”? Do not skip, but answer this question.
Robert wrote:
[Estimates regarding the figures before the contact (and thus the mass deaths from diseases):
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1357826/Native-American/273135/North-America-and-Europe-circa-1492
Nowadays it’s 4.5 million in the US, and over 1 million in Canada too.
That’s somewhat more than the ones who stayed in Siberia (now occupied by Russia), of whom only 200 now speak their last surviving language. How much are you concerned to give Siberia back to them, so they would “so that they can prosper and multiply in their own land”? Do not skip, but answer this question.]
Whom are you talking about? “Native Americans who stayed in Siberia? I am not aware of any Native Americans in Siberia?
Or do you mean Chukchis or Yakuts? Surely more than 200 of them “peak their last surviving language”. But i am all for the colonised peoples like Chukchas, Scots, Yakuts, Irish, Native Americans etc switching back to their native tongues.
As far as giving Siberia back to the pre-Yermak natives – I am not a Russian citizen. I am an American citizen who greatly enjoys the benefits of us Americans stealing the land from Native Americans and I personally not prepared to give my home and land back to its rightful owners: the Indians. So, it would be the height of hypocrisy for me to demand that foreigners – Russians – do something that I am not willing to do myself. I know that LR and RV are also American citizens but they worry only about the unfairness in Russia and don’t give a damn about the unfairness in their own country USA. But i am not like them. I am a self-respecting person.
Oh, I forgot to finish the above reply:
However, I am as much in favour of returning Siberia to Native Siberians as I am in favour of returning North America to Native Americans.
How about you, Robert?
LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:
You’d best watch your step, Artie, if you want to go on commenting on this blog. We’ve just deleted three of your comments which egregiously violate our clearly posted guidelines. Keep it up, and you’re out.
Artie Artie, you have some nerve talking about the evils of American and European colonialism, while trying to gloss over the horrors of Russian imperialism. The politically incorrect truth is that no other nation in history has been so bloodthirsty and genocidal as Russia. The Mongols have traditionally been seen as the epitome of barbarism and brutality, but a comparison between the Russians and the Mongols would be deeply unfair to the Mongols. Genghis Khan was a humanitarian compared to any Russian leader at war (including Putin) and in some cases the Mongols did leave a positive and lasting cultural and political legacy (for instance, the Moghuls in India). Can anyone name anything positive that the Russians did in the territories they occupied?
But let’s just restrict ourselves to the last 20 years. Invasion and large-scale ethnic cleansing in Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Transnistria; two wars and genocide in Chechnya; support of terrorist groups (Hamas, Hezbollah) and rogue/totalitarian states (Iran, Saddam’s Iraq, Venezuela, Cuba, Sudan, North Korea, Burma); continual harrassment and bullying of Ukraine, the Baltic States and Poland; invasion of Georgia; state-sanctioned murder of any dissenting journalist; blatant encouragement of murderous racist violence on the streets of Russian cities (where foreigners risk being assaulted and killed in broad daylight, and where the police and judiciary deliberately turn a blind eye). And these are just a few.
Now name any other country (it can be some totalitarian or third-world backwater, it’s up to you) that could come even remotely close to what Russia has done. Even North Korea has been more civilized in international affairs than Russia.
@Genghis Khan was a humanitarian
…but only to those who did not resist.
The Russians made a hystorical epic movie about him recently. Coincidence? They never made any film about Shamil or Kosciuszko (while the Americans did the biopics on Crazy Horse http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2938933760/tt0115969 Geronimo http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3747782400/tt0107003 and so on), heroic resistance fighters against tyranny (Russian tyranny), but they did about the foreigner from a distant land who had enslaved Rus and most of the known world. As a positive character. Okay! Guess it’s some of these cultural differences regarding approaches to history. Anyway, the film looks pretty nifty I guess, I think I’ll see it someday:
Well, the Mongols were ruthless with anyone who put up any sort of resistance, but those who submitted were left to their own devices as long as they coughed up enough money, horses, slaves, or whatever the Mongols wanted. The Mongols didn’t care that much about what language people spoke or what religion they had. Compare this to Russian behavior in occupied territories even nowadays, and Genghis Khan looks downright enlightened and civilized.
