Russia: Hater Nation

Vladimir Shlapentokh, a professor of sociology at Michigan State University, writing in the New York Times:

Xenophobia exists in all societies, past and present. It goes back to the socio-biological nature of human beings and the distinction of “ours” and “others” in the human psyche.

Aggressive xenophobia, however, with its open declaration of hatred, discrimination against and physical persecution of “others,” is a purely social phenomenon. It is almost always, in my opinion, a product of policies shaped by a ruling elite in order to acquire and preserve political and economic power.

The case of anti-Americanism in contemporary Russia is a perfect illustration.

It is generally believed in Russia today, as well as in the rest of the world, that anti-Americanism stems from deep-seated feelings held by the average citizen.

This view of anti-Americanism as originating from below, as embedded in the psychology of the masses, is consistent with the opinions of many Russian political scientists, sociologists, journalists and politicians, who spread the notion that most Russians dislike and object to democracy. Some see this as a consequence of a thousand years of Russian authoritarianism; others attribute it to the heritage of Soviet communism.

In my opinion, both schools of thought strongly exaggerate the impact of authoritarian tradition on the Russian people. While traditions may contribute to the character of a society, I believe the crucial role in shaping Russian public opinion belongs to the current regime.

Available data does not support a “visceral hatred of America” of the sort portrayed by many journalists and politicians in Russia. Anti-Americanism in Russia comes from above. It is the elite, through its ability to control and manipulate the media, education and literature, which has the power to either foster or stifle xenophobia.

There is no question that Russians have xenophobic tendencies, fed over the centuries by the czars and the Russian Orthodox Church. In the first decade after the Russian Revolution, the new elite chose ethnic tolerance as their strategy, and generally succeeded in implementing it. In the 1920s and early 1930s, Stalin called upon the Russians to combine “Russian revolutionary élan with an American business-like approach to everything.”

But in the early 1930s, Stalin replaced ethnic tolerance — which the Bolsheviks called termed “internationalism” — with an ideology of Russian chauvinism and anti-Semitism.

This new turn in the Kremlin’s ethnic policy was again supported by the masses. As a student at Kiev University in the late 1940s, I watched with great sadness as the plague of anti-Semitism spread throughout society. My friends, both Russian and Jewish, who strongly believed in Lenin’s “internationalism” as an unshakable revolutionary dogma, were similarly amazed and horrified.

After World War II, the United States became a major target of Soviet propaganda, and that lasted until the end of the Soviet system. In the 1960s and 1970s, the Russian sociologist Boris Grushin found that the average Soviet citizen had a very negative image of America.

With Mikhail Gorbachev’s perestroika, the Kremlin’s ethnic policy shifted once more to ethnic tolerance. The change was remarkable — the image of America in Russian public opinion changed radically and quickly for the better.

When I returned to Russia as a visiting American scholar in the late 1980s and early 1990s, I saw — this time with joy — how anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism was fading away.

Now, under Vladimir Putin, xenophobia has been restored as a leading element of the official ideology. This is evident by the conformist anti-American bias expressed by all members of the government, as well as most deputies in Parliament and most of the journalists, political analysts, writers and cultural figures loyal to the regime.

The animosity toward the United States is fomented by Russia’s leaders primarily for domestic consumption — to sustain and cultivate the image of Russia as a besieged fortress and of Putin as the savior of the country.

Russia’s cultivation of hatred for its neighbors Ukraine and Georgia, as well as for Poland and the Baltic republics, is a part of the same strategy, in which ideology clearly takes precedence over the actual geopolitics.

The roots of anti-Americanism in Russia do not go very deep. Most ordinary Russians are rather receptive to Americans, their lifestyle and their political and economic system. These positive feelings would be quickly revealed if the Kremlin changed its policy toward the United States.

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43 responses to “Russia: Hater Nation

  1. Most Russians would bolt tomorrow to the hated US if given a visa and resettlement help.

    America is hated as a matter of political parroting in the “have not” world along the lines of “America is evil, but, can you use your connections so I can immigrate there”.

    Past the Kremlin anti-American blather Russians haven’t failed to notice that Americans have never been on their soil with a gun pointed at their heads.

    • > Past the Kremlin anti-American blather Russians haven’t failed to notice that Americans have never been on their soil with a gun pointed at their heads.

      Past anti-Russian blather, Americans haven’t failed to notice that Russians have never been on their soil with a gun pointed at their heads.

  2. agreed penny! most russians, if given the choice would move to america in a heartbeat. it’s also interesting how russia has isolated itself from rest of the world. not only that if you notice all of russias neighbors strongly dislike russia and look to the west for protection in fear of being invaided (and those who have experience it know the HORRORS of russian invasion).

  3. I actually have met a number of Russians who would NOT leave Russia (or in my case Ukraine) and who do buy into the “America-as-the-source-of-all-evil” propaganda. The older generation is a good example: already used to everything being the way it is, they probably would be very unhappy anywhere else, just because of having to learn to do things differently.

    • Agree, Asehpe about the older Russians. I’m thinking of the younger generation that have a skill set and don’t have cemented shut Sovok brains, a lot of them would leave. Lot’s of them have left for countries in the EU.

      • I wonder if there exist statistics or some kind of sociological data (e.g., polling) answering these questions:

        1. How many Russians who have an opportunity to leave for the West, voluntarily choose to remain in Russia

        2. What’s the proportion of those who choose to stay do so for political or patriotic reasons (as opposed to family reasons and the like)

        3. How many Russians who did emigrate, then returned

        If there was such data, it would show trends. I agree with you Penny and Kate — after all their frothing at the mouth about horrible America, when the chips are down they seem to leave their beloved Russia and stay here. I think one Russophile on this board, Mr. Tal, is a good example.

        On the other hand, committed racists, xenophobes, and anti-Semites such as Dan, probably would rather remain at the garbage dump that their country is today. Too many blacks, and Hispanics, and Jews, and Asians, and Indians in America, you know…

  4. Speaking of Russian hate, they also hate the disabled.

    Maybe LR should take a look at this.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8302633.stm

    Russia’s disabled suffer neglect and abuse

    By Richard Galpin
    BBC News, Moscow

    The BBC has obtained shocking evidence of the abuse and prejudice which campaigners say is widespread against the estimated 13 million people with disabilities in Russia.

