Babitsky on Chechnya

Andrei Babitsky

Andrei Babitsky

David McDuff says this is Andrei Babitsky writing under a Georgian pseudonym for Prague Watchdog:

Andrei Soldatov’s recent article in Yezhednevny Zhurnal [about Moscow’s alleged ceding of control of the counter-terrorist operation to Ramzan Kadyrov, see the link (tr.)] left me with mixed feelings. I do not consider myself too proficient a judge of the control structures of the security agencies in Chechnya, and am therefore always interested to read what the experts have to say on this subject. Soldatov is without any doubt a highly informed specialist in this field, so anything written by him is likely to help one towards a better understanding of what is taking place in the republic. However, it seems to me that in the conclusions it makes his article repeats the stereotypical fears that are characteristic of Russia’s liberal community.

Let me explain what I mean.

The article gives a detailed description of the successful operation Ramzan Kadyrov has carried out to seize control of the “last important federal structure in the republic” – the Operational Staff (OSh). This is a coordinating centre, designed to lead and organize all security operations Chechnya. In 2001 the Operational Staff (earlier known as ROsh) was placed under the direction of the Federal Security Service (FSB). In 2003 it was transferred to the control of the Interior Ministry in order to make the counter-terrorist operation look like a purely policing exercise. Soldatov’s article contains a good many details with which those who are interested may acquaint themselves, but I shall skip to the end of the story, as the story itself is not germane to my reflections. By ending the counter-terrorist operation, Ramzan Kadyrov sent a kind of signal for the activation of the plan to seize control of the Operational Staff. To achieve this, all that had to be done was for a “silovik” loyal to  Kadyrov to be placed in command of the Staff.  As a result, President  Medvedev approved or authorized the return of control over the body to the National Anti-Terrorist Committee, which takes its orders from the FSB, and Alexander Sulimov, head of the Chechen branch of the FSB, became head of the Operational Staff. From the context of the article it follows that Sulimov is a figure who is under Kadyrov’s control. 

What conclusions does Andrei Soldatov draw from this? With obvious regret he notes that the federal centre is losing the last levers of influence on Kadyrov’s power politics. It is in this part of the article that  the author seems to follow an uncritically adopted ritual which offers the reader a completely inadmissible angle of vision on the events in Chechnya. I don’t blame Soldatov, who is merely reproducing an ideological framework which, used as a tool of analysis, may not be recognized as unacceptable from the point of view of morality. Kadyrov’s “systemic separatism”, with which the political scientists and experts like to frighten Russia’s civil society, has long acquired the status of a perfectly valid term that may be used in a particular sense that is tacitly accepted by everyone. This is that the concentration of power in Kadyrov’s hands will inevitably lead to Chechen autonomy, which in turn will pose a threat to the territorial integrity of the Russian state. In other words, Kadyrov has managed completely to escape from the Kremlin’s control and is about to create a virtually separate state system that will be connected to Russia only in name.

At this point doubts arise about the purity of the analysts’ approach and whether they have any desire to see things in terms of the value of human life – a criterion to which the liberal camp gives recognition by default. After all, this is precisely what was meant by “Chechenization” – the delegation to the Chechens of the repressive functions that formerly belonged to Russia’s power structures. From its inception to the present day, the republic has been impervious to Russian legislation, though in different ways at different times. It is now as though there had been no liberal criticism of the armed forces and security services at the beginning of the second military campaign: the accepted view is that when the war was being waged by the federal agencies, the repressive violence was systemic in nature and helped to strengthen the public good, but that when the Chechens took over, the whole process fell into the hands of savages and inveterate sadists. 

With the best will in the world, I cannot recall an instance when the leadership of the Operational Staff came to the defence of the victims of killings and abductions, when it attempted to restrict the use of torture or tame the practice of suicide bombing. On the contrary, I remain convinced that the bloodshed and violence have been orchestrated and perfected  under the direct supervision of the FSB. It seems hardly probable that Arkady Yedelev, in his  position as head of “the most important federal structure” in Chechnya, has done much to prevent the assassination of rights activists or investigate cases of disappearance and summary execution. It is no secret that the FSB and the Chechen police use the same methods, which have not changed since the beginning of the second, and even the first Chechen war. The only gradations are to be perceived in the setting of new targets: if you can’t defeat the insurgents, you extend the repression to a wider range of people – their relatives and sympathizers. And so on, ad infinitum.

What causes anxiety to the Russian government’s voluntary helpers is apparently the fact that Kadyrov is killing people not in order to increase the might of the Russian state, but to strengthen his own personal power. The man in the street, however, is bound to feel absolutely indifferent – after all, murders that are “needed” or “unneeded” by Russia, “useful” or “harmful” to it, will be committed in Chechnya no matter who is in charge. Kadyrov’s power is no better and no worse than the power of the  FSB or any other Russian agency, since they are all reinforced by the same conveyor belt of death. And the protection of the public interest, the interest of the state, will not help the lawyers of the  future to obtain a mitigation of the indictment. What matter are not the goals but the methods, and it’s the shedding of blood that counts, not good intentions. Seen with the eyes of the victims, the Russian state struggling for its territorial integrity and Kadyrov’s provincial dictatorship are no different from each other. In both cases the people end up equally dead, and their injuries look the same. And it does not matter at all how the power is divided up, or which of the criminals cherishes a dream of freedom and independence. 

I always read with interest what Soldatov writes, and his analyses of the workings of the power structures are usually spot on. But in this particular analysis he has probably gone a bit too far. When he and other experts from the liberal camp suddenly start talking about the interests of the state, one has a feeling that they are eager to keep the federal centre in control of the nightmare that is happening in Chechnya. The fact that the federal centre is itself both the source and the main custodian of the brutality and repression recedes into the background.

And if the horror is not being wrought by Kadyrov for the good of the state but in order to bolster his own personal power, such a situation can only be viewed as extremely ugly.

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296 responses to “Babitsky on Chechnya

  1. Just free Chechnya from Russian occupation already its 21st century!

  2. Leaving the Caucasus will make Russia stronger

    Russia is no ideal country. Not ideal at all, not even a European one. Yet, even for our non-European, non-ideal country, Chechnya is just too much.
    ………………..

    Today’s Chechnya has nothing to do with today’s Russia. Chechnya is not Russian land. Chechnya is not ours, it is a foreign country; be it under Dudayev or Kadyrov.

    Our own country, however, under its current leadership, is not some antediluvian empire, which needs to hold on to pieces of useless, foreign, and incredibly costly territories, the population of which do not regard Russia as their homeland.

    ***

    What is happening today in Chechnya does not fit into any norms or perceptions of normality that would be generally accepted in Russia. A list of these “Chechen abnormalities” will sound utterly xenophobic: attitudes towards women as to inferior beings; excessive, fanatical religiosity; obsessive veneration of those in power; and the totalitarianism of clan sentiments.

    The question is not, however, about xenophobia. Xenophobia per se, as a natural rejection of those who are alien, is just one of man’s strategies for survival, one method to guarantee one’s own safety and that of one’s family. Xenophobia turns bloody and lethal in the hands of politicians, states, and young do-nothings like our “fascists” and “anti-fascists.”

    Ordinary people in “little Russia” have no hatred towards Chechens. There is distrust, suspicion, a wish to insulate oneself, not to have anything in common. Many are simply afraid. Yet ordinary Russians do not wish Chechens dead or that Chechens be wiped off the face of the Earth. “Leave us in peace, do not turn to us” — that is all.

    It is quite stupid to play the role of a “Big Brother” if there are no brotherly feelings on either side. It is even more stupid to support a whole nation in exchange for sham loyalty. It is utterly unbearable to burden oneself with responsibility for an alien way of life, for something that is unjust and horrifying to us, but quite normal to others.

    As long as Chechnya is marked as being part of Russia, we are all — not just Medvedev and Putin — responsible for Kadyrov with his golden pistol, for the oriental despotism called the Chechen Republic, for the unquenchable fountain of religious fanaticism, for the criminal gangs in police uniform, and for the endless political assassinations.

    What do we need all this for? We have enough problems to solve in our own country, Russia, even without the “excesses” in Chechnya. In our own country, — for the very reason that it is our own, — we have a lot in our powers, we can actually do a lot, if only we had the will (which, for now, we have little). In Chechnya, however, nothing depends on our wishes by definition: it is a foreign country. Why pretend that it is not so?

    ***

    Chechnya needs Russia more than Russia needs Chechnya. Chechnya is using Russia to its maximum advantage as an inexhaustible source of all kinds of resources. Russia has no advantage in using Chechnya for any purpose whatsoever. Chechnya is useless and, in fact, harmful for Russia. It has always been so.

    Consider the strange outcome of Russia’s supposedly victorious Second Chechen war: having vanquished Maskhadov and Basayev, Russia, in the end, lost Chechnya. In exchange for “no war” and “no separatism,” Putin’s regime handed Chechnya over to the total political control of one of the Chechen clans, the Kadyrovites. Chechnya gained informal independence. “Do as you like, we will pay for everything,” Moscow told Kadyrov. “Just do not make a noise.”

    The Russian constitution does not, in fact, apply in Chechnya. Yes, there are all the necessary electoral rituals; criminal, tax, and administrative legislation do formally apply, but they apply only as far as they do not conflict with the interests of the Kadyrovites, pacts between clans, and so on.

    This small country gained a lot, but what did we get in return? Problems, problems, and more problems. Problems in the past, problems in the future. What does Russia need all this for? So that less Russian soldiers would die? That is only until the next war. All in all, the last Chechen war ended in political absurdity: with gains for the side that lost.

    Supporting Chechnya — a foreign country — is a humiliation for Russia. Today’s Russia has ceased to be an empire for the reason that it can conquer but cannot absorb foreign territory, cannot include it in its “macroeconomic complex” on conditions that would be beneficial to itself.

    ***

    The main point to understand is that this is not about Chechnya. This is about the whole of the mountaineous region of the North Caucasus. Everything I said about Chechnya, goes for all of the mountaineous territories: Ingushetia, Dagestan, and the rest. It just so happens that history placed Chechnya at the helm of the “Caucasian Renaissance.”

    It is not our business to stop this process. It is not our responsibility what they are doing in their own country and with each other. It is not our job to reform the mountaineers; their way of life is their own choice. Russia’s task in the Caucasus today is to minimise the damage to Russia from the “Caucasian Renaissance.” Minimising the damage means to leave the North Caucasus.

    Russia can never leave the Caucasus in geopolitical, economic, and cultural terms, neither does she have to. What is more, when the mountain peoples finally gain the right to actual statehood, this will allow Russia to increase the efficiency of its economic and cultural presence in the Caucasus significantly.

    When nations — like people — gain independence, they develop a new, higher level of responsibility for their actions. An independent nation has a lot more to lose than a subjugated people.

    I do realise of course that the political and geopolitical risks of an “exit” would be very high for Russia. Yet the risk of a new Caucasian war is even higher. Bestowing independence on the peoples of the Caucasus, even by forcing it on them, gives us a chance to avoid a new war. Armed militants can fight with whomever they want, however they want, and whenever they want, but states should wage war seldom and with caution.

    The danger posed by Russia’s exit from the Caucasus that is brought up most often is that the North Caucasian republics will turn into fundamentalist Islamic states. We must realise, however, that Russia cannot control the Islamisation of the North Caucasus, and that the attainment of statehood decreases the likelihood of nations to go down an extreme path of development.

    ***

    The mountaineous territory of the North Caucasus is an endless geopolitical provocation for Russia. Yet everything there is in our hands, — not in the hands of the mountaineers. If we fail to do anything, there will be war, make no mistake about it. I feel sad that it is all so predetermined. Things will turn out as they always do, only worse.

    For Russia to leave the Caucasus now would be to do it from a position of strength. Leaving the region after having burned oneself in yet another war would be to show weakness. Leaving the Caucasus now would force the regional elites to act in a responsible manner in the eyes of their people and the world.

    What will the North Caucasus become in the next few years if nothing changes? In population settlements throughout the Caucasus and in Russian cities, we can see the emergence of a new generation of “Caucasian hoodlums,” fed on the Dudayev and Basayev saga. In British and Swiss universities, a “golden generation” of Caucasian youth, eager to fulfil their ambitions, is taking shape. In Russia itself, a Caucasian “fifth column”, contaminated with a sense of national imperative, is flourishing.

    When the time is ripe, these three generations will unite in another ecstasy of national liberation. Given their primaeval greed, passionate rage, and impression of Western weakness, the new generation of mountaineers will want more independence and “native land” than they can swallow.

    Russia, unfettered by nothing but its new grand role in the collapsing West, will respond harshly (there is no longer any other way), with carpet bombing and with hundreds and hundreds of aerial raids. In such a world, there is nothing to stop us. Israel, Europe, and America are already going through the furnace of barbarically defending their eroded interests. Why do we need this on our conscience?

    ***

    To support a foreign country is to sell one’s own people. To feed a foreign country is to neglect one’s own civilisation. Leaving the Caucasus is our responsibility to our own civilisation.

    The ability to contain oneself is the most important ability of countries and peoples of the 21st century. Our planet has become too crowded under the pressure of differing and powerful interests for us to be able to want too much and give in to each and every temptation.

    Leaving the Caucasus would allow Russia to limit itself geopolitically in favour of strengthening its geopolitical might. Only a country which finds itself in the peak of modernity, is capable of such an accomplishment.

    There are many projects and alternatives as to how and when Russia could leave the Caucasus. The responsible part of Russia’s civic society simply needs to take these alternatives under public discussion, evaluate and improve them.

    I think I am aware of all of the main arguments against my proposal: the humanitarian, liberal-democratic, rational-bureaucratic, and imperial-nationalist.

    The counterarguments are various, many of them quite rational, but most of them have one thing in common: none of them want any radical change, neither to the political status of the North Caucasian region, nor to the quasimetropolitan role of Russia in the region.

    Almost all of the counterarguments are, in the end, in favour of maintaining the status quo, with various caveats. Yet the problem is that we cannot afford not to change. We cannot avoid crossing the Rubicon.

    Russia cannot afford not to leave the Caucasus, because our presence in the Caucasus is tantamount to endless conflict. Staying in the Caucasus is equal to a black hole in our economy, responsibility for the obscurantism of others (we have enough of our own), and a perpetual provocation to our “dark side.” The North Caucasus is the most alien and useless part of our country.

    Finally, the Caucasus is a source of many social and political infections, from religious fanaticism to despotism. What may be good for Caucasian villages is bad for Russian cities. The Caucasus is like a weight on our feet. How can we not get rid of it?

    Igor Averkiev, 25 January 2009

    [Translation: Kerkko Paananen]

    Original article in Russian:

    Уйдём с Кавказа – станем свободней и крепче
    Игорь Аверкиев, 25.01.2009
    http://www.pgpalata.ru/reaction/0012

    Leaving the Caucasus will make Russia stronger, wrote Igor Averkiev, chairman of the Perm Civic Chamber, in January 2009. Mr Averkiev’s words turned out to be so inflammable that in April 2009, the prosecutor’s office in Perm found that his article contained calls to extremist action. The FSB has now initiated a criminal case against him. Furthermore, the prosecutor has asked a court to recognise Mr Averkiev’s article as extremist and include the article on the federal list of banned publications.

    Mr Averkiev regards the accusations as absurd. In Russia, the “fight against extremism” is quite separate from actual extremism, he said. “In effect, what the authorities are trying to do is ban normal, honest discussion about Ramzan Kadyrov’s regime in Chechnya, about the future of the Caucasus, and about Russia’s interests in the region,” Mr Averkiev said. Recent events prove, in fact, that Russia has lost control of the North Caucasus, he concluded.

    This is not the first time that Mr Averkiev has been accused of extremism: in December 2007, his article, “Putin is our good Hitler,” published in the Perm Public Chamber’s newspaper, Lichnoe Delo, angered the authorities. Russia’s state censor, Roskomnadzor, found that certain passages in the article could be considered as calls to overthrow Russia’s constitutional order. In the article, Mr Averkiev compared Putin to Hitler before the war. That time, he “got away” with questioning.

    Read on for an abridged translation of Mr Averkiev’s original article, “Leaving the Caucasus will make Russia stronger”…

    • I dont think Chechnya needs Russia, as he argues. Russia has brought nothing but war, misery, and death to Chechnya – something the author “forgot” to mentino. But the larger argument of the article is great, it is time Russia left occupying Northern Caucasus and freed it. Same goes for the occupation of Georgian territories.

      • Russia in the 19 century, it was necessary to do the same was done to Native Americans in America, and now would not be these problems

  3. Why is Babitsky writing under a pseudonym? Not that I blame him, but I am curious, why now?

  4. Meanwhile the murderous hypocrites of the Russian government stoke separatism and ethnic cleansing in Bosnia again

    “Those two words arguably sum up Russian President Dmitry Medvedev’s visit to Serbia this week: the “right” a reference to the Kremlin’s fanning of the flame of Serbian nationalism, and the “power” a recognition of Russia’s deep ties to the fuel and electricity sectors in the Balkans.

    The offer of a strategic partnership, energy deals galore, and a whopping $1.5 billion loan look like pretty conclusive evidence that Moscow is not “out of the Balkans,” as they say.

    Russian energy interests are already legion in the Balkans — Gazprom’s majority stake in Serbia’s oil and gas monopoly NIS, a joint venture to design the South Stream pipeline, Russian interests in Bosnian refining. They are bound to grow after the Russian [co-]leader boasted about the “significant impact” that this week’s deals would have in Moscow and Belgrade.

    And Serbia is conspicuous as the Balkans’ only country with neither NATO membership nor an interest in it (Bosnia-Herzegovina applied for a MAP on October 2). Which explains the choice of Belgrade for the “strategic partnership” and why they’re watching warily in Brussels.

    But the effects of Medvedev’s visit might be felt most immediately in Sarajevo and in the capital of Bosnia-Herzegovina’s ethnic-Serb dominated Republika Srpska, Banja Luka.

    The October 20 meeting went trilateral when Republika Srpska Prime Minister Milorad Dodik, leader of the ethnic Serbs seeking independence from Sarajevo, joined Medvedev and Serbian President Boris Tadic later that evening.

    The Kremlin’s implicit support for Dodik will take some of the pressure off nationalists in Belgrade, who’ve been Dodik’s most vocal boosters outside of his own republic.

    It had been just a week since Dodik called Bosnia-Herzegovina “unsustainable.” He is likely to feel even more emboldened now.

    That could spell trouble for Western diplomatic efforts to resuscitate Bosnia’s constitution, most conspicuously through the “mini Dayton” summit in early October.

    – Andy Heil”

    http://www.rferl.org/content/The_Right_And_The_Power/1857754.html

  5. Well, some argue that Russia should do in the Caucuses do what USA is doing in Afghanistan and Iraq: give them independence but continue troops occupation until they become firmly civilised.

    But the truth is that USA will fail, and Russia will too, if it tried.

    And when USA leaves, Afghan and Iraq will become hotbeds of islamic terrorism. And so will the Caucuses, if Russia ever leaves.

    Thus, it is in Russia’s interest to see USA continue to occupy Afghan; and it is in USA’s interest to see Russia continue to occupy Caucuses.

    It is also in the interest of the Christian and Jewish communities world-wide: if Russia ever leaves Cuacuses, small Christian ethnics like Ossetians and even Armenians will most likely suffer a genocide. If you think that the Chechen terorirsation of the hundreds of little children in Beslan, Ossetia was terrible – the worst is yet to come.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

    The Beslan school hostage crisis (also referred to as the Beslan school siege or Beslan massacre) began when a group of armed Muslim terrorists, demanding an end to the Second Chechen War, took more than 1,100 people (including 777 children) hostage on September 1, 2004 in the town of Beslan, North Ossetia-Alania.

    • The problem with your argument is that Russia and Russians are far more uncivilised than Caucasians.

    • once agin do not compare america’s occupation of afghanistan to Russia’s colonizaition of Northern caucasus. Only reason why Russia is colonizing Caucasus is because of more land and imperialistic greed. I’ve seen numerous documentaries that show how Russian secret police abducts innocent people from their homes and tortures them to death. Its like porgroms once again this time they target caucasians.

    • Putin was responsible for what happened in Beslan much more than the terrorists. Why don’t you look up Beslan on this blog and you will see.

      Most likely suffer genocide? Ingush and chechnyans are already suffering genocide under Russian pogroms and delieberate targeting of civillians. You must not care anything about human rights of for innocent people lives for that matter. Shame on you.

  6. Putin organized the attack on Beslan, Bush in 2001 organized the attack on the World Trade Center in New York … And we all managed world Jewish government … This is called paranoia. Needs treatment

    • No bush did not organize 9/11 idiot. What i’m saying is that Putin’s refusal to negotiate is what lead to the killing of hundreds of children. He refused help from chechen leaders who could negotiate including Zakayev and the president of Ingushetia at the time. Also Putin’s people fired first and stormed the school with complete disregard for lives of children.

      • > What i’m saying is that Putin’s refusal to negotiate is what lead to the killing of hundreds of children.

        No, what lead to the killing of hundreds of children was the Chechen terorists taking 777 children as hostages.

        Just as what lead to the killing of 11 Isreali athletes at the Munich Olympics was not the mistakes of the German police, but the Arab terrorists taking these athletes hostage.

        Don’t confuse terrorism with mistakes on the part of the police, trying to rescue the hostages taken by the terrorists. If the islamic terrorists didn’t take hostages, there would be no victims, would there?

        • I’m not confusing anything. Once again you bring in irrelevant examples from the west. You can not have a single discussion about Russia without bringing in some irrelevant examples from the West. Yes, I’m saying that Putin is directly responsible for the deaths of those children because he refused to negotiate.

          • Are you saying that countries should negotiate with terrorists and hostage takers?

            Many civilised countries refuse to negotiate with terrorists, including Israel:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre
            Israel’s response was immediate and absolute: there would be no negotiation. German authorities rejected Israel’s offer to send an Israeli special forces unit to Germany.

            But the Germans did negotiate. And what happened? All 11 hostages were killed. All of them!

            http://www.slate.com/id/2108861/
            No matter how tempting, governments shouldn’t negotiate with hostage-takers.

            http://samsonblinded.org/terrorism_excerpts/arab_israe_peace_terrorism.htm.
            Israel must not negotiate with Islamic terrorists, not exchange Israeli hostages.

            http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102×474884
            Israel wishes US victory in Iraq; will not negotiate hostages liberation

            • Investigation Turns

              “Savelyev told Russia’s Ekho Moskvy radio station that his investigation was initially based on the premise that the first two explosions resulted from the hostage takers’ homemade explosives. However, he said the scientific evidence simply did not support that scenario.

              He said that in conducting his investigation he found that surviving hostages were talking about explosions in parts of the school other than those referred to by officials.

              Savelyev concluded that the authorities decided to storm the school building, but wanted to create the impression they were acting in response to actions taken by the hostage takers. Thus, Savelyev believes, the military may have initiated the bloody conclusion to the siege.

              “It is known where the shots were fired from,” Litvinovich said. “The first shot was fired from a five-story building at 37 Shkolny Pereulok, the second shot was fired from 41 Shkolny Pereulok. Those buildings are adjacent to the school. Accordingly, it is also known where the shots were fired at. The first shot was fired at the gymnasium’s attic above the hostages, and the second shot was fired under a gymnasium window. However, it remains unclear who exactly fired the shots, but this question is less important. The more important question is who ordered it.”

        • “In the aftermath of the Beslan tragedy, three questions are uppermost: Could the attack have been prevented? Were the terrorists–Islamic insurgents and supporters of independence for neighboring Chechnya–willing to negotiate? And, Who started the final, fatal battle? The answers to these questions present a chilling portrait of the Russian leadership and its total disregard for human life.

          It is now all but certain that the terrorists’ attack on the school could have been prevented. According to internal police documents obtained by the newspaper Novaya Gazeta, the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs in Moscow knew four hours in advance that an attack on a school in Beslan was planned for September 1, 2004. The information came from a man named Arsamikov who had been arrested in the city of Shali in Chechnya. The information, however, was not acted upon.

          Equally puzzling, the terrorists trained for weeks without interference in the woods in the republic of Ingushetia, which neighbors North Ossetia, although a bloody terrorist attack less than three months before, on June 21-22, had supposedly put Ingushetia on high alert. The terrorists traveled unimpeded to the school in several vehicles over roads that were supposedly heavily guarded.

          Perhaps most unnerving, of the 18 terrorists who were later positively identified, the majority were supposed to have been in prison. The second in command, Vladimir Kho dov, a Ukrain ian convert to Islam, had been arrested in 2003 for a rape committed in 1998, but was immediately let go. He then was involved in two terrorist acts in North Ossetia, a car bombing in Vladi kav kaz in February 2004 and the derailment of a train near his hometown of Elkhotovo in May. Despite this, for a month and a half before the Beslan events, he lived openly in his hometown, spending long hours in the mosque. Other terrorist leaders were wanted criminals of many years’ standing who also moved about freely in their home villages.