If there was an English translation, I’d be curios to see the movie. I wouldn’t be surprised if Russian nationalists admired Genghis Khan, after all, an “Eurasian” empire that dominates the world has always been Russian’s wet dream. Too bad it will be Chinese-speaking if it ever happens.
Actually there is:
http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Mongol/70075474
There are also plans for two sequels, as this one was only about his rise to power.
I respect Sergei Bodrov. His modern-era re-imagining of Prisoner of the Caucasus was a very good film:
[The Mongols have traditionally been seen as the epitome of barbarism and brutality]
I agree. The Mongols got an unfair rap. West Europeans have been much more barbaric than even the Mongols. Recall the Crusades, the Inquisition, the extermination of Native Americans, slavery, World War I, World War II, the Holocaust, colonialist crimes in India, China, Africa, etc etc.
I agree with everything you say. But how about the Russians? How would you rate their record?
@I agree. The Mongols … the extermination of Native Americans
Here we go again.
Dear RED POWER Ranger Arthur,
Why do you keep changing the subject to this issue, no matter what is being discussed, but you won’t answer my specifically asked question:
That’s [over five million] somewhat more than the ones who stayed in Siberia (now occupied by Russia), of whom only 200 [two hundred] now speak their last surviving language. How much are you concerned to give Siberia back to them, “so that they can prosper and multiply in their own land”? Do not skip, but answer this question.
And let me repeat the last fragment again:
Do not skip, but answer this question.
Because if you won’t, I just won’t talk to you ever again. And every time you shed more crocodile tears, I’ll just link you to this thread. So now it’s only your choice.
[Do not skip, but answer this question.]
Well, I have answered your demand, please answer my question:
Which country are you from, and which country do you call your home today?
Do not skip, but answer this question.
Robert wrote:
[1. I’ve been talking about Cuba. ]
And I wasn’t.
[Are you now talking about prosperity in Cuba?]
No. What does Cuba have to do with the fate of Native Americans in USA?
We were talking about the alleged genocides against Native Americans in USA and Circassians in Russia. Then you changed the subject to Abkhazians. Now – to Cubans.
What is not clear about Cuba and most other Caribbean islands? They were happily populated by Native Americans. Then Europeans came, killed a whole bunch and made the rest into slaves. 90% died of disease. Another 9% died of slavery.
After the Native Americans died out, the Europeans didn’t have anybody to slave on their plantations, so that they brought in African slaves.
That’s why Cuba, Haiti and other Caribbean are still very poor. And it was the Spanish and American imperialism that resulted in the anger of average Cubans and their selection of socialism and Fidel Castro.
So, what is your point in bringing up Cuba into our discussion of the fate of Natives? What’s the relevance? That Europeans exterminated all of them? Yes. Glad that you finally see that.
That communism is bad for the freedom of speech? Yes. But that’s not our topic. Our topic is the FATE of NATIVES.
[Are you now talking about prosperity in Cuba? There’s no prosperity in Cuba.]
There is more prosperity in Cuba than in most other near-by nations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita
List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita
86 Cuba 9,700
87 Colombia 9,200
88 Anguilla 8,800
90 Suriname 8,800
91 Peru 8,600
92 Jamaica 8,300
93 Belize 8,200
94 Dominican Republic 8,200
98 Ecuador 7,300
108 El Salvador 6,000
112 Guatemala 5,200
124 Honduras 4,200
129 Guyana 3,900
169 Haiti 1,300
And notice that there is less inequity in Cuba.
[@How much is USA doing to make the entire North America to belong to Native Americans again?
Just when will Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Cuba, and everyone else.]
So, USA, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Cuba, and everyone else are doing much less to help Native Americans than Russia is doing to help Abkhazians? Thanks. A great point.