  5. “On the entire planet and throughout all of history, there has never been a regime more evil, more bloody, and, at the same time, more shrewd and cunning than the Bolshevist regime. No other earthly regime – not even the apprentice Nazi regime – can compare with it in terms of the numbers of its victims, or the depth of its infection over so many years, or the scope of its design, or its thoroughly unified totalitarianism.”

    (“The Gulag Archipelago,” Volume 3, Chapter 5).

    So why, then, does the map of Moscow still show a Prospekt Andropova, named for the father of punitive psychiatry and the initiator of the exile of Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Vladimir Bukovsky, and Aleksandr Galich and of the internal exile of Andrei Sakharov? Even at this advanced date, Russia has still not been able to cure herself of the totalitarian infection. It is perfectly psychotic. And they want to “fix” Ukraine’s attitude!

  6. AS, that will do for a start but it is far from enough. Countless towns, streets, and public facilities throughout Russia are still disgraced with the names of stone cold killers. Take just the example of Lenin, the founder of one of the cruelest and bloodiest regimes in world history. When the mayor of Moscow recently tried to change the name of the city\’s Leningradsky railroad station back to its original, Nikolayevsky vokzal, he promptly had his wrists slapped and the name of the killer remains. Why?

    Germany got rid of her Adolf Hitler Platzes and Hermann Goering Strasses ages ago. Russia should do likewise and stop this sick veneration of her own mass murderers.

  7. LES wrote:
    > Leningradsky railroad … the name of the killer remains. Why?

    As a Ukrainian, you should ask your own President Yuschenko why. There are 21 “Lenin Streets” in Ukraine:

    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0_%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0

    There are also thousands of other places and streets in Ukraine named after Communist leaders Even the capital, Kiev, has a multitude of disgusting Commie names like: Street of the Communist International, Street of Agitators, Vladimir Ulyanov Street, but none as disgusting as

    http://100realtycomDOTua/map/strt/5427/

    Улица Дзержинского – Dzerzhinski Street!

    The founder of CheKa and GPU ! The father of NKVD/KGB. The father of Bolshevik Terror! This second most disgusting man in the Soviet history after Stalin still has a street in Kiev named after him!

    http://en.wikipediaDOTorg/wiki/Felix_Dzerzhinsky

    Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky (Polish: Feliks Dzierżyński) was a Polish Communist revolutionary, famous as the founder of the Bolshevik secret police, the Cheka, later known by many names during the history of the Soviet Union. The agency became notorious for large-scale human rights abuses, including torture and mass summary executions, carried out especially during the Red Terror and the Russian Civil War. Dzerzhinsky himself boasted that: “We represent in ourselves organized terror — this must be said very clearly.”[11] and “[The Red Terror involves] the terrorization, arrests and extermination of enemies of the revolution on the basis of their class affiliation or of their pre-revolutionary roles.”[12] … Dzierżyński’s power: from 1921-24, he was Minister of the Interior, head of the Cheka/GPU/OGPU…

    > Germany got rid of her Adolf Hitler Platzes and Hermann Goering Strasses ages ago. Russia should do likewise and stop this sick veneration of her own mass murderers.

    So, it is Russia, not your own Ukraine, that worries you? Leningradsky railroad bothers you, but Dzierżyński Street in Kiev doesn’t. Are you an admirer of Dzierżyński and the NKVD/KGB by any chance?

  8. LES wrote:
    > Leningradsky railroad … the name of the killer remains. Why?

    Oh you don’t like Leningrad? Then how about:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalingrad_(Paris_M%C3%A9tro)

    Stalingrad (Paris Métro)

    Stalingrad is a Paris Métro station on the border between the 10th arrondissement and the 19th arrondissement, located at the Place de Stalingrad, which is named for the Battle of Stalingrad.

  9. > most russians, if given the choice would move to america in a heartbeat

    You know why you said this, Kate? Because this is true of almost ALL countires with standards of livings lower than the West’s. Truly billions of people from all over the World would like to come and work in America and receive American-sized salaries. Of coure, many of them would prefer to return home once they make enough savings.

    As far as Russia goes – yes, some Russians would like to come and work in the USA (Russian brides are evidence to that), but in terms of percentages, fewer Rusisans want to do so than people in most other countries.

    Russians like their home country too much. That’s why historically over the last couple of centuries, many times more Italians, Irish, Polish, Germans and others emigrated to USA than Russians.

    In fact, Russia owned Alaska and had a major fort in California: Fort Ross. But because nobody wanted to move to California, Russia abandoned Fort Ross and sold Alaska.

    The French too are quite fond of their country. That’s why France sold its huge American colonies – Luisiana – to USA.

  10. Actually France sold Louisiana because the Americans were going to overrun it anyway.

    • Exactly. And the reason why the Americans would have had no problem overrunning Lousiana is because there weren’t enough Frenchmen living there to defend it.

  11. Tal, with twisted sovok “logic,” asks why Ukraine still has streets named after sovok/commie killers like lenin, etc.

    Actually, President Yushchenko and others have repeatedly called for the removal of such commie symbols:

    http://blog.kievukraine.info/2009/10/ukrainian-president-calls-for-rid-of.html

    KIEV, Ukraine — At a dedication ceremony to victims of a Soviet mass killing, Ukranian President Viktor Yushchenko spoke in harsh terms of the need for his country to literally tear down symbols of its communist past.

    • “It is time to save our land from these satanic symbols and finally send the idols to the dustbin of history,” said the president in his speech, referring to the fact that many communist-era statues still stand in Ukraine today.

      “It’s time to get the idols of communist leaders out, who scorned, hated and shot our people,” Yushchenko continued.

  12. Here’s a bit more on the “hater nation” – yet another example of the sovok mentality – “мир всем, привет всем” – whose mission and mindset was to kill people:

    http://blog.kievukraine.info/2009/10/ukrainian-president-calls-for-rid-of.html

    “It’s time to get the idols of communist leaders out, who scorned, hated and shot our people,” Yushchenko continued.

    The ceremony took place on Oct. 11 in Demianiv Laz in the Ivano-Frankivsk region of Western Ukraine, where in June 1941 the Soviet secret service slaughtered Ukranian political prisoners.