          Besides these indications that the disaster could have been prevented, there is evidence that the terrorists’ real aim was not to kill the hostages but to negotiate a political settlement of the Chechen conflict. The terrorists demanded that the president of North Ossetia, Alexander Dzasokhov, begin negotiations with them. But the Federal Security Service (FSB, successor to the Soviet KGB) set up a crisis headquarters from which Dzasokhov was excluded, and threatened to arrest him if he tried to go to the school. ”

          Rest of the article you can find on right here on LR

        • Michael Tal,

          let me ask you one question. So you agree and think Putin handled the Beslan situation well? He was right to refuse to negotiate? Just to be clear.

  7. I’m only joking … Putin has previously said that he would not negotiate with terrorists

    • He did exactly that at Beslan. You ought to read more.

    • So funny…

      If you take ALL the things Mr.Putin did…

      Moscow Bombings by FSB to come to power…

      Genocide in Chechniya, Dagestan, Ingushetia

      Nord-Ost, Beslan,Kursk(his reactions mainly), Politkovskaya, Estemirova + 200 other journalists in Russia,,, + total corruption and state propaganda = Putin is MUCH worse than Bin laden,.

      I mean Bin laden has jkurdered around 5000 innocent people… WHile Putin has murdered 300.000 ONLY in CHECHNYA!

      • Yes exactly! it is outrageous that terrorist Putin still gets decent treatement. He is a war criminal who should be tried at Hague court.

  8. I have a different question: in Russia there are many nationalities, such as the Volga River, but the problems arise only in the Caucasus … Maybe it’s not in Russian? In Russia, the largest number of Muslims in Europe and they do not all live in the Caucasus

    • “I have a different question: in Russia there are many nationalities, such as the Volga River,”

      - They are scattered all across the Russia… and they are too few in numbers to withstand Russification.

      ” but the problems arise only in the Caucasus … ”

      - Not only. But Caucasus is the set of other nations living under Kremlin dominance. Kremlins bloody ways are a fault here.

      “Maybe it’s not in Russian? In Russia, the largest number of Muslims in Europe and they do not all live in the Caucasus”

      – The Majority does.

      • > – The Majority does.

        Why do you say such nonsense? The vast majority of Muslims come from east of Volga: Tatars, Bashkirs, etc.:

        https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/rs.html

        Ethnic groups: Russian 79.8%, Tatar 3.8%, Ukrainian 2%, Bashkir 1.2%, Chuvash 1.1%, other or unspecified 12.1% (2002 census)

        And almost half of people of Muslim Caucusus eorigin live in Moscow and other Russian cities, speak only Russian and soon will mix with ethnic Tatars, and assimilate into the Russian culture and ethnos. They will become like Marat and Dinara Safin: real Russians of Tatar/Chechen origin.

      • I know small towns in Chuvashia, where people barely speak in Russian. Chuvashia (for reference) is located in the heart of Russia. And east of Chuvashia is located Tatarstan, in which the majority of the population – the Muslims

    • Because caucasus has nothing to do with russia, it is not russian land nor are people who live there russian. They’ve lived there centuries before russia even existed. They were colonized at the end of 19th century, when Soviet Union fall and most republics got their freedom Northern Caucasus was left out. They deserve their freedom and are right to opposte Russian imperialism and occupation.

      • How about America? Who are the natives here: the Native Americans or we, the European colonists who took away their land?

        • What we are talking is international law. If Russia is legally (or morally) obligated to give independence to Chechnya and to return their land to Chechens – then USA is legally (or morally) obligated to return the Native Americans’ lands to them.

          • Native Americans are not asking for indpendence from United States Northern Caucasians are. So does Russia only do what America does? Russia can not make any decisions by itself? If America nuced itself Russia would too right?

            • > Native Americans are not asking for indpendence from United States

              Sure they are. For example:

              http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/12/lakota-withdraw.html

              Lakota withdraw from treaties, declare independence from U.S.

              Portions of Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota, Montana and Wyoming comprise Lakota country, and the tribe says that if the federal government doesn’t begin diplomatic discussions promptly, liens will be filed on property in the five-state region.

              “We are no longer citizens of the United States of America and all those who live in the five-state area that encompasses our country are free to join us,” said Russell Means, a longtime Indian rights activist. “This is according to the laws of the United States, specifically Article 6 of the Constitution,” which states that treaties are the supreme law of the land.

              “It is also within the laws on treaties passed at the Vienna Convention and put into effect by the U.S. and the rest of the international community in 1980. We are legally within our rights to be free and independent,” he added during a press conference yesterday in Washington.

              The new country would issue its own passports and driver licenses, and living there would be tax-free, provided residents renounce their U.S. citizenship, he said, according to a report from Agence France-Presse.

              The Lakota say the United States has never honored the pacts, signed with the Great Sioux Nation in 1851 and 1868 at Fort Laramie, Wyo.

              “We have 33 treaties with the United States that they have not lived by. They continue to take our land, our water, our children,” said Phyllis Young, who helped organize the first international conference on indigenous rights in Geneva in 1977.

              Means said the “annexation” of native American land had turned the Lakota into “facsimiles of white people.”

              In 1974, the Lakota drafted a declaration of continuing independence. Their cause got a boost in September, when the United Nations adopted a non-binding declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples. The Bush administration opposed the measure.

              • seriously feel sorry for you. you suffer massiave inferiority complex like all russians when they’re dealing with Americans or the West. Native Americans are not the majority of the population there and if there was a reforendum in those states they could not achieve independence. In noterhetn Caucasus if there were a reforendum today i gurantee almost everybody would vote for independence.

                Northern Caucasus has every right to free itself from Russian colonization and brutal occupation. They have suffered enough under brutal Russian invasions and recent genocides and purges.

              • They want nothing to do with Russia, Caucasus is not Russia and never was. Only thing they ask for is for Russia to leave their land alone and let them be. Let Russia mind its own business in their own land and their own home. Why keep Caucasus colonized except for more land? What does Russia need Caucasus for?

          • Does russia not have enough land? Why do they need to colonize Caucasia? It makes no sense except that they are greedy imperialists.

            • > Does russia not have enough land? Why do they need to colonize Caucasia? It makes no sense except that they are greedy imperialists.

              Do Europeans not have enough land? Why do they need to colonize America? It makes no sense except that they are greedy imperialists.

              • you talking about what happened more than 3 centuries ago. Welcome to 21st century once again you cannot answer a single question about Russia without talking about America.

      • We’re not talking about America , we’re talking abou Russia and northern caucasus who deserve to be free from russian occupation. You don’t think Northern Caucasus deserves to be free from Russian occupation?

  9. Hey, Michael Tal, so what’s the point of your PhD from Stanford when your day is consumed using low level grammer and writing third rate drivel about Russia?

    Have you hauled the garbage out of the kitchen for your mom yet or found a job?

    You can be anything you want to make up on the internet, Tal. Here’s a hint though, next time with your next sockpuppet I wouldn’t go for the grandiose bio spiel as it just paints a bullseye on your scrawny back.

    But, please carry on you are entertaining.

  10. Kathy wrote:
    > you talking about what happened more than 3 centuries ago.

    No, most Lakota and other Indian land was taken in the 19th century, a whole century later than when Russia and Georgia colonised Chechnya and the Caucuses:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

    In 1783, Russia and the eastern Georgian kingdom of Kartl-Kakheti (which was devastated by Turkish and Persian invasions) signed the Treaty of Georgievsk, according to which Kartl-Kakheti received protection by Russia. In order to secure communications with Georgia and other regions of the Transcaucasia, the Russian Empire began spreading its influence into the Caucasus mountains. The current resistance to Russian rule has its roots in the late 18th century (1785–1791)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakota_people

    The Lakota signed a treaty in 1877 ceding the Black Hills to the United States, but a low-intensity war continued, culminating, fourteen years later, in the killing of Sitting Bull (December 15, 1890) at Standing Rock and the Massacre of Wounded Knee (December 29, 1890) at Pine Ridge.

    • I already answered that if there were a reforendum they could not get independence.

      Basically I’m not sure what you’re arguing here for, i just want to make some things clear.

      You support Putin overall? You think he is a good leader and a decent human being? You like how he handled Beslan right, governments should not negotiate with terrorists as you said so Putin was right not to negotiate?
      Russia was just in invaiding Georgia?
      Northern Caucasus should be occupied? ‘

    • Geez you are stupid Tal, “when Russia and Georgia colonised Chechnya and the Caucasus”??

      Georgia was colonised by Russia. The Russians broke every provision of the Treaty of Georgievsk. The resulting opression by Russia (including supression of the Georgian Church, laws and language) resulted in multiple rebellions by Georgians in Imereti, Guria, Kakheti, Abkazia, and all points in between.
      The Russian state with its usual feral behaviour used mass rape, murder and pillage to crush the Georgian people.

      It is interesting to note that it only took the western Georgians 2 years (1810 to 1812) to decide that the Moslem Ottoman Turks were better imperial masters than the (supposedly but not in practice) Orthodox Christian Russians, and ask for Turkish assistance to rid themselves of Russian imperialism.

  11. > once again you cannot answer a single question about Russia without talking about America.

    I am an American. Aren’t you? It would be utter hypocrisy for you and me to demand independence for native Chechens without demanding independence for native Americans; moreover, by living on the land stolen form them.

    Do you want to give up your home and to return to Europe, Kathy? Or are you a hypocrite?

    • No, I’m not American. Let them have a reforendum and if Native Americans in any state will have the majorioty of the vote to be independent than yes I would support their independence. But since that is absolutely unlikely, I don’t see the point of discussing it. Once again I told you we are talking about Russia and Chechnya not about America and Native AMericans.

      If America nuced itself Russia shuold too right? Or are you a hypocrite? What is with your idiotic parallels between America and Russia?

  12. I don’t understand what is it with Russians! Anytime who try to discuss Russia with them they have to talk about America or West! I’ve never ever talked to America about America’s policy in Iraq and heard an answer from them “Well Russia is commiting genocide in Chechnya” I don’t get it!

    • Kate,

      1. We talk about America because the law applies to everybody. And the law is based on precedent. If USA sets an international precedent with impunity, then other countries have the legal right to do so as well.

      2. Why do you refuse to talk about you own country of America? Too ashamed?

      3. Why are you, an American, so concerned about what Russia does but refuse to think about what your own country does?

      4. US government demands that Russia behave in a certain way and even threatens to use force. Then shouldn’t USA rectify its own wrongdoings and crimes first? If USA says: “We are guilty of crimes against native Americans and Iraqis, so we are not going to object to similar crimes by Russia” – then fine. But USA cannot demand from others what it doesn’t do itself.

      • First of all I’m not American, I’m from Georgia but I do happen to live in America. I think it is truly a great coutnry where even what is concidered to be the poorest here have decent lives. I notice almost every coutnry that America has halped out has turned into a prosperous, democratic nation. Any coutnry involved with Russia there is suffering, dictatorships and despairs.

        America is far from perfect, but compared to Russia it comes out looking like an angel.

        • > I notice almost every coutnry that America has halped out has turned into a prosperous, democratic nation.

          Iraq?

        • Georgia, for example, only one of the goals of America in her big geopolitical game.
          Georgia use and throw, leaving the care of Russia. That would be fun!

      • What a retard.

        “We talk about America because the law applies to everybody. And the law is based on precedent. If USA sets an international precedent with impunity, then other countries have the legal right to do so as well”

        Wrong as usual. Just because one country does something wrong does not mean others have the right to emulate.

        Your (as usual pathetic) argument is similar to saying “just because he got away with rape makes it ok for everyone else to do it”

        Not surprising to see you have no morals whatsoever.

  13. > You support Putin overall? You think he is a good leader and a decent human being?

    No. I hate him. I hate his anti-democratic and corrupt domestic policies. But I support some of Russia’s foreign policies. Let me remind you that the war in Chechnya was started not by Putin but by Yeltsin back in 1994. And it was Yeltsin who mishandled it, giving rise to a violent wars.

    Chechnya received de facto independence back in 1991, but its President Dudayev used this independence to wage a war of terrorism exactly like Bin Laden wage a war of terrorism on USA. That’s why USA had to conquer Afghanistan. Yeltsin too had to re-conquer Chechnya, but he did it in an incompetent way.

    • Hold on, you waffle on about the war in Afghanistan being illegal, brought about by Neo-Con conspiracies, and now you say that the USA had to conquer it to defeat terrorism?

      Which is it Tal? You are a pathological liar Michael.

    • Yes he is and even though he pretends to dislike Putin he supports is on this blog defending most if not all of his actions.

    • Michael Tal,

      Michael Tal

      Do you know that there Russia has torture and death camps in Chechnya and Ingushetia where they kidnap innocent civillians daily and kill them? What do you think about that?

      What do you say about Russia’s ethnic cleansing of Georgians from Ossetia, do you think that was right?

      • > What do you think about torture and death camps in Chechnya?

        Hate it passionately. This is not the way to deal with any human beings. Moreover, Chechen civilians are Russian citizens and deserve respectful treatment.

        • Yeah ? it is because of Russian government and Putin that those death camps exist, and because of all Russians who keep silent about it.

          • Where did you get all this information? You are what was there in person? I mean, what could be in Russia or anywhere else have a similar story is told about America?

  14. As for stopping terrorism. Russia absolute bull.

    Why did Russia invade Chechnya? Why to support a pro Russian government, and “To restore constitutional order”

    In late October 1992, federal forces dispatched to the zone of the Ossetian-Ingush conflict were ordered to move to the Chechen border; Dudayev, who perceived this as “an act of aggression against the Chechen Republic,” declared a state of emergency and threatened general mobilization if the Russian troops did not withdraw from the Chechen border.

    After staging another coup attempt in December 1993, the opposition organized themselves into the Provisional Council of the Chechen Republic as a potential alternative government for Chechnya, calling on to Moscow for assistance. In August 1994, the coalition of the opposition factions based in north Chechnya launched a large-scale armed campaign to remove Dudayev’s government. Moscow clandestinely supplied rebel forces with financial support, military equipment and mercenaries. Russia also suspended all civilian flights to Grozny while the aviation and border troops set up a military blockade of the republic and eventually unmarked Russian aircraft began combat operations over Chechnya. The opposition forces, who were joined by Russian troops, launched a clandestine but badly organized assault on Grozny in mid-October 1994, followed by the second, larger attack on November 26–27, 1994. Despite Russian support, both attempts were unsuccessful. In a major embarrassment for the Kremlin, Dudayev loyalists succeeded in capturing some 20 Russian Army regulars and about 50 other Russian citizens who were clandestinely hired by the Russian FSK state security organization to fight for the Provisional Council forces.[13] On November 29, President Boris Yeltsin issued an ultimatum to all warring factions in Chechnya ordering them to disarm and surrender. When the government in Grozny refused, Yeltsin ordered his army to “restore constitutional order” by force.

    Since December 1, Russian forces were openly carrying out heavy aerial bombardments of Chechnya. On December 11, 1994, five days after Dudayev and Russian Minister of Defense Gen. Pavel Grachev of Russia had agreed to “avoid the further use of force”, Russian forces entered the republic in order to “establish constitutional order in Chechnya and to preserve the territorial integrity of Russia.” Grachev boasted he could topple Dudayev in a couple of hours with a single airborne regiment, and proclaimed that it will be “a bloodless blitzkrieg, that would not last any longer than December 20.”

    Hmmmm, no mention of terrorism from the Russian government, no, it was to ensure the territorial integrity of RUSSIA

    However, the real terrorism was from Russia (as usual)

    “Human rights organizations accused the federal forces of engaging in indiscriminate and disproportionate use of force whenever encountering resistance, resulting in numerous civilian deaths (for example, according to Human Rights Watch, Russian artillery and rocket attacks killed at least 267 civilians during the December 1995 rebel raid on Gudermes[20]). The dominant Russian strategy was to use heavy artillery and air strikes throughout the campaign, leading some Western and Chechen sources to call the air strikes deliberate terror bombing on the part of Russia.[29] Ironically, due to the fact that ethnic Chechens in Grozny were able to seek refuge among their respective teips in the surrounding villages of the countryside, a high proportion of initial civilian casualties were inflicted against ethnic Russians who were unable to procure viable escape routes. The villages, however, were also heavily targeted from the first weeks of the conflict (the Russian cluster bombs, for example, killed at least 55 civilians during the January 3, 1995 Shali cluster bomb attack). The Russian soldiers often prevented civilians from evacuating from areas of imminent danger and prevented humanitarian organizations from assisting civilians in need. It was widely alleged that Russian troops, especially those belonging to the MVD, committed numerous and in part systematic acts of torture and summary executions on rebel sympathizers; they were often linked to zachistka (“cleansing” raids, affecting entire town districts and villages suspected of harboring boyeviki – the rebel fighters). Humanitarian and aid groups chronicled persistent patterns of Russian soldiers killing, raping and looting civilians at random, often in disregard of their nationality. Separatist fighters, in turn, took hostages on massive scale, kidnapped or killed Chechens considered to be collaborators and mistreated civilian captives and federal prisoners of war (especially pilots). Both rebel and federal sides of the conflict kidnapped hostages for ransom and used human shields for cover during the fighting and movement of troops (for example, a group of surrounded Russian troops took approximately 500 civilian hostages at Grozny’s 9th Municipal Hospital[30]). Russian forces, however, committed violations of international humanitarian law and human rights on a much larger scale than Chechen separatists.[6]

    The violations by the members of the Russian forces were usually tolerated by their superiors and not punished even when investigated (story of Vladimir Glebov serving as an example of such policy). However, television and newspaper accounts widely reported largely uncensored images of the carnage to the Russian public. As a result, the Russian media coverage partially precipitated a loss of public confidence in the government and a steep decline in president Yeltsin’s popularity. Chechnya was one of the heaviest burdens on Yeltsin’s 1996 presidential election campaign. In addition, the protracted war in Chechnya, especially many reports of extreme violence against civilians, ignited fear and contempt of Russia among other ethnic groups in the federation.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War#Internal_conflict_in_Chechnya_and_the_Grozny-Moscow_tensions

    Please stop your lies and hypocrisy “Michael Tal”

  15. Kate wrote:
    > I already answered that if there were a reforendum they could not get independence.

    But first of all, I hope you meant to write “they COULD get independence”.

    Second, who is there left? The vast majority of Natives Americans have died out because of the European colinisation:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States

    Total population : American Indian and Alaska Native: 2.5 million are registered, 1.37% of the US population

    By the end of the twentieth century, Henry Dobyns published his studies estimating the population to be 18 million, which takes into account the mortality rates caused by infectious diseases of European explorers and settlers against which Native Americans had no natural immunity. Dobyns combined the known mortality rates of these diseases among native people with reliable population records of the 19th century, to calculate the probable size of the original populations.[5][6]
    ——————-

    The Native Americans used to be 100% of the population in America prior to the British, Spanish and French colonization and 100% of America belonged to them. Now they are about 1% of the total population and own very little land.

    Because of the European colonization, the population went down from 18 million to less than 2 million. That’s a decrease of almost tenfold. Had Chechens suffered the same 10-fold population decrease as the result of the Russian colonisation, there would be almost no Chechens left, and we wouldn’t even talk about Chechen independence. So, is it Russia’s fault that it brought less death and suffering to the Caucuses natives than did the Europeans to the American natives? Should Americans be rewarded for bringing more death, while Russians punished for bringing less death?

    The fact is that all original Chechen land still belongs to Chechens, while almost all of the original Native American land now belongs to White, Black and Asian settlers/emigrants/colonisers.

    • Michael Tal, I honestly do not undesrtand why you are on here. What is your point? What are you trying to prove? Insetad of arguing about bigget issues we’re discussiong on here you will take something small and irrelevant from people’s posts and ramble on and on about it.

    • And than there was Circassian genocide of course where Russians killed close to 1.5 million Circassians in 19th century.

      Caucasians should be rewarded for putting up a more fierceful resistance than Native Americans! God bless them!

    • Obviously michael forgets little things like the Circassian genocide, and as for bringing “less death” absolute rubbish.

      Many of the first peoples in america were killed by disease true, but it was not a deliberate policy to infect them. Unfortunately it is in the nature of biology that such things happen. It is about as useful as europe blaming the mongols for bubonic plague.

      However, the Russian policy of mass deportations and local exterminations was pretty ruthless even by the standards of the 19th century.

      For example the circassian (Muhajir) genocide:

      “During the last decade or so, especially after the two Chechen wars, pro-Chechen groups started to investigate the history of the Caucasian War and came to label the Caucasian exodus as a “Circassian ethnic cleansing”, although the term had not been in use in the 19th century. They point out that the exodus was not really voluntary but rather was a matter of what is today called ethnic cleansing – the systematic emptying of villages by Russian soldiers[18] and was accompanied by Russian colonisation.[19] They estimate that some 90 percent of the Circassians estimated at more than three million [20] had relocated from the territories conquered by Russia. During these events, and the preceding Caucasian War, at least tens of thousands of Circassians perished in a “programme of forced expulsion, deportation and massacre at the hands of the Russian government”.[21]

      Former Russian President Boris Yeltsin’s May 1994 statement admitted that resistance to the tsarist forces was legitimate, but he did not recognize “the guilt of the tsarist government for the genocide.”[22] In 1997 and 1998, the leaders of Kabardino-Balkaria and of Adygea sent appeals to the Duma to reconsider the situation and to issue the needed apology; to date, there has been no response from Moscow. In October 2006, the Adygeyan public organizations of Russia, Turkey, Israel, Jordan, Syria, the USA, Belgium, Canada and Germany sent the president of the European Parliament a letter with a request to recognize the genocide against Adygean (Circassian) people.[citation needed]

      Although there is no legal continuity between the Russian Empire and the modern Russian Federation and the concept of genocide has been adopted in international law only in the 20th century (ex post facto law), on 5 July, 2005 the Circassian Congress, an organisation that unites representatives of the various Circassian peoples in the Russian Federation, has called on Moscow first to acknowledge and then to apologize for tsarist policies that Circassians say constituted a genocide. Their appeal pointed out that, “according to the official tsarist documents more than 400,000 Circassians were killed, 497,000 were forced to flee abroad to Turkey, and only 80,000 were left alive in their native area.””

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhajir_(Caucasus)

  16. Michael Tal

    So, is it Russia’s fault that it brought less death and suffering to the Caucuses natives than did the Europeans to the American natives? Should Americans be rewarded for bringing more death, while Russians punished for bringing less death?

    And how exactly is Russia being punished IDIOT? The REAL people who are being punished are are Caucasians by Russians. There was massacare of Georgians in 1990s by Russians, there was two brutal wars in Chechnya, ethnic cleansings, deaths all caused by Russia and you are saying that Russia is BEING Punished? And how exactly has Russia been punished because they did not exterminate all people of caucasus? Their punishement is that people from Caucasus would like to be independent from their slave master? SHAME ON YOU, YOU ARE SICK

  17. Kathy,

    Let me ask you a question:

    You say that Abkhazia and S. Ossetia must belong to Georgia because they had been parts of various Georgian kingdoms for centuries. But much of Georgia itself has bene a part of the Russian Empire for centuries too. If Georgians have a right to independence after centuries of being part of Rusisa, why don’t Ossetians and Abkhazi have the same right to self-determiantion? All real humanitarians think so, including Abdrei Sakharov:

    http://www.intertrends.ru/fourteen/011.htm

    Academician Sakharov wrote in 1989: “Like the Soviet Union itself, Georgia is an empire, only a little one. If the Georgian people have a right to freedom from an empire, then so do all other minorities, no matter how small they are.”

    • First of all Georgia existed centuries before such thing as Russia. It was not part of Russia for centuries idiot.

      Who said they don’t have right for self determinatino ? Let all the georgian refugees return to their homes who were forcefully kicked out thank to russia and than let them have a reforendum. You don’t think almost half a million refugees have the right to participate in this reforendum ?

      • Kate, Michael Tal is a typical Russian Imperialist and hyoicrite.

        He really is a vile little weasle.

        • yes Andres! You’re right,., you have pointed that out in your posts and also shown what a hypocrate/liar he is! that’s why he won’t argue with you anymore.

    • Actually Mt Tal, most human rights organisations such as Memorial, HRW, and also UNHCR (and the UN itself) DO NOT recognise the right of Abkhazia and South Ossetia to independance.

      Both territories have been part of Georgia for longer than Russia has existed. Georgians have lived in Abkhazia for all of recorded history, and the same in South Ossetia.

      However due to typical Russian Imperial policy of ethnic cleansing and genocide, carried out by Russian forces in the 19th, 20th, and now 21st centuries, they have been ethnicly cleansed from their ancestral homelands.

      Stop being a sub standard piece of filth Michael.

  18. > And how exactly is Russia being punished IDIOT?

    Tss, tss, you shouldn’t stoop to cheap insults. If you do – I will stop talking to you, like I’ve stopped talking to Andrew.

    What I am saying is that if Chechnya and Ingushetia were taken away from Russia – then it would be a form of punishemnt. How more clear could I make it for you?

    • I don’t care if you stop talking to me. IDIOT.

