EDITORIAL: The World Spurns Russia

EDITORIAL

The World Spurns Russia

Even though Russia’s territory is far more vast than that of the United States,vastly more foreign tourists arrive in the USA each year than come to Russia.  The USA ranks #2 in the world for international arrivals, while Russia does not even make the top 10.  It ranks #14, with less than half the number of visitors received by the supposedly hated USA.

And Russia’s figures are in fact vast exaggerations.  Russia counts as “international” visitors people from places like Belarus and Ukraine and Kazakhstan that were previously part of the same country.  Take away those visits, and almost nobody from the civilized world is daring to set foot in Putin’s Russia.  By contrast, America’s visitors come from the elite nations of the world, from Japan to France.

And things are getting worse.  Much worse.

Companies and Markets reports:

Growth in foreign visitor arrivals to Russia in the three-year period between 2005 and 2008 was weak, estimated at an annual average of just 2.4%. The most recent figures from national data sources for the first half of 2009 show a sharp fall in arrivals, down by over 11% year-on-year (y-o-y) to nearly 9.9mn. Regarding key source markets outside the former Soviet Union, there was negative y-o-y growth in arrivals from Germany, the US, Italy, the UK, China and Poland. Of these countries, the most significant rates of decline were recorded for the number of visitors from Poland (-46% y-o-y), the UK (-24% y-o-y) and the US (-15% y-o-y).

Outbound tourism from Russia, however, is soaring.  It seems Putin’s Russia is becoming just as unpopular with the Russians themselves as it is with foreigners, and they are already thinking about fleeing — just as in Soviet times. How long will it be, then, before Putin must impose the same restrictions on exit visas that were seen in Soviet times?

Then there’s the money.  Because those who visit the USA are far more wealthy than those who visit Russia, the USA earns over $100 billion in tourist-generated revenue each year, by far the most earned by any country on the planet (in fact, nearly twice as much as its nearest competitor). So much for the crazy Russian propaganda meme that the world hates America and is just waiting to embrace Russian leadership!

Meanwhile, Russia earns almost nothing from the third-world tourists who are the only ones crazy enough to visit. As one blogger puts it:  “Russian tourism industry is far from being stable. Revenue from tourism in Russia accounts for about 1% of GDP, whereas in countries with developed tourism industry it is more than 10% on average.”  In other words, Russia earns ten times less than a modern state from tourism revenues.

But if you think all Russia loses as a result is cash income, think again.

Russia also loses political influence, as most clearly seen when every single major nation of the world repudiated Russia’s 2008 annexation of Abkhazia and Ossetia, leaving Russia begging in the most pathetic manner imaginable for even tiny island countries to do so.

Russia is, of course, world famous for xenophobia.  So in fact there may be many Russians who are so benighted and full of hatred that they actually think all this is good news.  They want to purge foreigners from their landscape even though their own government acknowledges that their economy is doomed without foreign investment.

So it’s the same old self-destructive, indeed suicidal behavior from the Russians.  They provoke and alienate the world, then they cry and complain about having so many foreign enemies and so much dire poverty.  No nation, of course, can survive this type of behavior for long.

66 responses to “EDITORIAL: The World Spurns Russia

  1. ” Elite nations of the world Japan to France “???
    You forgot another ” elite ” nation , Germany .
    What makes Germany an elite nation , you might ask , why not that long ago , they themselves , were trying to prove that to the world by murdering millions and millions of
    of people . But that’s O.K. , because they are
    trying to atone for THEIR crimes by putting
    an innocent , sick old man on trial , that isn’t
    even german . What a sorry , sick , spectacle !

  2. Don’t forget the other reason tourism in Russia is down… Russia is home of the most expensive visas in the world. By the time you get done ordering the invitation, then the visa, then registering the visa once you arrive in-country you will have spent in the neighborhood of $400 (USD).

    Upon arrival in Russia the tourist is then subject to the famous ‘dual pricing’ structure that is in place at almost all museums, theaters and other attractions.

    It must be said however that although Russian visas are expensive and a general pain to obtain, the Russian government does issue them if you are willing to jump through all of their hoops.

    The same cannot be said of the U.S., at least as far as some (but not all) Russian citizens are concerned. For Russians, a U.S. visa can be difficult if not impossible to obtain unless the visa applicant can demonstrate an established pattern of returning home.

    W/R/T Russians, the U.S. processes all non-immigrant visas on the assumption that the visa holder will not return to their home country.

    • What is this “dual pricing?”

      • The higher charges for foreigners.

        But of course, when 75 foreigners when among the hostages in Moscow in 2002, the government protested “double standards” – and effectively blocked their release (and promptly just hours after this killed 9 of them, incuding an American, with poison gas).

        About this murder:

        http://apostille.us/news/a_foreigners_nightmare_in_dubrovka.shtml

        Gubareva wondered what had happened to her fiance, a U.S. citizen, and 13-year-old daughter, who like herself was from Kazakhstan. But Putin did not utter a word about the foreign victims of the 56-hour stand-off, which began five years ago this Tuesday when 42 Chechen rebels stormed the theater in southeastern Moscow during a performance of the “Nord Ost” musical.

        The omission would have been insignificant if it were not for the fact that it encapsulates the way that authorities have blithely ignored the foreigners taken hostage in the attack, refusing to assist them in any way or even offer them the small compensation handed out to Russian citizens, Gubareva and others said.

        (…)

        Rebel leader Movsar Barayev told the hostages from the start that the attack was part of the battle over Chechnya and that the rebels had no grudge against foreigners. He promised to release anyone who showed a foreign passport.

        Government negotiators, however, were reluctant to accept the offer to release the foreigners, saying they wanted women and children to be freed first. “Furthermore, we insist that everybody be released, without any distinction between foreigners and Russians,” FSB spokesman Sergei Ignatchenko said Oct. 25, the third day of the crisis, RIA-Novosti reported.

        (…)

        On the last night of the siege, Oct. 25, Barayev ordered the rebels to separate the Russian and foreign hostages into two groups. A total of 75 were counted as foreigners, and since Gubareva’s documents were at the U.S. Embassy, she and her daughter were initially identified as Americans.

        “They gave Sandy a phone so that he could call the American Embassy and get them to send a representative from the embassy the next day,” Gubareva said.

        An agreement was finally made with the U.S. and Kazakh embassies for their release at 8 a.m. on Oct. 26, she said.

        Gubareva recalled Barayev announcing to the hostages that negotiations would finally begin at 10 or 11 a.m. on Oct. 26.

        “He said that everyone could relax until then, because there would be no assault until negotiations began,” she said.

        The hostages settled down to sleep, Gubareva said. The last time she saw her daughter and Booker was at 3:20 a.m.

        • So, does it mean that a person who buys theater or movie tickets has to prove his citizenship? I have been to over 60 countries but have never heard and seen anything like that.

          Are Russians carry their proof of citizenship when they go out? It sounds almost unbelievable to my American mind

            • Wow, all I can say

              • Dear RV,

                The “propiska” was used and enforced in 1932, among other laws passed by the kremlin, to exterminate about ten million (10,000,000) Ukrainian people during the genocide by forced starvation – HOLODOMOR! They would shoot or arrest starving Ukrainian farmers and mothers who tried to leave their village, in search of food for their children.

                >>1932 Law of Spikelets

                The common name came into use because peasants (including children) caught gleaning (hand-collecting the leftovers of grains or ‘spikelets’) in the collective fields after the harvest were arrested for “damaging the state grain production”, and would be shot.
                The law was also known as the “Seven Eighths” Law (Закон ‘семь восьмых’, Zakon “sem’ Vos’mykh”“), because the date in Russian is written as 7/8/1932

                The Soviet Encyclopedia of 1930 proudly wrote that the passport system was “a repressive invention of the police state, absent in Soviet law”. But this was not to last for long.