You keep on providing more and more evidence to my point:
Russia is doing more to restore past colonialist injustices done to Abkhazians than USA, Canada and other countries are doing more to restore past colonialist injustices done to Native Americans.
[You complete idiot.]
You complete genius.
That’s “undo” not “restore”.
Sorry Arthur, but you were right 1st time.
Russia is re instituting colonial oppression of the Abkhaz, and the Chechens, and the Ingush, and the Daghesh, and the Georgians…..
So how do you explain the fact that Russia is supporting ethnic cleansing of one of the native populations of Abkhazia, the Georgians (both Apsu and Georgians have the right to call themselves native), who have lived in Abkhazia for all of recorded history?
Really Arthur, you are a complete hypocrite.
Well actually Castro came to power in a violent coup followed by all the usual socialist murders and thefts that continue to this day.
Since you love wiki so much….
“The Cuban government has been accused of numerous human rights abuses including torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extrajudicial executions (a.k.a. “El Paredón”).[86] The Human Rights Watch alleges that the government “represses nearly all forms of political dissent” and that “Cubans are systematically denied basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, privacy, movement, and due process of law”.[87]
Cuba was the second biggest prison in the world for journalists in 2008, second only to the People’s Republic of China, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ), an international NGO.[88] As a result of computer ownership bans, computer ownership rates are among the world’s lowest.[89] Right to use Internet is granted only to selected people and these selected people are monitored.[89][90] Connecting to the Internet illegally can lead to a five-year prison sentence.
Cuban dissidents face arrests and imprisonment. In the 1990s, Human Rights reported that Cuba’s extensive prison system, one of the largest in Latin America, consists of some 40 maximum-security prisons, 30 minimum-security prisons, and over 200 work camps.[91] According to Human Rights Watch, political prisoners, along with the rest of Cuba’s prison population, are confined to jails with substandard and unhealthy conditions.[91] Other dissident thinkers such as Yoani Sánchez are under tight surveillance.
Citizens cannot leave or return to Cuba without first obtaining official permission, which is often denied.[87]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba#Human_rights
A more detailed look
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba
Arthur, you got it right the first time, restore is the correct term. However, it’s not as if Russia ever stopped its colonialist, often genocidal policies. I remind you once again: Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and large swathes of the so-called Russian Federation itself, where the native populations are faced with a process of cultural and linguistic assimilation.
I wrote:
[the Native American population was quite large in 1776, especially in the West, because the English/Americans hadn’t reached there yet]
[West of what? Of the original colonies along the north eastern coast, at the time?]
When talking about the territory of the United States, the term “the West” refers to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_United_States
The Western United States, commonly referred to as the American West or simply “the West,” traditionally refers to the region comprising the westernmost states of the United States. In the 21st century, the states which include the Rocky Mountains and the Great Basin to the West Coast are generally considered to comprise the American West.
[ Seriously? Holy moly! Well, I was mistaken about Thou, Sir Arthur, you must be some kind of genius.]
Your diatribe is very long, showing your ability to thread many words together. You must be some kind of genius. And yet, these empty exclamations do nothing to prove that there were few Native Americans in the American West in 1776.
Now Arthur, shouldn’t you be off helping Russia “restore” colonial oppression?
Face it Arthur, the US, UK, and most other former imperial powers faced up to and have tried to atone for their past actions.
Russia however, was responsible for the worst colonial genocides of the 19th, 20th, and now 21st centuries.
Now, Andrew, shouldn’t you allow some discussion here to occur without your constant pointless meddling? Does your boss pay you extra if you follow up to EVERY post?
Now Arthur, stop talking about your own sad little life.
Besides, I still find it highly amusing how you admitted Russia was restoring colonial oppression.
I guess thats why you were absent for a couple of days, off being disciplined by your superiors.
Pity they don’t realise you enjoyed it….
What? Are you hallucinating again?