    • Punishment? IT is not Russia in the first place. You shold be more concerned about Ingush and Chechnyans who are being punished for being well CHECHNYANS and INgushetians, and that Russia is conducting ethnic purges against them!

    • Michael Tal

      Poor Russia they will be punished if Northern Caucasus is taken away from them. I feel so sorry for them, they have conducted genocides in the region and it does not belong to them in the first place but oh why must they be punished? after all RUssia needs more land its such a small coutnry.

      “If Georgians have a right to independence after centuries of being part of Rusisa, why don’t Ossetians and Abkhazi have the same right to self-determiantion? All real humanitarians think so, including Abdrei Sakharov: ”

      Do you support Chechnya and Ingushetians right for self determination?

      • > Do you support Chechnya and Ingushetians right for self determination?

        Stop turning the table on me and keeping on asking me questions without answering mine first.

        tell me,

        Do **you** support Chechnya and Ingushetians right for self determination? If so – why don’t you support S. Ossetian and Abkhazian right for self determination?

  19. > Caucasians should be rewarded for putting up a more fierceful resistance than Native Americans! God bless them!

    Oh my god. You are blaming the victims for “not putting enough fierceful resistance.” In other words, what you say is: “Might is right”. If a people puts up a good fight – it deserves to survive; if not – it deserves to die. That’s disgusting.

    So, Nazi Germany had a right to occupy Czechoslovakia because the Czechs put up no fight? And Stalin had a right to occupy the Baltics in 1940 because the Balts put up no fight?

    In any case, the Native Americans had no chance to fight because they had no horses nor guns. The entire Inca Empire was conquered and destroyed by some 100 Spanish conquistadors, with tens of thousands of Inca soldiers being slaughtered while the Spanish lost few men if any.

    Circassians, on the other hand, were the greatest horsemen in the World and had had guns for many centuries.

    • No, I never said that. All i said is that Caucasians were much better at resisting Russia and put up a fierce resistance and because of that they deserve respect. Why are you putting words into my mouth Idiot?

    • WHere are you getting any of that from? Who said they had any rigth? All I Said was that they should be rewarded for putting up a more fireceful fight! Did i ever say Native Americans did not deserve something?

  20. You are truly disgusting for saying Russia is being punished because it did not exterminate all people of Caucasus! shame on you !

    • Stop demagoguery. Russia is NOT being punished. Chechnya belongs to Russia, and the entire World community, except for Georgia, recognises that Chechnya is part of Russia.

      • oh yeah? you were arguing that it was humanitarian to let people have self determination now you don’t think Chechnya has that same right you were arguing for?

        • If Chechnya becomes independent, then what means the Chechens will live? They have no large industrial enterprises, nor the rich mineral resources, except for a small amount of oil. And Russia is not obliged to feed them on, and to trade with them.

      • Stop the demagoguery, All the world (except for Russia, Nicaragua, and Venezuela) recognises Abkhazia and South Ossetia as being part of Georgia.

      • Georgia has not recognized Chechnya as an independent state idiot

  21. > All I Said was that they should be rewarded for putting up a more fireceful fight! Did i ever say Native Americans did not deserve something?

    If they deserve it, then the Native Americans should also be rewarded the same way? If not – why not? Why don’t they deserve as much as Chechens?

    • Because that was an answer to your question when you said Russia should have EXTERMINATED all CAUCASIANS like America did to Native AMericans (what you claimed falsly) I answered in that logic that Caucasians deserve independence for putting up a more fierce fight! Do you understand now idiot?

      What is your point, what are you trying to prove? You are too afraid to say exactly what you want to say

      • > I answered in that logic that Caucasians deserve independence for putting up a more fierce fight! Do you understand now idiot?

        You say “more”. Fine. Then tell me: more than WHO?

        • i said they put up a more fierceful fight than native americans is that not clear IDIOT! but the whole conflict is different and i dont even think they should be compared but you won’t drop with your native american blabbering.

          • > i said they put up a more fierceful fight than native americans is that not clear IDIOT!

            > > I answered in that logic that Caucasians deserve independence for putting up a more fierce fight!

            So, doesn’t this follow logically that you are saying that Caucasians deserve independence for putting up a more fierce fight than Native Americans?

            What if they DIDN’T put up a more fierce fight than Native Americans? What if they put up THE SAME fight as Native Americans? Would they still deserve independence or not?

            I’ve had enough of your demagoguery. You clearly said that Caucasians deserve independence MORE than do Native Americans, because they “put up a more fierce fight”.

            • you are crazy :) unable to debaet anything you have to get obsessed over irrelevant details to prove what>? you are a psychopath man

        • plus you ommitted very important part from my quote liar: i said

          Because that was an answer to your question when you said Russia should have EXTERMINATED all CAUCASIANS like America did to Native AMericans (what you claimed falsly) I answered in that logic that Caucasians deserve independence for putting up a more fierce fight! Do you understand now idiot?

          • Sorry, I fail to see the difference between what you said and what I see. You said that Caucusus people deserve independence more than do Native Americans.

            But I am not going to haggle over words and keep on blaming you for what you said. I am happy to accept that you just didn’t phrase things correctly.

            Fine. Just let’s get the record straight concerning your REAL view.

            Just tell me: do Native Americans deserve independence AS MUCH as Caucusus people or not? If yes – great. If not – why not?

    • Ok Michael, go back to Russia, so we can give your home to the native Mexicans.

      I am sure you are prepared to make this sacrifice.

      Don’t forget to write.

      • He’s your typical Russian chauvenist imperialists except he is afriad to express it too bluntly, he think he can hide it by pointing out wester “hypocrasy” and always ends up looking like an idiot that he is except a little more cowardly than other russian chauvenists.

  22. > Let all the georgian refugees return to their homes who were forcefully kicked out thank to russia and than let them have a reforendum.

    These Georgian people are colonists, settled in Abkhazia by the two monsters from Georgia – Stalin and Beria. Since you love Circassians and want to reward them, here is what they say:

    http://circassianworld.blogspot.com/2008/08/demographic-change-in-abkhazia.html

    Circassian World

    Demographic change in Abkhazia

    It was no accident that the Georgian newspaper ‘Shroma’ considered Georgian acquisition of the land in Abkhazia and Circassia as ‘one of the most wonderful events’ in the life of the Georgian nation

    In 1921, Abkhazia and Georgia became Sovietized. On 31 March 1921, an independent Soviet Republic of Abkhazia was proclaimed. On 21 May 1921, the Georgian Bolshevik government officially recognized the independence of Abkhazia. But the same year, under pressure from Stalin and other influential Georgian Bolsheviks, Abkhazia was forced to conclude a union (i.e., confederative) treaty with Georgia. Abkhazia still remained a full union republic until 1931, when its status was downgraded, under Stalin’s orders, from that of Union Republic to that of an Autonomous Republic within Georgia. See: Declaration of the Revolutionary Committee of the SSR of Georgia on Independence of the SSR of Abkhazia – 21 May 1921

    ”Abkhazia suffered considerably under Stalin during the 1930s. In February 1931 the status of Abkhazia was reduced to that of an autonomous republic within Georgia. In 1937, the head of the Georgian Communist Party, Lavrenti Beria undertook his ‘anti-Abkhazian drive’, involving the forced immigration of thousands of non-Abkhazians (especially Mingrelians) into Abkhazia. After Beria’s transfer to Moscow in 1938, anti-Abkhazian measures continued under his successor, Kandida Charkviani. The Abkhaz alphabet was changed to a Georgian base. During 1944-45 all Abkhazian schools were closed, replacing them with Georgian schools, and the Abkhaz language was banned from administration and publication. [Potier, Tim. Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia and South Ossetia. A legal Appraisal. Kluwer Law International. The Hague. 2001. p.9.] ‘

    ”In the mid 1950s, in line with the ideological goals of the resettlement policy, a theory was fabricated declaring the true Abkhaz to be an ancient cultural Georgians living on the territory of Abkhazia and describing the modern Abkhazians as those who moved into Abkhazia from the north in the 17th century. The thesis of the resettlement of Abkhazians became part of a racist theory asserting a supposed primordial superiority of the ‘civilized’ Georgians over their neighbours- a theory which dominated in Georgian science and public consciousness. (Krylov, Alexander. [The Georgian-Abkhazian Conflict. The Security of the Caspian Sea region. SIPRI. Oxford University Press. 2001. p. 283).]”

    The Georgian general leading the invading forces in the autumn of 1992, Gia Qarqarashvili, stated on TV that he would sacrifice 100,000 Georgians to kill all 97,000 Abkhazians, if that is what it took to keep Georgia’s borders inviolate’, and a similar threat came from the head of Georgia’s wartime administration, Giorgi Khaindrava, on the pages of Le Monde Diplomatique in April 1993. Goga (Giorgi) Khaindrava, told the correspondent from Le Monde Diplomatique that “there are only 80,000 Abkhazians, which means that we can easily and completely destroy the genetic stock of their nation by killing 15,000 of their youth. And we are perfectly capable of doing this.”

    • So because some Circassian falsly argues that Georgians are colonizers in Abkhazia you think Georgians refugees do not deserve to go back to their homes? why do you never answer questions straight?

    • Well Michael, Georgians have been living in Abkhazia for thousands of years, as is shown by the GEORGIAN architecture and inscriptions of the overwhelming majority of the architectural monuments of the province.

      “Instead of discovering and preserving the history of Georgia, cultural artifacts are being pillaged in the separatist region of Abkhazia.

      The practice of black archeology (excavation for the purpose of robbery) began several centuries ago. However, even now, it is easy to find numerous artifacts from Abkhazia and all of Georgia on the Russian and European black markets. Just recently, Joseph Stalin’s pool table, kept in his villa in Ritsa, was sold to a Russian executive for $50,000.

      Our cultural heritage is being taken away and the process is so irreversible that even Abkhazians have begun to take it seriously. Aleksandr Ankvab, premier-minister of de facto authorities, made statements on this issue and confirmed that valuable museum exhibits, historical monuments and precious icons are indeed being taken away from Abkhazian territory.

      Items found during archeological excavations in Abkhazia, exhibits from the Sokhumi state museum, icons and other units of cultural meaning are being sold in Russia. Some are sold illegally, others “officially”—like the medieval frescos from ancient Georgian churches—under the guise of rehabilitation and maintenance.

      Abkhazia’s museum exhibits are taken to Russia on the basis of an agreement between Sokhumi and Krasnodar territory museums to rehabilitate icons and mosaic coatings. They are taken from Abkhazia for rehabilitation but then they are never returned.

      This comes after the destruction of frescos and Georgian inscriptions in churches. Reportedly, the church inscriptions in Abkhazian villages of Likhni and Ilori have been removed. XIII century Bedia church and the grave of Bagrat III, the Ambari basilica, and the famous “Kelasuri wall” have been badly damaged. In addition, King Tamar’s bridge, the basilica in Gantiadi (II-III century), the Gentsvishi fortress (early medieval period), the Ilori Saint George church dated XI century, the Mokvi church, and the Tsebeldi fortress have been desecrated.

      Russian experts estimate that the budget of illegal archeological business in Russia is tantamount to the budget of the average region. The major portion of archeological findings appear on the black market and then later in private collections. Many artifacts are taken to Europe, as Europeans know where to invest money. For this reason, Moscow has adopted a special law against “black archeology”.

      Georgian culture and frescos are disappearing

      Malkhaz Baramidze PhD, head of the Bronze Era Department of the Archeology Research Center and a member of Abkhazia’s Academy of Science, leads a group working on current, problematic issues in Abkhazia. Baramidze says that this topic is not new and that the materials found during archeological excavations in Abkhazia later appeared in the museums of Sochi or St.Petersburg and that many Georgian inscriptions dating from the early, middle and late medieval period have disappeared. In order to rescue Georgian monuments in Abkhazia the Georgian government asked UNESCO for help.

      “We are often informed that Georgian cultural monuments are damaged on the territory of Abkhazia. However we are not eligible to check this information. In this regard we demanded to implement monitoring of Georgian cultural monuments in Abkhazia in partnership with UNESCO representatives. In 1996 the program was launched. We demanded to involve Murtaz Uridia, one of the best specialists in this group. He used to be engaged in rehabilitation of Bedia church. Though unfortunately the monitoring of Georgian monuments on the territory of Abkhazia was not carried out, as Abhazians did not allow the group to the territory due to the lack of security guarantees,” states Baramidze.

      Georgian cultural monuments in Abkhazia are being badly damaged during the “rehabilitation” activities. Reportedly, the firm of uncertain origin “Baroque” is rehabilitating the churches of New Athens and Pitsunda.

      The Georgian Patriarchy has repeatedly expressed its resentment that the rehabilitation process may cause serious damage to ancient frescos, icons and churches themselves. According to Paata Davitaia, former Minister of Justice of Abkhazia’s legitimate government and leader of the political party “We Ourselves”, many samples of Georgian art were kept in the Sokhumi museum. Icons were there, along with wine pitchers, vases, pots, various jewelry, weapons and other items found in graves during archeological excavations. Currently there is almost nothing left in the museum.

      Davitaia explained that the premier of de facto authority, Ankvab, has made statements about it. He spoke on the TV channel NTV. “Recently studio ‘profession reporter’ made a program ‘Abkhazia’s black archeology’ depicting black archeologists arriving in Abkhazia, hold archeological excavations and take away found masterpieces of art and culture. In this regard Ankvab expressed his resentment and declared that Abkhazians blocked the border and strengthened control. Besides the frescos remained at churches are taken to Russia as if for the rehabilitation works. Then they are taken to various countries from Russia” stated Davitaia.

      According to Davitaia, black archeologists found samples from the antique period discovered by archeologists during decades of archeological excavations in Abkhazia after the cease-fire was removed.

      “Stalin’s billiard, a valuable thing for Georgian cultural heritage kept in Ritsa villa was sold to Russian businessman at USD 50 000. It is note-worthy that the ruins of the ancient city are discovered on Sokhumi coast. At present Black Sea covers the territory. The divers in Sokhumi always studied this ruins and they found many samples of Sokhumi art and life in the sea. Now this process is uncontrolled. Some interested people arrive from abroad, pay money, hire divers and take away anything they find. The local population is also involved in this process. Black archeologists buy things found by local inhabitants- antique pots, vases, gold, weapons, crosses decorated with precious stones,” said Davitaia.

      Black archeology was common even in the Soviet period. Artifacts discovered in Abkhazian territory often appeared in Sochi, Adleri or Tuabse museums.

      “Yuri Voronov was one of the biggest black archeologists. Many conferences are dedicated to his memory in Abkhazia. In Tsebelda he found and took away materials of Romanian period dated A.D. I-II centuries. He carried out excavations without any permission. In 1967 the Academy of Sciences of Georgia sent a special commission to Moscow in this regard. Voronin’s response was -“What’s up? What a noise? All our archeologists sell materials.

      Voronin took away the well-known ‘Primorsk treasure’ from Georgia and sold to Hermitage in St.Petersburg. When we learned about it we tried to find official documents on purchase, but they did not tell us the name of seller. They showed only part of documents listing purchased things,” states Malkhaz Baramidze.

      After the suspension of military activities from 1992 to1993, Madina Ardzinba, daughter of the former separatist leader Vladislav Ardzinba, became involved in the black archeology process. Three years ago, in autumn of 2004, before the inauguration of Sergey Bagapsh, Russian agencies disseminated news that Madina Ardzinba, historian and daughter of Vladislav Ardzinba, was detained at the check-point of the Georgia-Russian border carrying antique and precious items. Aleksandr Ankvab took part in this operation, but at that time, he was one of the opposition leaders.

      Finally, various Abkhazian and Russian websites provide information claiming that since 2001, joint Abkhazian-Russian archeological expeditions have been carried out in Abkhazia. Moreover, it seems that not only Russian but also Greek archeologists are interested in the excavation process. Greek specialists have expressed their willingness to participate in excavations in early 2003. The Russian Academy of Sciences assumed responsibility to finance joint activities. The matter concerned excavations not only at Abkhazian coast, but under water as well. This research was based on the photos made from cosmos.

      As it seems, Russian archeologists do not waste their time and there is nothing wrong with joint archeological expeditions. Nevertheless, the Georgian state should have control over the mechanisms and illegally found as well as legally discovered materials should not be taken to Russia. ”

      http://www.slovensko-gruzinsko-sakartvelo.eu/default.aspx?pg=e0696c9a-77b0-4b91-b9bd-ee236059fa54

    • Abkhazia – Indispensable Part of Georgia (according to historical records)
      May 30, 2009
      Speech of Dr. George Otkhmezuri, Associate Professor, Ivane Javakhishvili Tbilisi State University
      at symposium on

      Georgia at the Crossroads of European and Asian Cultures
      Culture as a tool for the mutual understanding and intercultural dialogue

      The Harriman Institute at Columbia University
      New York, NY
      May 4, 2009

      Abkhazia (Apkhazeti) is a Georgian historical-geographic province like Kakheti, Samegrelo, Svaneti and Kartli among others. Located in the extreme north-west region of western Georgia, it stretches from the south slope of the Caucasian Ridge to the Gumista River (to the north of Sokhumi). An Abkhaz (Apkhaz) denoted a resident of Abkhazia, like a Kakhetian signified a person living in Kakheti, a Kartlian meant a person living in Kartli and Svanetian a person residing in Svaneti.

      Colchis is the name with which the Greeks referred to the state located on the territory of western Georgia in the late 2nd millennium BC and the early 1st millennium BC. The name can be found in Assyrian and Urartian cuneiform inscriptions from the period between the 12th to the 8th century BC.

      Despite the application of the term Lazica in relation to western Georgia, Roman and Byzantine historians highlighted that the Laz were the same as the Colchians. For example, the 2nd century writers Arrian and Claudius Ptolemy mention a geographic entity Lazica located at Nikopsia (what is now Tuapse). Arrian calls it ‘old Lazica’, which is truthful evidence of the presence of Colchian-Laz population on this place from ancient time. The 6th century Byzantine historian Procopius of Caesarea noted: ‘Colchis, which is now called Lazica’, meaning that Lazica Kingdom was an immediate successor of Colchis.

      The etymology of Egrisi, an old Georgian name of western Georgia, is related to the Enguri River. Like Colchis and Lazica, it denoted the whole of western Georgia and its population.

      Opinions differ in historiography with respect to the ethnic origin of the Abkhazs and their original place of habitation. There are scholars who consider them to be north Caucasian tribes who settled on the territory of Georgia (present-day Abkhazia) in the 18th century, while others claim that they are the Abazgs and Apshils referred to in the 1st and 2nd century Georgian and Greek sources and that the Abkhazs as mentioned in the feudal period are the ancestors of contemporary Abkhazs (Apsuas) and that they lived in this region from ancient time. Both viewpoints as versions have a right to existence since there is no direct reference to the ethnic origin of the Abazg-Apshils in the historical records. The only point that can be debated is that beginning from the 2nd century BC to the Antiquity, Colchian culture was spread on the whole territory of western Georgia (this is witnessed by archaeological evidence) and the Abazg-Apshils and Abkhazs living in the Antiquity and the Middle Ages in one part of this territory culturally and historically were Georgians. It is also to be taken into consideration that according to Georgian chronicles, in the 8th century the Abkhazs and Apshils were two different neighboring tribes with their own administrative-territorial units. During the raid led by Murwan the Deaf (735-737), Arab commander-in-chief ‘ravaged the Apshils’ city of Tskhumi’ (Juansher), while at the end of the same century, under the reign of Leon II, of eight principalities making up ‘the Kingdom of the Abkhazs’, the principalities of Abkhazia and Tskhumi were mentioned separately (Prince Vakhishti Bagrationi).

      According to Georgian historical records (there are no other sources) erismtavari (governor) Archil of Kartli, who had no offspring, arranged for the marriage of Gurandukht, the daughter of his elder brother Miri, who had died in the battle against Murwan the Deaf at Anakopia, to King Leon I of the Abkhazs and handed to the latter a crown sent to Miri by the Byzantine emperor. This dynastic marriage led to the unification of Egrisi and Abkhazia. Since then ‘Leon obeyed Archil to the end of his life’. Slightly earlier Leon I had incorporated Apshileti From that time on there is no mention of the Apshils in written records.

      The unification of western Georgia was one side of the process unfolding across Georgia in conditions of struggling against external enemies. Around the same time, Kakheti (780s), Tao-Klarjeti (late 8th and early 9th century) and Hereti (9th century) were formed.

      At the end of the 8th century, the ruler of this united west Georgian state, nephew of Leon I, Leon II took advantage of the difficult home and foreign affairs in Byzantine Empire, set free from its vassalage and declared himself king. The state founded by Leon II, which encompassed the whole of western Georgia and stretched from Nikopsia to the Chorokhi gorge and from the Black Sea to Likhi Ridge, was referred to as ‘the Kingdom of the Abkhazs’ and their kings, as the ‘Kings of the Abkhazs’ in 11th century and later Georgian written sources. It was then that the concept of Abkazia expanded to include entire west Georgia. Abkhazia proper came to denote one part of it. Similar facts have many times been noted in the history of Georgia. For example, in the 4th century, the west Georgian state consolidated on the initiative of the Lazi, was called Lazica; united united under the hegemony of Kakheti in the 780s, in parallel with the ‘Kingdom of the Abkhazs’, Kakhet-Kukhet-Gardabani was called Kakheti Bishopric.

      ‘The Kingdom of the Abkhazs’ is a Georgian, namely a west Georgian state, inhabited chiefly by the Georgian population. This is the assertion of not only Georgian historians, but also of the best-known Abkhaz historians, Z. Anchabadze and G. Dzidzaria.

      Different viewpoints are expressed with respect to the ethnic affiliation of ‘the kings of the Abkhazs’. Some scholars consider them to be Greek since they were descendants of the rulers of Byzantine Empire (archonts), while others associate them either with the non-Georgian Abkhazs or the Georgian Abkhazs. All of these three opinions are propositions. However, it is of note that 10th century Armenian historian Hovhannes Draskhanakertsi (Catholicos John) refers to this state as Egrisi, and the kings – the kings of as the Egrs. Being a contemporary of these events, he thus identifies this state, Egrisi, with western Georgia, and its kings as Georgians. 12th century Armenian historian Vardan the Great calls them descendants of Vakhtang Gorgasali, i.e. for him, these are Georgians, descendants of king of Kartli. It is also to be mentioned that it is not only their ethnic background (though it is also of interest), but their national self-consciousness that is essential for history. Judging by their national self-consciousness and state-building efforts, 9th-11th century kings of the ‘Kingdom of the Abkhazs’, i.e. western Georgia, are Georgian kings of the Georgian state. It is essential that with its language, writing system, culture, religion and policy the Kingdom of the Abkhazs was a truly Georgian state, and its kings – Georgians considering the same features. Their Georgian national self-consciousness and the mode of public thinking can be illustrated by the decision of Leon II, who undertook to move the capital of the state from the fortified city of Anakopia in the Kingdom of the Abkhazs to Kutaisi, one of the ancient Georgian cities and an important Georgian cultural centre.

      The most obvious manifestation of the efforts of the kings of the Abkhazs aimed at building a single Georgian state was an ecclesiastical policy pursued by them after gaining political independence.

      The Patriarchate of Constantinople periodically made up lists of subordinated eparchies, the so-called ‘notations’, which provide information on the large-scale church reforms implemented by the kings of the Abkhazs.

      From the end of the 9th century, the western Georgian ecclesiastical centres (Sebastopol from the 10th century) incorporated into the Patriarchate of Constantinople were no more mentioned in the notations. It was on the initiative of the kings of the ‘Abkhazs’ that these centres withdrew from the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and later united with the rest of western Georgian eparchies under the Catholicos of the Abkhazs. Later, again with the efforts of the kings of the ‘Abkhazs’ and the support of the Mtskheta Catholicate, they became subordinated to the Mtskheta See and united with the all-Georgian Church. After this act, Catholicos Ioane IV of Kartli (1080-1001) was conferred with the title of Patriarch and came to be referred to as the Patriarch of Kartli and the Whole of the East (i.e. of all Georgia) (Parkhali inscriptions). This is how the consolidation of the Georgian Church came to an end, which preceded and prepared grounds for the political unification.

      With the aim of eliminating Greek influence, the kings of the Abkhazs abolished the Episcopal Sees founded by Constantinople and established new, Georgian bishoprics instead. For example, Giorgi II founded Chkondidi Bishopric, Leon III – Mokvi and Bagrat III – Bedia. These bishoprics served as Georgian cultural centres. E.g. Mokvi Church had a rich library. Of the manuscripts surviving to our day, of particular note is an illuminated Gospel copied in 1300 by Daniel Mokveli (Daniel of Mokvi). The manuscript testifies to the high level of writing tradition at Mokvi. Patriarch Dositeo of Jerusalem (who visited Mokvi in 1659) noted that according to the inscriptions on the church, the walls were painted in the reign of King Davit Aghmashenebeli (David the Builder). The well-known Georgian historian, T. Zhordania wrote that Mokvi inscriptions were deliberately erased by ‘ill-wishers’ of Georgia and the ‘ignorant’. There is only one photo negative of the inscriptions commemorating ‘Archbishop Grigol of Mokvi’ that survives. Comments of the Mokvi manuscripts and Georgian historical records preserve names of 12th-17th century Mokvi archbishops.