                On December 27, 1932 the USSR Central Executive Committee and Sovnarkom issued a decree About establishment of the Unified Passport System within the USSR and the Obligatory Propiska of Passports. The declared purposes were the improvement of population bookkeeping in various urban settlements and “the removal of persons not engaged in industrial or other socially-useful work from towns and cleansing of towns from hiding kulaks, criminals and other antisocial elements. “Hiding kulaks” was an indication at fugitive peasants who tried to run away from the collectivization. “Removal” usually resulted in some form of forced labour {PRONOUNCED – GENOCIDE OF THE UKRAINIANS IN THE GULAGS}.

                • Yes, the link provided by Robert was very educational; that “propiska” sounds like a really heavy handed kind of registration of population. Some normal countries have the registration system, but for genuinely benign purposes such as urban planning etc. Not so in the U.S.S.R.

                  Which took us far from the original question: how could it be that the foreigners are officially charged higher prices. I just cannot understand this. As I said, I’ve been to over 60 countries, but was never asked what my nationality was to determine the price of goods or services. Even in countries where it was obvious on sight I was a foreigner (Thailand, Japan, Fiji) I was never asked to pay more

                  • How it works:

                    There is a dual-pricing system in effect in Russia that infuriates many tourists. While Russians are charged barely pennies for entrance to museums and exhibitions, tourists have to pay outrageous fees. If you want to attempt getting a Russian-priced ticket, nobody can stop you (it’s certainly not illegal to try). In a particular busy summer afternoon, when lines are long and tellers are selling hundreds of tickets by the hour, you may get away with it. Just say bilet, pazhalsta, and pray that your accent is not too obvious. If all else fails, just pay the tourist price.

                    http://www.googobits.com/articles/p0-1514-st-petersburg-the-venice-of-the-north.html

  3. You’ve missed the point dear Max!

    The last sentence in the second paragraph emphatically states – and I quote “By contrast, America’s visitors come from the elite nations of the world, from Japan to France.”

    So that in between those two countries there somewhere is ex Stasi Merkel’s Germany which has a tourist there against his will!

    So do your homework ‘ol boy and surprise, surprise you might learn something!

  4. I never thought that I would agree with the Russians, but they seem to be right in one point: People from Ukraine are brainless idiots. BoGdan, Alexander – this blog and this article have nothing to do with the topic you are referring to. Go and find a Nazi chatroom and cry for your friend Demyanyuk.

  5. Inshallah,next year Dokka Umarov will destroy Rusnya,this bloody stinking murderer-empire! Rusnya,your days are counted,chechen national hero Amir Dokka Abu Usman Umarov,Amir of Cehchnya and the Caucasian Emirate threatens bloody russia with a major offensive next year in 2010 with catastrophal consequences for this stinking country full of Vodka-pigs!!!! RUSNYA WILL DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • “Kadyrov fan” strikes back, brings Umarov posing with dead leaves.

      Why won’t you and “I am Russian” (“KGB comrade” is just a troll) go play somewhere else together.

  6. You are blaming Ukrainians? You are a pro-russian scum-bastard,Max,you are a dirty pig,nothing else! All guys who symapthize with the empire of evil in even one point are brainless scum themselves,guys like you,Max!!! Shall i show you thousands of pictures from the chechen genocide? You deserve the name PIG

  7. long live the chechen-ukrainian friendship,dozens of millions of chechen and ukrainians were slaugthered by the bloody russian empire,Aleks and Bogdan,don´t be angry because of pigs like Max,he will burn in hell together with his bloody russian friends,inshallah,i promise you,his soul is doomed,forget this microbe,he isn´t woth to talk about!!! Long live the Ukraine!!!

    • RuSSian animals have slaughtered also Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians and Finns.

      No wonder why RuSSians, those vodka-drinking fascists are hated everywhere.

  8. Come on Robert,you pro-russian bastard,shoot yourself,that´s the best you can do for the planet!!!

  9. Max: our Ukrainian friends actually have a kind of point here, the Germans are gigantic douchebags.

    They are trying an elderly Ukrainian who has never been a German citizien, but many, MANY of their war criminals made political, police and military careers in Germany after the war.

    (See for example the last chapter book Hitler’s Bandit Hunters: The SS and the Nazi Occupation of Europe for the police careers of the people responsible even for the deaths of thousands civilians personally.)

    And when in 2004-2007 Italian courts sentenced several former SS officers for the massacres of Italians during the “anti-bandit” actions, Germany refused to extradite them. Because they’re too old. Get it?

    Yet Canada did: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23186261/

    • The Italian military tribunal at La Spezia has tried several other former Nazis for crimes committed in Italy during World War Two. In 2005 it handed life sentences to 10 elderly former SS soldiers for the massacre of 560 Italian civilians including 120 children in 1944 in the Tuscan town of Sant’Anna di Stazzema.

      At least two of the Germans have died since then. Another two received the same sentence in September 2006 for the massacre of 14 civilians in Falzano di Cortona and 10 others in January 2007 for a bloodbath in Marzabotto that left 955 dead.

      A German network called “Keine Ruhe!” (“No Peace!”) has rallied against allowing the men to live out their twilight years unperturbed and demanded long-delayed justice for the senior citizens.

      “There is a very strong tendency toward maintaining the silence,” the group charges.
      Ulrich Sander of the Association of Victims of Nazism/Federation of Antifascists welcomed the decision to put Scheungraber on trial as a “success”.

      But he said that while Germany actively tended to the memory of victims of Nazi war crimes, it seemed to have much less interest in bringing the last of the criminals to justice.

      “We are disappointed that the Scheungraber ruling handed down in Italy was not carried out by the German state,” he added.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1056260/Last-Nazi-war-crimes-case-German-commander-goes-trial-massacre-Italian-civilians-64-years-ago.html

      (And yet they have great interest in an Ukrainian living in the United States, who has never been a German citizien and was never accused of crimes against German citiziens neither. Interesting, isn’t it?)

    • And btw the German “anti-bandit” operations, this is also the term the Russians are using even today (just like in the Soviet times).

  10. Another Patriot of the anti-soviet movement wants to become a Georgian citizen

    “Soviet-Era Dissident Seeks Georgian Citizenship

    December 15, 2009
    Soviet-era dissident Alexander Bondarev, who left the USSR 30 years ago for France, wants to become a Georgian citizen, RFE/RL’s Ekho Kavkaza (Echo of the Caucasus) reports.

    Bondarev, who has been living in Paris for the past 30 years, told RFE/RL that he spent his youth in Tbilisi and loves Georgia.

    “I love Georgia and see that it is on the right path, so I want to be a citizen of the country I love,” Bondarev told RFE/RL.

    He said he has visited Georgia regularly and now wants to live there permanently.

    Georgian Deputy Foreign Minister Nino Kandaladze confirmed to RFE/RL that Bondarev has applied for Georgian citizenship, and said that his application is being processed.

