What would Jesuski do?
We can only (excuse the pun) pray that reader “psalomschik’s” head does not explode when he sees this. The Daily Mail reports (click through for more photos of His Holiness):
The beard and long hair are both present and correct. And with his flowing linen robes and beatific smile he certainly does a fine impression of a holy man. But to his believers in this remote corner of Siberia, Sergei Torop, a former traffic policeman, is the literal reincarnation of none other than Jesus Christ
Torop, 48, is the spiritual leader of at least 5,000 devoted followers, among them intellectuals, artists and professionals who flock to worship him in the small isolated village of Petropavlovka – more than 2000 miles from Moscow.
Torop was ‘reborn’ as ‘Vissarion’ in 1991 just as Russia was facing a crisis of confidence following the collapse of the iron curtain. He is just the latest example of Russia’s predilection for ‘personality cults’ – a national obsession that leads back all the way to the days of Rasputin.
Both Lenin and Stalin tapped into the Russian people’s eagerness to embrace powerful figures and actively fostered the almost religious fervour with which they were worshipped. After time spent in the Army, Torop had been working as a traffic policeman on the night shift in the small Siberia town of Minusinsk until he was made unemployed. Suddenly something ‘awoke’ inside him, he says, and he instantly knew that he was the second coming of Christ – 2,000 years after he was first crucified.
He says he realised that God had sent him to Earth to teach mankind about the evils of war and the havoc we were wreaking on the environment. With Christmas abolished his followers mark the day of his first sermon on August 18 as their special feast day. Time in the community is measured by Vissarion’s life and so as he is 48 years old his Church is now living in year 49.
His followers, who have given up their lives to follow him, are strict vegans and are banned from smoking and drinking or handling money. Around 300 of them live in wooden huts in the village that has grown up around his church and which does not appear on any maps.
Many thousands more have made their homes in the small villages that surround Petropavlovka and survive the vicious Siberian winters so that they can be close to their Messiah. On a mountain close by their village a large bell tolls three times a day so the followers know when they should break off from their back-breaking work to kneel and pray.
Vissarion himself whiles away his days painting in his chalet where he lives with his wife and six children – one of whom he adopted from a single mother in the commune. But critics in Russia have accused him of fleecing his loyal community of followers for personal gain.
In recent years he has travelled to France, Italy and Holland to ‘convert’ new followers although he claims that his visits were sponsored by his hosts and that his Church makes no money.
La Russophobe 
NO! , Psalomschick’s head is not exploding at this information. But, how to define it?… ah! that is the problem. True, in all of Russian history, there were various wandering holy men/beggars, ‘Holy Fools’, in Russian: ‘Fools For Christ’s Sake’ who appeared, usually, in monk’s garb, often wearing numerous crosses on them, and who sometimes healed people (as Rasputin did) and performed other miracles, who were not connected to the official Orthodox Church…..and usually dissapproved of by the church. They always had some numbers of devotees among the common folk, and in fact, they were also…feared…lest if one offend them, they put a curse on you.
It is recorded that when Czar Ivan the Terrible was on the throne, when he was in church (almost every day!…as the bloody-Czar, was always guilt-laden), on one Good Friday, there appeared in the church where the Czar was, a local Holy Fool Andrew. Being Good Friday, as in all of the 40 days of Lent, none ate meat, in fact on that most sacred day, most ate no food at all.
Into the church marched ragged Fool Andrew, visibly munching on a large kolbasa (sausage), and saying: “Delicious! meat! Umm! tasty!….and blood!…everywhere! Blood! Blood! blood!” he loudly proclaimed to a shocked congregation, as…he stared at the Czar. All in the church were afraid for their lives, and none would have dared to say such things to the Czar, but only Fool Andrew. What did Czar Ivan do? It is recorded that he cringed and sank down on his throne, in visible fear, of this Holy Fool, whom he dared not harm, dared not! In fact, no harm ever came to Andrew, by the Czar’s orders. But, it was only this beggar, that told the awful truth to the bloodly Czar, about all his murdering. The clergy kept silent, as best as is known. Such types, some sincere, others perhaps not truly prophets or holy at all, wandered Russia…even to this day. This pathetic young man in Siberia, is merely trying to copy such traditional types. However! in proclaiming himself, as ‘Christ’, that!…is somewhat unusual.