      If the Kingdom of the ‘Abkhazs’ had not been a Georgian state and its kings Georgian kings, the Church would not have separated from the Patriarchate of Constantinople and if separated, would have established itself as an Abkhazian Church proper instead of consolidating with and subordinating itself to the Catholicate of Mtskheta; Neither Georgian liturgies would have been established.

      Beginning from the 9th century the Georgian language became dominant in the Kingdom of the Abkhazs: Georgian became an official language and the one used by the Church. Inscriptions on churches, stone blocks, bridges and other structures were all made in Georgian. The history of the kings of the Abkhazs Apkhazta Mepeta Divani was written in the Georgian language at the royal court.

      Ancient inscriptions on the territory of Abkhazia date from the 9th century. The disruption of the united Georgian feudal monarchy and the political, economic and cultural decline of Georgia beginning from the 17th century, which followed the Ottoman aggression of western Georgia, is evident in the epigraphic works in Abkhazia. From that time onwards less and less inscriptions were made in Abkhazia. However, neither other language inscriptions were made. According to the historical evidence, liturgy in western Georgia and in Abkhazia in particular was held in Georgian and church donors, architects, masons and the congregation, i.e. the local population belonged to the Georgian ethno-cultural world. This evidence also supports the statement made in the work of the 10th century eminent Georgian ecclesiastical figure, Giorgi Merchule, according to which ‘And Kartli consists of that spacious land in which the liturgy and all prayers are said in the Georgian language’, i.e. Kartli (Georgia) includes Abkhazia.
      Between the 9th through the 11th century the Kingdom of the Abkhazs was together with other Georgian kingdoms and principalities actively engaged in the efforts aimed at the consolidation of all Georgian lands into a single state. Beginning from the 860s, it even played a dominant role. The inscriptions at Armazi, Samtsevrisi, Eredvi, Tsirkoli, Kumurdo and other churches confirm the supremacy of the authority of Giorgi I, Constantine II, Giorgi II and Leon III in Shida (Inner) Kartli and Javakheti.

      Appointed by Demetre III (967-975) as eristavi (governor) of Kartli, Ioane Marushisdze put forth a plan of the consolidation of Georgia, which was realized under the leadership of Davit III of Tao and thanks to the relentless efforts of Ioane Marushisdze himself. Bagrat Bagrationi, Bagrat III (978-1014) was crowned king of the ‘Abkhazs’ and ‘Georgians’ in Kutaisi. The first title which Bagrat received was the ‘King of the Abkhazs’ (978). The name of Bagrat III was added to the Apkhazta Mepeta Divani. By doing so, Bargat III formally confirmed the legitimacy of his royal authority in western Georgia. Upon the death of Davit III (+1001), his titled was extended to include the ‘King of Kartvelis (Georgians)’, and after taking Kakhet-Hereti (1008-1010) he was referred to as the ‘King of the Abkhazs (i.e. western Georgia), Kartvelis (i.e. Kartl-Meskhi), Kakhs and Hers’, title that Georgian kings retained unchanged. The fact that the king of ‘the Abkhazs’ was the first mentioned in the title explains a large number of instances when in foreign sources ‘Abkhazia’ and ‘Abkhaz’ were used to denote ‘Georgia’ and ‘Georgian’ respectively, and the kings of the Georgian feudal monarchy, Giorgi I, Bagrat IV, Davit Aghmashenebeli, Tamar and others were referred to as either Abazg/Abkhaz, or Gurji, or Iberi.

      Across Abkhazia, namely Sokhumi, ran a road which had a great trade and political importance. This is why a single-span bridge was built over the Besleti River, which fully meets contemporary standards of bridge construction and has a capacity to bear a chain of vehicles with a total weight of eight tons. The bridge preserves an inscription glorifying Bagrat III. Similar bridges also survive in other Georgian regions: in Rkoni (Shida Kartli) and Dondalo (Achara).

      Beginning from the 11th century to the early 18th century, before establishing as an independent principality, Abkahzia was incorporated into united Georgia, Imereti kingdom and Odishi principality on various grounds. Abkhaz eristavis and later mtavaris (rulers) were from the Shervashidze feudal house.

      Difficult home and foreign affairs in Georgia created favorable conditions for the settlement of the north Caucasian tribes, the Apsuas. Affected by their raids and the Ottoman aggression, Catholicos-Patriarch Evedemon I Chkhetidze of Abkhazia (1557-1565) had to move the centre of the Catholicate from Bichvinta to Gelati (Bichvinta Church was built under Bagrat III, at the end of the 10th and beginning of the 11th century. The church preserves 16th century mural fragments. In the 19th century, the walls of the church were whitewashed by the Russians).

      Apsua is a name given by the contemporary Abkhazs to themselves. They refer to themselves as ‘Apsua’, their language the ‘Apsua language’, and their state – ‘Apsni’. Until the 17th century the Apsuas lived on the Kuban River in the north Caucasus. According to the 1st century Roman historian, Pliny, the place of living of the ‘Absoe’, i.e. ‘Apsua’ is in the north Caucasus. In the same place is located Absvas regi, i.e. ‘the land of the Apsua’ and their fortress Akva on a map drawn up by the Italian cartographer Jacopo Gastaldi in 1561. A map of western Georgia, made in 1738, already shows Akva, an Abkhaz (Apsua) name of Tskhumi in place of an old Georgian city of Tskhumi (Sokhumi). A map of western Georgia, made in 1738, has Akva, an Abkhaz (Apsua) name of Tskhumi instead of Tskhumi (Sokhumi). Nearby is Tskhumi Fortress (the original of the map is kept in Moscow ЦГВИА ВУА, and a copy in the National Centre of Manuscripts RT IV, #1, Tbilisi). That the initial homeland of the Apsuas was in the highlands, is obvious from folk legends (they had no script of their own). The Apsuas brought their own names, religious traditions and customary laws to Georgia. It is therefore that if before that time nobody distinguished, either from the social or religious point of view, between the land inhabited by the Abkhazs and the population of Georgian and western Georgia proper, in particular, beginning from the 1630s the situation changed markedly. In the 14th century there were no Abkhazs (Apsuas) living in Tskhumi. According to the bishop of Sokhumi Catholic Mission, Pietro Gerladi, in 1330 Tskhumi was inhabited by the Georgians, Muslims and Jews. The Abkhazs may have lived in Tskhumi at that time, but for Geraldi they are Georgians. The works of the foreign writers who were contemporaries or witnesses of these events (Italian Giovanni and Luke, Archangelo Lamberti, Turkish Evlia Chelebi and others) highlight that the way of life, dressing and the spoken language the Abkhazs (Apsuas) was different from those of the Georgians and similar to those of the Circassians.

      In the middle of the 17th century, Abkhazia still included Dranda, Mokvi, Ilori, Bedia, Bichvinta and villages on the other side of the Enguri River. To protect from the intruding Abkhazs, Levan II Dadiani (1611-1657), ruler of Samegrelo, fortified and expanded Kelasuri wall, but the defense of the country under the Ottoman rule and the political aggression, appeared to be more and more difficult. Apart from that, from the 17th through the 18th century Ottoman Turkey tried to incite confrontation between the Georgians and the Abkhazs by spreading Islam.

      This is how gradually the Apsuas occupied part of Abkhazia – a historical Georgian region. Contemporaries called them the Abkhazs because they lived in Abkhazia. According to medieval Georgian Law, foreigners who establish themselves on the Georgian land became local (but not aborigine). It was through Georgian that the name ‘Abkhaz’ entered Russian and other languages.

      After the abolition of the Kingdom of Abkhazia by the Russians (1864), Abkhazia was incorporated into Kutaisi province, first under the name of ‘Sokumi Military Department’ and later, in 1883, as “Sokhumi District’. Thus the name ‘Abkhazia’ (Apkhazeti) was removed not by Georgians, as some scholars claim, but by the Russians. The Georgians, on the contrary, restored the name Abkhazia in the Georgian Democratic Republic (1918-1921), an independent state of the Georgians established after the fall of the empire (1918) and in line with the constitution of the country, granted a status of autonomy to it. The autonomy was recognized by the government of the Russian Soviet Federal Socialist Republic (RSFSR) under the Treaty of 7 May 1920.

      After the establishment of the Soviet rule in Georgia (1921) the status of Abkhazia was changed several times. On the request of Abkhaz Bolsheviks and with the support of Georgian Bolsheviks and Soviet Russia, the Soviet Socialist Republic of Abkhazia was declared in 1921. In November of the same year it was recognized as a republic associated with Georgia. Under the constitution of the Soviet Union of 1924, Abkhazia was an Autonomous Republic of Georgia, which is how it is referred in all other documents. This status was finally formalized in 1931, at the 6th Assembly of the Abkhazian Councils.

      It is also to be noted that the area taken up by Abkhazia was less than required for granting a status of an autonomous republic under the Soviet legislation. Therefore, District of Samurzakano-Gali, fully inhabited by the Georgians, was added to Abkhazia.

      Protests voiced by the population have not been taken into account. It is also of note that the Apsuas (the Abkhazs) always made the minority of the Abkahzian population, which is supported by the data official census. According to the final census (1989), they accounted for 17-18% of the population of Abkhazia, and Georgians – 45%. The rest part of the population was made up by the Greeks, Russians, Armenians and others. Between 1918 and 1920 and towards the end of the 1980s anti-Georgian demonstrations, provoked by the Russians, were held, which ultimately led to the establishment of the separatist regime with the immediate intervention of Russia. The Russian ‘role’ once again became apparent during the August 2008 events.

      Today the Abkhazs are an established nation, who have no other country apart from Georgia (Abkhazia proper). It goes without question that living in Abkhazia together with the Georgians is their legitimate right and that their interests and rights (national, political and social) must be protected. However, it is also to be highlighted that Abkhazia is an indispensable part of Georgia and the only homeland to the 250 thousand Georgians against whom genocide was perpetrated and who had to flee their homes.

      Despite the tragedy that happened, the Georgians and the Abkhazs can still live together. The best way would be to start negotiations without mediators and work out principles and criteria, equally acceptable both to the Georgians and the Abkhazs, based on which normal living conditions could be restored in Abkhazia. Everyone must understand that Abkhazia is Georgia and that the Georgian nation will never reconcile with the withdrawal of Abkhazia from the jurisdiction of Georgia.

      http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11940&Itemid=132

  23. http://circassianworld.blogspot.com/2008/08/demographic-change-in-abkhazia.html

    Circassian World

    Demographic change in Abkhazia

    (continued)

    If you were an Abkhazian, would you welcome back your former Kartvelian neighbours, knowing how many of them think Abkhazians should not be in Abkhazia?

    And it was no accident that the Abkhazian research-institute and archives were torched (after cherry-picking) in Nov 1992 — it was done to try to erase documentary proof of the Abkhazians’ presence over the centuries (not to say millennia) on Abkhazian soil.

    Also, when it comes to the fate of refugees and their right to return home, what is to be said of those Abkhazian descendants (over 300,000) of those more or less forced to leave Abkhazia, when it was populated virtually exclusively by Abkhazians, in 1864?

    For some 60 years Abkhazia was forced to accept the unwelcome status of being a mere autonomous republic with Soviet Georgia (thanks to the ruling of the Georgian dictator Stalin – ‘Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili’). For daring to defend our interests in the face of Georgian nationalist aggression, we were subjected to 14 months of savagery.
    ————————-

    • Michael Tal,

      What documents ? Abaza and Apsu did not have an aplhabet until 20th cenury. Yes around 300,000 thosuands georgians were forced out of their homes. So according to you they don’t deserve to go back to their homes?

      • > Abaza and Apsu did not have an aplhabet until 20th cenury

        Until 20th cenury? Why lie?

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazian_language

        Abkhaz has had its own adaptation of the Cyrillic alphabet since 1862. The earliest extant written records of the Abkhaz language are in the Arabic alphabet, recorded by the Turkish traveller Evliya Celebi in the 17th century. Abkhaz has only been used as a literary language for about 100 years. During Stalin’s reign Abkhaz was banned as a literary language.
        ———————-

        Why do you insist on perpetuating the crimes of Stalin-Dzhugashvili and Beria?

        • either way i said 20th century but it was in second part of 19th century. What crimes am i perpetuaiting? what are you talking about? it is a well known fact that Apsu did not have an alphabet until they adopted cyrilic as you said in 1862.

          stalin and beria killed Thosuands of innocent Georgians by the way, they are a shame to Georgian Nation.

        • G. Paichadze, Institute Of History, Georgian Academy of Sciences

          “In 1866 Abkhazia was swept over by a large-scale uprisal of the population outraged by the arbitrary rule of Russian officials, unseemly behavior of the clergy, etc. However, the main reason of this popular outburst was the preparation for the reform of the peasantry status which began in Abkhazia in 1866. Early in August of that year the Governor-General of Kutaisi Prince D.I.Svyatopolk-Mirskiy arrived in Abkhazia with substantial force and on August 3 promulgated an ultimatum demanding that the insurgents should lay down the arms. The ultimatum worked and the insurgents surrendered to the Russian troops.

          The policy of relocation of the population played a leading role in the strategy of the establishment of the Russian rule in Abkhazia. In 1867, in the wake of suppression of the uprisal of 1866, all the Abkhazian population was pronounced “guilty owing to their inadequate political reliability”. A reaction to this was a wave of the “mahajirism”, i.e. en masse relocation of Abkhazians to Turkey. “Mahajirism” as a movement was inspired by the pro-Turkish-minded part of the population of the one hand, and resulted from the policy of encouragement it received from the Russian authorities.

          Leading public figures and social activists I.Chavchavadze, A.Tsereteli, S.Meskhi, J.Gogebashvili and others regarded this movement as a national tragedy of the Abkhazian people.

          In 1883 Abkhazia – the Sukhumi Military Department – was restructured again into the Sukhumi District and was joined to the Kutaisi Gubernia and placed under the control of its Governor- General. This district now comprised 4 sections: the Gudauta sector with the center in Gudauta, the sector with the center in Sukhumi, the Kodori sector with the center in Ochamchiri and the Samurzakano sector with the center in Okumi.

          The Russian Empire encouraged “mahajirism” with a view to having as much land vacated in Abkhazia as possible in preparation of the peasantry reform, so that the freed serf should come here and colonize the vacated territory.

          The development of Abkhazia was also done for military strategic reasons, as well as in the interests of the budding Russian capitalism. Understandably, Abkhazia was specifically attractive as a subtropical area where health resorts could be established. By 1900, the Russian Imperial Government owned over 480,000 desyatinas of land there and granting big land areas to Russian landowners, high ranking military officers and civil officials came to be largely practiced. “

          • CONT:

            Typically, Russian and sometimes also Bulgarian, German, Greek, Estonian and other settlers were allocated 15 desyatinas of land per household, whereas Abkhazians and local Georgians were given only 5 desyatinas. On top of that, the peasants, living beyond the river Inguri had no right to move over to Abkhazia.

            St. Petersburg strove to Russify Abkhazians and put them against the Georgians, which the Russian authorities did not choose to conceal and stated openly and in unambiguous terms.

            However, this policy pursued by the Imperial Government with a view to instigating hostility and strife between the Abkhazians and the Georgians was deplored by advanced Abkhazian, Georgian and Russian intellectuals. In Abkhazia, democratically-minded intelligentsia openly opposed the colonialist policy of the Russian Tsarism and thus contributed to thus contributed to strengthening Georgian-Abkhazian relations that have a long history.

  24. Look at the demographics graph:

    http://www.c-rDOTorg/our-work/accord/georgia-abkhazia/images/lggraph2.gif

    You will see that Abkhazians were the majority of the population, and there were more than twice as many Abkhazians as Georgians in 1897. Georgians surpassed Abkhazians in numbers only around 1920, and then starting with 1939, the number of Georgians skyrocketed through the roof due to Stalin and Beria’s politics of colonization.

    • Abkhazia has been historical part of Georgia since the time of Colckhs! are you willing to debate that is not historical Georgian Land?

      You’re confused Abkhazia has always been historical part of Georgia. Ingushetia, Daghestan, and Chechnya on the other hand have nothing to do with Russia., WHy don’t you devote yourself to that a much more just cause than falsly claiming that georgians “colonized” abkhazia.

      • > Abkhazia has always been historical part of Georgia.

        Wrong. Read what I already posted:

        http://circassianworld.blogspot.com/2008/08/demographic-change-in-abkhazia.html

        Circassian World

        Demographic change in Abkhazia

        ”In the mid 1950s, in line with the ideological goals of the resettlement policy, a theory was fabricated declaring the true Abkhaz to be an ancient cultural Georgians living on the territory of Abkhazia and describing the modern Abkhazians as those who moved into Abkhazia from the north in the 17th century. The thesis of the resettlement of Abkhazians became part of a racist theory asserting a supposed primordial superiority of the ‘civilized’ Georgians over their neighbours- a theory which dominated in Georgian science and public consciousness.
        —————————

        • Wrong? Well if you know so much about the history of Abkhazia and argue that it has not been part of Georgian than answer my simple questions instead of providing me with a link written by History revisionists in order to justify mass forceful expulsion of Georgians from their native land.

          Why are all churches and Historical monuments in Abkhazia of Georgian origin? Why does all ancient churches in Abkhazia has GEORGIAN INSCRIPTIONS ON THEM? ALl churches dating from 4th century and there are a lot of them are of Georgian origin can you answer why? Why has Abkhazian church part of GEORGIAN PATRIARCHY SINCE 9th CENTURY? WHY WAS ABKHAZIA ALWAYS RUILED BY GEORGIAN RULERS AND NOBILITY SINCE ITS EXISTANCE? how could an independent state be ILLITERATE for centuries? answer those questions before you make false claims about abkhazia. You have no idea, go learn history and than come back idiot.

          • ALSO:

            ancient monuments and architechture in abkhazeti are of georgian origin, have georgian architecture style, and were built by georgians abkhazebi. this leads to a logical conclusion has historically been part of georgian kingdom.

            Examples: Pitsunda, Bichvita, Pitiunt (4th and 5th centuries churches all georgian)
            Gagra church (6th century) also a georgian church.
            The domed church at Dranda (7th c) also georgian
            Canaanite Church in Anacopia and the one in the village of Lykhni (both from the turn of the 9th to the 10th century), the cathedral at (the 60s of the 10th c.). also georgian.

            all church nams are also of georgian origin, using georgian toponyms: Mzymta (mzemta – mze=sun, mta=mountain), Ilori, Bichvinta, Tskhumi. These terms are mentioned in historic Georgian documents, conserved in WRITING.

            Now explain why that is if abkhazia has been an independent state idiot!

  25. For some reason, the blog doesn’t allow me to post the link without putting “DOT” there.

    • Do you deny the right of 300,000 georgian refugees to go back to their homes? which by the should not even be mentioned but since you brought it up it is their historical native land and yet you don’t think they have every right to RETURn?

  26. Abkhazia preserves numerous remnants of old buildings, including Bronze Age tombs, cities, fortresses, bridges, palaces, churches and monasteries. It has 77 listed monuments dating from various periods.

    Some churches are adorned with splendid sculptures, mural and mosaic paintings, which are the earliest samples of Christian art in the entire South Caucasus.

    The cultural heritage of Abkhazia dates back to the earliest stages of human history. Of particular note are highly interesting works of the megalithic architecture of the Bronze Age, dolmens (e.g. Eshera dolmens daring from the third millennium BC).

    Yet most remarkable is the architectural and artistic heritage surviving from the Christian period, which is represented by numerous churches, monasteries, palaces and fortresses. According to historical sources, Abkhazia played an outstanding role in founding a united Georgia Kingdom, which is further supported by cultural heritage monuments.

    All forms of art are presented: architecture, mosaics, murals, manuscript illumination, stone reliefs, repoussé art, embroidery etc.

    Throughout its long history, Abkhazian art followed the main trends and artistic traditions characteristic of all Georgian regions. Yet, at the same time it revealed some of the original traits, which were further developed through close cultural relations with Byzantium. That the Abkhazian Church was under the jurisdiction of Constantinople till the late tenth century is natural. According to a widely spread assumption, the architecture of Abkhazia has more in common with Byzantine architecture than with Georgian architecture proper. This assumption is not correct. Everything proves the opposite. Unfortunately these issues have been tabooed during the Soviet time, while later it became impossible to conduct proper research in Abkhazia – we remain unaware of the state of preservation of these monuments. Anyway, the differences have been deliberately highlighted and the similarities neglected.

    The earliest Christian churches in Abkhazia date from the fourth-fifth centuries. They belong to a basilica type. Presumably built with timber ceilings, these buildings must have been erected to the designs ‘imported’ from Greco-Roman world. The impact of the East-Roman and early Byzantine architecture is clearly visible, but already from the late fifth century the local artistic and construction traditions prevail. This is in line with the main trends of development of contemporary Georgian Christian architecture in general. This unity may be clearly seen in the typology, construction techniques and material, proportions, ornamental types, etc. For example, the Church in Old Gagra, dated to the sixth century, is a rare type of the so called ‘three-church basilica’ which is attested only on the territory of Georgia, especially in the East regions of Kartli and Kakheti. There are striking similarities between Gagra church and the contemporary architecture of historical Kakheti, East Georgia, in terms of the character of masonry, proportions etc. It appears as if the structure has been transferred straight from Kakheti. Very similar to the Kartalinian hall-churches is a 6th century, single-nave church in the Anakopia fortress.

    This particular type of a ‘three-church basilica’ can also be seen in the following centuries (e.g. Abaanta 6th century, Ambara, 8th-9th centuries, Qiachi – 9th century, etc) providing further evidence pointing to the tight links and coomon traditions in the architecture of different regions of Georgia (e.g. a 6th century three-nave basilica at Tsandripsh (Gantiadi), which had vaulted ceilings distinct from flat timber ceilings characteristic of Byzantine basilicas).

    Even the most ‘Byzantine’ examples, such as the Church of the Virgin at Dranda (8th c.) reveal many features characteristic of the architecture of the central regions of Georgia, namely of the famous church of the Holy Cross at Mtskheta.

  27. Look, Kathy, I appreciate that, unlike most others here, you try to engage in an honest and responsible discussion, even though I resent that you sometimes resort to ad hominem insults.

    I greatly admire ethnic Georgians and wish Georgia all the best. I hope some day they will get a decent President.

    I hope that there will be found a solution that will satisfy both sides – Georgians and Abkhazians/Ossetians. A solution that will guarantee that there will be no more murders and death on either side.

    However, I don’t see how USA, being itself guilty of various crimes discussed above, has the right to teach Russia how to behave. Certainly, until USA and NATO countries recognise that Kosovo should belong to Serbia, they cannot insist that Ossetia and Abkhazia should belong to Georgia. And if Georgia insists on joining NATO, it too cannot expect to get Ossetia/Abkhazia back until NATO doesn’t return Kosovo to Serbia.

    I also find it high hypocrisy for you and other Georgians to demand independence of Chechens from Russia, but deny independence of Abkhazis from Georgia. It is mind-boggling that Georgia is the ONLY country on the Planet that recognises (since 1991!) Chechnya’s independence, while denying independence to Ossetia/Abkhazia.

  28. > WHY WAS ABKHAZIA ALWAYS RUILED BY GEORGIAN RULERS AND NOBILITY SINCE ITS EXISTANCE?

    For the same reason why Georgia was ruled by Russian rulers for almost 2 centuries: Georgia was an empire just like Russia, and occupied other minorities:

    http://www.intertrends.ru/fourteen/011.htm

    Andrei Sakharov wrote in 1989: “Like the Soviet Union itself, Georgia is an empire, only a little one. If the Georgian people have a right to freedom from an empire, then so do all other minorities, no matter how small they are.”

    • You have trouble reading don’t you Michael, the real Abkhaz are like Mingrelians, Gurians Imeretians, Kakhetians etc.

      The Apsu (who now call themselves Abkhazians) are relatively recent immigrants from the north Caucasus who began immigrating into Georgia during the period of Ottoman occupation due to the Ottomans campaigns against the Christian Abkhaz.

      This is all well documented fact. However, the Apsua and Georgians BOTH have the right to live in Abkhazia, the Georgians as the ORIGINAL indigionous population, and the Apsua due to several centuries of living there.

      Unfortunately for your claims from “Circassian world” they are not borne out by the archaeological findings, especially the Georgian churches and fortresses which pre date by several centuries anything built by the Apsua (which is little enough anyway to be quite blunt).

      Tell me Michael, how do you explain the Georgian inscriptions in the 8th century Churches in Abkhazia?