    “Anyone has the right to apply for Georgian citizenship and enjoy dual citizenship status,” she said. ”

    http://www.rferl.org/content/SovietEra_Dissident_Seeks_Georgian_Citizenship/1904831.html

  11. Max ,
    I expect nothing less from an cowardly moscovite ass kisser such as you to call Ukrainians idiots since your ” friends ” the
    moscovites tell you to . We all know how well
    the germans follow orders . Just look how many
    of you degenerate bastards followed that great
    ” fuerer ” ( by the way I realize it’s spelled with
    an umlaut , unfortunately I am using a normal
    keyboard ) . Then after having your sorry asses
    kicked all over the place , you let the moscovites
    make you build a wall and transform half of your ” super Reich ” into a moscovite serfdom ,
    something the moscovites could not do to the
    ” idiot ” Ukrainians in three hundred years .
    More recently , your so called chancelor ,
    Shroeder , while still in office sold himself out
    to little Ras-Putin to become his lap dog . As I
    said you germans are great at taking orders .
    Now you have the product of the moscovite –
    KGB -STASI controlled moscovite Germany ,
    Angela Merkel , running your ” faterland ” . With
    close supervision from the moscovite Kremlin .
    So if you want to call Ukrainians idiots , fine .
    But at least they are not ass licking cowards ,
    who trip all over themselves to do their moscovite master’s bidding . And let me tell
    you another thing , you moscovite loving ninny,
    there is no way I can envision this sort of sorry
    spectacle that is going on now under the guise of
    justice in Germany , taking place in Ukraine .
    People there though awakening from a terrible
    spell under the moscovite , still have enough
    dignity and respect for human freedom to allow
    this travesty . But then look who I’m talking to ;
    you guys thought Hitler was a great guy . Mark
    my words , this ” trial ” will scar Germany for
    ever .
    Chechen mujahid, we are with you on driving the
    moscovite occupier from your country . Long
    live free Chechnia !

  12. @LES: And You? Are you La Russophobe’s deputy? I was under the impression that this site is dedicated to „the rise (and hopefully fall) of the Neo-Soviet Union“ and not to German-bashing. Indeed, English is not my native language. If you prefer me to go away – fine. Than you can stay here with your friends, the brainless Ukrainian nationalists and the Chechen terrorists. Good choice. The Ukrainians are just useless, and the Chechens hate the U.S. as much as they hate Russia. Islamic Fundamentalism today is a much bigger threat than the messy, corrupt and inefficient Russia.

    @Ukrainian nationalists: Your grandfathers begged my grandfather to allow them to lick his ass. Now you are licking the asses of the US and Europe to get some money for your corrupt and bankrupt government. Ukraine is the same as Russia, just on an even lower level. You just claim that you are part of the Western world, but you aren’t. You are as corrupt, as dishonest and as xenophobic as the Russians are, you are just dumber.

    @Islamic fundamentalists: George Bush has understood what you guys need: Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. What a pity that he isn’t around any more.

    • @and the Chechens hate the U.S. as much as they hate Russia.

      Even those?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Chechen-Americans

      Quick, send them to Gitmo!

    • Oh, and about this “chechen mujahid”, it’s just a case of provocateur/mythomaniac. He also randomly pretends to be someone from Poland, Germany, Dagestan, and even to be, this is a quote, “Kadyrov fan” (his Mr. Hyde I guess).

      I find his stuff, including the death threats agaisnt me, to be pretty hilarious, kinda like the old ravings of “I am Russian” only in reverse (at least most of the time, that is when he’s not “Kadyrov fan”).

    • Actually Max, having witnessed Russian looting, and their separatist puppets raping murdering and looting last year in Georgia, and having worked with Chechen and other north Caucasian refugees during volunteer work in NZ, I can assure you that Russia is a much bigger threat than the dreaded (irony) “Islamic fundamentalism”, especially considering the civillian death toll in Chechnya.

      Russia is a nuclear armed nut-job state, with a population that seems to take delight in the idea of global murder suicide.

      The Ukrainians do have a corruption problem, but unlike the Russians they are trying to fix it.

      Germany, unfortunately, is one of the arch appeasers of Putins Russia. I can tell you that your governments “sucking up” to the Russians is viewed with disgust in all former soviet republics (except Russia of course), and in the former warpac countries.

      Having Russia as a supplier of energy is no excuse for Germany’s decision to drop human rights improvements (or having human rights at all) in Russia as a condition of trade and investment.

      • Andrew, I fully agree with your statement on Germany’s foreign policy. I’m not representing or defending my government here. I would just like to say that Merkel (who was called „Stasi-Merkel“ by some idiots here) is slightly better than Gasprom-Schröder or as Helmut Kohl, who never visited the Baltic countries because he didn’t want to displease Moscow. (Still I admit that Merkel could do better: she promoted the takeover of Opel by A group including Sberbank and the takeover of a German shipyard by Russia. I have stated that in earlier posts in this blog).

        I understand your point on Russia vs. Islamic Fundamentalism. I would, however, say that Russia is (and has always been) a potential threat but the main goal of the depraved Kremlin gangsters is not attacking NATO. They want to steal as much as they can and keep it for themselves and their kids. There is no ideology which moves them. All their rhetoric about Russian values and being an alternative to the Western world is just garbage for the masses. The biggest danger I see here is that the desperate people take it serious and call for action. Russia is a threat for her neighbor countries, this is obvious, and that’s bad enough, but not for the U.S. or Western Europe. Islamic Fundamentalism is. It was not the Russians who destroyed the World Trade Centre. Islamic terrorists (I don’t say “Muslims”, by the way) are driven by values, and they are ready to die for it. That’s much more dangerous.

        Concerning Ukraine, their Rulers have the same attitude as the Russian, just the rhetoric is different. And for me as a German it is funny to see how they change their behavior. As long as they think that you will help them to get money or political support they kiss your ass and make references to a German-Ukrainian alliance in WWII, remembering how “we” kicked Russians out of the country. As soon as they understand that they are barking up the wrong tree (which usually takes some time) they start to abuse you as “Nazi pig” etc. I think that they should make up their mind if they actually like the “Third Reich” or not. Concerning efforts to fight corruption: I didn’t see any, but I’m open for new information.

  13. Thank you Robert, this is indeed very interesting. These guys are not very helpful for the purpose of this excellent blog.

  14. is it true that russia will give back kourile islands to japan ?

    • Probably someday.

      Anyway, check out these retards:

      With national pride at stake, the future status of the islands is a major political issue in both Russia and Japan. But feelings in Russia seem to be running especially high at the moment. Some of the Russians living on the islands have even vowed to set up a militia – members of the 100 strong Kurile’s Defense Squadron have vowed to fight to the death to defend their homes and livelihoods.

      23-year-old Dmitry from Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk also supported radical measures: “Me and my friends are going to be at the barricades, we won’t wait at the sidelines.” Anna, a student in economics, said: “There will be real slaughter. My two brothers said they will go to war if the islands are given away. My parents support their decision.”

      http://www.siberianlight.net/kuril-islands-under-dispute-again/

      They live in poverty there (as opposed to the high living standards in Japan) and they’re ready for “real slaughter” to keep living this way.

      Poverty or death!

  15. Also about Demjanjuk:

    In 2005 an immigration court ruled that he could be sent to Germany, Poland or his native Ukraine, and last May, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear the case.

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1887487,00.html

    Ukraine, Poland, sure.

    But as I said, the Germans are unlikely to prosecute/extradite their own war criminals while eager to reflect the blame on non-Germans.

    Almost like if the Russians suddenly started trials of the still-living Soviet NKVD criminals (who are of course regarded as “heroes” there to this day) but only if they were not Russians.

  16. Max ,
    Who are you kidding ? If you are a german , I am
    the emperor of China . Your last silly comment
    gave you totally away . You are not even smart enough to fabricate lies that may sound plausible . When did Ukraine EVER have an
    ” alliance ” with Nazi Germany and that lunatic
    Hitler ??? Was it not your own Moscovia that
    made the Ribbentropp – Molotov ” non agression
    Pact ” with the Nazis , you numbscull ? Now the
    moscovites are trying as hard as they can , to
    make the world forget how together with Nazis
    they were planing to rule the world . No , you
    silly litle ” katsap ” , you are way not smart enough to convince anyone with your stupid ,
    pathetic , overused cliches , go and find a site
    where there are people way more gullible than
    here . Do svidania , Maxim .

  17. I agree with Robert on German hypocrisy regarding war criminals. But don’t hate on Max, he does make some good points:

    – Indeed, for WESTERN Europe Russia is not that much of a direct threat (however, neither is “Islamist terrorism” in my opinion, that’s a completely imaginary bogeyman). However, Russia remains the main threat to Central/Eastern Europe and to the Caucasus. And I thought the EU and NATO was all about solidarity.