From an Orthodox point of view, the very fact that so many deluded people there, actually believe him, is a clear sign that stable/real religion is not influencing them, but their phantasies and their EXTREME hunger for something to believe in, to hold on to, have persuaded them to follow this fakir, abandoning all common sense. I believe, that this is now a national disease, a product of all those long years of athiestic society, when religion was mocked and considered unnecessary, etc.
This sort of unbalanced religious sect, is not uncommon in today’s Russia. There are many!
Afterall, many common Russians have plenty of reasons to not trust the Kremlin controled state religion, so…they run to every weird sect that seems to offer them….hope and leadership, and spiritual consolation. They also run to and automatically trust, every foreign (non-Russian) missionary!
In many of their minds, I believe, they have to decide who to trust: ‘”Kyrill II”….or this self-proclaimed ‘Christ’ in Siberia!
Since lots of Russians, do not trust the official church….they run for religious consolation…hither and yon, even to such preposterous fakes as this Siberian ‘Christ’.
Of course, do we not have in America, some versions of this man?
In Siberia, however, he uses Orthodox trappings, icons, bells, crosses, etc. as part of his theater of the absurd religious set.
Just some of my random thoughts.
Reader Daniel
If Russians or a significant many are suspicious and sceptical of the Russian Orthodox Church. How are the Protestant Evangelical Churches doing in Russia, aren’t American missionaries proselytising in Russia, as they are else where in the world?
With the new Patriarch, is the ROC still implacably hostile to the Roman Catholic Church?
Surely a Papal visit to Russia is something Patriarch Krill and Pope Benedict XVI can arrange?
Why does the ROC seek to keep a monopoly on Christianity in Russia?
Perhaps if Russia was Catholic and used the Latin alphabet, the tragedies that have befallen Russia won’t of happened?
Slavic Catholic nations such as Poland, Czech Republic, Slovak Republic, Croatia, and Slovenia are very comfortably part of the West. European/Western identity whether people like it or not is intimately connected to/founded by the Roman Catholic Church!
Perhaps someone should do a doctoral thesis/research on the impact Orthodoxy has on Russia’s alienation from the West?
A Catholic Russia dare I say would be a better Russia?
To Warren: “A Catholic Russia dare I say would be a better Russia?”, etc. and your other interesting statements here:
No! to your statement. I cannot see any advantage, IF Russia had been under the Popes in past centuries, or now. But for long centuries Catholic and Protestant foreignors (as long as they were not part of invading armies!) were both allowed and even tolerated/their clergy even subsidized by the Czars!, by most Czars….as long as they did not try to convert Orthodox-Russians!
Under the commies, of course matters changed radically, but they saw their prime enemy as the national religion, The Orthodox Church, as their first target to exterminate….and only secondarily, the Catholic church., and other Christians……and the religious-Jews too.
First of all, I remind you, that the ‘ROC’, so-called, is a political arm of the Kremlin, not a free serious church, especially not in official relations with any foreign entities, such as the Vatican, etc.
This new ‘Patriarch’ is very friendly to Rome and to world-wide ecumenical bodies, because…..such is the new party-line and is good for the Kremlin’s power, that’s all. The business as to whether or not the Pope, is …allowed…to visit Russia, is thus a purely power -political issue, both from the Kremlin’s side, and also, dare I say, to the Pope’s power interests also.