    • Always as in for more than 3000 years idiot No NOT LIKE RUSSIA

      • > WHY WAS ABKHAZIA ALWAYS RUILED BY GEORGIAN RULERS AND NOBILITY

        What do you mean by “always”? Leaving aside ancient past, for 2 centuries until 1991, Abkhazia was ruled by RUSSIAN rulers, just as Georgia itself. Under the Russian Emperors, it was a sovereign administrative province of Sukhum:

        http://www.raremaps.ru/img/raremaps_ru/SborgubRUS.jpg

        Under the Bolsheviks it was a sovereign republic until 1931, when the Georgian monster Stalin “gave” it to the Georgian administrative control. But still, both Georgia and Abkhazia were not independent states. They were part of Russia.

        > Now explain why that is if abkhazia has been an independent state idiot!

        Exactly. Neither Abkhazia nor Georgia were independent. They were ruled by Russia. Should they continue to so?

  29. It is noteworthy that this spiritual and cultural unity was declared as early as the 8th century by one of the most famous and outstanding clergyman, St Grigol Khandzteli (Gregory of Khandzta), whose monastic activities spread across Georgia notwithstanding the existing political and administrative border restrictions, including in Abkhazia. According to him ‘And Kartli [Georgia] consists of that spacious land in which the liturgy and all prayers are said in the Georgian language.’

    The aforementioned holds true for Abkhazia as all the inscriptions whether made on stone, on metal or on paintings, are written in the Georgian language with ancient Georgian script asomtavrulii. This is very important for the genuine understanding of the situation on this land. Bedia Cathedral, e.g. has over eleven stone and fresco inscriptions containing numerous references to historical characters. There are many lapidary inscriptions on 11th century Ilori Church, one of the most respected holy sites in West Georgia. Of many fresco inscriptions surviving on Church of the Koimesis at Lichne, an 11th century inscription that mentions the apparitions of comet in 1066 is more remarkable. Inscriptions (mostly Georgian) on the walls of historical buildings or in the mural decorations bear witness to many noteworthy historical events, mention secular persons and clergymen.

    Georgian restorers had for many years conducted conservation work on various monuments. We now need help and support in preserving this precious heritage, the state of which, most regrettably, remains unknown to us.

    Everything that preserves from the past on the territory of Abkhazia sends and confirms one major message: by sharing the achievements of the neighboring peoples and combining them with their own initiatives and artistic perceptions, local inhabitants, disregarding their provenance, served as co-creators of the intrinsically diverse, but homogenous Georgian culture, even when due to various reasons, our small motherland was disintegrated and torn into peaces.

    Samples of architecture, painting, metalwork and inscriptions are eloquent witnesses of all these. A common cultural horizon, common weltanschauung and common artistic mentality.

    At this stage, it is more important to reveal and demonstrate unity and similarities rather than highlight differences. This statement can be supported by the well-known appeal made by an Abkhazian noblemen to the Russian Emperor in 1916: ‘We believe that the Georgians, related to us historically and through various circumstances, will ensure in all possible way the preservation of our national identity. We do understand that only the union with the Georgians will save us from numerous calamities and therefore in all circumstances and activities we are and will be together.’

    http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11943&Itemid=105

  30. Kathy,

    You and others insist that Russians are “genocidists” and all Caucuses people hate them and love Georgians.

    And yet, Ossetians and Abkhazis are so afraid of Georgians that they are willing to be under the Russian rule, just to avoid Georgian rule. That’s what happened in 1920 or so, when Georgia was temporarily independent and when it had to commit genocide against Ossetians because they wanted to belong to Russia. This is what happened from 1989 and on: as soon as the Ossetians and Abkhazis saw Georgia moving in the direction of independence from Russia, they demanded to be re-allocated from Georgian rule to the Russian rule.

    Explain to me: if Russians are such bad guys and Georgians are such good guys, then why do Caucuses peoples – Ossetians and Abkhazis (most of whom are Muslims!) – love Russia and hate and fear Georgia? Why?

    • Expalin to me why all of Northern Caucasus hates Russia first.

      • > Expalin to me why all of Northern Caucasus hates Russia first.

        Gladly: because Russia occupied them against their will back in the 18th – 19th century and made them part of the Russian Empire.

        Now please answer my question above.

        • I believe Andrew has already answered that question. First of all Ossetians do not hate Georgians there are more Ossetians living outside of Ossetia in other parts of Georgia than in Ossetia. As for what happened in Abkhazia the ethnic conflict between Georgian abkhaz and Apsu, Abaza started by Russia. Russia promised Apzu/Abaza independence but do you know on expense of what? massacare of thousands of Georgians and forced expulsion of more than 250,000 thosuands Georgians.

        • And you insist that they remain so don’t you Michael.

          After all, your anti-moslem bias is plain for all to see.

          Funnily enough the Chechens are very recent converts to Islam, around the 18th century in fact, many scholars believe it was coming into contact with the genocidal Tsarist regime that pushed them to convert in a desperate attempt to gain aid from the Ottomans. Other scholars think it was forced upon them.

    • explain to me why russia committed genocide in chechnya? explain to me why russia has torture and death camps, explain to me why russia recognized abkhazia and ossetia but not NORTH ossetia or Chechnya and Ingushetia? you explain first

    • Actually many Abkhaz hate and fear Russia more than Georgia, and it is the same with South Ossetians. Just look at Dimirty Sanakoyev, former PM of South Ossetia who sees the only way to protect the culture of Ossetians from russification is to be part of Georgia.

      However, both Abkhazia and South Ossetia are run by apartheid style criminal gangs loyal to Moscow. They are the direct benificiaries of ethnic cleansing.

      • yeah, exactly andrew. abkhazia today is a aparthaid nazi state thanks to russia. georgians and Akbhazians lived in peace for centuries before Russia started stirring up ethnic conflicts between them to divide and conquer.

  31. explain why Russia ethnically cleansed out around 130,000 thosuands Georgians from north Ossetia in 2008?? can you explain?

  32. “Georgia was an empire just like Russia, and occupied other minorities” you are either crazy or just ignorant. Georgia is not claiming any land that does not historically belong to Georgia unlike russia

  33. > Andrei Sakharov wrote in 1989: “Like the Soviet Union itself, Georgia is an empire, only a little one. If the Georgian people have a right to freedom from an empire, then so do all other minorities, no matter how small they are.”

    > “Georgia was an empire just like Russia, and occupied other minorities” you are either crazy or just ignorant.

    Isn’t that what Sakharov said?

    • What did Sakhav say? I told you many times once tall he refugees are returned to their homes than the regions can have a reforendum to decide if they want independence or not. Are you saying those refugees do not deserve to return to heir homes? What is your point?

      • > What did Sakhav say?

        Andrei Sakharov wrote in 1989: “Like the Soviet Union itself, Georgia is an empire, only a little one. If the Georgian people have a right to freedom from an empire, then so do all other minorities, no matter how small they are.”

        • So Michael, how do you feel about the ongoing campaign of opression, including the banning of the Georgian language from schools in the Abkhazian region of Gali, that is 95% ethnic Georgian?

  34. Your knowledge of history of Caucasus shows that you are ignorant.

    You falsly claim that Georgians are colonizers of Abkhazia, which is not supported by any archeological or historical evidence. Than you say that Georgia is just as imperialistic as Russia which is also completely not true and simply ridiculous.

    Learn something about Caucasus before commenting, or stick to other topics like talking about how great life is in Russia, or how the economy is blooming but leave Caucasus alone. You clearly know nothing about it.

    • > You falsly claim that Georgians are colonizers of Abkhazia, which is not supported by any archeological or historical evidence.

      What “archeological evidence” do you need? This colonisation happened in the 1930s-1980s. Read what what I posted:

      http://circassianworld.blogspot.com/2008/08/demographic-change-in-abkhazia.html

      Circassian World

      Demographic change in Abkhazia

      It was no accident that the Georgian newspaper ‘Shroma’ considered Georgian acquisition of the land in Abkhazia and Circassia as ‘one of the most wonderful events’ in the life of the Georgian nation

      In 1921, Abkhazia and Georgia became Sovietized. On 31 March 1921, an independent Soviet Republic of Abkhazia was proclaimed. On 21 May 1921, the Georgian Bolshevik government officially recognized the independence of Abkhazia. But the same year, under pressure from Stalin and other influential Georgian Bolsheviks, Abkhazia was forced to conclude a union (i.e., confederative) treaty with Georgia. Abkhazia still remained a full union republic until 1931, when its status was downgraded, under Stalin’s orders, from that of Union Republic to that of an Autonomous Republic within Georgia

      ”Abkhazia suffered considerably under Stalin during the 1930s. In February 1931 the status of Abkhazia was reduced to that of an autonomous republic within Georgia. In 1937, the head of the Georgian Communist Party, Lavrenti Beria undertook his ‘anti-Abkhazian drive’, involving the forced immigration of thousands of non-Abkhazians (especially Mingrelians) into Abkhazia. After Beria’s transfer to Moscow in 1938, anti-Abkhazian measures continued under his successor, Kandida Charkviani. The Abkhaz alphabet was changed to a Georgian base. During 1944-45 all Abkhazian schools were closed, replacing them with Georgian schools, and the Abkhaz language was banned from administration and publication.

      ”In the mid 1950s, in line with the ideological goals of the resettlement policy, a theory was fabricated declaring the true Abkhaz to be an ancient cultural Georgians living on the territory of Abkhazia and describing the modern Abkhazians as those who moved into Abkhazia from the north in the 17th century. The thesis of the resettlement of Abkhazians became part of a racist theory asserting a supposed primordial superiority of the ‘civilized’ Georgians over their neighbours- a theory which dominated in Georgian science and public consciousness.
      ——————-

      Look at the demographics graph:

      http://www.c-rDOTorg/our-work/accord/georgia-abkhazia/images/lggraph2.gif

      You will see that Abkhazians were the majority of the population, and there were more than twice as many Abkhazians as Georgians in 1897. Georgians surpassed Abkhazians in numbers only around 1920, and then starting with 1939, the number of Georgians skyrocketed through the roof due to Stalin and Beria’s politics of colonization.

      • Does that prove that Georgians were colonizers of Abkhazia? Not at all. Andrew and I have posted many postings thats how demonstrated very well that Abkhazia is a historical Georgian land but you don’t seem to care.

        You falsly claim that Georgians are colonizers of Abkhazia, which is not supported by any archeological or historical evidence

        - And where is the historical or archelogical evidence that Georgians are colonizers? You haven’t provided any.

        seriouly do not reply to my posts anymore. I seriously starting to think you are nuts and unable to hold any serious discussion. wow!

      • Now retard Michael, the Archaeological evidence shows that ETHNIC GEORGIANS have lived in Abkhazia for over 2000 years, whereas those you incorrectly describe as “native” the Apsua, are immigrants from the north Caucasus dating mostly from the 18th and 19th centuries, who took advantage of the depopulation on Abkhazia by the Ottomans to enter and colonise a historic part of Georgia.

        Now as to demographics

        The earliest reliable records for Abkhazia are the Family Lists compiled in 1886 (published 1893 in Tbilisi), according to which the Sukhumi District’s population was 68,773, of which 30,640 were Samurzaq’anoans, 28,323 Abkhaz, 3,558 Mingrelians, 2,149 Greeks, 1,090 Armenians, 1,090 Russians and 608 Georgians[1] (including Imeretians and Gurians). Samurzaq’ano is a present-day Gali district of Abkhazia. Most of the Samurzaq’anians must be thought to have been Mingrelians (Georgian ethnic group) and a minority Abkhaz.[5] [6]

        According to the 1897 census there were 58,697 people in Abkhazia who listed Abkhaz as their mother tongue.[7] The population of the Sukhumi district (Abkhazia) was about 100,000 at that time. Greeks, Russians and Armenians composed 3.5%, 2% and 1.5% of the district’s population.[8] According to the 1917 agricultural census organized by the Russian Provisional Government, Georgians and Abkhaz composed 41.7% (54,760) and 30,4% (39,915) of the rural population of Abkhazia respectively.[9] At that time Gagra and its vicinity were not part of Abkhazia.

        During the Soviet Union, the Russian, Armenian and Georgian population grew faster than the Abkhaz, due to the large-scale migration enforced especially under the rule of Stalin and Lavrenty Beria, who himself was a Georgian born in Abkhazia.[10]

        In 2008 almost all of the circa 2000 Svans in the upper Kodori Valley fled Abkhazia when this tract of land was conquered by the Abkhazian army during the August war. The Abkhazian authorities have appealed for the Svan refugees to return[11], but by late March 2009 only 130 people continued to live in the upper Kodori Valley.[12]

        The Abkhazian government has been trying to attract members of Abkhaz diaspora (mainly in Turkey). Abkhaz officials claim about 2,000 people returned to Abkhazia since the early 1990s.[13]

        The following table summarises the results of the other censuses carried out in Abkhazia.

        1886 census = Georgians 50.6% (34,806), Abkhaz 41.1% (28,320), Russians 1.7% (1,216), Armenians 1.6%% (1,090), Greeks 3.1% (2,140)
        Total 68,773

        1926 Census = Georgians 36.3% (67,494), Abkhaz 30.1% (55,918), Russians 6.7% (12,553), Armenians 13.8% (25,677), Greeks 7.6% (14,045).
        Total 186,004

        1939 Census = Georgians 29.5% (91,967), Abkhaz 18.0% (56,197), Russians 19.3% (60,201), Armenians 15.9% (49,705), Greeks 11.1% (34,621)
        Total 311,885

        1959 Census = Georgians 39.1% (158,221), Abkhaz 15.1% (61,193), Russians 21.4% (86,715), Armenians 15.9% (64,425), Greeks 2.2% (9,101)
        Total 404,738

        1970 Census = Georgians 41.0% (199,596), Abkhaz 15.9% (77,276), Russians 19.1% (92,889), Armenians 15.4% (74,850), Greeks 2.7% (13,114)
        Total 486,959

        1979 Census = Georgians 43.9% (213,322), Abkhaz 17.1% (83,087), Russians 16.4% (79,730), Armenians 15.1% (73,350), Greeks 2.8% (13,642)
        Total 486,082

        1989 Census = Georgians 45.7% (239,872), Abkhaz 17.8% (93,267), Russians 14.3% (74,913), Armenians 14.6% (76,541), Greeks 2.8% (14,664)
        Total 525,061

        2003 Census = Georgians 21.3% (45,953), Abkhaz 43.8% (94,606), Russians 10.8% (23,420), Armenians 20.8% (44,870), Greeks 0.7% (1,486)
        Total 215,972

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Abkhazia

        So, as can be seen from the census results, starting in 1886 (and even earlier with the 1866 document from Tbilisi ( Samurzaq’anoans are considered to be, like Mingrelians, a subset of Georgians) they have been the largest ethnic group in Abkhazia long before Stalins time.

        In addition, the percentage of ethnic Georgians in Abkhazia actually DROPPED under stalins rule as can be seen from the 1926 & 1939 results, it was not until 1989 that the Georgian percentage of the population began to reach the 1886 level. However the Apsu (Abkhaz) never recovered from Russian depradations.

        It will be noted however, that the MAIN beneficiaries of Stalins policies were (not surprisingly) the RUSSIAN and ARMENIAN communities in Abkhazia, who greatly expanded to the detriment of both Apsua(Abkhaz) and Georgians.

  35. OK, Kathy, you have proven your point: you can outpost me without even trying to compehend what I am saying. Have a good night.

  36. Andrew wrote:
    > Now Michael, stop being a retard, Gamsakhurdia’s recognition of Chechnya was rescinded and is no longer in effect.

    For the record: please provide documentation as to when and how it was rescinded.

    In any case, Germans made a terrible mistake of electing Hitler. Germany is now paying the price: its previous lands of Gdansk and Kaliningrad are now Polish and Russian.

    Georgians made a terrible mistake of electing a genocidal fascist Gamsakhurdia, who was worse than Hitler, according to yout favourite man V. Abaev. Georgia is now paying the price: its previous lands of Abkhazia and S. Ossetia are independent.

    http://sojcc.ru/eng_news/295.html

    «Трагедия Юго-Осетии: Беспредел геноцида»,
    «Tragedy of South Ossetia: Boundless Genocide»

    Vasso Abaev

    The essence of genocide… This gravest criminal case has been being done with impunity for several years already by the authorities of the Christian Georgian republic against one of the national minorities, against Christian population of Ossetia. Monstrous cruelty of the planned extermination of the population of South Ossetia, plundering and ravaging houses, social and cultural institutions shocked everyone who heard about it from the eye-witnesses and TV programs. Neither Hilter’s criminals, nor Saddam Hussein’s brutalities in Kuwait and Kurdistan are comparable with them.

    Provincial center the town of Tskhinval in winter is subjected to blockade and deprived of all sources of life support: electricity, warmness, food, even water according to the classical practice of genocide: “deliberate creation of living conditions intended for full extermination of these groups” (see above). New born children freeze to death in the maternity hospital. Old people die in the Retirement home… People are subjected to all kinds of tortures and outrages. Here are paper reports taken on the off-chance from the correspondence. “110 villages are devastated! Capturing of hostages and their torturing became a usual thing. In the first week of April (1991) Tskhinval hospital received teenagers with fire wounds and cruelly beaten woman of 75 years. In one of the yards there’s a woman who is constantly crying and shouting having gone mad from tensity of the last months”. (“Moscow news”, 14 April, 1991). “Several hundreds of armed bandits invaded a village. Houses of peasants began to blaze. Murders and tortures of innocent old women and men. It were beaten till loosing consciousness and then shot a 65-year-old, 60-year-old 70-year-old. 90-year-old Tekle Kazieva was cut off fingers on her left hand, bandits couldn’t take off her golden wedding ring” (“Izvestia”, 5 April 1991).

    Violence from the one side causes responsible activities from the other. But objective observers can notice difference. A journalist visited the morgue in Gori where were killed Ossets and Georgians. She paid attention on the fact that none of the Georgian corpses was mutilated, all Osset corpses were…

    The happening in South Ossetia is understood as a nightmare. You see it with your own eyes but you don’t want to believe it. After all we speak about two people who live in friendship and accordance for centuries.

    “Hosts” and “guests”. Georgian Mass Media, in paper and magazine articles, in statements of responsible officials the concept of “hosts” and “guests” became to be intensively spread. The sense of this concept is simple. Georgians in the republic are “hosts” and the others – “guests”. The conclusion suggests itself. The guest stayed for some time and it’s enough. It’s high time to leave.

    Leader of the Georgian neo-fascists Gamsahurdia once visited Kahetia. Peering at the demographic situation in that region he was outraged. Some “Lakcs”, some “Tatars” intruded on this “fully Georgian” land. “Lacks” are Dagestans, “Tatars” – Azerbaidjanians. They must be turned out. When all “guests” are driven away the desired territorial Ethnocracy will come.

    In the interview to the London paper “The Times” Mr. Gamsahurdia said that Armenians and Azerbaidjanians form together 20% of the population of Georgia – this is a threat to the Georgian nation, the majority of them are enemies (“Sovetskaja Kultura”, 16 March, 1991).

    Mr. Gamsahurdia came to South Ossetia to enkindle by Georgians enmity towards Ossets. In the interview to one Holland paper he called Ossets “criminals” (he calls “criminals” everyone whom he doesn’t like). He stated outraging that Ossets are “uneducated wild people”.

    The propaganda of Georgian fascists doesn’t stop in front of any fabrication so as to defile “wild” Ossets. In their zoological anger Georgian chauvinists rise to such absurd confirmations that I feel ashamed of them.

    “It not only smells with fascism there but it stinks”, Rafael Alberti… In those events the Georgian ethnocratic clique disclosed itself as an organization of a fascist type.

    Hitler invades Austria and states: there is no Austria, there is German land “Ostmark. Gamsahurdia invades South Ossetia and states: there is no South Ossetia, there is Georgian land “Samachablo”. But you’ll not stand out on bare force. Austria again became Austria, South Ossetia will receive its status of South Ossetia again.

    Fascist character of the ethnocratic regime in Georgia is not a secret for anybody any longer either here or abroad. An influential in the USA newspaper writes: “Russian democrats and Western diplomats… are alarmed by the statements of Gamsahurdia against other nationalities; by his accent on special rights of ethnic Georgians, by his habit to call his opponents “criminals”, by his falling back from democracy and press… His positions are alike to fascism, his statement become more and more revolting”.

    The newspaper “La Monde” published the article of Tamaz Naskidashvili: “Approaching to fascism is clear: exaggerated nationalism, suffocating parties, search for “scapegoats”, a leader, presented as messenger of foresight and hero, whose cult becomes obligatory in course of time. Climbing down to mafia also takes place. The dirtiest “business” never was so close to the Government.

    Fascism and mafia go hand in hand. In Georgia the Government is not shy of appealing to dregs of the society, using them as a means of maneuver and to the criminal world to do dirty work. It regards to South Ossetia first of all, where Gamsahurdia wages real war of extermination.

    What a democracy may be if the Government violates human rights, when racial aggression is being practiced towards one of its national minorities? Thanks to Gamsahurdia, Osset people are robbed, starved, beaten, kidnapped. Tortured and killed!

    And if they don’t regain consciousness it would be the turn for Adjarians, Abkhazians. Meskhets, Kurds, Greeks, Armenians…

    Vasso Abaev

    • Sigh, once again, some important parts of said speech by V.I.Abayev (deliberately left out by the autistic Michael Tal)

      Still do not want to be engulfed by a wave of emotion, a wave of protest and indignation. I want to be objective and look if there were Ossetian side with any hasty, ill-considered actions that provoked and aggravated the confrontation. And I must admit that such actions were. I am referring to the proclamation of sovereignty, geared exclusively to Moscow with the prospect of unification of South and North Ossetia. Gravity South Ossetians to their northern countrymen humanly understandable. But in geopolitical terms it is wrong. Main Caucasian style ridge – the natural border between Georgia and Ossetia, and any attempt to blur this boundary will necessarily entail the state of permanent conflict between Georgians and Ossetians.
      Two years ago the editors of Radio Liberty has asked me to speak on the situation in South Ossetia. Let me quote from this speech.
      Ethnic conflict in South Ossetia – a tragic mistake. It’s time to change their mind back relations between the two peoples in the mainstream of traditional friendship. To do this, first of all, put an end to talk about rejection of South Ossetia from Georgia. None of the Georgian government will never try and be right, because it would mean a violation of the territorial integrity of Georgia. Give an example for comparison. In the south-western France, there is a National District of the Basques. These Basques enjoy full cultural autonomy, preserve their language, have their own schools, maintain vital ties with their brethren in the Iberian Peninsula. But if they wished, along with its territory to join Spain, France for anything this would not have agreed, because it would violate the territorial integrity of states. Pyrenean mountain range – the natural border between France and Spain, and it will remain unchanged. The same is true of the border between South and North Ossetia between Georgia and Russia. Who wants peace between the South Ossetians and Georgians should always reject the idea of joining South Ossetia to North. Who wants peace between Georgia and Russia, should also leave this idea. That realnost.Nekotorye my Georgian friends expressed their satisfaction with my speech on the radio “Freedom” and believed that it is possible to find a mutually acceptable solution on all the contentious issues round table.

      Reconciliation is still possible.
      Many of those who were direct witnesses of events in South Ossetia, expressing doubts about the possibility of reconciliation. Too many say they have accumulated on both sides of hostility and anger. I think they’re wrong. I believed and believe that every person and every nation has the energy coexists good and evil energy. And if in some periods of the energy of evil wins, in any case not despair and think that it is – forever. The energy required good will find its way, and then the former enemies join hands and say: “Are we not, first of all – the people, and then the Georgians and Ossetians.”
      Enmity between the nations themselves do not incite people, and politicians who manipulate people. Hence, the primary task – to free people of influence each of their politicians.
      All emerging issues of territorial, administrative, economic, cultural considerations must be addressed for a round table in a spirit of mutual goodwill and understanding.

      Seems you are still part quoteing Mr retard.

      http://sojcc.ru/res/93.html

      He still insists that South Ossetia should remain part of a greater Georgian republic.

      Enough said.

  37. He has obviosely never heard of Ardzinba the biggest fasicst who massacared thousands of innocent Georgians and was backed up by Russia.

    While Gamaskhurida was a nationalist and an inepdt idiotic leader he was not a violent man. Not to mention he was overthrown by Georgians in a year.

    but anyway Michael Tal is crazy, that is the only way to describe it. I really honestly feel sorry for him.

  38. Kate,

    Let’s stop here. I have said everything I need to say.

    I wish ethnic Georgians all the best and only hope that they will stop listening to the brainwashing propaganda and try to understand the other sides. The fears of Ossetians and Abkhazians can’t all be unjustified.

  39. Michael Tal You are nuts,, go watch RT its a Russian TV channel for crazies like you – you will orgasm from pleasure

  40. Andrew wrote:
    > 1926 Census = Georgians 36.3% (67,494), Abkhaz 30.1% (55,918),

    > 1939 Census = Georgians 29.5% (91,967), Abkhaz 18.0% (56,197)

    What happened in the 13 years between 1926 and 1939? How come the number of Abkhazis stayed the same, while the number of Georgians skyrocketed from 67,494 to 91,967? How come the percentage of Abkhazians went down from 30.1% to 18.0%? Where did the extra 25 thousand Georgians came from?