    – While I don’t agree with statements like “Ukrainians are idiots” Max is right that Ukraine is not that different from Russia. The fact that its current president (who will be replaced by a pro-Russian puppet next year anyway) has some personal bad blood with the Russians, or that there are some Ukrainian ultra-nationalists who hate the Russians out of a historical inferiority complex, doesn’t mean that Ukraine is “pro-western”. The same ultra-nationalists have the same inferiority complex and chauvinistic outlook towards their western neighbors as well.

    Max is also right that Ukrainians have a shameful history of opportunism and collaborationism. They gleefully participated (and often did most of the dirty work) both in the Nazi holocaust, and in Russian genocides all over Soviet-occupied Europe.

    Russian-Ukrainian rivalries should not concern us. They might have their squabbles at times, but when push comes to shove the Russians and their little brothers always stick for each other.

    • It’s not quite “completely imaginary”, a bunch of “al-Qaeda in Europe” amatours killed more people in Spain on one day than the ETA nationalists did in many years.

      • I’m not saying there are no Islamist terrorists in Europe, I’m saying that the “threat” is completely manufactured, it’s a convenient bogeyman. You have a higher chance of dying in a car crash than in a terrorist attack.

        • And there are actually a lot less terrorist attacks now than there were in the 70’s & 80’s when Russia was sponsoring every terrorist group in Europe, middle east and the Americas from the IRA, PLO, PFLP, Red Army factions in Germany and Italy, various nut jobs such as the Shining Path and the Columbian and Argentinian left wing drug trafficking nutters (which also applies to the “marxist” drug trafficking IRA) etc etc etc.

    • Dear A.,

      If Penny or Felix saw your comments, their comment would be two words:

      SOCKPUPPET ALERT!

      Sincerely,

      LES

      PS Are you or Max dilldohed? Or is dilldohead both of you?

  18. Dear Andrew,

    You stated: The Ukrainians do have a corruption problem, but unlike the Russians they are trying to fix it.

    What people fail to take into account is that the corruption problem in Ukraine is because of the russification of Ukraine, the russins that are still living in Ukraine. The kremlin hates President Yushchenko because he curbed the russification and rape of Ukraine.

    When the USSR fell apart, most top level positions were held by russin commies and KGB, and many still remain and undermine the economy and development of Ukraine. After raping Ukraine for all they could, they moved to moscow and live like ornery black pigs in shit.

    Five years ago, I was in a city hall in central Ukraine, and it was freezing. The people told me that the mayor had the boiler, which supplied heat to several buildings, cut up and sold as scrap to Western Europe in the 1990’s, and the town can not afford a new boiler. He raped what he could and moved to moscow. In a poor town in Southern Ukraine, the people told me that the director of the only factory sold all the machinery to Europe, and left. He filed a police report that the place was robbed. This factory produced Ukrainian items that were exported to Europe, USA, Canada, Japan, etc. In the Carpathian mountains, people told me that that in the 1990,s they came and cut down ALL of the big trees in the old forest, not caring that they destroyed many of the smaller trees, and sold the wood to Europe. This caused flooding, erosion, etc. A friend was a supervisor in a factory, with 500 men in his section. The director of the factory told him that there were three sets of railroad tracks from the factory to the distribution point, and he should have his men remove one. Then the director sold the railroad tracks to Europe as “SCRAP”. The following year, the director said that he could “get away with” one pair of railroad tracks, and to dismantle the rest, and again he sold it as “SCRAP”! Ukraine produces some of the best steel in the world, and is worth more than you think. This all happened in the 1990’s. This is only a small fraction of the oral history of Ukraine that I know. These few examples show the destruction of the Ukrainian infrastructure, economy, environment, etc; and, these things happened throughout Ukraine! You can not imagine what the russins continued and still continue to do in their rape and russification of Ukraine.

    The man wanted for the killing of Oleksander Litvinenko in England, with radiation, is living in moscow and is a member of the russin parliament. Many of the most wanted criminals in Ukraine are living in moscow, also. So, please consider these things before discussing how the Ukrainian people are corrupt.

    When the kremlin orchestrated the genocide by starvation {PRONOUNCED HOLODOMOR} and killed about Ten million (10,000,000) Ukrainians there were not only empty houses, there were entire empty villages.

    Five to Six million (5,000,000 – 6,000,000) ethnic Russians later poured into these “vacated” {PRONOUNCED GENOCIDE}, cultivated and furnished areas, dramatically altering their ethnic makeup and laying the ground for bitter disputes that continue to this day. {When the kremlin, and others, talk about the number of Ukrainians that were massacred by the kremlin, they do not take into account that the “vacated” houses and villages in Ukraine were replenished by russins.}

    And when kremlin propagandists state that Ukrainians are their brother, or that they are the same, it reminds me of George Orwell’s book – 1984 – or Cain and Abel – from the Bible.

    Genesis 4

    8 Cain said to Abel, his brother, “Let’s go into the field.” It happened when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel, his brother, and killed him.

    8 ¶ І говорив Каїн до Авеля, брата свого. І сталось, як були вони в полі, повстав Каїн на Авеля, брата свого, і вбив його.

    Sincerely,

    LES

    • {The secular uncivilized savage pagan barbarians in the kremlin = Cain}.

      • Les, I agree with what you are saying, my comment was that Ukraine (like all former communist states opressed by Russia for so long) has a corruption problem.

        Countries like Poland, the Baltic republics, and Georgia (well the parts of it not under Russian occupation) have been much more able to deal with corruption due to the fact that they had a much cleaner break with Russia than was possible in Ukraine, particularly considering the Russian settlement in the eastern part of the country.

        My comment was simply that Ukrainians realise there is a corruption problem, and want to do something about it, whereas the Russians consider corruption normal and unavoidabel fact of life.

  19. Robert is right on this dual pricing, but I have the solution my wife is Russian so when we visit I keep my English mouth shut, she books all concert tickets and cabs and I save a fortune.
    When we visited Moscow in 2001 we stayed at the In- tourist hotel near red square it cost my wife and I $60 per night a very reasonable price, then sadly they pulled this old hotel down its replacement now wants to charge us $500 per night. The only half safe destinations for the unwitting tourist are Moscow and St Petersburg, but it now costs a fortune to go there.

    Another off putting aspect to visiting Russia is that you have to first get a visa then when you arrive you have to register; the hotel you’re staying out will do this for a price. This registration restricts movement if you are stopped in a place where you’re not registered you’re in big trouble. The EU or US does not restrict visitor’s movement in this way. This is a legacy of the Soviet Union and because it still exists it shows that this society has not moved away from its soviet past.

    • Having a legacy of the Soviet Union is a poor excuse, of course. Of all the countries stemming from that entity I only visited one, Lithuania, a few years back, and in spite of having the same legacy, one would never see its manifestations.

      Very impressive cleanliness everywhere, everybody speaks pretty decent English, no visa required, of course none of this nonsensical dual pricing. Everything looks no different from Denmark or Holland (perhaps, the looks are deceiving).

      So, how come Lithuania has managed to overcome that accursed “legacy” but Russia can’t? Perhaps, because Lithuanians wanted to become a part of the West but Russians don’t want to?

  20. “Outbound tourism from Russia, however, is soaring.”
    I wonder where these Russian money on leisure travel abroad? Previously, said that they were all beggars. And when in the U.S. going to rest, for some reason there does not remain, and nourish in Russia.

  21. Les ,
    Great , articulate and informative post . You
    absolutely present the many problems Ukraine
    has as the result of moscovite occupation and
    genocide . After reading your post , only someone completely uninformed would still
    consider Ukraine and Moscovia , similiar .