    The mass graves were unearthed in 1989 after the fall of communism when archival documents were declassified. The bodies of 524 victims from three of the five graves were exhumed and reburied on Oct. 28 that year. Artifacts from the victims have been placed in the memorial museum which the president opened.

    “Five mass graves, hundreds of people killed, priests, teachers, students, intellectuals and ordinary people whose only fault was that they were Ukrainians,” said President Yushchenko.

    In 1960, by the orders of Communist Party leaders, Demyanov Laz was cleared and used for to build housing. By the mid-1980s, the area was covered in debris and remained that way until 1989.

    History of Soviet Suppression

    At the ceremony, the pro-Western head of state who has strained relations with Russia, recalled the harsh history of communist suppression in Ukraine.

    In 1930, there had been mass terror against the national intelligentsia, because, according to Yushchenko, Western Ukraine represented for the Soviet regime a particular danger for their “freedom-loving spirit and independent thought.”

    Then, together with the Red Army, the secret service sent in executioners to Ivano-Frankivsk. According to Yushchenko, they began the mass arrests and executions, torture chambers, prisons filled with innocent people, and transport trains filled with deportees were sent east.

    Once again, in 1939-1941, more than 1.5 million people were affected by the Soviet terror in Western Ukraine, or one out of 10 inhabitants of the region. Yushchenko quoted American historian Jan Gross calculated that this represents three to four times more people than the Germans killed in occupied Poland, an area twice as big as Ukraine.

    In July this year, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe adopted a resolution condemning Stalinism and Nazism in Europe. In Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia Stalinism and Nazism have been convicted at the legislative level.

  13. > Tal, with twisted sovok “logic,” asks why Ukraine still has streets named after sovok/commie killers like lenin, etc.

    Why does Ukraine or any other country still have certain street names? Isn’t the answer obvious: because they have never renamed them.

    > President Yushchenko and others have repeatedly called for the removal of such commie symbols

    Don’t make it look as if renaming a street is as scientifically difficult as to send a man to the Moon. If the Ukrainian politicians wanted to rename all those Lenin Streets, they could have done it long ago. If they haven’t done so – that means that either that they don’t want to do so or that the majority of Ukrainian voters want to keep the old names. What other explanations are there? Is Putin or Medvedev standing with a machine gun in front of all those street signs, threatening to shoot anybody who tries to take these signs down?

    Look, when he set his mind to it, Yuschenko has been able to shove tremendous insults down the throats of the Ukrainian public, like naming numerous streets after Nazi criminals and Holocaust perpetrators Shukhevych and Bendera. Surely, taking down the street sign “Dzierzinski Street” would be quit easy. I mean, lots of people in Ukraine and around the World consider Lenin to be worthy of a street sign, but very few would tolerate “Dzierzinski Street”.

    And in any case, why do you criticise Russia for having Leningradsky Prospekt but don’t mind Paris having Place de Stalingrad?

    • Michael tal,

      Are you a clueless teenager who just reads the kremlin press?

      The Jewish card in Russian operations against Ukraine

      “Ukrainian Nazis”? In other words, some Ukrainians who were supposedly members of Hitler’s National Socialist German Workers Party, the NSDAP, were shooting Jews in Babyn Yar, and not Germans from the Einsatzkommando? “Shukhevych, who was a Nazi”? In other words, Shukhevych, who was supposedly a member of the Nazi Party yet was based in Galicia, was in some fashion involved in the shootings in Babyn Yar? Anyone who says this is either an ignoramus or a disinformation specialist. I hope that Mr. Churkin is at least not an ignoramus.

      I would like to remind Mr. Churkin that from 1939 to 1941 the USSR, whose successor today is the Russian Federation, was an ally of Nazi Germany. How can one forget all those movie reels showing the joint Soviet-German military parades? I would also like to remind him of the way the special disinformation operation targeting Roman Shukhevych, the Commander in Chief of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), is being conducted today. Initially, a story was planted in the mass media, claiming that Shukhevych was an “SS captain.” The rebuttal to the disinformation specialists was that there was never any such rank. Then the disinformation specialists transformed Shukhevych into some sort of Obersturmfuehrer. It was explained to them that in order for an individual to become a member of the SS, he had to expend a lot of effort on proving his Aryan origins, which Shukhevych naturally did not have.

      Then the disinformation specialists planted another story in the mass media, this one claiming that Shukhevych had received a military decoration from Hitler himself. They were reminded that the only person had ever received a military decoration from Hitler was Himmler. According to documents stored in Germany’s Military Archive in Freiburg, the Commander in Chief of the UPA was never awarded any German decoration.

      But the disinformation specialists desperately need to discredit not only General Shukhevych and the UPA but the entire Ukrainian national liberation movement, as well as the president of Ukraine, Viktor Yushchenko.

      So they have resorted to an old Soviet secret police provocation by playing the “Jewish card”: they accuse some Ukrainians of destroying Jews, and others of turning into heroes those whom they were allegedly destroying. This is a well-known device: turn the Jews away from the Ukrainian renaissance, turn the Jews and the entire civilized world away from those who seek to restore a genuine Ukrainian Ukraine—Ukrainian in spirit, language, and remembrance of its geniuses and heroes—a Ukrainian Ukraine for all those who live in that country today, regardless of ethnic origins.

      In 1942-43 Natalia Shukhevych, the wife of UPA Commander in Chief Roman Shukhevych, hid a young Jewish girl named Ira Reichenberg in her home. General Shukhevych prepared a fake passport for the girl in the name of Iryna Ryzhko. When the Gestapo arrested Mrs. Shukhevych, the little girl was brought to an orphanage based at a convent located in the village of Kulykiv in the Lviv region. There the little girl survived the German occupation and the war. In 2007 Iryna Ryzhko died in Kyiv, where her son Volodymyr lives.

      I recounted all this during my briefing at Ukraine’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs on 3 November 2008.