    You know why and where: I told you: Georgian colonisation sponsored by Stalin and Beria:

    “”Abkhazia suffered considerably under Stalin during the 1930s. In February 1931 the status of Abkhazia was reduced to that of an autonomous republic within Georgia. In 1937, the head of the Georgian Communist Party, Lavrenti Beria undertook his ‘anti-Abkhazian drive’, involving the forced immigration of thousands of non-Abkhazians (especially Mingrelians) into Abkhazia. After Beria’s transfer to Moscow in 1938, anti-Abkhazian measures continued under his successor, Kandida Charkviani.”
    ————

    Thanks for giving an unequivocal illustration. I couldn’t have done it better myself.

    • Now retard, you are forgetting the fact that the largest percentage increase in the population was actually Russians and Armenians,

      1926 Russians 6.7% (12,553), Armenians 13.8% (25,677)

      1939 Russians 19.3% (60,201), Armenians 15.9% (49,705),

      Lets see, where did the additional 47,648 Russians come from, and the additional 24,028 Armenians?

      The main benificiaries of Stalinism were as usual, Russians.

      Also, you fail to recognize the fact that the 1886 census shows your pathological lies for what they are.

      The poplulation of Abkhazia in 1886 was as follows,

      Georgians 50.6% (34,806), Abkhaz 41.1% (28,320), Russians 1.7% (1,216), Armenians 1.6%% (1,090), Greeks 3.1% (2,140).

      I think it is time to stop your lies Michael.
      You are incapable of telling the truth.

  41. To be fair, other non-Abkhaz ethnicities also increase tremendously:

    1926 Census = Georgians 36.3% (67,494), Abkhaz 30.1% (55,918), Russians 6.7% (12,553), Armenians 13.8% (25,677), Greeks 7.6% (14,045).
    Total 186,004

    1939 Census = Georgians 29.5% (91,967), Abkhaz 18.0% (56,197), Russians 19.3% (60,201), Armenians 15.9% (49,705), Greeks 11.1% (34,621)
    Total 311,885

    In other words, Stalin and Beria stole Abkhazia from Abkhazians by settling, Russians, Georgians, Armenians, Greek and everybody else there. That’s how Abkhazians lost their land.

    But later, the percentage of Russians and others went down again, while the percentage of Georgians went up and up and up:

    1989 Census = Georgians 45.7% (239,872), Abkhaz 17.8% (93,267), Russians 14.3% (74,913), Armenians 14.6% (76,541), Greeks 2.8% (14,664)
    Total 525,061

    • You are still avoiding the fact that in 1886 Georgians were the largest single ethnic group.

      They always have been.

      The archaeology proves it, the historical sites that dot the countryside in the form of ancient and medieval fortresses and Churches prove it.

      The observations of the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman (and also Tsarist Russians) prove it.

      Stop your lies Michael.

      • Still doesn’t negate th efact that Stalin and Beria settled probably around 80 000 new Georgians in Ablkhazia in the 1930s and 1940s and 1950s.

        • Yes, but with your falisfications you try and state that they never lived there beforehand.

          The opposite is true. Georgians are native to Abkhazia.

          • Andrew,

            I said no such thing. I am not an expert on Georgia before the 20th century, so I want to stick to the 20th century.

            • You are no expert on Georgia in ANY century.

              • Thank you Andrew once again you point out what a Liar Michael Tal is. When he gets caught he never wants to admit it instead he gets obsessed over some obscure details – he belongs at RT blogs

            • The other problem with your (as usual infantile) statement is that without understanding the history of the Georgian province of Abkhazia, you cannot understand their attachment to it.

              Instead you make yourself look like a complete fool by harping on about “Georgian colonisation and imperialism”

              It has many of the oldest Georgian Churches, it is part of the cradle of their state. It is one of the cornerstones of their culture.

              They have lived there for all of recorded history.

              This is real history, not the rabid and racist theories of Ardzinba, and the propaganda of “circassianworld” etc.

              You might be a mathematician and programmer, but you have a very poor understanding of history.

            • none of you are not an expert in this matter

  42. In fact, Beria and Stalin’s mass settlement of Georgians in Abkhazia was especially vile in the 1940s and 1950s, when 66 thousand more settled:

    1939 Census = Georgians 29.5% (91,967)
    1959 Census = Georgians 39.1% (158,221),

    That’s a 72% increase.

    Notice that the population of Georgia as a whole went from 3.1 million in 1939 to 3.6 in 1949. That’s an increase of 16%. But the Georgian population increased by 72%.

    Or look at it this way: In 1939 there were 91,967 Georgians. If their number grew in Abkhazia the way it grew in Georgia as a whole, there would be extra 14,800 extra Georgians in Abkhazia. But the number of extra Georgians was 158,221 – 91,967 = 66,254. But 66,254 – 14,800 = 51,400.

    That’s how many Georgian colonists settled in Abkhazia between 1939 and 1959. Mind boggling.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Georgia_Pop1921-2008.jpg

    • So? The simple fact of the matter is that for several thousand years Georgians have lived in Abkhazia.

      You, and kremlin and separatist apologists like you, try to justify the ethnic cleansing of a vile and racist little regime like that of Ardzinba by pointing to what Stalin had done. However you also propagate racist propaganda from separatists who ntry and deny the very existance of Georgians in Abkhazia prior to the 20th century.

      The fact is that ALL foreign observers and regional powers/occupiers recognised the fact that Abkhazia was part of the various GEORGIAN kingdoms and states, and was populated in large part by ethnic Georgians.

  43. Another problem: the population of Georgia as a whole grew from 2.4 million in 1926 to 3.1 million in 1939. That’s a 30% increase. But the number of Abkhazis in Abkhazia stayed the same:

    1926 Census = Abkhaz 55,918
    1939 Census = Abkhaz 56,197

    So, what happened to that 30% of Abkhazis? Did Comrades Beria and Stalin resettle them somewhere far away from their homeland?

    • No Michael, its the nature of very small populations. Not to increase at any great rate.

      As Svetlana Chervonnaya (a respected ethnographist) pointed out in “Conflict in the Caucasus”, the Apsu were caught in a degenerative spiral that is typical of very small populations that are not keen on intermarriage.

      There was no deportation of Apsua.

      Once again, you are no historian.

      You are however a racist scumbag.

      • > No Michael, its the nature of very small populations. Not to increase at any great rate.

        Are you saying that small groups should have a larger death rate and/or a lower birth rate than large groups? Why?

        • Once again, math and logic is not your forte, Andrew.

          • It’s not mathematics, its pressure on small populations.

            Logic is most certainly not your strongpoint Mr Liar.

            Larger populations tend to be a self fulfilling trend, while smaller populations frequently fall to a point where reproduction has a hard time sustaining the current population let alon increasing it significantly.

            Its a common problem for small populations and cultures worldwide.

  44. Think about it: the population of Abkhazia increased by 68% from 1926 to 1939, but the number of Abkhazians there stayed the same.

    • No Michael, they just did not have a good birth rate.

      Once again, not uncommon amongst small populations. You are also talking about 23 years, one generation.

      Once again, I want to hear you admit that Georgians are native to Abkhazia, and have lived there for millenia. The archaeology shows it, the history shows it, and the census results also prove that the separatist claims are absolute rubbish.

      So come 0n, either admit the truth, or admit you are a lyring racist scumbag.

  45. > As Svetlana Chervonnaya (a respected ethnographist) pointed out in “Conflict in the Caucasus”, the Apsu were caught in a degenerative spiral that is typical of very small populations that are not keen on intermarriage.

    In other words, when Abkhazia was part of Georgia, the “Apsu” were dying out? How horrible. How long would it have taken for them to disappear altogether?

  46. Actually it was when Georgia (including Abkhazia) was part of the Soviet union.

    As for dying out, well more like they were treading water, they just could not match the birth rates for other ethnic groups in the province.

  47. As Svetlana Chervonnaya also rightly points out, all decisions of any substance in the Soviet Union were decided from Moscow.

    It was just like Tsarist Russia but with Red Stars.

    Anyway Michael, when are you going to admit you were lying?

    When are you going to admit that Abkhazia is a historic part of Georgia?

    After all, the archaeology shows it, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Ottoman, and even Tsarist Russian historians and witnesses state it.

    And the demographics show it too.

    It was RUSSIANS that caused the main damage to the Apsu population of Abkhazia, not Georgians, when the Russians started deporting moslems in the late century.

  48. > Larger populations tend to be a self fulfilling trend, while smaller populations frequently fall to a point where reproduction has a hard time sustaining the current population let alon increasing it significantly.

    Well, this makes no sense if we are talking about a small people, who live as a majority in their own land. For example, Icelanders have no problem with depopulation:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Iceland

    Population 309,605
    Birth rate 13.83 births/1,000 population
    Death rate 6.57 deaths/1,000 population

    But if a this small people are living as a minority, spread among a foreign majority – then yes, they would have a slightly harder time meeting and marrying each other. That’s why Abkhazians should live compactly together in the majority in their own country.

    • But the simple fact of the matter is that it is historically Georgian land.

      So as usual you are being a racist thug, a proponent of the ethnic cleansing of the historical majority and native population of a region.

    • Icelanders also lived in a relatively wealthy society and the figures you give are for 2007.

      Medicine has improved greatly since the 1930′s

      • I don’t understand, first you say that Chechnya (and the whole northern Caucasus) should become independent, and then declare that Abkhazia and South Ossetia is an integral part of Georgia and should not have independence. Have you got a double standard?

        You say this: everything that makes Russia – is always bad. But all that makes opponents of Russia – it is always good. Even if they (Russia and Georgia, for example) do the same thing.
        I do not understand you!

        • I am the one who said that, read my above posts i explained why. it is not double stndard because two cases are completely different., not all conflicts are the same and it is wrong to approach them in the same way.

  49. Kadyrov Again Declares Victory as Rebel Attacks Continue

    Publication: Eurasia Daily Monitor Volume: 6 Issue: 194
    October 22, 2009 03:33 PM Age: 16 hrs

    By: The Jamestown Foundation

    Several terrorist attacks have been carried out in Ingushetia and Chechnya this week. Today (October 22), a bomb exploded as Isa Korigov, the head of the criminal police in the Ingush city of Malgobek, was getting into his car with his wife at their home in the city of Malgobek. The blast injured Korigov and his wife, and killed their driver, Maksharip Dzeitov. Korigov’s injuries were described as moderate, while those of his wife were described as severe. According to preliminary findings, the blast had the force of three kilograms of TNT. The attack was not the first on Korigov; in July 2008, unidentified gunmen fired a grenade launcher at his house. No one was hurt in that attack, but when the police arrived at the scene of that incident, the attackers detonated a bomb that wounded Korigov and three other policemen, all of whom were hospitalized (www.newsru.com, October 22).

    Yesterday (October 21), a roadside bomb was detonated as a police vehicle was traveling to the scene of an attack near the village of Yandare in Ingushetia’s Nazran district. A source in Ingushetia’s law enforcement bodies told Interfax that according to preliminary information, an undetermined number of people were killed and wounded in the blast. However, a source in Ingushetia’s interior ministry later said that no one was killed in the blast. The bombing took place after unidentified attackers fired grenade launchers and automatic weapons at a traffic police post near Yandare, wounding two traffic police officers and two OMON police commandos. The attackers had apparently prepared a roadside bomb knowing that police reinforcements would be called to the scene of the attack on the traffic police post (www.newsru.com, October 21).

    On October 20, unknown attackers fired on a car being driven by a member of the Nazran police department, Timur Tungoev. According to the press service of Ingushetia’s interior ministry, the police officer was not hurt in the attack and fired back at the attackers (www.kavkaz-uzel.ru, October 20). That same day, police found an arms cache near an agricultural mill in the village of Barsuki in Ingushetia’s Nazran district. The cache included seven grenades for a grenade launcher, two hand grenades and a small amount of ammunition (www.kavkaz-uzel.ru, October 20).

    On October 19, bomb disposal experts defused a car bomb near a bus stop in the city of Nazran near the building housing the main staff of Ingushetia’s interior ministry. After clearing the area, they detonated the car bomb in a controlled explosion that reportedly could be heard outside the city. According to investigators, the force of the explosion was the equivalent of five to ten kilograms of TNT (www.newsru.com, October 19).

    Also on October 19, a local resident of Nazran’s Plievo village was shot to death in his car by unknown attackers. The victim was identified only by his last name, Azhigov (www.kavkaz-uzel.ru, October 19).

    Meanwhile, four policemen and a passerby were injured in neighboring Chechnya yesterday (October 21) when a suicide bomber detonated a bomb in the Oktyabrsky district of the capital Grozny. Chechen Interior Minister Ruslan Alkhanov told Interfax that the incident took place when police tried to detain the bomber, whom he identified as Zaurbek Khashumov, who was born in 1992 and was on the list of those in the republic who had supposedly disappeared without a trace. According to the Kavkazsky Uzel website, the incident marked the ninth suicide bombing in Chechnya since the federal authorities announced an end to anti-terrorist operations in the republic last April (www.kavkaz-uzel.ru, October 21).

    Also on October 21, one policeman was killed and two wounded during a counter-insurgency operation in Chechnya’s Urus-Martan district, in which two militants were also killed. The operation was launched in the village of Goiti after police blockaded a group of rebels in several homes. That same day, Chechen Interior Minister Alkhanov said that a 20-year-old militant, Aslanbek Khachukaev, had been killed by security forces on the outskirts of the village of Yermolovka in Chechnya’s Grozny agricultural district. According to Alkhanov, Khachukaev was involved in the murder last month of the head of the administration of the village of Stary Achkhoi, Ali Atramov, and his son (www.sknews.ru, October 21).

    Meanwhile, two Russian servicemen were wounded when gunmen fired grenade launchers and assault rifles at two vehicles outside the village of Khatuni in Chechnya’s southern Vedeno district. A Chechen law enforcement source said that the attackers fired on a Ural truck and an armored tractor ferrying Russian servicemen to cut down trees. The two injured soldiers were contract servicemen –a sergeant and a private (ITAR-TASS, October 21).

    On October 19 the Deputy Prosecutor-General Ivan Sydoruk told the Legal and Court Affairs Committee of the Federation Council, the Russian parliament’s upper chamber, that Chechnya, Dagestan and Ingushetia are “the biggest problems in southern Russia” and that the rate of attacks on law enforcement personnel in the North Caucasus is growing steadily. He said that 192 people, including policemen, were killed, 484 were wounded and 425 extremist crimes were perpetrated in the three republics in the first nine months of the year. Sydoruk added that militants are propagandizing the “extremely aggressive” religious tendency of “Wahhabism” and are “ideologically preparing” suicide bombers (Interfax, October 19).

    Chechen President Ramzan Kadyrov declared on October 17 that the fight against the republic’s rebels is approaching a victorious end, telling top law enforcement officials that it is necessary to start dealing with “small problems,” including collecting intelligence on the militants in order to “act preventively” to “foil their plans at their planning stage.” Kadyrov also said that the search for Chechen rebel leader Dokka Umarov, the head of the self-declared Caucasus Emirate, and two other rebel leaders, Muslim and Khusein Gakaev, must continue. “They must be destroyed,” he said. “They themselves have signed their [death] sentences. We have studied each square meter of the woods; we are looking for them everywhere. And I am convinced that they have not got long left to run in the forest,” Kadyrov claimed (www.newsru.com, October 17).

  50. @In other words, Kadyrov has managed completely to escape from the Kremlin’s control and is about to create a virtually separate state system that will be connected to Russia only in name.

    Nah, it is about to be connected also by money.

    Recognition
    http://www.watchdog.cz/index.php?show=000000-000024-000006-000002&lang=1

    “Well, the results of this Levada Centre poll have just come in. And 36 percent of Russia’s inhabitants think that, here, I quote: ‘Russia will sooner or later have to recognize the independence of Chechnya from Russia’ … “

    “That’s a lot of nonsense,” Kadyrov said, getting worked up.

    “You’re telling me. Still, more than a third of the respondents think that way,” Surkov replied. “And we’ve decided not to wait until ‘later’. We’re going to give you independence right now.”

    “Is this a joke?” Kadyrov said, uncomprehendingly.

    “It’s no joke! I congratulate you on the recognition of Chechnya! Independence is what you asked for, what you fought for, isn’t it? So here you are!”

    “There must be some mistake,” Kadyrov said, firmly. “We’ve fought for a long time against international terrorism. And we’ve fought for Russia’s territorial integrity. But we’ve never fought for independence. And we haven’t asked for it. What we’re asking for is the budget for next year. You’re confused.”

    • What is wrong with that Chechnya has become a broad autonomy. You first called for an independent Chechnya, and then write those articles which condemn Kadyrov! Condemns the same just because Kadyrov was not opposed to Putin. So decide: what do you want?

      • Kadyrov behind bars.

        • for what?

          • For murders, kidnappings, torture.

            • Maybe even crimes against humanity.

              On November 13, 2006, Human Rights Watch published a briefing paper on torture in Chechnya that it had prepared for the 37th session of the United Nations Committee Against Torture. The paper covered torture by personnel of the Second Operational Investigative Bureau (ORB-2), torture by units under the effective command of Ramzan Kadyrov, torture in secret detentions and the continuing “disappearances.” According to HRW, torture “in both official and secret detention facilities is widespread and systematic in Chechnya.” In many cases the perpetrators were so confident that there would be no consequences for their abuses that they did not even attempt to conceal their identity. Based on extensive research, HRW concluded in 2005 that forced disappearances in Chechnya are so widespread and systematic that they constitute crimes against humanity.
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzan_Kadyrov

              And also for arson, extortion, animal cruelty (in addition to human cruelty) and so on.

              I understand he was amnestied for armed rebellion (and “banditry and terrorism”) already. No biggie.

              • You can not believe everything they write.
                You say so confidently, as though he saw what was happening. Maybe it’s all propaganda? Because the American press says is not always what happens in reality.

            • Please tell me the names, addresses, cell phones tortured. Well, so I could ask themselves …

                • Full story: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/01/world/europe/01torture.html

                  For more, read for example the Moscow court materials: http://www.memo.ru/2009/09/10/sud.htm

                  And the European Court cases: http://www.srji.org/en/legal/cases (ill-treatment, althrough many/most victims of extra-judical executions were also tortured).

                  Example:

                  Zhebrailova and Others v. Russia, (40166/07)

                  Communicated: 2009-09-02
                  Lodged: 2007-09-11
                  Date of violation: 2005-04-25
                  Violation: Disappearance and Ill-treatment
                  Location: Chechnya
                  Representative: EHRAC/Memorial

                  At about midnight on the night between 25 and 26 April 2005 a group of servicemen burst into the home of the Zhebrailov family in the village of Gekhi. They violently apprehended Balavdi Zhebrailov and his brother Salavdi, put them in an UAZ vehicle and drove off. The servicemen continued to beat up the brothers inside the car. The car eventually stopped and they were taken to separate cells in a basement where the beating continued. Later on that night, the brothers were transported to the premises of the 2nd regiment of the road police of the Ministry of the Interior of the Chechen Republic. At some point the car stopped and Salavdi was thrown outside. He returned home in the morning. Balavdi is missing since.

                  Communication:

                  http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?action=html&documentId=853658&portal=hbkm&source=externalbydocnumber&table=F69A27FD8FB86142BF01C1166DEA398649

                  • @ http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/01/world/europe/01torture.html

                    It actually has a good summary of Ramzan:

                    As he has seized power, he has borrowed from Stalinism, Sufi Islam and Chechen nationalism to erode the insurgency, bend a frightened society to his will and rebuild the republic at a blur.

                    Along the way, he has been cast by his critics as Russia’s most sadistic gangster.

                    He has been accused of crimes capital, carnal and municipal, ranging from murder, torture and kidnapping to cavorting with prostitutes and exacting kickbacks from government workers to build monuments to his father and himself.

                    He has always denied all the allegations. In interviews since 2004 with The Times, he sometimes laughed at them, and while he called himself “a warrior,” he insisted that he fought only for peace.

                    “I am a Muslim” he said in 2006, when pressed about allegations of kidnapping.

                    “A good Muslim would never commit a crime,” he said. “He will always be facing God, and he will always do good to people.”

                    He added, as he drove a reporter at high speeds through the Chechen capital, Grozny, with assault rifles strewn about his car’s seats: “I am an official person. I am not a bandit.”

                  • And you believe that Russian “defenders”? I’m sure: they receive their instructions directly from Washington. In Russia, these “defenders” do not themselves have long enjoyed the confidence of people (I mean intelligent people).

                • Maybe it’s the enemies of Kadyrov killed Umar S. Israilov?
                  First: he worked for Kadyrov, which means he a traitor in the eyes of the separatists.
                  Second: killing Israilov, they are so spoiled the reputation of Kadyrov.
                  Third: Kadyrov either a fool or a sadist, that so carelessly dealt with the enemy. He could arrange Israilov “accident”, “car accident”, for example.

                  • Yeah he’s a sadist and a murderer just like Putin

                    • Kate, хватит поддакивать остальным, вечно суешься не в тему! Придумай, наконец, что-то новое!

                    • У нее мозгов нет, чтобы свое придумать. Она просто повторяет всю человеконенавидящую брехню, котрую ей на уши повесила грузинская пропаганда, начатая фашистом Гамсахурдией.

                    • Michael Only one without brains on here is you. you shameless hypocrite, i already told you how the real fasicst Ardzinba was supported by Yeltsin and the Russian government and how they together massacared more than 20,000 ethnic georgians, but you have nothing to say about that .

                      what is a moron like you doing on this blog anyway? this is a blog made by very intelligent people and for idiots like you it is beyond comprehension.

              • Viktor,

                Do you REALLY believe that Kadyrov is not a criminal?!

                • Michael Tal,

                  Do you REALLY believe that Putin is not a criminal??

                  • Where did I say that? Of course he is. The falsification of the Moscow elections is his latest crime.

                  • Now let me ask you:

                    Do you REALLY believe that Gamsakhurdia, Shevardnadze and Saakashvili are/were not criminals?

                    • He’s a criminal only for falsicfication of elections no other reasons? answer that

                    • > He’s a criminal only for falsicfication of elections no other reasons? answer that

                      No, in addition to constant voter fraud, he’s committed lots of other crimes against the law. He’s broken the Constitution many times over.

                      But why is it that I keep on answering your questions, but you suspciously avoid answering mine?

                • Michael Tal,

                  Do you REALLY believe that D. W. Bush is not a criminal?!

                • What I really think about Kadyrov? Yes, it is not an exemplary defender of human rights and freedoms. But to say that he is a criminal … I have not seen conclusive evidence in favor of the fact that Kadyrov offender. Those links that have been here are clearly trying to defend a ONE point of view. But the TRUTH always lies somewhere in between.

                • Ты че так пропалился? даже я ВСЕРЬЕЗ поверил, что ты американец!

  51. Andrew wrote:
    > 1886 census = Georgians 50.6% (34,806), Abkhaz 41.1% (28,320),… Total 68,773

    That is total BS. Nothing more than Georgian propaganda. Here are the REAL official results of the 1886 census:

    http://www.ethno-kavkaz.narod.ru/rnabkhazia.html

    There were virtually no Georgians proper in Abkhazia. There were Mengrels: about 4 thousand. What your statistics call “Georgians” – the census calls Samurzaq’anons. But they were not Georgians. They were a mixture of Abkhazians and Mengrels:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Abkhazia
    The earliest reliable records for Abkhazia are the Family Lists compiled in 1886 (published 1893 in Tbilisi), according to which the Sukhumi District’s population was 68,773, of which 30,640 were Samurzaq’anoans, 28,323 Abkhaz, 3,558 Mingrelians, 2,149 Greeks, 1,090 Armenians, 1,090 Russians and 608 Georgians[1] (including Imeretians and Gurians). Samurzaq’ano is a present-day Gali district of Abkhazia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gali_district
    The upper class of this new principality was composed chiefly of the Georgian-speaking Abkhaz nobility, whereas the peasants were of both Abkhaz and Georgian (Mingrelian) background.

    You cannot count Samurzaq’anons as pure Georgians at all.

  52. Andrew wrote:
    > 1886 census = Georgians 50.6% (34,806), Abkhaz 41.1% (28,320),… Total 68,773

    That is total BS. Nothing more than Georgian propaganda. Here are the REAL official results of the 1886 census:

    http://www.ethno-kavkaz.narod.ru/rnabkhazia.html

    There were virtually no Georgians proper in Abkhazia. There were Mengrels: about 4 thousand. What your statistics call “Georgians” – the census calls Samurzaq’anons. But they were not Georgians. They were a mixture of Abkhazians and Mengrels:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Abkhazia
    The earliest reliable records for Abkhazia are the Family Lists compiled in 1886 (published 1893 in Tbilisi), according to which the Sukhumi District’s population was 68,773, of which 30,640 were Samurzaq’anoans, 28,323 Abkhaz, 3,558 Mingrelians, 2,149 Greeks, 1,090 Armenians, 1,090 Russians and 608 Georgians[1] (including Imeretians and Gurians). Samurzaq’ano is a present-day Gali district of Abkhazia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gali_district
    The upper class of this new principality was composed chiefly of the Georgian-speaking Abkhaz nobility, whereas the peasants were of both Abkhaz and Georgian (Mingrelian) background.