Robert wrote:
[Yes, I hear you Arthur, the most self-hating white man in America]
No, I am not self-hating. My point is not that we, whites, should kill ourselves out of guilt.
My point is that it is disgusting for you russophobes to pretend that 18th and 19th century Russia was more cruel to colonised native peoples than were other European colonial empires like Spanish, British, French, Portuguese etc., or the Turkish Ottoman Empire.
@My point is that it is disgusting for you russophobes to pretend that 18th and 19th century Russia was more cruel to colonised native peoples than were other European colonial empires like Spanish, British, French, Portuguese etc., or the Turkish Ottoman Empire.
Your point is that “you are lynching Negroes” (even if in past tense and long-time no more). Since you love Wikipedia so much: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes
And no, we don’t merely say “that 18th and 19th century Russia was more cruel to colonised native peoples”. Actually, we rather say that 21st century Russia is still cruel to its colonised native peoples. This thing is so much more important, because this is happening right now.
Well, considering most survivors of Russian occupations I have met wish that they had been occupied by a civilised state like Britain….
The simple fact of the matter is that Russia committed more genocides than any other state in history, and continues to do so.
Look at Chechnya, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Transdenistr for example.
Russian sponsored, organised and led (and committed by Russian volunteers) ethnic cleansing and war crimes.
Well, Robert, if you want to discuss the 21st century, let’s discuss the US occupation of Iraq.
BTW, what do you think of the lies that Secretary of State Powell told the United Nations? Wasn’t all of this completely untrue? All of this.
Lying to the entire World in order to destroy a foreign nation on the other end of the Globe. How despicable. And Powell didn’t do this on his own. He was told to lie by the American leaders.
Here is an interesting exchange I found:
https://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/editorial-biden-in-ukraine-georgia/
laika // July 27, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Re: Iraq… LR – you DO realize that the Iraq war was based on a LIE, right?
LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:
You DO realize how many Iraquis were wiped out by the American military, right? Are you asking for Russians to meet the same fate, while you laugh?
Freak.
…………………..
Robert, you DO realize how many Iraquis were wiped out by the American military, right?
And pray tell us who the bloodthirsty freak is in the above exchange.
@Well, Robert, if you want to discuss the 21st century, let’s discuss the US occupation of Iraq.
We already did. I’m still waiting for you to tell me what are they doing with this oil there, the oil that they’re allgedly there for, and do you really think there won’t be any oil in Iraq in 2012 already.
Also, the occupation of Iraq ended in June 2005 (when the full power was given to the first elected government in the history of Mesopotamia). Maybe you knew it, maybe not, now you know for sure.
@BTW, what do you think of the lies that Secretary of State Powell told the United Nations? Wasn’t all of this completely untrue? All of this.
Photophobe, I think I might have a daja vu now.
Yes, Robert, you are right: the occupation of Iraq has successfully ended in 2005. I bet you are happy.
[We already did. I’m still waiting for you to tell me what are they doing with this oil there,]
Who “they”?
[ and do you really think there won’t be any oil in Iraq in 2012 already.]
I am fairly sure that there will be oil in Iraq even in 2013, just as I am fairly sure that there will be US forces in Iraq in 2013.
Why do you ask? Can you see the future?
@Who “they”?
I don’t know, maybe you tell me.
From the context: the US military forces stationed in Iraq (“as long as there is oil there” for them to… well, that’s what I’m curious of), but maybe I just somehow misunderstood you?
So, they, imaginary “US forces in Iraq in 2013” (science-fiction): what are they doing there now with all this oil right now, tonight in 2010?
Can I get an answer to this simple question already?
And then, just what the Russian oil companies doing there in Iraq, doing business with its government, also in 2010, and probably in 2013 too?
I wrote:
[‘@Thus, by leaving Iraq, USA will effectively hand Iraq over to Islamic terrorists, just as by leaving Afghanistan and later Chechnya in the 1990s, the Russians handed them over to terrorists.]