      President Victor Yushchenko has instituted state recognition of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. The mass media in Russia and beyond its borders, which are manipulated by Russia’s special services, have unfolded a frantic smear campaign against the UPA, which is accused of complicity in the destruction of the Jews. On 14 October 2008, the Feast of the Protection of the Blessed Virgin Mary—the day set aside to pay homage to UPA soldiers—I gave an interview to the BBC. Here is a fragment:

      The claim that “the UPA engaged in anti-Jewish actions” is a provocation engineered by Moscow. It is a provocation. It is a lie that the UPA destroyed Jews. Tell me: how could the UPA have destroyed Jews when Jews were serving members of the UPA? I knew a Jew who served in the UPA. I also knew Dr. Abraham Shtertser, who settled in Israel after the war. There was Samuel Noiman whose [UPA] codename was Maksymovych. There was Shai Varma (codename Skrypal/Violinist). There was Roman Vynnytsky whose codename was Sam.

      There was another distinguished figure in the UPA, a woman by the name of Stella Krenzbach, who later wrote her memoirs. She was born in Bolekhiv, in the Lviv region. She was the daughter of a rabbi, she was a Zionist, and in Bolekhiv she was friends with Olia, the daughter of a [Ukrainian] Greek-Catholic priest. In 1939 Stella Krenzbach graduated from Lviv University’s Faculty of Philosophy. From 1943 she served in the UPA as a nurse and intelligence agent. In the spring of 1945 she was captured by the NKVD while meeting a courier in Rozhniativ. She was imprisoned, tortured, and sentenced to death. Later, this Jewish woman was sprung from prison by UPA soldiers. In the summer of 1945 she crossed into the Carpathian Mountains together with a group of Ukrainian insurgents, and on 1 October 1946 she reached the British Zone of Occupation in Austria. Eventually, she reached Israel. In her memoirs Stella Krenzbach writes:

      “I attribute the fact that I am alive today and devoting all the strength of my thirty-eight years to a free Israel only to God and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. I became a member of the heroic UPA on 7 November 1943. In our group I counted twelve Jews, eight of whom were doctors.”

      I trust that the Ukrainian state will name all of these individuals. The Ukrainian state will proclaim as heroes these people who, although they were not ethnic Ukrainians, fought for Ukraine’s independence. To me personally, the UPA is sacred. In my opinion, the UPA is sacred to all individuals who, regardless of their ethnic backgrounds, have a bit of Ukraine in their souls.

      Russia’s special services are seeking to destabilize the situation in Ukraine, undermine its sovereignty and independence, create a negative image of this country, block its integration into European and Euro-Atlantic structures, and turn Ukraine into a dependent and manipulated satellite. In their special operations against Ukraine they attribute exceptional importance to the “Jewish card.”

      They want to set the Ukrainians and Jews against each other by means of the well known method of “Divide and conquer.” They will not succeed in either dividing us or ruling over us.

      Moses Fishbein is a distinguished Ukrainian poet and translator, winner of the Vasyl Stus Prize, and a member of the Ukrainian Center of the International PEN Club and the National Union of Writers of Ukraine. This is a paper delivered at the 26th Conference on Ukrainian Subjects at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, on June24-27, 2009.

      http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/44324

  14. You just answered your own question, kremlinoid Tal.

    The fact that Bandera still makes you poop in your pants says it all.

    The street names are indeed at the local level. And people everywhere are still suffering from the effects of sovok brainwashing, which told them that Bandera, who stood up for the freedom of Ukraine, is a “criminal,” a Nazi one at that.

    Holocaust perpetrator is a new one on me. Bandera was too busy evading all the bastard sovoks that were trying to kill him to be able to perpetrate a Holocaust on anyone.

    Unfortunately, the sovok mindset is still deeply instilled in an ever-growing minority of morons who bought into the stuff.

    The commie leaders very easily shed all the sovok propaganda – and became oligarchs, with yachts, jets, mansions, and garish, outrageous conspicuous consumption.

    A large part of their monetary largesse depended on true-believer sovok morons, who still swallow sovok propaganda, while oligarchs gamble in Monaco based on offshore Cyprus money accounts in the millions and billions of dollars.

    Street signs are not handled by the president of Ukraine. But President Yushchenko’s view is the correct view, devoid of the miasma of sovok brainwashing.

    Paris has a metro station unfortunately named. It honors a victory over Nazis.

    But France is hardly the hater nation, and hardly the collection of kremlinoid thugs that is roosha.

  15. Today is the 50th aniversary of the death of Stepan Bandera; the kremlin authorised his assassination by the KGB in Munich, Germany, on October 15, 1959.

    >> 1941 Ukrainians are targeted and killed by the Nazis also.

    Bandera’s followers argued that the Nazis had crushed Ukrainian independence and that many members of the OUN-B had been arrested, deported to concentration camps or shot. Members of Bandera’s underground cited how Stepan Bandera was currently confined at the Sachsenhausen concentration camp, his two brothers had been imprisoned (and later executed) in the Auschwitz concentration camp and other family members had been arrested and shot in the outskirts of Lviv.
    Before fleeing the German advance the Soviet occupational regime murdered thousands of Ukrainian civilians, mainly members of the city’s [Lviv’s] intelligentsia.
    (Encyclopedia of Ukraine, Volume 3, p. 222)

    Hardly 20% of Ukrainian intelligentsia has remained.

    >> 1943 The kremlin allows the moskali Orthodox Church to reopen to assist them in the war, and the KGB are given pulpits to stand on, and work as priests, and shrive the Ukrainian people.

    >> 1945 Yalta agreement. Key points of the meeting are as follows: Citizens of the Soviet Union and of Yugoslavia were to be handed over to their respective countries, regardless of their consent.

    There were two and a half to three million (2,500,000 – 3,000,000) Ukrainian Untermenschen [Ukrainians were considered sub-human by the Nazis] OST-Arbeiters [slave labor] that were taken from Ukraine, by the Nazis, to work in Germany. Also, many Ukrainians were in the German concentration camps, and there were Ukrainian POW’s too. When the allies gave the Ukrainians to the KGB handlers from the kremlin, many were shot or hung. Most of the rest were loaded into cattle cars and transported east. Unfortunately, the trains did not stop before the borders of Eastern Ukraine; instead, the trains went directly to the gulags, because of the orders from the kremlin {PROUNOUNCED GENOCIDE} . During the cold winter months, about 50 % of the Ukrainians died during transport to the gulags.

    Ukraine lost one in four of its population during the Second World War, the largest losses of any country and about 20% of the total deaths.