    You cannot count Samurzaq’anons as pure Georgians at all.

    Therefore, if we split Samurzaq’anons as half Abkhazian and half Georgian, then the percentages will be roughly:

    1886 census = Georgians 27%, Abkhaz 64%

    Therefore, if we split Samurzaq’anons as half Abkhazian and half Georgian, then the percentages will be roughly:

    1886 census = Georgians 27%, Abkhaz 64%

    Even if we split Samurzaq’anons as third Abkhazian and two thirds Georgian, then the percentages will be roughly:

    1886 census = Georgians 35%, Abkhaz 56%

    • First of all Michael do you admit that you lied about Georgians being colonizers in Abkhazia?
      When in fact georgians are native to Abkhazia

    • In reality, Samurzaq’anons are all ethnic Abkhazians, who inhabited this region from ancient times but who were forcibly Mengrelized in the 19th century by Georgians and the Russian Empire that always took the Georgian side (partially because Georgians are fellow Orthodox Christians):

      http://www.fuadiye.com/Bagapsh-3.html

      • Actually retard, the Samurzaq’anons were also Georgian Orthodox Christians. That is why they were not deproted BY RUSSIA in the 1860′s.

        However as already noted, they are a MIXTURE of Georgians and Apsu, and have been that way for CENTURIES prior to the arrival of genocidal Russia to the region.

        Once again, Georgians are native to Abkhazia, the overwhelming majority of historical buildings and treasures of Abkhazia are Georgian in origin, filled with Georgian frescoes and inscriptions in the Georgian language and script.

        Many examples date from the 9th century.
        You really are a scumbag.

        Why don’t you get an education Kapo.

  53. Leaving the Caucasus would allow Russia to limit itself geopolitically in favour of strengthening its geopolitical might. Only a country which finds itself in the peak of modernity, is capable of such an accomplishment.

    Bravo to Igor Averkiev he is exactly right
    There are many projects and alternatives as to how and when Russia could leave the Caucasus. The responsible part of Russia’s civic society simply needs to take these alternatives under public discussion, evaluate and improve them.

    I think I am aware of all of the main arguments against my proposal: the humanitarian, liberal-democratic, rational-bureaucratic, and imperial-nationalist.

  54. Kate,

    As you can see, even the earliest available census – 1888 – shows that the ethnic Abkhazians were in the vast majority: between 56% and 64%, whereas Georgians (most of whom were Mengrels) were between 27% and 35%. If you have any earlier official census showing otherwise – then post it with the link to the source.

    But neither Andrew nor I have found any earlier numbers than 1888. Wikipedia says that there were no cense(sp?) before 1888. I specifically referred to Georgian colonizers in reference to the colonisation started by Stalin and Beria in the 1930s, and Andrew had to agree.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Abkhazia
    The earliest reliable records for Abkhazia are the Family Lists compiled in 1886 (published 1893 in Tbilisi)

    I was not referring to anything before 1888 simply because there are no exact census numbers in existence before that. You have to remember that before Russia took over the Caucuses, the region was not very westernised and there were no cense(?) taken until the Russians came (at Georgian request to protect Georgians btw)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

    In 1783, Russia and the eastern Georgian kingdom of Kartl-Kakheti (which was devastated by Turkish and Persian invasions) signed the Treaty of Georgievsk, according to which Kartl-Kakheti received protection by Russia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Georgievsk

    The Treaty of Georgievsk (Georgian: გეორგიევსკის ტრაქტატი, georgievskis trak’tati) was a bilateral treaty concluded between the Russian Empire and the east Georgian kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti on July 24, 1783. The treaty established Georgia as a protectorate of Russia, which guaranteed Georgia’s territorial integrity and the continuation of its reigning Bagrationi dynasty in return for prerogatives in the conduct of Georgian foreign affairs. Georgia abjured any form of dependence on Persia or another power, and every new Georgian monarch would require the confirmation and investiture of the Russian tsar.

    Under articles I, II, IV, VI and VII of the treaty’s terms, Russia’s empress became the official and sole suzerain of Kartli-Kakheti’s rulers, guaranteeing the Georgians’ internal sovereignty and territorial integrity, and promising to “regard their enemies as Her enemies” [1]. Each of the Georgian kingdom’s tsars would henceforth be obliged to swear allegiance to Russia’s emperors, to support Russia in war, and to have no diplomatic communications with other nations without Russia’s prior consent.

    Given Georgia’s history of invasions from the south, an alliance with Russia may have been seen as the only way to discourage or resist Persian and Ottoman aggression, while also establishing a link to Western Europe.[2] In the past, Georgia’s kings had not only accepted formal domination by Turkish and Persian emperors, but had occasionally converted to Islam and sojourned at their capitals. Thus it was neither a break with Georgian tradition nor a unique capitulation of independence for Kartli-Kakheti to trade vassalage for peace with a powerful neighbor. However, in the treaty’s preamble and article VIII the bond of Orthodox Christianity between Georgians and Russians was acknowledged, and Georgia’s primate, the Catholicos, became Russia’s eighth, permanent archbishop and a member of Russia’s Holy Synod.
    —————————

    • I meant 1886 not 1888. Also:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

      In 1783, Russia and the eastern Georgian kingdom of Kartl-Kakheti (which was devastated by Turkish and Persian invasions) signed the Treaty of Georgievsk, according to which Kartl-Kakheti received protection by Russia. In order to secure communications with Georgia and other regions of the Transcaucasia, the Russian Empire began spreading its influence into the Caucasus mountains.

      • Now Michael, you are playing at semantics. Mingrelians ARE Georgians, I seriously suggest you don’t try and say to anu Mingrelians that they are not, or you might find youself getting somewhat hurt.

        Mingrelians, Samurzaq’anons, Imeretians, Kakhetians, Gurrians, Svans

        As to the Samurzaq’anons, they are counted as a subset of Georgians with some Abkhaz heitage by the Tsarists.

        “Historically, the present-day Gali district constituted the borderland between the principalities of Abkhazia and Samegrelo, the two breakaway feudal domains of the Kingdom of Georgia, and frequently changed its masters as the borders of these princedoms fluctuated during the dynastic feuds between the Shervashidze and Dadiani clans. In the second half of the 17th century, the Shervashidze princes of Abkhazia succeeded in conquering the territories up the Inguri River including the Gali district. With the dissolution of the Principality of Abkhazia c. 1700, the district between the Galidzga to the Inguri came to be ruled by a branch of the Shervashidze family whose one member, Murzakan, gave to his new fiefdom the name “Samurzakano” (i.e, “land of Murzakan”). The upper class of this new principality was composed chiefly of the Georgian-speaking Abkhaz nobility, whereas the peasants were of both Abkhaz and Georgian (Mingrelian) background.”

        “The rate of intermarriages between the Georgians and Abkhaz was high that resulted in the mixed heritage of the district’s population and the introduction of the special category “Samurzakanians” in the 1897 Imperial Russian census. This group was made up chiefly by the Mingrelians with a minority of Abkhaz. 38% and 35% of the district’s population identified themselves as Mingrelian and Georgian respectively during the first Soviet census of 1926″

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gali_district

        However, as usual the facts show that Georgians (Mingrelians ARE Georgians Michael, just the same way that Yorkshiremen are English despite linguistic variations that were very noticeable until the late 19th century) have lived in Abkhazia for millenia. They are not “recent colonists” as you frequently and racistly infer.

        You really are a scumbag.

        As to the Treaty you keep wanking off about

        “The results of the Treaty of Georgievsk proved disappointing for the Georgians.[5] King Erekle’s adherence to it prompted Persia’s new ruler, Agha Mohammad Khan, to invade. Russia did nothing to help the Georgians during the disastrous Battle of Krtsanisi in 1795, which left Tbilisi sacked and Georgia ravaged (including the west Georgian kingdom of Imereti, ruled by Erekle II’s grandson, King Solomon II). Belatedly, Catherine declared war on Persia and sent an army to Transcaucasia. But her death shortly thereafter put an end to Russia’s Persian Expedition of 1796, as her successor, Paul, turned to other strategic objectives. Persia’s Shahanshah next contemplated the removal of the Christian population from eastern Georgia and eastern Armenia, launching the campaign from Karabagh. His goal was frustrated not by Russian resistance, but by a Persian assassin in 1797.

        On January 14, 1798, King Erekle II was succeeded on the throne by his eldest son, George XII (1746-1800) who, on February 22, 1799, recognized his own eldest son, Tsarevich David (Davit Bagrationi-batonishvili), 1767-1819, as official heir apparent. In the same year Russian troops were stationed in Kartli-Kakheti. Pursuant to article VI of the treaty, Emperor Paul confirmed David’s claim to reign as the next king on April 18, 1799. But strife broke out among King George’s many sons and those of his late father over the throne, Erekle II having changed the succession order at the behest of his third wife, Queen Darejan, to favor the accession of younger brothers of future kings over their own sons. The resulting dynastic upheaval prompted King George to secretly invite Paul I to invade Kartli-Kakheti, subdue the Bagratid princes, and govern the kingdom from St. Petersburg, on the condition that George and his descendants be allowed to continue to reign nominally – in effect, offering to mediatize the Bagratid dynasty under the Romanov emperors.[1] Continued pressure from Persia, also prompted George XII’s request for Russian intervention. [2]

        Paul tentatively accepted this offer, but before negotiations could be finalized changed his mind and issued a decree on December 18, 1800 annexing Kartli-Kakheti to Russia and deposing the Bagratids.[3] Paul himself died shortly thereafter. It is said that his successor, Emperor Alexander I, considered retracting the annexation in favor of a Bagratid heir, but being unable to identify one likely to retain the crown, on September 12, 1801 Alexander proceeded to confirm annexation.[4] Meanwhile, King George had died on December 28, 1800, before learning that he had lost his throne. By the following April, Russian troops took control of the country’s administration and in February 1803 Tsarevich David Bagrationi was escorted by Russian troops from Tbilisi to St. Petersburg. He was pensioned, joined the Russian Senate, and retained his royal style until May 6, 1833 when he was demoted from tsarevich (the Russian equivalent of batonishvili) to “prince” (knyaz), along with other members of the deposed dynasty, following an abortive uprising in Georgia led by David’s uncle, Prince Alexandre Bagrationi.

        Paul’s annexation of east Georgia and exile of the Bagratids remains controversial: Soviet historians would later maintain that the treaty was an act of “brotherhood of the Russian and Georgian peoples” that justified annexation to protect Georgia both from its historical foreign persecutors and its “decadent” native dynasty. Nonetheless, no bilateral amendment had been ratified altering article VI sections 2 and 3 of the 1784 treaty, which obligated the Russian emperor “to preserve His Serene Highness Tsar Irakli Teimurazovich and the Heirs and descendants of his House, uninterrupted on the Throne of the Kingdoms of Kartli and Kakheti…forbidding [the Emperor’s] Military and Civil Authorities from intervention in any [domestic laws or orders].””

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Georgievsk

        As usual the Russians being who they are breached pretty much all the terms.

        They also breached the terms protecting the Georgian Church, replacing Georgian liturgy with Russian, the Russians supressed the Georgian language, destroyed the Georgian legal system replacing it with the draconian (and corrupt) Russian system, and rather than treating Georgians as friends, treated them as a conquered people to be enslaved.

    • You still have not answered my question, andrew demonstrated to you that georgians are native in abkhazia not colonizers. do you admit that georgians are native to abkhazia or not?

  55. > Yes, the same Gamsakhurdia that was overthrown

    Yes, he was replaced by a much saner (although corrupt) man: Shevardnadze. But your beloved Vasily Ivanovich Abaev knew that this sanity would not last forever:

    http://osinform.ru/1627-v_i_abaev_tragedija_jugo-osetii_bespredel_genotsida_neopublikovannaja_statja_professora.html.

    Vasily Ivanovich said: “Alex you should not be naive, especially knew something bad in the history of the Ossetian-Georgian relations and in the genocide of Ossetians in the 20′s and in 1989-1992. A new “hawk” in the leadership of Georgia and again repeated the same thing, but in a worst case.”

    And sure enough: the same Americans, who took Kosovo from Serbia, helped a revolution that replaced a sane man Shevardnadze with a new insane fascist hawk: Saakashvili, who pardoned Gamsakhurdia and his henchmen and launched another war on S. Ossetia:

    http://www.answers.com/topic/zviad-gamsakhurdia.

    Gamsakhurdia’s legacy
    On January 26, 2004, in a ceremony held at the Kashueti Church of Saint George in Tbilisi, the newly elected President Mikhail Saakashvili officially rehabilitated [genocidal fascist!] Gamsakhurdia to resolve the lingering political effects of his overthrow in an effort to “put an end to disunity in our society”, as Saakashvili put it. He praised Gamsakhurdia’s role as a “great statesman and patriot” and promulgated a decree granting permission for Gamsakhurdia’s body to be reburied in the Georgian capital, declaring that the “abandon[ment of] the Georgian president’s grave in a war zone … is a shame and disrespectful of one’s own self and disrespectful of one’s own nation”. He also renamed a major road in Tbilisi after Gamsakhurdia and released 32 Gamsakhurdia supporters imprisoned by Shevardnadze’s government in 1993-1994, who were regarded by many Georgians and some international human rights organizations as being political prisoners.
    —————–

    So, how can Ossetians trust even for a second that Saakashvili will not commit a third genocide against them in less than a century?!

    • Saakashvili already commited genocide in Ossetia he had 2,000 innocent civillians killed in one night. Putin, Medvedev and numerous other high ranked Russian officials have said it as well all of htem calling it a genocide. You have not heard?

      • Ardzinba, a true fascist who with help from Russia massacared thousands of Georgians, some in the most atrocious ways. Russia rewarded him and supported his presidency following those horrible events.

        The 1994 U.S. State Department Country Reports also describes scenes of massive human rights abuse:

        The [Abkhaz] separatist forces committed widespread atrocities against the Georgian civilian population, killing many women, children, and elderly, capturing some as hostages and torturing others … they also killed large numbers of Georgian civilians who remained behind in Abkhaz-seized territory… [7]
        The separatists launched a reign of terror against the majority Georgian population, although other nationalities also suffered. Chechens and other north Caucasians from the Russian Federation reportedly joined local Abkhaz troops in the commission of atrocities… Those fleeing Abkhazia made highly credible claims of atrocities, including the killing of civilians without regard for age or sex. Corpses recovered from Abkhaz-held territory showed signs of extensive torture. (The evidence available to Human Rights Watch supports the U.S. State Department’s findings.) [8]

        Under his rule, human right records were extremely poor as most of the pre-war Georgian population of Abkhazia were deprived the right to return and those who remained were subjected to systematic ethnic cleansing. Ardzinba aroused some further criticism from the international community after issuing a decree banning Jehovah’s Witnesses in 1995.

        During the last years of his presidency Ardzinba faced criticism for both failing to bring stability to Abkhazia and his increasingly low public profile. He has not appeared in public since 2002. As a result, the role of governing the state had been increasingly left to Prime Minister Raul Khajimba.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhumi_massacre

        • If russia cares for ethnic minorities why did they support Ardzinba and massacare of thousands of georgians ? if they care about ethnic minorities why did they conduct ethnic cleansing of Georgians from Samachablo ( so caled s. ossetia)

      • Oh but wait Putin, Medvedev and all the high ranked Russian officials lied shamelselly when they claimed numerous times that Georiga commited in their own words “genocide” against ossetians.

        • Almost everything Saakashvili says is a pathetic laughable lie. For example:

          http://mobile.france24.com/en/20080811-eu-presses-peace-plan-over-south-ossetia-conflict-georgia-russia

          According to the commander of the Russian peacekeeping forces in the province, the Georgians are continuing to fire on Russian positions in the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali despite claims that they have withdrawn. On Monday an AFP reporter in Tskhinvali confirmed that there had been heavy artillery firing on the city all night coming from the southern city outskirts and described scenes of destruction in what is the separatists’ main city.

          On Monday, Saakashvili said Russia “wants to replace the government in Tbilisi” in order to control strategic energy routes. He said Georgian troops had killed “several hundred” Russian troops and shot down 80-90 Russian planes. Russian defense officials said they had lost 18 soldiers and four planes since the conflict began.

    • @”And sure enough: the same Americans, who took Kosovo from Serbia, helped a revolution that replaced a sane man Shevardnadze with a new insane fascist hawk: Saakashvili”

      But Michael, you are an American are you not? This means you are responsible.

      There was no “genocide” against Ossetians in 1991-92, there was however a nasty little war which involved extremists on BOTH sides. However the Ossetians did commit a genocide against the Ingush in North Ossetia, and comitted massive ethnic cleansing of Georgians in 2008.

      As Latynina rightly points out, there is NO intention of comitting genocide on Ossetians in Georgia. More Ossetians live in Tbilisi than in Tshkinvali.

      Ossetians have the opportunity to study at schools which teach in Ossetian. They are completely integrated into Georgian society.

      Many former separatists such as Dimitry Sanakoyev (former separatist minister of defence) are now opposed to both Kokoity’s russian backed fascist statelet, and to his (Russian sponsored) genocide against their Georgian neighbors.

      Having presided over the genocidal campaigns against Georgians in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, how can anyone trust that Russia will not commit a 4th genocide against Georgians in less than 2 decades?

      • > But Michael, you are an American are you not? This means you are responsible.

        Yes, i am. That’s why I am so outraged that my government would use me and my tax money (I pay $hundreds of thousands per year) to commit such an indecency.

        However, back in 1999, like many other Libertarians, I wrote numeorus indignant articles in Usenet begging Clinton not to attack Serbia. That’s when I first started to object to the American foreign policy: over Kosovo.

        > There was no “genocide” against Ossetians in 1991-92

        Read what your own beloved authority

        http://sojcc.ru/eng_news/295.html

        «Tragedy of South Ossetia: Boundless Genocide»

        Vasso Abaev

        The essence of genocide… This gravest criminal case has been being done with impunity for several years already by the authorities of the Christian Georgian republic against one of the national minorities, against Christian population of Ossetia. Monstrous cruelty of the planned extermination of the population of South Ossetia, plundering and ravaging houses, social and cultural institutions shocked everyone who heard about it from the eye-witnesses and TV programs. Neither Hilter’s criminals, nor Saddam Hussein’s brutalities in Kuwait and Kurdistan are comparable with them.

        The happening in South Ossetia is understood as a nightmare. You see it with your own eyes but you don’t want to believe it. After all we speak about two people who live in friendship and accordance for centuries.

        Leader of the Georgian neo-fascists Gamsahurdia once visited Kahetia. Peering at the demographic situation in that region he was outraged. Some “Lakcs”, some “Tatars” intruded on this “fully Georgian” land. “Lacks” are Dagestans, “Tatars” – Azerbaidjanians. They must be turned out. When all “guests” are driven away the desired territorial Ethnocracy will come.

        In the interview to the London paper “The Times” Mr. Gamsahurdia said that Armenians and Azerbaidjanians form together 20% of the population of Georgia – this is a threat to the Georgian nation, the majority of them are enemies (“Sovetskaja Kultura”, 16 March, 1991).

        Mr. Gamsahurdia came to South Ossetia to enkindle by Georgians enmity towards Ossets. In the interview to one Holland paper he called Ossets “criminals” (he calls “criminals” everyone whom he doesn’t like). He stated outraging that Ossets are “uneducated wild people”.

        The propaganda of Georgian fascists doesn’t stop in front of any fabrication so as to defile “wild” Ossets. In their zoological anger Georgian chauvinists rise to such absurd confirmations that I feel ashamed of them.

        “It not only smells with fascism there but it stinks”, Rafael Alberti… In those events the Georgian ethnocratic clique disclosed itself as an organization of a fascist type.

        Hitler invades Austria and states: there is no Austria, there is German land “Ostmark. Gamsahurdia invades South Ossetia and states: there is no South Ossetia, there is Georgian land “Samachablo”. But you’ll not stand out on bare force. Austria again became Austria, South Ossetia will receive its status of South Ossetia again.

        Fascist character of the ethnocratic regime in Georgia is not a secret for anybody any longer either here or abroad. An influential in the USA newspaper writes: “Russian democrats and Western diplomats… are alarmed by the statements of Gamsahurdia against other nationalities; by his accent on special rights of ethnic Georgians, by his habit to call his opponents “criminals”, by his falling back from democracy and press… His positions are alike to fascism, his statement become more and more revolting”.

        Fascism and mafia go hand in hand. In Georgia the Government is not shy of appealing to dregs of the society, using them as a means of maneuver and to the criminal world to do dirty work. It regards to South Ossetia first of all, where Gamsahurdia wages real war of extermination.

        What a democracy may be if the Government violates human rights, when racial aggression is being practiced towards one of its national minorities? Thanks to Gamsahurdia, Osset people are robbed, starved, beaten, kidnapped. Tortured and killed!

        And if they don’t regain consciousness it would be the turn for Adjarians, Abkhazians. Meskhets, Kurds, Greeks, Armenians…

        Vasso Abaev

        Moscow, 20 May, 1991

        • Sigh, once again, as Mr Abayev once again stated, he also believed that South Ossetia was inseparable from Georgia, and should remain part of Georgia.

          “Still do not want to be engulfed by a wave of emotion, a wave of protest and indignation. I want to be objective and look if there were Ossetian side with any hasty, ill-considered actions that provoked and aggravated the confrontation. And I must admit that such actions were. I am referring to the proclamation of sovereignty, geared exclusively to Moscow with the prospect of unification of South and North Ossetia. Gravity South Ossetians to their northern countrymen humanly understandable. But in geopolitical terms it is wrong. Main Caucasian style ridge – the natural border between Georgia and Ossetia, and any attempt to blur this boundary will necessarily entail the state of permanent conflict between Georgians and Ossetians.
          Two years ago the editors of Radio Liberty has asked me to speak on the situation in South Ossetia. Let me quote from this speech.
          Ethnic conflict in South Ossetia – a tragic mistake. It’s time to change their mind back relations between the two peoples in the mainstream of traditional friendship. To do this, first of all, put an end to talk about rejection of South Ossetia from Georgia. None of the Georgian government will never accept this, because it would mean a violation of the territorial integrity of Georgia. Give an example for comparison. In the south-western France, there is a National District of the Basques. These Basques enjoy full cultural autonomy, preserve their language, have their own schools, maintain vital ties with their brethren in the Iberian Peninsula. But if they wished, along with its territory to join Spain, France for anything this would not have agreed, because it would violate the territorial integrity of states. Pyrenean mountain range – the natural border between France and Spain, and it will remain unchanged. The same is true of the border between South and North Ossetia between Georgia and Russia. Who wants peace between the South Ossetians and Georgians should always reject the idea of joining South Ossetia to North. Who wants peace between Georgia and Russia, should also leave this idea. That realnost.Nekotorye my Georgian friends expressed their satisfaction with my speech on the radio “Freedom” and believed that it is possible to find a mutually acceptable solution on all the contentious issues round table.

          Reconciliation is still possible.
          Many of those who were direct witnesses of events in South Ossetia, expressing doubts about the possibility of reconciliation. Too many say they have accumulated on both sides of hostility and anger. I think they’re wrong. I believed and believe that every person and every nation has the energy coexists good and evil energy. And if in some periods of the energy of evil wins, in any case not despair and think that it is – forever. The energy required good will find its way, and then the former enemies join hands and say: “Are we not, first of all – the people, and then the Georgians and Ossetians.”
          Enmity between the nations themselves do not incite people, and politicians who manipulate people. Hence, the primary task – to free people of influence each of their politicians.
          All emerging issues of territorial, administrative, economic, cultural considerations must be addressed for a round table in a spirit of mutual goodwill and understanding.

          http://sojcc.ru/res/93.html

          He still insists that South Ossetia should remain part of a greater Georgian republic.

          Enough said.

  56. More on the Ossetians predliction for genocidal behaviour

    Origins of the conflict
    During the Russian conquest of the Caucasus, part of the Ingush territory was colonized by Ossetians and Russians. Russian General Evdokimov and Ossetian colonel Kundukhov in Opis No. 436 “gladly reported”, that the result of colonization of Ingush land was successful:

    Ingush village Ghazhien-Yurt was renamed Stanitsa Assinovskaya in 1847,
    Ingush village Ebarg-Yurt was renamed Stanitsa Troitskaya in 1847,
    Ingush town Dibir-Ghala was renamed Stanitsa Sleptsovskaya in 1847,
    Ingush village Magomet-Khite was renamed Stanitsa Voznesenskaya in 1847,
    Ingush village Akhi-Yurt was renamed Stanitsa Sunzhenskaya in 1859,
    Ingush village Ongusht was renamed Stanitsa Tarskaya in 1859,
    Ingush town Ildir-Ghala was renamed Stanitsa Karabulakskaya in 1859,
    Ingush village Alkhaste was renamed Stanitsa Feldmarshalskaya in 1860,
    Ingush village Tauzen-Yurt was renamed Stanitsa Vorontsov-Dashkov in 1861,
    Ingush village Sholkhi was renamed Khutor Tarski in 1867.