As to Orthodoxy versus Catholicism, etc, well most Orthodox do NOT desire for our church to be swallowed up by Rome, which has been the Vatican’s aim, for many centuries. Our church is an unbroken continuation of the Early Church, wheras, the Latins left the Universal Church, in 1054 AD. So, no, we do want union with the Pope, as we believe that Christ Himself is ONLY The Head of the Church, and every authentic Orthodox bishop is His ‘vicar’, as was the firm universal Christian belief for 800-900 years of the earlier Church era, (east and west) before the invention of Papal Infalibility in the 1800’s. Most Russian Orthodox laity, do not desire ‘ecumenical’ dialogue with Rome. But! the leadership of the KGB-Moscow Patriarch, DO!…but purely for political/espionage purposes.
As far as ‘tragedies that have befallen Russia’, and the whys: No, might things have been better, IF Russia had become Roman Catholic?
Because, then Russia, would have been closer to the…(wonderful/perfect) ‘West’?
You sound like a dedicated Roman Catholic, who has only read of…good things about your church-?
In the Orthodox East, our church has suffered many many centuries of Catholic invasions, despotic Catholic (often the Poles) rule and oppression, looting and destruction of our churches, murder of our clergy, and…endless machinations to, ‘by hook or crook’ steal way our faithful/territories/whole countries, and FORCE them under your Popes, etc. We have no use for or trust in your Papacy, none whatsoever!
And, by the way, Marxism, was not a product of Russian culture, but originally came out of the decay of German culture, Karl Marx being by blood, Jewish, but by culture, VERY Germanic.
His Germanic social reform teachings, were intended for reforming industrialized Germany, not for backward village-oriented Russia. At any rate, it is false to blame Russian-culture, for that foul anti-human system, which aped the ideas of the French Revolution, one of which was that of manditory mass-murder of ‘at least 20% of the population’, in order for the Marxist Utopia to succeed, connected with the brutal teaching of , ‘Total
War’. The Orthodox Church never taught such inhuman ideas, never!
Therefore, to many Russian minds, it has been precisely, The Evil West, that, is what has made their lives so miserable. Putler still teaches this.
Unfortunately, such ideas, do have a use, for those in the Kremlin now.
So, I mean YOU Warren no offense, but you do need to do a little more historical research, and learn a few…rotten facts, of your Popes and their power moves, and that includes, in Russia.
Because such bad history, is behind the on-going Russian distrust and dislike of, ‘the West’.
And, what would using the Latin alphabet, have done for Russia?…or the other slavic nations who use the Cyrilic alphabet? That is a bit naive.
As far as various Protestant missionary activities in Russia today, yes, there are numerous ones, HOWEVER, under Putler’s new, ‘anti-sectarian’ law, he is using that law to hamper and to oust many, out of Russia, One example, he accuses The Salvation Army of being, ‘a foreign military organization’, and of many other NGO’s as being foreign espionage organizations, etc. This new law, also is used against various anti-Moscow Patriarch, Russian Orthodox dissident churches, to crush and to destroy them too. Actually, Putin does show some…reserve…in attacking Catholic enterprises….exactly because your church HAS international clout, and Putler MUST therefore be careful, as he deos not want to offend those abroad who he wants to woo. He has to respect your Pope!
Anyway, Warren, I don’t intend to offend you by my words, but only to try to set some matters straight, that’s all.
Reader Daniel
OOPS! an added point: I didn’t intend to only focus on past Polish invasions and Polish-Catholic harm done to Russians and other east-European Orthodox populations. The dear Catholic Austrians, especially in their ‘Austro-Hungary’ Empire, which encompassed many local Orthodox ethnic peoples, also were quite harsh, and they too, both persecuted the Orthodox church under their rule, in some cases made it simply illegal (as for Orthodox Rusins/Carpatho-Russians/Little Russians, who were forced , under the Pope, in that ‘Unia’),
and made every effort to both stamp out Orthodoxy….and to ‘persuade’ Orthodox to bow to Rome. The Hungarian ruled part of that empire, was particularly harsh, as they also tried to force their culture and their language, on their
subject nationalities., not only their Catholicism. It was exactly, such oppressive treatment, which lead to that assassination of that Hapsburg Heir to the Throne, in Serajevo….by the hands of a Serb, and which is credited with starting WWI.