    ORIGINAL RECORDING OF SPEACH BY STEPAN BANDERA:

  16. I always find it highly symbolic that in hte 1930s, the Ukrainian nationalists, instead of choosing hte national colors of gold and blue, imitated the Nazis and chose the Nazi colours – red, black and white – for their flags and emblems.

    What is even more appaling is htat they continue to use the Nazi colours to this day.

    • This is a new spin on Ukrainians = Nazi? The black and red embroidery threads have been used on the Ukrainian embroidered shirts, towels, etc, for centuries. Ukrainians have been wearing Ukrainian embroidered shirts for centuries, until the secular uncivilized barbarians in the kremlin started destroying them and not allowing Ukrainian people to wear Ukrainian shirts. Also, these colors were appropriately symbolic because red can = the blood of the Ukrainians that was spilt by the kremlin, and black may = the mourning of the friends and family of the Ukrainians that were killed by the kremlin!

      • > This is a new spin on Ukrainians = Nazi?

        Of course not. Average Ukrainians are very nice people. I am talking only about the nationalist extremists.

        • The biggest threat to Russian imperialism, whether tsarist or soviet, is – Ukrainian nationalism.

          That’s why the tsars and the soviets and the current wannabe-tsar, all centered in Mоscow, fought and are still fighting tooth-and-nail to stamp out any vestige of Ukrainian feeling, language, culture, etc.

          All throughout the world, in civilized countries, people stand up for their own country and their own people.

          When Ukrainians stand up for their own country and their own people, Russians and their satraps brand that as “nationalism”, call it a crime, and churn out atrocity propaganda; masking in the process their own boundless atrocities that easily win the world championship for insane cruelty and number of victims.

          • Together the democratic republics of Ukraine and Georgia are the current neo-fascist Russian states worst nightmare, together they show clearly that Orthodox people can embrace democracy, fight corruption, and cooperate with the western democracies.

            Together Georgia and Ukraine demolish the fascist arguments of the Kremlin cabal that wish to resurrect the Soviet system. Contrary to what Russian “politicians” and “leaders” would like us to believe, and as shown by Georgians and Ukrainians, Orthodox Christians can and do want democracy, can and do make the democratic system work, can and do fight and stamp out corruption, can and do hold their leaders responsible for their actions, can and do have independant media, TV, Radio, and print.

            All of this terrifies Kremilin supporters and apologists such as Mr Tal.

  17. Elmer, I am not an expert on Bandera personally, but many Ukrainian nationalists – especially Roman Shukevych’s Nachtigall Batallion – do scare me and other Jews because these people were Nazi criminals and mass murderers of Jews and Poles. Here is a detaile daccount of how they murdered 3 to 4 thousand innocent Jews in Lviv:

    http://www.zeit.de/2001/26/200126_a-lemberg.xml?page=1

    Die Zeit

    Blutige Ouvertüre. Lemberg, 30. Juni 1941: Mit dem Einmarsch der Wehrmachttruppen beginnt der Judenmord

    Während Familienmitglieder nach ihren Angehörigen suchen, zwingen die ukrainischen Soldaten des Bataillons “Nachtigall” unter dem Befehl deutscher Offiziere die herbeigeschafften Juden, auf Knien zu den Leichen zu kriechen und sie zu waschen. Jüdische Frauen und Mädchen werden mit Gejohle entkleidet und dann fotografiert; den alten Männern reißt man die Barthaare aus.

    Dafür spricht schon die Tatsache, dass dem Kommando mit dem ukrainischen Bataillon “Nachtigall” ein fanatisch antisemitisches und aus Ortskundigen bestehendes Hilfskontingent zur Verfügung stand. Es sollen denn auch, Augenzeugen zufolge, Angehörige dieser Truppe gewesen sein, die, gleich nach dem Einmarsch und noch im Morgengrauen des 30. Juni, die Leichen der NKDW-Opfer in den Gefängnissen verstümmelt haben.

    Eine erweiterte Fassung dieses Beitrag erschien soeben in der “Zeitschrift für Geschichtswissenschaft” Nr. 5 (Metropol Verlag, Berlin; 24,- DM; ISSN 0044-2828)

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massaker_an_den_Lemberger_Professoren

    Gleichzeitig wurde mit Hilfe ukrainischer Studenten eine Liste der etwa 45 Lemberger Professoren angefertigt, samt ihren Familienangehörigen und allen Personen, die sich in ihren Wohnungen aufhielten. In der Nacht vom 3. zum 4. Juli wurden diese Professorenfamilien von der Gestapo und von Soldaten des Nachtigallbataillons verhaftet und noch in der gleichen Nacht erschossen. Man vermutete, dass bei dem Verbrechen auch Raubmotive eine Rolle spielten, weil die Wohnungen selbst geplündert und der Kunst- und Wertgegenstände beraubt wurden.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20080212081328/http://motlc.learningcenter.wiesenthal.org/text/x16/xm1688.html

    Wiesenthal Holocaust Center

    The Ukrainian Legion.

    … Germans established, at the beginning of 1941, the 700 – man Ukrainian Legion. In May 1941 the legion was divided into two battalions named Nachtigall and Roland. […] The Ukrainian commander of this unit [Nachtigall] was Roman Shukhevych.

    When the Germans invaded the USSR on June 22, 1941, Nachtigall was sent to serve at the front in the area of Przemysl. By June 30, Nachtigall had entered Lvov, together with some German units. The soldiers of the battalion participated, with the Germans and the Ukrainian mob in the city, in the riots and the killing of Jews that took place between June 30 and July 3. During those days, Jews were kidnapped in the streets of the city, brought to concentration centers in several prisons, and brutally killed. Four thousand of them were murdered during the four days of rioting.