Robert responded:
[So, are you now saying that “for example” the Russian invasions “destroyed law and order” in Afghanistan and later Chechnya? ]
No, what I said is that by withdrawing from Afghanistan and later Chechnya in the 1990s, the Russians handed them over to terrorists.]
You clearly are incapable of normal reasoning and reading comprehension.
Robert continued:
[So, they, imaginary “US forces in Iraq in 2013″ (science-fiction): what are they doing there now with all this oil right now, tonight in 2010?]
What are “imaginary US forces in Iraq in 2013 (science-fiction) doing there now with all this oil right now, tonight in 2010?”
“I have no idea what this insane drivel means. It’s total gibberish from start to finish.
This is like asking “what are these imaginary Russian forces in Abkhazia in 2013 (science-fiction) doing there now with all thse mandarin oranges right now, tonight in 2010?”
[Can I get an answer to this simple question already?]
Sure. My answer is: Your insanity is even greater than your stupidity. You are denser and more stupid than even Andrew.
@You clearly are incapable of normal reasoning and reading comprehension.
Alright. So what the Russian invasions did with the “law and order” in Afghanistan and Chechnya? Because you said the invasion of Iraq had destroyed the “law and order” of Saddam regime in Iraq (the laws of “thou shalt not suffer a Kurd to live” and such, I guess).
The idiots like you will start screaming stupid things like “Abu Ghraib”. I’ll tell you something about Abu Ghraib during the era of “law and order”:
TESTIMONY FROM SURVIVORS: 1984-1989
Torture and Mistreatment in Abu Ghraib Prison
http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/1993/iraq/
Abdallah, a member of the Ba’ath Party whose loyalty became suspect, provided Middle East Watch with still-vivid personal memories from his four years of imprisonment at Abu Ghraib in the 1980’s, where he was held held naked the entire time and frequently tortured.
The second day of his imprisonment, the men were forced to walk between two rows of five guards each, to receive their containers of food. While walking to get the food, they were beaten by the guards with plastic telephone cables. They had to return to their cells the same way, so that a walk to get breakfast resulted in twenty lashes. “It wasn’t that bad going to get the food,” Abdallah said, “but coming back the food was spilled when we were beaten.” The same procedure was used when the men went to the bathroom.
The third day, the torture began. “We were removed from our cells and beaten with plastic pipes. This surprised us, because we were asked no questions. Possibly it was being done to break our morale,” Abdallah speculated. The torture escalated to sixteen sessions daily. The treatment was organized and systematic. Abdallah was held alone in a 3×2-meter room that opened onto a corridor. Sometimes he was not permitted to move inside the cell, even after he was beaten.
“You also had to obey the guards’ orders, such as to stand on one foot. If not, there was more torture. If they told you to sit, and you were found standing, you were beaten.” When he was ordered to sit, he had to face a wall, not the door, with his knees touching the wall but his forehead never resting on the wall. If he changed this position, he would be beaten.
“You were not allowed to go to sleep until they yelled, `Sleep, you bastards.’ This treatment continued day and night. After the beatings, I was forced to march in place. We were not allowed to speak, shout or cough. Coughing meant more torture. If there was a cough, the guards would come and ask who coughed. The person who coughed was supposed to say `I did, master.’ If no one admitted coughing, all of us would be beaten.”
“We were allowed to go to the toilet three times a day, then they reduced the toilet to once a day for only one minute. I went for four years without a shower or a wash,” Abdallah said. He also learned to cope with the deprivation and the hunger that accompanied his detention:
I taught myself to drink a minimum amount of water because there was no place to urinate. They used wooden sticks to beat us and sometimes the sticks would break. I found a piece of a stick, covered with blood, and managed to bring it back to my room. I ate it for three days. A person who is hungry can eat anything. Pieces of our bodies started falling off from the beatings and our skin was so dry that it began to fall off. I ate pieces of my own body.