  22. Hi Robert,

    I have been watching this witch-hunt, and these kangaroo courts, for over 30 years. Meanwhile, Germany passes a law about 40 years ago that German Nazis received amnesty and can not be prosecuted. It is absurd that a Ukrainian Prisoner of War is being brought back to Germany to face charges for being a guard in a system they themselves created and designed and instructed.

    It disgusts me to see how the kremlin sponsored KGB manipulates useful idiots, the media, and other nations with their intentional malicious disinformation.

    In the village where Demjanjuk was born, there were many people with the last name Demjanjuk. Many men had name ‘Ivan’, among them. There was another Ivan Demjanjuk, born there, who was captured and had worked as a guard in a camp for the Nazis. He came back to the village in 1947, very nervous and out of balance. After the KGB asked him for an interview, he committed suicide the next day… All data related to this story was eliminated by the KGB from the Ukrainian archives. Nothing remains. This story is investigated in Ukr. TV today (6 of Dec.) 20.30, ICTV.

    There was a Committee defending Demjanjuk created in Ukraine in the past. Its Head, Volodymyr Kotelnytsky, was killed with his mother in his flat in 90th. ALL DOCUMENTS related to Demjanjuk, disappeared… {The KGB easily killed Oleksander Litvinenko in London. It is much easier for the KGB to operate in Ukraine.}

    In the 1950s and 1960s Waffen-SS veteran groups successfully fought numerous legal battles in West Germany to overturn the Nuremberg ruling and win pension rights for their members.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS

    Here are some of the Germans that were found guilty of War crimes and Crimes against humanity during the Nuremberg trials.

    Hitler’s Minister of Economics. Succeeded Schacht as head of the Reichsbank. Released due to ill health on 16 May 1957.[14] Died 31 May 1960.

    Wehrmacht Generaloberst, Keitel’s subordinate and Chief of the OKW’s Operations Division 1938–1945. Subsequently exonerated by German court in 1953, though the exoneration was later overturned, largely as a result of pressure by American officials.[18]

    Minister of Foreign Affairs 1932–1938, succeeded by Ribbentrop. Later, Protector of Bohemia and Moravia 1939–43. Resigned in 1943 due to dispute with Hitler. Released (ill health) 6 November 1954[21] after having a heart attack. Died 14 August 1956.

    Commander In Chief of the Kriegsmarine from 1928 until his retirement in 1943, succeeded by Dönitz. Released (ill health) 26 September 1955.[23] Died 6 November 1960.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials

    Six was tried as a war criminal at Nuremberg in the Einsatzgruppen Trial of 1948. Unable to link him directly to any atrocities, the Nuremberg tribunal sentenced him to 20 years imprisonment. A clemency court commuted this sentence to 10 years, and he was released on 30 September 1952.

    SS Standartenführer; member of the SD and the Gestapo; commanding officer of Sonderkommando 7a of Einsatzgruppe B Death by hanging commuted to 25 years; released 1955 died 1974

    SS Standartenführer; member of the SD; commanding officer of Sonderkommando 7a of Einsatzgruppe B and of Sonderkommando 4a of Einsatzgruppe C Death by hanging commuted to 20 years; released June 1954; died 1987

    SS Obersturmbannführer; member of the SD; commanding officer of Einsatzkommando 6 of Einsatzgruppe C Death by hanging commuted to lifetime imprisonment, released in 1958 {died 1986}

    SS Obersturmbannführer; member of the Gestapo; commanding officer of Einsatzkommando 12 of Einsatzgruppe D Lifetime imprisonment commuted to 10 years; died 1990

    SS Obersturmbannführer; member of the SD; commanding officer of Sonderkommando 7b of Einsatzgruppe B Death by hanging commuted to lifetime imprisonment; released 9 May 1958

    SS Sturmbannführer; member of the SD; officer of Sonderkommando 7b of Einsatzgruppe B Death by hanging commuted to lifetime imprisonment; released 1956-died 1980

    Martin Sandberger (born 17 August 1911) was an SS Standartenführer (Colonel) and commander of Sonderkommando 1a of the Einsatzgruppe, as well as commander of the Sicherheitspolizei and SD in Estonia. He played an important role in the mass murder of the Jews in the Baltic states. He was also responsible for the arrest of Jews in Italy and their deportation to Auschwitz concentration camp. Sandberger was the highest official of Einsatzgruppe A to be tried and convicted.[1] He held the rank of Obersturmbannführer (lieutenant colonel).[1]

    Conviction
    Crimes against humanity
    Penalty Sentenced to death by hanging, commuted to life imprison, and released after 6 years

    Over time these and other well-connected people lobbied for Sandberger’s early release. By late 1957, there were only four war criminals held in prison in West Germany. One of them was Sandberger, who, on January 9, 1958, was himself released from Landsberg prison.[13]

    As of September 2009, Sandberger is alive. He is the highest ranked SS officer known to be alive, and one of the oldest living SS officer of World War II.

    Of the 14 death sentences, only four were carried out; the others were commuted to prison terms of varying lengths in 1951. In 1958, all convicts were released from prison.

    Immediately after the war, top Nazis like Hermann Goering were convicted at war-crimes trials run by the Allied powers. Investigations of the lower ranks eventually fell to German courts.

    Many of those trials ended with short sentences, or acquittal, of suspects in greater positions of responsibility than Demjanjuk allegedly had. Demjanjuk is accused as having served as a “Wachmann” or guard, the lowest rank of the so-called “Hilfswillige” or “Hiwi” volunteers who were subordinate to German SS men.

    For example, Karl Streibel, commandant of the SS Trawniki training camp, where Demjanjuk is alleged to have trained, was tried in Hamburg but acquitted in 1976 after the judges ruled it had not been proved that he knew what the guards being trained would be used for.

    The trial of nine SS men who served at Belzec lasted only three days in August 1963 and ended in the acquittal of all but one. The defendants argued that they were only following orders and would have risked death if they had disobeyed. Moreover, they suggested that the genocide could not have been carried out without the aid of some of the Jews themselves who were forced to act as “kapos.” Josef Oberhauser, who played a central role in operating the camp, was the only one convicted. He received a sentence of four-and-a-half years and released after serving only half his sentence.

    In fact, Jewish children in the Warsaw ghetto were taught that if they had to escape, they should go to a Ukrainian guard, but never a kapo. How many kapos were indicted? There were over 50,000 kapos?

    The whole fiasco started when the KGB provided the OSI {?} with forged documents under the condition that OSI will not do any forensic tests on the documents.

    An eyewitness that testified that Demjanjuk was Ivan the Terrible, when asked how he came to Israel from the USA to testify, the same eyewitness stated, “I took a train from the USA to Israel.” KGB operative Armand Hammer had spirited Trawniki ID 1393 and (presumably) three other ID cards to the Israeli prosecution — bypassing regular diplomatic channels.

    Demjanjuk’s Israeli lawyer, Yoram Sheftel, wrote a terrific book about that show trial and was able to prove that the evidence used was a joint collaboration between the Soviet Union and Israel. For his good work in getting Demjanjuk off, some Israeli citizen threw acid into Sheftel’s face and blinded him. And Demjanjuk’s innocence was proven in Israel where they DID consider charges that he was a guard at Sobibor. And the Sobibor camp inmates all testified that he was never there including one that worked in the guards’ barracks – he knew them all and said that Demjanjuk was never there. The Israeli supreme court finally cleared him of all charges, after he spent 15 years in prison and on death row – because of the forged KGB documents. At the 1993 trial, the judges set Demjanjuk free. Respect for the law and due process prevailed; Demjanjuk was not guilty of the charges brought against him in 1988. Meanwhile, there are no {PRONOUNCED ZERO} eye witnesses that can place him in Sobidor: and they are using forged KGB documents again!