    … Nachtigall passed through Zolochev and Ternopol and reached the area of Vinnitsa. On the way, members of the battalion took part in pogroms against Jews. …. In October 1941, many of its members were attached to German military units engaged in suppressing partisans in Belorussia. On December 1 of that year, the battalion was finally disbanded. Some of its members joined Ukrainian auxiliary police units in the service of the Germans.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=A4FlatJCro4C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPP1,M1

    Poland’s Holocaust By Tadeusz Piotrowski
    Published by McFarland, 1998
    ISBN 0786403713, 9780786403714

    [Summary: In his book, Polish historian Tadeusz Piotrowski lists eyewitness accounts of the Lviv massacres, including Czeslaw Lucszak’s claim that Nachtigall murdered Polish populace. A. Rzepicki says that Nachtigall was used for the roundup of the Jews. According to a study by Wlodzimierz Bonusiak, the Jewish and Polish pogroms were carried out by 4 different formations: Ukrainian police, Nachtigall, Feldgestapo, and Einsatzkommando. On May 2 1966, the Hamburg Procurator von Belov wrote: “Findings inside and outside the country produced the following conclusions. […] The Ukrainian Liberation Army took part in these outrages which also involved arbitrary killings”. Professor A. Norden and Werner Brockdorff concur.]

  18. But I found Bandera mentioned too:

    http://www.zeit.de/2001/26/200126_a-lemberg.xml?page=1

    Die Zeit

    Blutige Ouvertüre. Lemberg, 30. Juni 1941: Mit dem Einmarsch der Wehrmachttruppen beginnt der Judenmord

    … Almost identical posters of a “Ukrainian National Committee,” called for the death of Jews and Communists and cheered Adolf Hitler and Stepan Bandera….

    “Bandera was the leader of one of the two rival wings of the Ukrainian Nationalists OUN organization, and its urgent action to sharply anti-Semitic group of OUN (B) enjoyed the special patronage of the German defense. The Germans had the Ukrainian battalion, which had marched under the code name “Nightingale” in German uniforms and under the command of army officers in Lviv, situated in the winter of 1940/41. To Bandera, it was important that reliable and local party members formed the main contingent. He had prepared his people in the town on the day of the siege: Witnesses report that conjured up in the deserted streets “suddenly, out of the earth” people with badges and the blue and yellow ribbons appeared “to provide for so-called” order ” . They occupied, with the approval of the Germans, the police station and took over their functions.”

  19. Dear Michael Tal,

    Your statements from the soviet encyclopedia, or other kremlin disinformation sources, are evil propaganda.

    Stepan Bandera’s brother Bohdan died in the 1942 fighting the Nazis after they had entered Lviv. On July 5, 1941 Stepan Bandera was arrested in Krakow and taken to Berlin where he was initially kept in a jail before being transferred to Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp where he remained interned until 1944. His brother Oleksandr, who had a PhD in Political Economy which he received in Rome and brother Vasyl (graduate of Philosophy, Lviv University) were arrested, interred and killed in the Auschwitz Concentration Camp in 1942. Andriy Bandera, Stepan’s father was killed by the Soviets during an interrogation. His sisters Oksana and Marta-Maria were arrested by the Soviets in 1941 and sent to Siberia without the right to return to Ukraine. Marta-Maria died in Siberia in 1982, and her sister Oksana returned to Ukraine in 1989 where she died in 2004. Another sister, Volodymyra – was sentenced to a term in Soviet labour correction camps from 1946-1956.

    Sincerely,

    LES

  20. LES wrote:
    > On July 5, 1941 Stepan Bandera was arrested in Krakow and taken to Berlin where he remained interned until 1944.

    So what? The relations between Bandera/Shukhevych and the Nazis turned from alliance to rivalry on July 5 1941, when Bandera declared that he wanted an independent Ukraine.

    However, this doesn’t negate the murder of 3 to 4 thousand innocent Jews in Lviv from June 30 to about July 3rd, 1941.

  21. Tal, you’re not a Jew, you are a liar.

    And you are using a familiary sovok kremlinoid tactic – trying to play the so-called “anti-Jew” card in order to try to undermine Ukrainian – or any other country’s – independence.

    You are simply repeating old disinformation, which has been repeated over and over and over by little turd kremlinoids like you.

    You are re-fighting WWII, over and over and over again, for the “glory” of – what? Putler. Other kremlinoids. The thugs who infest the kremlin.

    The KGB murdered civilians in Lviv, and then fabricated a lie about “Nazis” doing the killing.

    And you are simply perpetuating LIES.

    Proven lies.

    Which little kremlinoids repeat over and over again, despite the fact that everyone knows they are lies, and that they’ve been proven to be lies.

    Commies/sovoks/stalinists called for “death” to “enemies of the state.”

    That meant death to anyone who stood for freedom, independence and truth.

    You’re just a 21st century thug, Tal.

    And you’re not a Jew.

    You’re just a creep.

  22. Elmer,

    Are you accusing the Holocaust scholars and the US Holocaust Museum of being “little turd kremlinoids”?! Wow, you are a real paronoid case.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lviv_pogroms_controversy_(1941).

    Accounts by Holocaust scholars

    Holocaust scholars attribute the killing to the Ukrainian nationalists.[20][21][22][23] The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust states: “In June-July 1941 it is estimated that over 4,000 Jews were murdered in pogroms in Lvov and other cities in Western Ukraine. The Nachtigall Battalion, under the command of Shukhevych, took part in these pogroms.”[24] The Simon Wiesenthal Center also states that the Nachtigall Battalion participated along with the Germans in pogroms where over 4,000 Jews were murdered in Lviv in July, 1941”.[24].
    On December 6, 2007, the Chairman of the Yad Vashem Memorial in Jerusalem Yosef Lapid stated in an interview with the radio network Deutsche Welle that the Yad Vashem Memorial has a dossier showing that the Group Nachtigall took part in the pogroms in Lviv in the Summer of 1941. He added that part of these documents has already been used in the writing of the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust in 1990.[26]

    • dear michael tal,

      Why do you quote Yosef Lapid, who is either a clueless delusional useful idiot, or an evil paid kremlin propagandist, rather than the Yad Vashem’s director Avner Shalev?

      This latest chapter in the vilification campaign against Shukhevych and the Nachtigall Battalion was started by Yosef Lapid, claiming to be the Chairman of the Yad Vashem Council, who, during President Yushchenko’s state visit to Israel and his side-trip to Yad Vashem in November 2007, protested against the granting of the title “Hero of Ukraine” to Shukhevych. Lapid maintained that Shukhevych and the Nachtigall Battalion had participated in the murder of 4,000 Jews in Lviv in 1941. On 6 December 2007 he restated his position during a program aired by the international broadcaster Deutsche Welle: “We have a whole dossier which shows that Shukhevych was one of those implicated in mass murder. Ukraine has not yet asked us to hand over these documents.”