No one, not Pushkin, not Mahfouz, can describe what happened to us. It is impossible to describe what living this day to day was like. I was totally naked the entire time. Half of the original group [of about thirty men] died. It was a slowtype of continuous physical and psychological torture. Sometimes, it seemed that orders came to kill one of us, and he would be beaten to death.
Sounds just great! So bad this perfect system of “law and order” was destroyed by the Great Satan.
@This is like asking “what are these imaginary Russian forces in Abkhazia in 2013 (science-fiction) doing there now with all thse mandarin oranges right now, tonight in 2010?”
Not “science-fiction”, because they want there will be there pernamently (and they say this openly):
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iA_q3mcvbweZYWMyw31KrW30EvUwD9DU34E01
Maybe you didn’t knowa bout it (it’s possible, you are dumb enough), maybe you thought I don’t know (it’s possible, you are dumb enough). And I never said anything about any “mandarin oranges”, like you kept babbling about how the US forces are in Iraq because of “oil”, and won’t leave before there won’t be any left no more. Even as they are leaving for quite a time already, and say they will complete their withdrawal in the year 2011.
And now me repeat my question:
So, they, imaginary “US forces in Iraq in 2013″ (science-fiction): what are they doing there now with all this oil right now, tonight in 2010?
Bonus question: is there much “oil” in Afghanistan, where they will in fact be in 2013 – instead of in Iraq? (NATO withdrawal from Afghanistan will only begin in 2013, when the Afghan forces should be ready to take over according to the current plans.)
Then, tell me about all these positive difference in Afghanistan and Chechnya thanks to the glorious and invincible Red Army, just before their their apparently so-misguided decision to withdraw in order from Afghanistan (circa 1985) and just before they were forced to flee crying from Chechnya (early August 1996)? More “law and order” than before the invasion? What does it mean? Less deaths per year? Less destruction? Less refugees? Less landmines? More democracy? I don’t know, maybe you tell me.
Now you have three questions to respond. So come on Arthur, show me your intelectual superiority of a Russian Ubermensch before I go beat some women in public like the other fellow Saudi Arabs in Albania.
I wrote:
[‘@Thus, by leaving Iraq, USA will effectively hand Iraq over to Islamic terrorists, just as by leaving Afghanistan and later Chechnya in the 1990s, the Russians handed them over to terrorists.]
Robert responded:
[So, are you now saying that “for example” the Russian invasions “destroyed law and order” in Afghanistan and later Chechnya? ]
I patiently explained
[ No, what I said is that by withdrawing from Afghanistan and later Chechnya in the 1990s, the Russians handed them over to terrorists.]
Robert asked again:
[So what the Russian invasions did with the “law and order” in Afghanistan and Chechnya?]
Here we go again. I was not talking about the Russian INVASION. I was talking about the Russian WITHDRAWAL: “by withdrawing from Afghanistan and later Chechnya in the 1990s, the Russians handed them over to terrorists.”
You are the densest person on Earth, Robert.
[So, they, imaginary “US forces in Iraq in 2013″ (science-fiction): what are they doing there now with all this oil right now, tonight in 2010?]
I have no idea what this question means. Please rephrase.
Ah, I see. So, you will simply discuss the effects of US invasions (such as destruction of Saddam Hussein’s “law and order”), but you won’t discuss the effects of the Russian invasions.
@I have no idea what this question means. Please rephrase.
Oh Arthur, it’s still the same old question: What the US forces in Iraq are doing with this “oil” you think they’re out for?
Yes, you already said they have no hand in Iraqi oil business whatsover. So, WHAT is the supposed connection, and why they plan to completele their withdrawal the next year before the oil is depleted, contratry to your claim of “USA will leave Iraq when the Iraqi oil is depleted.”?
Now a bonus question: Is the war in Afghanistan “about oil” too, and is there more of this oil there, because for some reason they are being relocated from Iraq primarily to Afghanistan?
@You are the densest person on Earth, Robert.
And your mom is so fat that Roscosmos meaures her waist in orbital days. Now answer the questions already.
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