    The German Nazis are laughing all the way to the bank because the will prove to the Jews that they are on their side by prosecuting any non-German that is assumed to have been forced to work for the Nazis, and the German STASI-KGB are happy that they pleased the kremlin and will get a flow of gas. Germans are now trying to rewrite history, making out their biggest victims {Ukrainians} into a perpetrator. The Nazis tried to kill him once during the war, now they are trying to do it again. Germany is bottom feeding again, trying to absolve their sins, by pinning it on a “Ukrainian Untermenschen”. Shame.

    Meanwhile, the secular uncivilized barbarians in the kremlin are drinking vodka and laughing because they extended their “near abroad” and their “sphere of influence” far into western Europe, and their strategy of divide-and-rule is again working by pitting the Jews against the Ukrainians with forged KGB documents and disinformation. Let the world forget the Molotov-Ribbentrop that they signed to divide Europe between Germany and the kremlin, and blame the Ukrainian peasants for their atrocities?

    Media coverage has, so far, neglected to highlight that – in every criminal trial, including Demjanjuk’s – the basic presumption of innocence applies. The accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Demjanjuk does not have to prove his innocence. The prosecution must prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Calling him a Nazi may garner headlines, but it will not change the fact that Nazi ideology precluded non-Aryans like Demjanjuk, who was Ukrainian and, therefore, an Untermensch or subhuman. This made him ineligible to be part of the Nazi Party. As an Untermensch, it is more likely Demjanjuk was a victim of the Nazi regime than a persecutor.

    According to recent stories, Michael Hanusiak, editor of the New York-based Ukrainian Daily News, in 1975 compiled a list of Ukrainians suspected of collaborating with Germans and presented it to the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service.

    ***{Some of the most damning evidence comes from statements made by Ignat Danilchenko, a now-deceased Ukrainian who once served in the Soviet army and was exiled to Siberia after World War II for helping the Nazis.

    In 1979, he told the Soviet KGB he served with Demjanjuk at Sobibor and that Demjanjuk “like all guards in the camp, participated in the mass killing of Jews.”

    However, the U.S. Office of Special Investigations has questioned the validity of his statements, saying they contained “numerous factual errors.”}***

    Demjanjuk was on the list. What Engelhart failed to identify was that the Ukrainian Daily News was nothing more than a Soviet mouthpiece, at least according to Yoram Sheftel, an Israeli attorney who wrote about the incident in his book Defending Ivan the Terrible. The newspaper served as a convenient vehicle for the Soviet KGB to set off Ukrainians against Jews, particularly in the United States.

    But in 1993, after the defense was able to amass irrefutable evidence to the contrary, the Israeli Supreme Court lifted the sentence, dismissed the charges which, incidentally, included that he was in Sobibor, and allowed him to return to the United States.

    Not long ago Germany passed legislation that effectively provided amnesty from prosecution for German Nazis, including SS concentration camp commanders and their German subordinates. But the amnesty did not include Untermenschen like Demjanjuk.

    That fact alone makes it hard to believe that this case is not a show trial. Consider the charge itself. Demjanjuk is charged not with war crimes or crimes against humanity, nor even of murder, but of being an accessory to murder. Not murder in Germany, but in Sobibor, that is to say, in Poland. Not as a high-level official, but as a low-ranking guard. Not as a German, but as a Ukrainian. Not of one or a few victims – but of 29,700 victims! Adolf Hitler in his 1925 autobiography Mein Kampf of a lie so “colossal” that no one would believe that someone “could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.” It seems almost as if this is the approach being used by the prosecutors in Munich and that German descendants appear ready to buy it once again today.

    In the book Defending Ivan the Terrible, Yoram Sheftel, the Israeli defense attorney in the successful Demjanjuk appeal, points out that — from the very beginning — American authorities with the help of Israeli police prepared “photo spreads” to be presented to Sobibor survivors in which Demjanjuk’s picture was included for identification.

    Sheftel indicates that “all 10 Sobibor survivors in Israel, who were shown the photographs, recognized neither Demjanjuk nor Federenko as someone from the Sobibor death camp. Thus, at that early stage, it was clear that the Soviet plot to present Demjanjuk as a former guard at the Sobibor death camp was totally unfounded.”

    So far as is known there is no witness who can establish that Demjanjuk even harmed someone, much less murdered anyone. Only one statement taken by the Soviet KGB secret police of a Sobibor guard named Danylchenko indicated that Demjanjuk was also there. Danylchenko later indicated he was tortured by the KGB and has since died without ever being cross-examined. That is the extent of the known German prosecution evidence on presence.

    With regard to the Travniki card, Sheftel indicates that on Jan. 23, 1987, the original Travniki document that purports to indicate that Demjanjuk was in Sobibor was provided for examination to the German police force’s main criminal-identification laboratory in Weisbaden, known as BKA. The laboratory analysts indicated that even after a cursory examination, it was evident that the document was a forgery. They pointed out that the face in the photograph which the prosecution in Israel had identified as Demjanjuk’s had been posted on to the uniform using photo-montage techniques. The picture was not originally attached to the card, but had been transferred from another document. There was no match between the seal on the Travniki picture and that on the document itself. Further German analysis was stopped by the Israelis with this initial report.

    The Travniki document was also the subject matter of the evidence of Julius Grant, the world’s foremost forensic expert and the man who revealed the forgeries of the “Mussolini diaries” and the “Hitler diaries.”

    Having analyzed all the known signatures of Demjanjuk in the years 1947 to 1986, Grant testified that the Demjanjuk signature on the card differed from all the others in the way the Ds and Ms were formed and in the fact that in all other signatures the writing was continuous but on the card it was not. Further, Grant pointed out that there were two holes in the right side of the picture on the card whilst on the paper under the holes in the photograph there were no holes. Judging by the purple ink found inside the holes which was similar to ink used by the KGB and the nature of the spacing of the holes, Grant concluded it was more logical to assume that the photograph was unstapled from some other Soviet documents and attached to the card in the Soviet Union, than that it was attached in Travniki in 1942.

    Israeli officials refused to allow Grant to detach the photo from the card to make a conclusive finding, but he nonetheless concluded his evidence by saying that “the Travniki document cannot be an authentic document belonging to the defendant Demjanjuk.”

    http://www.kyivpost.com/news/opinion/op_ed/detail/53709/

    Personally, I believe that whether he was a guard or not, is a moot point. How can you say that those who gave the orders were innocent … and the one who received the orders is guilty?

    Germany accused of double standards

    Demjanjuk’s lawyer Ulrich Busch argues that the case is a farce because German SS members at the Sobibor death camp, where he is accused of being a guard, were acquitted in earlier trials.

    “How can it be that those who gave the orders can have been found innocent?” Demjanjuk’s lawyer asked a packed Munich courtroom on Monday on the first day of what is likely to be the last major Holocaust trial.

    “It is problematic that German guards at Sobibor were acquitted at the Hagen trials in the 1960s, whereas a foreigner who was forced to obey orders or die of hunger could be convicted,” said historian Hans-Juergen Boemelburg.

    http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=24&art_id=nw20091201154031348C788397

    The KGB murdered as many Ukrainians in 1941 as Jews were killed in Sobibor in 1943, the period for which Demjanjuk faces trial. No one has ever faced trial for these atrocities, and no one ever will. Since when is a slave or even foot solder responsible for the commands of his masters/superiors? He spent ABOUT THIRTY YEARS (30 years) in prison; AND IN COURTS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD because of KGB fabricated documents! Meanwhile, the true convicted Nazi ringleaders were released over 50 years ago. And, during the Nuremberg trials not one Ukrainian was indicted, even though the KGB tried to persuade them, with forged documents that Bandera, UPA, etc were Nazis also. When will the KGB and Germans be indicted for the ten million people that Ukraine lost – 1939-1945?