To us in the west, especially in north America, who never experienced such history, we find it hard to understand that such…past…bad history, still! poisons relations between people today. But, it does. In those parts of the world, rememberance of such wrongs, is virtually never forgotten or forgiven, but merely awaits the right time, to ‘get even’, to get….revenge. This seems to be the whole history of the Balkans…and many other parts of the cultures in that part of the world. That includes Russia also.
HI psalomschick,
You stated:
As to Orthodoxy versus Catholicism, etc, well most Orthodox do NOT desire for our church to be swallowed up by Rome, which has been the Vatican’s aim, for many centuries.
This will never happen. The major difference between Catholics and Orthodox is that the Orthodox does not believe in the Pope. In the Bible Jesus asked Peter to “take His place”.
Matthew 16
18And I say also to thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church: and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven; and whatever thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven.
18 І кажу Я тобі, що ти скеля, і на скелі оцій побудую Я Церкву Свою, і сили адові не переможуть її.
19 І ключі тобі дам від Царства Небесного, і що на землі ти зв’яжеш, те зв’язане буде на небі, а що на землі ти розв’яжеш, те розв’язане буде на небі!
And, nowhere in the bible did Jesus say for Peter to appoint another “Pope”, after Peter passed away.
So, the Catholics and Orthodox are basically the same. It is only their “humanity” that that causes them to bicker. God loves all of his children. [even moskali]
Our Founding Fathers stated, “All men are created equal.”, and mankind has still to learn to practice what They preached.
As for the “New Jesus”:
Matthew 7
15Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits: Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles: 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them, 21Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out demons? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24Therefore whoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him to a wise man, who built his house upon a rock:
15 ¶ Стережіться фальшивих пророків, що приходять до вас ув одежі овечій, а всередині хижі вовки.
16 По їхніх плодах ви пізнаєте їх. Бо хіба ж виноград на тернині збирають, або фіґи із будяків?
17 Так ото родить добрі плоди кожне дерево добре, а дерево зле плоди родить лихі.
18 Не може родить добре дерево плоду лихого, ані дерево зле плодів добрих родити.
19 Усяке ж дерево, що доброго плоду не родить, зрубується та в огонь укидається.
20 Ото ж бо, по їхніх плодах ви пізнаєте їх!
21 ¶ Не кожен, хто каже до Мене: Господи, Господи! увійде в Царство Небесне, але той, хто виконує волю Мого Отця, що на небі.
22 Багато-хто скажуть Мені того дня: Господи, Господи, хіба ми не Ім’ям Твоїм пророкували, хіба не Ім’ям Твоїм демонів ми виганяли, або не Ім’ям Твоїм чуда великі творили?
23 І їм оголошу Я тоді: Я ніколи не знав вас… Відійдіть від Мене, хто чинить беззаконня!
24 Отож, кожен, хто слухає цих Моїх слів і виконує їх, подібний до чоловіка розумного, що свій дім збудував на камені.
Luke 6
45A good man out of the good treasure of his heart, bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart, bringeth forth that which is evil: for from the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. 46And why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47Whoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will show you to whom he is like. 48He is like a man who built a house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
45 Добра людина із доброї скарбниці серця добре виносить, а лиха із лихої виносить лихе. Бо чим серце наповнене, те говорять уста його!
46 Що звете ви Мене: Господи, Господи, та не робите того, що Я говорю?
47 Скажу вам, до кого подібний усякий, хто до Мене приходить та слів Моїх слухає, і виконує їх:
48 Той подібний тому чоловікові, що, будуючи дім, він глибоко викопав, і основу на камінь поклав. Коли ж злива настала, вода кинулася на той дім, та однак не змогла захитати його, бо збудований добре він був!