      The Ukrainian government, which had been cooperating with Yad Vashem, having already delivered 126,000 pages of various documents to Israel, decided to send an official delegation to Yad Vashem to uncover the truth about what really happened in Lviv. On 27 February 2008 Ihor Yukhnovsky, chairman of Ukraine’s Institute of National Memory, and Volodymyr Viatrovych left for Israel. The next day they met with Yad Vashem’s director Avner Shalev, who informed the Ukrainian delegation that there is no separate dossier on Shukhevych and that Yosef Lapid, who had raised the issue, is not a member of Yad Vashem. The following question arises: whom can we trust when we, historians, try in an honest fashion to recreate the complexities of the past?

  23. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?ModuleId=10005171

    The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

    Encouraged by German forces to begin violent actions against the Jewish population in Lvov, Ukrainian nationalists massacred about 4,000 Jews in early July 1941.

    http://www.ushmm.org/museum/mission/

    The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

    Chartered by a unanimous Act of Congress in 1980 and located adjacent to the National Mall in Washington, DC, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is America’s national institution

  24. No, Tal, I’m calling you a liar.

    Bandera is coming to get you tonight.

    An excerpt from the article you linked to:

    In 1959 sensational allegations were made by the East German Professor Albert Orden that the killing in Lviv was done by Ukrainians and specifically by the Nachtigall Battalion. The accusations were aimed primarily at discrediting professor Theodor Oberländer, who in 1941 was the German officer attache to the Battalion and who in 1959 was a minister in the West German government.

    A committee was formed in East Berlin to look into the allegations about the participation of the Nachtigall Battalion and Oberlander in the atrocities in Lviv. Of the 19 witnesses who testified only 3 had ever been to Lviv where the atrocities were to have taken place, and all three had been there only in transit. Nevertheless the East German court found Oberlander guilty and sentenced him in absentia to life imprisonment[3].

    Another court investigation was launched in West Germany. No new documents were forthcoming except falsified written “eye-witness” statements by former members of the Nachtigall Battalion from the Soviet Union. These accounts were translated and forwarded April 6, 1960 to Ludwigsburg. The accusations stated that the Nachtigall Battalion killed Jews and Poles in Lviv, Zolochev, Satanov, Yuzvyn, Mykhalpol, and on the night of 3-4 July they shot hundreds of Polish intellectuals[3].

    The West German courts examined the documents in detail. The examiners came to the conclusion that “most of the members of the Nachtigall Battalion, although they knew about the terrible killings done by the NKVD, (the NKVD had murdered over 5000 prisoners in jails before the German occupation) and among the killed were members of the families of a number of the soldiers (Shukhevych’s younger brother was one of those killed), held to exemplary discipline”[3].

    232 witnesses testified that the allegations against the Nachtigall Battalion were false and the West German Court absolved them of blame and punishment[3].

    The allegations against Oberlander and the Nachtigall Battalion were inspired by the KGB in an attempt to compromise the Adenauer government in West Germany. Teodor Oberlander had in 1953 become Minister of Victims of War, deported and repatriated Germans in the Adenauer government.

    At the same time Soviet sources, in order to cover up their participation in the murder of thousands of Ukrainian and Polish civilians in Lviv, also let out a rumor that Oberlander had ordered the murder of Stepan Bandera[3] which was disproved when Bandera’s Soviet assassin, Bohdan Stashynsky, defected to the West and confessed

  25. This is especially for you, Tal.

    An interview with an ethnic Russian who fought for Ukraine with the Ukrainian Insurgent Army.

    The Bolsheviks killed his father. He escaped to Ukraine, looking for something better – but there was a famine in 1933 – he ate mice and rodents.

    The commies broke his ribs, his fingers, they tortured him.

    At one point, he hid – and ate – with dogs.

    He fought against the NKVD, Tal.

    Shukhevych is coming to get you.

    http://tap-the-talent.blogspot.com/2009/10/ethnic-russian-upa-vet-tells-his-story.html

  26. You are a LIAR, Tal.

    You left out the part from the article you linked to about President Yushchenko’s visit to Israel, and the opening up of the Ukrainian archives.

    YOU ARE A LIAR!!

    Shukhevych is coming to get you, Tal.

    Excerpt from the article you linked to:

    Visit to Yad Vashem
    On April 5, 2008, the Ukrainian newspaper “Den'” («День») published an article by the adviser to the head of the Ukrainian Security Services V. Viatrovych, titled “The end of the Legend about Nachtigall”. V. Viatrovych wrote that on February 28, 2008 a government delegation from Ukraine lead by the head of the Ukrainian Institute of National Memory I. Yukhnovsky and by V. Viatrovych himself visited Yad Vashem to closer acquaint themselves with the Shukhevych archive. According to V. Viatrovych, they were told by Chaim Gertner that no such a separate archive existed and that the documents were scattered throughout the complex.

    According to V. Viatrovych, two documents were finally made available. One of 7 pages and another 18. The first was a copy of the interrogation minutes of Luka Pavlyshyn (who according to V. Viatrovych, actually never served in the Nachtigall Battalion) by the KGB. According to V. Viatrovych, “this document is well known” and was the basis for what he referred to as “a propaganda brochure published in 1960 to incriminate Oberlander”.

    The second was the German translation of a deposition by Hryhory Melnyk who according to V. Viatrovych, “had been trained by the KGB on November 13 1959 and was given instructions to lie in court during the proceedings against Oberlander”.

  27. Ukraine opened up its archives, to reveal information, good or bad.

    And, as it turns out, those archives revealed brutal killings by the NKVD of Ukrainians.

    WHY DOES RASHA NOT OPEN UP ITS ARCHIVES?

    You see the answer in kremlinoids like Tal, who troll on web sites, and pretend to be Jews, spinning out their kremlinoid disinformation – right down to how a Ukrainian organization must be nazis because they use red and black colors.

    So the Inter Milan soccer team, which has red and black uniforms, must be nazis as well – according to kremlinoids.

    And there was a Ukrainian who played for that team – Andriy Shevchenko, at one time European Footballer of the Year.

    WHY DOES ROOSHA NOT OPEN UP ITS ARCHIVES?