    >> 1945 Yalta agreement. Key points of the meeting are as follows: Citizens of the Soviet Union and of Yugoslavia were to be handed over to their respective countries, regardless of their consent.

    There were three to five and a half million (3,000,000 – 5,500,000) Ukrainian Untermenschen [Ukrainians were considered sub-human by the Nazis] OST-Arbeiters [slave labor] that were taken from Ukraine, by the Nazis, to work in Germany. Also, many Ukrainians were in the German concentration camps, and there were Ukrainian POW’s too. When the allies gave the Ukrainians to the KGB handlers from the kremlin, many were shot or hung. Most of the rest were loaded into cattle cars and transported east. Unfortunately, the trains did not stop before the borders of Eastern Ukraine; instead, the trains went directly to the gulags, because of the orders from the kremlin {PROUNOUNCED GENOCIDE} . During the cold winter months, about 50 % of the Ukrainians died during transport to the gulags.

    Enrollment Ostarbeiter more remarkable and noticeable number of children. Some of the 5.5 million people who were repatriated after the war, about 30% were children under the age of 16 years. At the time of theft in Germany of, respectively, were no more than 12-14 years. (on the Ukrainian prisoners of war, just as for Jews, there were plans to forced sterilization)

    For Ostarbeiter same ban on marriage was not. Gave birth ostovki and children, mostly – from their own legal husbands. For most of them conceived in sin, the child is a disgrace to the rest of his life and nearly closed the possibility of returning to his native village. So the Germans could only marvel at the moral stability and chastity of girls from Ukraine.

    http://magazines.russ.ru/zvezda/2005/6/po8.html

    Ukraine lost one in four of its population during the Second World War, the largest losses of any country and about 20% of the total deaths.

    • LES, I know very well about the German state’s hypocrisy, and the Austrian is even greater (“victims of Hitler and Germany”). So was the Allied and Soviet respective hypocisy and leniency in many cases (this while many INNOCENT Germans were executed and even more died in captivity, especially Soviet). And Wikipedia is only good for someone who has no idea.

      I know the German occupation of Ukraine was a brutal one. That’s not what I was even talking about. I was rather talking about the recent myth of the great resistance by the Ukrainian nationalists. The UPA “partisans” were, to put it mildly, not interested in fighting Germans. And vice-versa. (Similar situation to the late-war Chetniks in Serbia and Bosnia.)

      Anyway, there were actually various Kapo trials, notably the Kapo Trials in Israel in 1n the 1950s-1960s and the Third Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial in 1968. Later, for example this: http://www.nytimes.com/1987/05/26/nyregion/haunting-issues-surround-jewish-nazi-camp-overseer.html

  23. A .,
    “Max is also right Ukrainians have a shameful
    history of opportunism and collaboration , they
    gleefuly participated ( and often did the dirty
    work ) both in the Nazi holocost and in the
    russian genocides all over soviet occupied
    Europe ” .
    Let’s see , shameful opportunism , could you be
    referring to the first chance that the Ukrainians
    seized to re-establish independance , albeit at
    the german advance , and get rid of the hated
    moscovite , even at the cost of going to bed
    with the devil , was that opportunism ? Absolutely . Shameful ? Only from your point of view .
    Collaboration , really ? You are accusing
    Ukrainians of collaboration ( I must assume you
    mean with germans , because only a fool would
    accuse Ukrainians ever collaborating with the
    moscovites ) based on a number of prisoners of
    war that had little choice , crimminals who worked for pay , or people of low moral character who lacked the will to refuse . How
    large was their total number ? No one knows ,
    perhaps afew hundered , perhaps a few thousand
    perhaps many thausends , how does that compare to a population of forty million ? Enough to establish a ” history ” ? You see how
    stupid that looks .
    Now if you really are intrerested in collaboration
    let’s look at some other nationalities and countries that were part of the german war effort . Slovakia , german ally , Hungary , german ally , Romania , german ally , Italy ,
    german ally, Austria , german ally , France (Vichy ) , german ally , Russia ( ROA , Vlassov
    Army , whatever ) german ally ! So much for
    your silly collaboration theory .
    As for your accusations that Ukrainians participated , on russians behest , in genocides
    all over soviet occupied Europe , you have got
    me there , I have no clue as to what in tne hell you are talking about . Just let me tell you this ,
    If you knew anything about anything at all , you
    would not go around spouting stupid stuff like
    this about Ukrainians , since they themselves
    endured the worst genocide in history at the
    hands of the soviet moscovite .
    As a P.S . , I will add that my own parents , at the
    risk of their own lives , and that of their three
    children , hid and saved a young jewish girl who
    somehow managed to escape from a german
    transport . So , DO NOT talk to me about
    collaboration !

  24. @Oleksander

    Well,

    Ukrainian nationalists were actually quite eager to collaborate with the Germans than the Germans (it was the Germans were much less enthusiastic about this and did not allow a puppet Ukrainian state like the ones they gave the Slovaks and the Croats).

    Ukrainians (and not Russians or whoever) also happened to man the Aktion Reinhard camps (about 2 million Polish Jews killed in 1942) otherwise run by a small circle of German SS and police officers.

    Recently, I hear much from the Ukrainian circles about how the UPA supposedly fought hard against the Germans, tales of epic battles. Somehow, I don’t believe this.

  25. Robert already covered the Nazi collaboration part. So, Alexander, as for the Russian collaboration part, if you’re blissfully unaware of your own history, let me remind you that Ukraine’s current borders were drawn arbitrarily by Stalin and Khrushchev, and that Ukrainians contributed actively to the ethnic cleansing and genocide committed against the native populations of those occupied territories. They also profited from it: Ukrainian immigrants were given the houses and jobs of locals who had been killed or deported, and this happened not only in the territories stolen by Ukraine, but also in the Baltic states, in Bassarabia, in the Caucasus etc. Face it, historically the Ukrainians have been like the Ossetes: always prepared to do the dirty work for their bigger brothers. As recently as 1992, Ukrainian Cossacks fought for the separatist regime in Transnistria (backed by the Russian mafia, which still controls the area).

    As I said before, Ukraine will only be prepared to be in NATO and the EU once it ceases to act like Russia in miniature.

  26. John Demjanjuk Jr.:

    The Germans have built a house of cards and the hurricane is coming

    December 30th, 2009 by Blackminorca

    The Munich prosecutor is collaborating with and shielding known German citizens from prosecution when evidence exists that they directly participated in murder. As part of their strategy, the Munich prosecutor actively recruited Jewish survivors and victims’ families to join them as Nebenklaeger (a co-plaintiff or co-prosecutor*) with the hope that the emotion of the subject matter would cause the Judges to ignore their lack of evidence. Since Germany has acquitted the Germans who ran Sobibor, they have excused it as mistakes of the past not to be repeated now. The following information and attached samples of evidence show that Munich is TODAY still covering up for it own citizens who should have been prosecuted in order to instead prosecute a Ukrainian POW for the deeds of the Germans. Having lured the Nebenklaeger into this cover up will only bring more shame upon Germany adding to the guilt it desperately seeks to absolve.
    The Germans have built a house of cards and the hurricane is coming.

    Some of the media appears blinded by the emotional subject matter of the Munich proceedings. They have written that my father has admitted being in Sobibor or has neither confirmed nor denied the allegations. In fact, throughout the past 30 yrs of legal proceedings he has consistently denied, and continues to deny, any allegations regarding participation in the Holocaust and it remains the prosecutor’s burden to prove otherwise. His attorney, Dr. Ulrich Busch has argued the same and in opening motions referred to generic POW Trawnikis being coerced into service by fear of death, not specifically John Demjanjuk. Some have condemned the comparison of a generic POW Trawniki to a Jewish death camp worker. They are ignorant of the case files which support Dr. Busch’s arguments and hold information from investigations having taken place over the last 60 yrs. The comparison is not legal conjecture but based on historical evidence which will stand the test of litigation. The events of the Holocaust are shocking and indisputable; however, the Munich trial is a travesty of justice. Of course, the survivors and families are not responsible for what is being perpetrated by the Munich prosecution, co-prosecuting attorneys and judiciary. As history has proven, it is Germany that is to blame for their suffering and also my father’s since being captured as a Red Army POW.