    The Russians also built the fortress Vladikavkaz (meaning: “Ruler of the Caucasus”) on the former location of the Ingush village of Zaur. In 1924 the Ingush Autonomous Oblast was created.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11]

    It included the Prigorodny district and part of Vladikavkaz, populated mainly by ethnic Ingush. In 1934, by the Soviet decree from Moscow, the Ingush Autonomous Republic was merged with Chechen Autonomous Oblast, allocating the Vladikavkaz territories of the Ingush to the newly created North Ossetia, leaving the Prigorodny district under the Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Republic. In 1944, near the end of World War II, the Ingush and the Chechens were accused of collaborating with the Nazis and by order of Stalin hundreds of thousands of Ingush and Chechens were deported to Central Asian and Siberia due to their alleged collaboration with Nazi Germany. Soon after, depopulated Prigorodny district was transferred to North Ossetia.[12]

    In 1957, the repressed Ingush and Chechens were allowed to return to their native land and the Chechen-Ingush Republic was restored, with the Prigorodny district keft under the control of North Ossetia. Soviet authorities prevented Ingush from returning to their territory in Prigorodny district, however, Ingush families managed to move in, purchase houses back from the Ossetians and resettle the district in greater numbers.[12] This gave rise to the idea of “restoring historical justice” and “returning native lands”, among the Ingush population and intelligentsia, which contributed to the already existing tensions between ethnic Ossetians and Ingush. Between 1973 and 1980 the Ingush voiced their demands for the reunification of the Prigorodny district with Ingushetia by staging various protests and meetings in Grozny.

    The situation deteriorated in early 1991, when the Ingush openly declared their rights to the Prigorodny district according to the Soviet law adopted by the Supreme Soviet of the USSR on April 26, 1991, in particular the third and the sixth article on “territorial rehabilitation.” The law gave the Ingush legal grounds for their demands, which caused serious turbulence in a region in which many people had free access to weapons, resulting in an armed conflict between ethnic Ingush population of the Prigorodny district and Ossetian armed militias from Vladikavkaz.[13]

    [edit] Armed conflict
    Intercommunal violence rose steadily in the area of the Prigorodny district, to the east of the Terek River, despite the introduction of 1,500 Soviet Internal Troops to the area.

    During the summer and early autumn of 1992, there was a steady increase in the militancy of Ingush nationalists. At the same time, there was a steady increase in incidents of organized harassment, kidnapping and rape against Ingush inhabitants of North Ossetia by their Ossetian neighbours, police, security forces and militia.[1] Ingush fighters marched to take control over Prigorodny district and on the night of October 30, 1992, open warfare broke out, which lasted until November 6. While Ingush militias were fighting the Ossetians in the district and on the outskirts of the North Ossetian capital Vladikavkaz, Ingush from elsewhere in North Ossetia were forcibly evicted and expelled from their homes. Russian interior forces actively participated in the fighting and sometimes led Ossetian fighters into battle.[1]

    On October 31, 1992, a high-level Russian delegation arrived to stop the violence, however, the first deployment of Russian peacekeepers did not begin until early November. Although Russian troops often intervened to prevent some acts of violence by Ossetian police and republican guards, the stance of the Russian peacekeeping forces was strongly pro-Ossetian,[12] not only objectively as a result of its deployment, but subjectively as well. President Boris Yeltsin issued a decree, that the Prigorodny district was to remain part of North Ossetia on November 2.

    The hostilities and reprisals in North Ossetia produced approximately 590 deaths, 1,000 injured and 1,200 hostages among Ingush civilians as well as 65,000 Ingush and 9,000 Ossetian refugees.[1] 52 Ossetians were killed during the conflict.

    [edit] Allegations of ethnic cleansing
    According to Helsinki Human Rights Watch, war crimes and ethnic cleansing were committed by Ossetian police and republican guards against Ingush civilians. Human Rights Watch collected numerous video and photo materials showing extreme brutality carried out by Ossetian police and republican guards against Ingush inhabitants of the district. Helsinki Watch published its report on human rights violations and war crimes, with detailed description of massacres of the Ingush civilians during the events of October and November, in April 1996.[14]

    The pressure from Moscow and the Russian-mediated Ossetian-Ingush agreement of 1995 induced the North Ossetian authorities to allow Ingush refugees from four settlements in the Prigorodny district to return to their homes. The return of most refugees had been blocked by the local government and only the Ossetians had been able to return since. Meanwhile, the former Ingush homes and settlements in the district have been gradually occupied by the Ossetian refugees from Georgia.

    On October 11, 2002, the presidents of Ingushetia and North Ossetia signed the agreement for “promoting cooperation and neighbourly relations” between the republics, in which Ingush refugees and human rights advocates invested much hope. However, the Beslan hostage crisis of 2004 hampered the return process and worsened Ossetian-Ingush relations.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetian%E2%80%93Ingush_conflict

  57. At the end of the 8th century, the ruler of this united west Georgian state, nephew of Leon I, Leon II took advantage of the difficult home and foreign affairs in Byzantine Empire, set free from its vassalage and declared himself king. The state founded by Leon II, which encompassed the whole of western Georgia and stretched from Nikopsia to the Chorokhi gorge and from the Black Sea to Likhi Ridge, was referred to as ‘the Kingdom of the Abkhazs’ and their kings, as the ‘Kings of the Abkhazs’ in 11th century and later Georgian written sources. It was then that the concept of Abkazia expanded to include entire west Georgia. Abkhazia proper came to denote one part of it. Similar facts have many times been noted in the history of Georgia. For example, in the 4th century, the west Georgian state consolidated on the initiative of the Lazi, was called Lazica; united united under the hegemony of Kakheti in the 780s, in parallel with the ‘Kingdom of the Abkhazs’, Kakhet-Kukhet-Gardabani was called Kakheti Bishopric.

    ‘The Kingdom of the Abkhazs’ is a Georgian, namely a west Georgian state, inhabited chiefly by the Georgian population. This is the assertion of not only Georgian historians, but also of the best-known Abkhaz historians, Z. Anchabadze and G. Dzidzaria.

    Different viewpoints are expressed with respect to the ethnic affiliation of ‘the kings of the Abkhazs’. Some scholars consider them to be Greek since they were descendants of the rulers of Byzantine Empire (archonts), while others associate them either with the non-Georgian Abkhazs or the Georgian Abkhazs. All of these three opinions are propositions. However, it is of note that 10th century Armenian historian Hovhannes Draskhanakertsi (Catholicos John) refers to this state as Egrisi, and the kings – the kings of as the Egrs. Being a contemporary of these events, he thus identifies this state, Egrisi, with western Georgia, and its kings as Georgians. 12th century Armenian historian Vardan the Great calls them descendants of Vakhtang Gorgasali, i.e. for him, these are Georgians, descendants of king of Kartli. It is also to be mentioned that it is not only their ethnic background (though it is also of interest), but their national self-consciousness that is essential for history. Judging by their national self-consciousness and state-building efforts, 9th-11th century kings of the ‘Kingdom of the Abkhazs’, i.e. western Georgia, are Georgian kings of the Georgian state. It is essential that with its language, writing system, culture, religion and policy the Kingdom of the Abkhazs was a truly Georgian state, and its kings – Georgians considering the same features. Their Georgian national self-consciousness and the mode of public thinking can be illustrated by the decision of Leon II, who undertook to move the capital of the state from the fortified city of Anakopia in the Kingdom of the Abkhazs to Kutaisi, one of the ancient Georgian cities and an important Georgian cultural centre.

    The most obvious manifestation of the efforts of the kings of the Abkhazs aimed at building a single Georgian state was an ecclesiastical policy pursued by them after gaining political independence.

    The Patriarchate of Constantinople periodically made up lists of subordinated eparchies, the so-called ‘notations’, which provide information on the large-scale church reforms implemented by the kings of the Abkhazs.

    From the end of the 9th century, the western Georgian ecclesiastical centres (Sebastopol from the 10th century) incorporated into the Patriarchate of Constantinople were no more mentioned in the notations. It was on the initiative of the kings of the ‘Abkhazs’ that these centres withdrew from the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and later united with the rest of western Georgian eparchies under the Catholicos of the Abkhazs. Later, again with the efforts of the kings of the ‘Abkhazs’ and the support of the Mtskheta Catholicate, they became subordinated to the Mtskheta See and united with the all-Georgian Church. After this act, Catholicos Ioane IV of Kartli (1080-1001) was conferred with the title of Patriarch and came to be referred to as the Patriarch of Kartli and the Whole of the East (i.e. of all Georgia) (Parkhali inscriptions). This is how the consolidation of the Georgian Church came to an end, which preceded and prepared grounds for the political unification.

    With the aim of eliminating Greek influence, the kings of the Abkhazs abolished the Episcopal Sees founded by Constantinople and established new, Georgian bishoprics instead. For example, Giorgi II founded Chkondidi Bishopric, Leon III – Mokvi and Bagrat III – Bedia. These bishoprics served as Georgian cultural centres. E.g. Mokvi Church had a rich library. Of the manuscripts surviving to our day, of particular note is an illuminated Gospel copied in 1300 by Daniel Mokveli (Daniel of Mokvi). The manuscript testifies to the high level of writing tradition at Mokvi. Patriarch Dositeo of Jerusalem (who visited Mokvi in 1659) noted that according to the inscriptions on the church, the walls were painted in the reign of King Davit Aghmashenebeli (David the Builder). The well-known Georgian historian, T. Zhordania wrote that Mokvi inscriptions were deliberately erased by ‘ill-wishers’ of Georgia and the ‘ignorant’. There is only one photo negative of the inscriptions commemorating ‘Archbishop Grigol of Mokvi’ that survives. Comments of the Mokvi manuscripts and Georgian historical records preserve names of 12th-17th century Mokvi archbishops.

    If the Kingdom of the ‘Abkhazs’ had not been a Georgian state and its kings Georgian kings, the Church would not have separated from the Patriarchate of Constantinople and if separated, would have established itself as an Abkhazian Church proper instead of consolidating with and subordinating itself to the Catholicate of Mtskheta; Neither Georgian liturgies would have been established.

    Beginning from the 9th century the Georgian language became dominant in the Kingdom of the Abkhazs: Georgian became an official language and the one used by the Church. Inscriptions on churches, stone blocks, bridges and other structures were all made in Georgian. The history of the kings of the Abkhazs Apkhazta Mepeta Divani was written in the Georgian language at the royal court.

    Ancient inscriptions on the territory of Abkhazia date from the 9th century. The disruption of the united Georgian feudal monarchy and the political, economic and cultural decline of Georgia beginning from the 17th century, which followed the Ottoman aggression of western Georgia, is evident in the epigraphic works in Abkhazia. From that time onwards less and less inscriptions were made in Abkhazia. However, neither other language inscriptions were made. According to the historical evidence, liturgy in western Georgia and in Abkhazia in particular was held in Georgian and church donors, architects, masons and the congregation, i.e. the local population belonged to the Georgian ethno-cultural world. This evidence also supports the statement made in the work of the 10th century eminent Georgian ecclesiastical figure, Giorgi Merchule, according to which ‘And Kartli consists of that spacious land in which the liturgy and all prayers are said in the Georgian language’, i.e. Kartli (Georgia) includes Abkhazia.
    Between the 9th through the 11th century the Kingdom of the Abkhazs was together with other Georgian kingdoms and principalities actively engaged in the efforts aimed at the consolidation of all Georgian lands into a single state. Beginning from the 860s, it even played a dominant role. The inscriptions at Armazi, Samtsevrisi, Eredvi, Tsirkoli, Kumurdo and other churches confirm the supremacy of the authority of Giorgi I, Constantine II, Giorgi II and Leon III in Shida (Inner) Kartli and Javakheti.

    Appointed by Demetre III (967-975) as eristavi (governor) of Kartli, Ioane Marushisdze put forth a plan of the consolidation of Georgia, which was realized under the leadership of Davit III of Tao and thanks to the relentless efforts of Ioane Marushisdze himself. Bagrat Bagrationi, Bagrat III (978-1014) was crowned king of the ‘Abkhazs’ and ‘Georgians’ in Kutaisi. The first title which Bagrat received was the ‘King of the Abkhazs’ (978). The name of Bagrat III was added to the Apkhazta Mepeta Divani. By doing so, Bargat III formally confirmed the legitimacy of his royal authority in western Georgia. Upon the death of Davit III (+1001), his titled was extended to include the ‘King of Kartvelis (Georgians)’, and after taking Kakhet-Hereti (1008-1010) he was referred to as the ‘King of the Abkhazs (i.e. western Georgia), Kartvelis (i.e. Kartl-Meskhi), Kakhs and Hers’, title that Georgian kings retained unchanged. The fact that the king of ‘the Abkhazs’ was the first mentioned in the title explains a large number of instances when in foreign sources ‘Abkhazia’ and ‘Abkhaz’ were used to denote ‘Georgia’ and ‘Georgian’ respectively, and the kings of the Georgian feudal monarchy, Giorgi I, Bagrat IV, Davit Aghmashenebeli, Tamar and others were referred to as either Abazg/Abkhaz, or Gurji, or Iberi.

    Across Abkhazia, namely Sokhumi, ran a road which had a great trade and political importance. This is why a single-span bridge was built over the Besleti River, which fully meets contemporary standards of bridge construction and has a capacity to bear a chain of vehicles with a total weight of eight tons. The bridge preserves an inscription glorifying Bagrat III. Similar bridges also survive in other Georgian regions: in Rkoni (Shida Kartli) and Dondalo (Achara).

    Beginning from the 11th century to the early 18th century, before establishing as an independent principality, Abkahzia was incorporated into united Georgia, Imereti kingdom and Odishi principality on various grounds. Abkhaz eristavis and later mtavaris (rulers) were from the Shervashidze feudal house.

    Difficult home and foreign affairs in Georgia created favorable conditions for the settlement of the north Caucasian tribes, the Apsuas. Affected by their raids and the Ottoman aggression, Catholicos-Patriarch Evedemon I Chkhetidze of Abkhazia (1557-1565) had to move the centre of the Catholicate from Bichvinta to Gelati (Bichvinta Church was built under Bagrat III, at the end of the 10th and beginning of the 11th century. The church preserves 16th century mural fragments. In the 19th century, the walls of the church were whitewashed by the Russians).

    Apsua is a name given by the contemporary Abkhazs to themselves. They refer to themselves as ‘Apsua’, their language the ‘Apsua language’, and their state – ‘Apsni’. Until the 17th century the Apsuas lived on the Kuban River in the north Caucasus. According to the 1st century Roman historian, Pliny, the place of living of the ‘Absoe’, i.e. ‘Apsua’ is in the north Caucasus. In the same place is located Absvas regi, i.e. ‘the land of the Apsua’ and their fortress Akva on a map drawn up by the Italian cartographer Jacopo Gastaldi in 1561. A map of western Georgia, made in 1738, already shows Akva, an Abkhaz (Apsua) name of Tskhumi in place of an old Georgian city of Tskhumi (Sokhumi). A map of western Georgia, made in 1738, has Akva, an Abkhaz (Apsua) name of Tskhumi instead of Tskhumi (Sokhumi). Nearby is Tskhumi Fortress (the original of the map is kept in Moscow ЦГВИА ВУА, and a copy in the National Centre of Manuscripts RT IV, #1, Tbilisi). That the initial homeland of the Apsuas was in the highlands, is obvious from folk legends (they had no script of their own). The Apsuas brought their own names, religious traditions and customary laws to Georgia. It is therefore that if before that time nobody distinguished, either from the social or religious point of view, between the land inhabited by the Abkhazs and the population of Georgian and western Georgia proper, in particular, beginning from the 1630s the situation changed markedly. In the 14th century there were no Abkhazs (Apsuas) living in Tskhumi. According to the bishop of Sokhumi Catholic Mission, Pietro Gerladi, in 1330 Tskhumi was inhabited by the Georgians, Muslims and Jews. The Abkhazs may have lived in Tskhumi at that time, but for Geraldi they are Georgians. The works of the foreign writers who were contemporaries or witnesses of these events (Italian Giovanni and Luke, Archangelo Lamberti, Turkish Evlia Chelebi and others) highlight that the way of life, dressing and the spoken language the Abkhazs (Apsuas) was different from those of the Georgians and similar to those of the Circassians.

    In the middle of the 17th century, Abkhazia still included Dranda, Mokvi, Ilori, Bedia, Bichvinta and villages on the other side of the Enguri River. To protect from the intruding Abkhazs, Levan II Dadiani (1611-1657), ruler of Samegrelo, fortified and expanded Kelasuri wall, but the defense of the country under the Ottoman rule and the political aggression, appeared to be more and more difficult. Apart from that, from the 17th through the 18th century Ottoman Turkey tried to incite confrontation between the Georgians and the Abkhazs by spreading Islam.

    This is how gradually the Apsuas occupied part of Abkhazia – a historical Georgian region. Contemporaries called them the Abkhazs because they lived in Abkhazia. According to medieval Georgian Law, foreigners who establish themselves on the Georgian land became local (but not aborigine). It was through Georgian that the name ‘Abkhaz’ entered Russian and other languages.

    After the abolition of the Kingdom of Abkhazia by the Russians (1864), Abkhazia was incorporated into Kutaisi province, first under the name of ‘Sokumi Military Department’ and later, in 1883, as “Sokhumi District’. Thus the name ‘Abkhazia’ (Apkhazeti) was removed not by Georgians, as some scholars claim, but by the Russians. The Georgians, on the contrary, restored the name Abkhazia in the Georgian Democratic Republic (1918-1921), an independent state of the Georgians established after the fall of the empire (1918) and in line with the constitution of the country, granted a status of autonomy to it. The autonomy was recognized by the government of the Russian Soviet Federal Socialist Republic (RSFSR) under the Treaty of 7 May 1920

    http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11940&Itemid=132

  58. So explain Michael, how all those 9th century and other medieval Georgian churches, filled with Georgian inscriptions, and the bridges with Georgian inscriptions to King Bagrad & later Queen Tamara got there?

    • He is an idiot :) he can’t explain a nything. he’s an in closet putinist

      • Kate, у тебя, наверное большая любовь к Путину, раз ты его так часто поминаешь. И я могу тебя понять: наглый, песпринципный, занимается спортом… мужчина твоей мечты.

        • lol yes the man of my dreams is a murderous dictator and a war criminal

          you’re an idiot viktor

          • причем тут убийцы? дело не в этом: привлекает сам типаж! ты думаешь зачем мальчики в 13-14 лет начинают дергать девочек за косы и тому подобное? да это же признак сексуальной заинтересованности, также, как у тебя к Путину!

  59. Kate wrote:
    > lol yes the man of my dreams is a murderous dictator and a war criminal

    Since you imply that “a murderous dictator and a war criminal” is not your type, I conclude that you don’t like Mishu Saakashvili, do you?

    • That’s sad. Look how sexy he is when he is mad. He even eats his own ties on camera fro BBC TV:


      Saakashvili eats own tie on air BBC

      And he **is** mad. Just look at his facial expressions.

    • Or watch him laugh hysterically. And I mean HYSTERICALLY:

      • This is knockout

      • Not only is Saakashvili insane, but he is the worst coward. When he was in Gori in August 2008, there was some noise – either a Georgian plane flying in the sky or a sound of a distant Georgian gun. Nobody paid any attention. The cameraman, taking the video, didn’t even shake his camera. But as soon as he heard this noise, Saakashvili went mad, started running and covering his head in fear. It took many-many bodyguards to subdue him. Judge for yourself:

        Just watch his scared insane face. Like an infant who hears a cat meow for the first time and thinks it will attack him…

        • lol Micahel Tal , why are you so angry at Saakashvili, he got scared so what not everybody is as brave as you especially in war zone when Russians are bombing from airplanes.

          • > not everybody is as brave

            Almost everybody is. Look at the video again. You will see that nobody around Saakashvili got scared one bit. Only he. He is a coward and a psychopath. Of all great Georgians, why did you elect him?

            Yes, I am angry at him. I always loved Georgians and never expected that things would turn so ugly first with Gamsakhurdia and now with Saakashvili. It is their madness that has prevented a solution to the ethnic crisis and who prevented Georgians from enjoying democracy.

  60. Russian leaders, and Russia itself, suffer from what could be termed small-dick complex. They know nobody likes them, and the only “relationships” they can have are obtained through force and brutality. So they get really, really angry when somebody openly calls them out on their frustrations and inferiority complexes. That explains the pathological Russian hatred of Saakashvili, whose main fault (even bigger than his pro-western/democratic stance) is that he made fun of Putin’s height, calling him Liliputin (and Putin might have took that in other ways as well). Only a truly messed-up Russian psychopath like Putin could have started a war and a brutal campaign of rape, looting and ethnic cleansing over a slight against his manhood.

    Unfortunately, this national small-dick complex also disturbingly translates in individual behavior. If you think of every single war Russia has been involved in, I don’t think there is any other culture in the world with such a propensity for rape, and I don’t know if there is any other culture where the women are so desperate to find mates from other cultures.

    • What nonsense? Oh who have complex, so it is in America. The behavior of Americans in foreign policy like the behavior of
      teenagers 13-14 years: arrogant, impatient and infinitely stupid!

  61. Hehe, Viktor, I was sure you’d reply. Touche, eh? :)

    • You think that is touch me? No, sir.
      By the way, this answer means that you have swallowed the bait.
      And you just have nothing to say.

      • Why are you getting so defensive Viktor? :)

        • I just entertained. Soon you will all get tired of me and I’ll find myself a new toy. This site, I think, is designed to entertain the Russian.

          Maybe this site is created by Putin himself, to set the Russian against the West and America in particular.

          First Americans seemed to be good, but what we see now? .. La Russophobe!
          So it is, it’s definitely the handiwork of the Kremlin!

          • This blog should be a must reading for both people who like to make fun of morons, and those who want to see what kind of retards hate Russia.

            • The only non-stupid russophobe here is Felix, and he is a Jewish-Russian emigrant. I wonder if there exists a non-Russian speaking russophobe who does not suffer from mental retardation…

              • Now Michael, you suffer from retardation, hypocrisy, and a seeming inability to satisfy women.

                I guess you are a bit like the President of Russia who enjoys kissing young boys on their bodies.

              • By the way Michael, I am sorry to say that your dream partner is taken already.

                LOL

  62. Well, Tal’s (self-confessed) intimate knowledge of the gay nightlife in Moscow should be a pretty good clue for why his wife left him. I wonder what his online buddies Viktor and Agrippa think of his gay romps and supposed Jewishness.

  63. I’m not antisimit and not homophobic, unlike you, A. If M. Tal is a Jew or gay – I don’t care.

    • That makes you a very rare type of Russian, or a liar.

      Gee, I wonder which it is?

      Russian anti-semitism is very well documented.

      So is Russian homophobia.

  64. Well, I’m glad you’re not anti-Semitic, but I recall earlier that you equated Jews and Gypsies with “rootless moral monsters.”

    • I was referring to Russian, which migrate from Russia. And the Jews and Gypsies let them do what they want – all I care.

      • Well, that’s what Michael Tal did: he immigrated from Russia to the evil USA. And you’re also an immigrant, since you live in Tatarstan (an occupied country). So you never replied to an earlier question: are you a Gypsy, a Jew or a “rootless moral monster”? :)

        • Repeat for morons: Tatarstan – is PART of Russia. But I live in Chuvashia.

          • And I repeat for morons: Tatarstan is a separate nation (with its own language and people), that is currently occupied by Russia. Same with Chuvashia (another Turkic nation). So whether you like it or not, you’re an immigrant yourself, or the descendent of immigrants (nothing wrong with being an immigrant, but quit the hypocrisy and the idiotic nationalism)

            • If you are an American, and white, then you are no doubt the occupier. As for me, I am the same as the Chuvash and Russian. For me there is no difference between the peoples of Russia.

              • I am not American, nor do I live in the US, so I’m not occupying anybody :) You may think that Russians are all the same, but the fact remains that there is a multitude of very different nationalities that form the so-called “Russian Federation:” Slavic, Finno-Ugric, Turkic, Mongoloid etc.

  65. Since America has long been an atheistic country (just like the Soviet Union) and Russia do not, then you, if you are an American, does not understand what is written in the Bible: Gays do not inherit the kingdom of God … For many Russian religion is an important part of life. But it does not make them homophobic, antisimits …
    поиск

  66. Russian are the traditional way of thinking, but they are not xenophobes like you!

    • HHehe, yeah, as other Russian commenters have repeatedly shown here, Russians aren’t xenophobes, they just hate Poles (and Central Europeans in general), Balts, Caucasians, Ukrainians, Americans, Jews, Central Asians “un-patriotic” Russians etc.

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