    • Well said Elmer

      Mr Tal/Phobophobe/Ostap Bender (he is a slimy little individual isn’t he!) is a typical lying Kremlin thug.

      He is incapable of honesty or integrity and has been repeatedly caught out lying.

      Thanks for you and Les smashing his anti Ukrainian drivel.

  28. Taras Hunczak

    Shukhevych and the Nachtigall Battalion:

    Moscow Fabrications about the Ukrainian Resistance Movement

    In this article I will not be responding to the numerous fabricated stories that are still being published in newspapers and books in Russia and elsewhere, which portray the freedom fighters of the Ukrainian resistance movement—the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) or the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA)—as “fascists.” Even in Ukraine today there are still significant numbers of people who maliciously defame those who sacrificed their lives for their country’s freedom and independence. Clearly, certain individuals find it easier to make their “scholarly” careers by issuing groundless accusations. Where some of these accusers are concerned, this type of allegation is an unmistakable holdover from the Soviet propaganda era.

    In the Russian Federation, in particular, it is a matter of state policy to denigrate all past and present efforts of Ukrainians to be free in their own independent state. The decree issued on 14 October 2006 by President Viktor Yushchenko of Ukraine, whose goal was to bring about reconciliation between the veterans of the Red Army and the members of the Ukrainian resistance movement, was immediately criticized in an article published in a Moscow newspaper. Thus, it is hardly a surprise—indeed, it was to be expected—that several individuals recently publicly accused the Commander in Chief of the UPA General Roman Shukhevych and the Nachtigall Battalion for crimes they did not commit.

    Should one waste time arguing with people who make baseless accusations against Ukraine’s resistance movement? I think not. It is more effective to convey to readers who desire to learn the truth about the dramatic and often tragic events of World War II in Ukraine by showing them evidence based on solid documentation.

    The most enduring object of slander against the Ukrainian national liberation movement has been Stepan Bandera, who for many people remains a flag-bearer and symbol of the struggle for Ukraine’s national dignity and political independence. Bandera and his followers have been characterized variously as “fascists,” “Hitlerites,” “collaborators,” “Nazis,” etc. However, like Hetman Ivan Mazepa or Symon Petliura, Bandera has become part of Ukrainian political history—a symbol that is applied to anyone who was ever committed to the ideal of national independence. The Russians regarded even Ukraine’s Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko as a “Banderite” (banderivka), wrote journalist Yurii Korohodsky.

    A storm of criticism against the Ukrainian resistance movement erupted in the Russian media in 2007, when President Yushchenko posthumously conferred the title of “Hero of Ukraine” on General Roman Shukhevych (nom de guerre: Taras Chuprynka), the Commander in Chief of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, who died in a shoot-out with special units of the MVD in March 1950. The award was presented to his son Yurii Shukhevych on 14 October 2007. On that occasion President Yushchenko called upon the parliament and government to grant official recognition to the members of the UPA, who had fought for the independence of Ukraine.

    Russia’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs responded negatively to President Yushchenko’s suggestion, viewing it as the latest in a string of anti-Russian manifestations, which, according to Russia, are cropping up in Ukraine. In its declaration of 14 December 2007 Russia expressed particular concern over the “rehabilitation of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army” because, as the Russians maintained, “it [is] well known that the bandit formations of the UPA participated in the Nazis’ punitive actions.” On 23 June 2008 the Russian government again criticized President Yushchenko for his decision to grant an award to Shukhevych whom they identified as a “captain of the SS.” It would have been constructive if the Russians had provided evidence to back their accusations. The commentary also stated that it is absolutely unacceptable to treat “Nazi criminals and the fighters of the OUN-UPA, and the veterans of the Great Patriotic War” as equals. What is particularly interesting to a historian is the Russian objection to “efforts to re-examine the consequences of World War II.”

    The position of Russia’s foreign ministry was restated by Vitaly Churkin, the Ambassador of the RF to the UN at a press conference held on 28 October 2008, during which he went so far as to call Roman Shukhevych “a Nazi.” Furthermore, he said that “throughout the Second World War they,” i.e., the members of the Ukrainian resistance movement, “were part of the Nazi movement…”

  29. LES wrote:
    > Why do you quote Yosef Lapid, rather than the Yad Vashem’s director Avner Shalev?

    Yosef Lapid was the Yad Vashem’s director until he got ill and died. But if you trust only the new Yad Vashem director Avner Shalev, who replaced Lapid. I will galdy quote him just for you concerning your criminal liar Viatrovych:

    http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/press_room/press_releases/19.03.08.html.

    Yad Vashem Press Release:

    Yad Vashem Response to Misinformation Regarding Meeting Held Between Ukrainian Vice Prime Minister’s Delegation and Yad Vashem in Jerusalem Last Month

    (March 19, 2008 – Jerusalem) Today, Chairman of Yad Vashem Avner Shalev sent a letter to Vice Prime Minister of the Ukraine, Ivan Vasyunik, following misinformation from their meeting earlier this month that has been reported in Ukraine. Following is the full text of the letter.

    Your Excellency, On February 28th of this year, Yad Vashem was pleased to host the delegation that visited us under your leadership. As you certainly recall, the visit included candid discussions regarding subjects of common interest.

    We came to these discussions in good faith and with a sense of mutual respect.We were therefore surprised and DISAPPOINTED to learn of a most unfavorable and OBJECTIONABLE development that has been reported to us from Kiev. I refer, sadly, to a press conference in which a member of your delegation took part, and during which GLARING AND OFFENSIVE MISREPRESENTATIONS regarding our institution and its supposed positions were BELLIGERENTLY expressed.

    I OBJECT STRENIOUSLY both to the MISLEADING statements ascribed to Yad Vashem, as well as to the circumstances in which a guest whom we had welcomed cordially and genuinely now seeks, without any prior notice, to publicly misrepresent us.

    Academic research, conducted and published around the world, points to the support of, and INTENSIVE and WIDESPREAD COLABORATION with the German NAZI occupation of Poland and Ukraine, BY NACHTIGAL and its commander at the time, ROMAN SHUKHEVYCH.

    Avner Shalev

    March 19, 2008 – Jerusalem

    ——————————-

    Ar we clear now?

  30. I wanted to thank you for this wonderful read!
    ! I absolutely loved every bit of it. I have you book-marked to check out new things you post…

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