    The prosecutors have invited co-prosecutors to participate as permitted by German law. The Munich prosecutor has documentary evidence from over 50 witnesses who gave testimony independently during the past 60 yrs to German, Polish, Canadian and Soviet investigators. They collectively validate as historical truth that Soviet POWs like my father were treated inhumanely and murdered by starvation. The testimonies individually and collectively validate that POW Trawnikis were coerced under fear of death into service and shot for planning desertion, attempting escape, theft of valuables, etc.

    The co-prosecuting attorneys should also be aware that among the witnesses to be called by them are 2 German citizens who did not serve in Sobibor but in other Nazi death camps including Belzec and Treblinka (Indictment prosecution witnesses listed as #4 Nagorny and #5 Kunz). The Munich prosecutor has multiple investigative reports regarding these German citizens having committed specific murders, yet they have not been prosecuted to date. Rather, the true Nazi murderers and German citizens being shielded by the prosecutors while they try to convict a Ukrainian POW against whom there is admittedly no evidence of a single murder, not even a simple assault. The evidence against the prosecutors’ living Nazi witnesses self-explanatory and attached. Here are two excerpts from the testimonies:

    Testimony of Bronov, Sept 5, 1950, Pages 2,3: “Because of poor shooting, many of the people doomed to death were only wounded. Kunts saw their suffering, approached Pichulyak, and took his rifle, as he was only armed with a pistol. Then, while saying the words “that is not how we shoot them,” he fired several times at the prisoners lying in the pit.”

    Testimony of Knysh, Jan 29, 1948, Page 8: “Aleskej Nagornyj” “He served as an SS Wachmann in the detachment of the “Travniki” concentration camp from the first days when the camp was established. He then served as an SS Wachmann in the “Treblinka” concentration camp and in the Ostarbeiter camp in Rostok. From his statements to me, I know that he participated in a shooting of 3,000 prisoners”.

    For the Sobibor survivors attending the trial, families of the victims and the gallery of media reporting to the world to be unaware of the investigative material is understandable. However, the attorneys who are co-prosecuting with the Munich team must be aware of their own investigative files. The German court, prosecutors and attorneys of the co-plaintiffs (Nebenklaeger) are exploiting the Jewish survivors and victims’ families for the purpose of showing the world that Germany is not guilty. For Germany, the motive to convict POW John Demjanjuk is to acquit Germany.

    *Nebenklaeger is a co-plaintiff or co-prosecutor as is permitted by German law. The Munich prosecutor invited the Sobibor survivors and family of victims to join his case against John Demjanjuk.

    http://cybercossack.com/?p=1656

  27. On John Demjanjuk’s behalf, the following Declaration was read
    in the German language by his attorney, Dr. Ulrich Busch,
    during the April 13th 2010 public court session in Munich, Germany.

    DECLARATION
    of the accused
    to the criticism of the court and the prosecutors
    of his behaviour during the trial:

    I am personally thankful to the people who are helping me in my hopeless position as a very ill person, be it in prison or here in the courtroom. Therefore, I especially thank the medical personnel who are very helpful in alleviating my major aches and pains and who help me to survive this trial which for me is torture. As a matter of fact, I point out the following:

    Germany is guilty of the war of destruction against the Soviet Union through which I lost my home and homeland.

    Germany is guilty of forcing me to become a prisoner of war.

    Germany is guilty of creating prisoner of war camps where through purposeful denial of enough food rations I and millions of other Red Army prisoners were sentenced to die of starvation and only with God’s help did I survive.

    Germany is guilty of forcing me to become a slave labourer of the Germans in the prisoner of war camp.

    Germany is guilty of this war of destruction where 11 million of my fellow Ukrainians were murdered by the Germans and more millions of Ukrainians, including my loving wife Vera, were abducted to Germany to forced labour and slavery by the Germans.

    Germany is guilty of making thousands upon thousands of my countrymen unwilling German collaborators and forcing them to join in the perverse genocide program against Jews, Sinti, Roma, Slavs, Ukrainians, Poles and Russians under the threat of death as hundreds and more than hundreds that wanted to refuse this, were killed for that by the Germans. Over and above this, hundreds of thousands were deported to Ukraine and executed by Stalin or tortured for ages in the Siberian Gulag and lowered to work as slaves for the Communists.

    Germany is guilty of forcing me to live a wretched life as a displaced person in a DP camp years after the war.

    Germany is guilty of forcibly having me deported to Germany even after 30 years of legal prosecution in Israel, the USA, as well as, Poland and after more than 10 years of imprisonment, more than 5 of those in a death cell in Israel, at the end of my life and in my 90th year.

    Germany is to blame for false charges of accessory to murder being levied against me at the end of my life when I am without life’s energy in violation of 65-year-old case law and also in violation of the EMRK (European Convention for Human Rights).

    Germany is to blame for my having to vegetate more than 9 months in Stadelheim, in a prison, isolated, not free – though innocent.

    Germany is to blame for my having forever lost my second homeland, the USA, without a chance to return.

    Germany is to blame for my having forever lost the sense of my entire life, my family, my happiness and any kind of future and hope.

    I have experienced every minute, every hour, every day, every week and every month since May 12, 2009 as a prisoner of war in Germany. I have experienced this process as a continuation of my terrible memories with Germans, as a continuation of the indescribable wrong which has been done to me by Germans. I am again and repeatedly an innocent victim of the Germans. I feel this as an inexpressible wrong that Germany with the help of this trial is making out of me, a prisoner of war, a war criminal. I find it an unbearable arrogance of Germany, that Germany is misusing me to turn the attention away from the war crimes committed by Germans, to make them forgotten and against the truth to claim that the true criminals of the Nazi crimes were me, the Ukrainians and the European neighbours of Nazi Germany.

    I consider this trial, which is held exclusively against me, an alleged foreign Travniki, in violation of the principles of equal treatment as provided to German SS members and to an uncountable number of “German Travnikis”, incompatible with justice and the principle of equality. I have already defended myself against the accusation of the Munich prosecutor while in Israel. In Israel, I was accused of being connected to Nazi crimes in Sobibor. The Israeli Supreme Court specifically recognized that this accusation of the Israeli Prosecutor could not be proven, a legal verdict was decided on the Sobibor accusation in such a manner taking into account with special reference to the already suffered arrest of more than 7 ½ years. I was jailed in Israel for these charges against me for 7 ½ years with 5 of those years in a death cell.

    I feel it is not compatible with fairness and humanity, that for over 35 years I have had to defend myself as a constantly chased legal victim of the Office of Special Investigation of the USA and the circles behind it, especially the World Jewish Congress and the Simon Wiesenthal Centre which live off of the holocaust. Now at the end of my life and the end of my strength, the 30th or 40th trial in the same case is being made and I do not have the strength to fight. I am helpless against this judicial war waged against me for over 30 years which the Germans are now continuing against me in place of the OSI.

    My beloved wife Vera, with whom I have been married for over 50 years, also suffered in Germany. It was the Germans who deprived my wife of her youth and took her by force to Germany for years of forced labor. She was for years in German slave labor under cruel and inhumane conditions.

    The suffering that we endured in connection with the German war of annihilation against us Slavs is not describable in measurable words. That Germany has again and again chosen me and my family to be victimized is, for me, incomprehensible.

    John Demjanjuk

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