Many people forget that the kremlin has been secular for about a century:
On March 19, 1922 lenin commands –
Top Secret For members of the Politburo: Now and only now, when people are being eaten in famine-stricken areas, and hundreds, if not thousands, of corpses lie on the roads, we can (and therefore must) pursue the removal of church property with the most frenzied and ruthless energy and not hesitate to put down the least opposition.
The secular uncivilized barbarians in the kremlin will use or abuse any religion to further their evil agenda, and replace the pulpits with KGB, to shrive the Ukrainian people…
Dear Christian Brother, Les,
I heartily agree with almost all you say here. You and I, as with all sincerely religious and moral people, are against evil despotic rulers, such as what is in Moscow today, etc.
But, on one point, what you quote and then give the (much later in history) Catholic interpretation
of Jesus words, about Himself and Peter, etc. on that we do differ.
As well said by a highly placed Roman Catholic Bishop, Bp. Strossmeyer, at the First Vatican Council….: ‘Thou art Peter and on this rock will I build My Church’, – ‘The Fathers never understood that the Church was built on Peter (super Petram), but on the rock (super petrum) of the Apostle’s confession of faith in the Divinity of Christ’.
This understanding of that Gospel passage, was THE norm, throughout the entire Christian world, for many many centuries, and still is in Orthodoxy. But, yes, we admit to the historical fact, that the Church of Rome (‘at Rome’), was founded by the TWO honorary-‘leaders of the Apostles’, Peter AND Paul. But, Christ never appointed a one-‘vicar’ of His on earth. Every valid bishop is His vicar, and all the 12 Apostles were EQUAL in honor and authority. The Apostle Peter was never…their boss, nor were his successors in the See of Rome.
I will try to share a valuable link with you, which if you have the patience to read it, you may find it enlightening….even if you end up not agreeing with it, as it gives the Orthodox positions on various aspects of the Church of Rome, the Papacy, etc. from the pen of a well known Orthodox priest, Fr. Alexey Young, a born Roman Catholic who converted to Orthodoxy, and his reasons why, etc.
‘Christianity Or The Papacy’ by Fr. Alexey Young:
http://www.orthodoxcatechism.com/One/papacy.htm
And, I share this with you, solely! not for argument sake, but so that you understand an Eastern position. To us Orthodox, it is exactly the institution of the Papacy, which is a main
stumbling block between Christian East and West.
And, that matter has ZERO to do with any other issues….except, of course, the Kremlin KGB gangsters do USE such differences between Christians, for their purposes, ‘to divide and conquer’…that is most true.
And, I am most sympathetic to Ukraine, where as far as I have heard, most Catholics and Orthodox and Protestants, Moslems, and others, get along just fine. The Ukraine has actual religious freedom, Putler’s enslaved Russia, does not.
Reader Daniel
Correction! The above quote from Bp. Strossmayer, should read: ‘The Fathers never understood that the Church was built on Peter (super PetrUm), but on the rock ( super petrAm) of the Apostle’s faith in the Divinity of Christ’.
Dear psalomschick,
Ukraine clearly separates church from state, guarantees freedom of conscience to all and thus has remained fertile ground for all religions among them Orthodoxy under the auspices of the Moscow Patriarchate; on the other hand neither Ukrainian Orthodoxy or Catholicism have not been permitted to develop in Russia.
There are 7500 churches in Ukraine belonging to the Moscow Patriarchate. There are no Ukrainian church structures in Russia.
Most of these Churches, and land, were stolen from the Ukrainian people. The kremlin did and does what it does best – steal, rape, kill, and claim that they are “greater” and “glorious”, for centuries. I wrote more about the moskali Orthodox Church, and the occupation and/or destruction of the Kiev and other Ukrainian Churches and priests in my comments at:
http://comments.americanthinker.com/read/42323/393517.html
Sincerely,
LES
Warren, I can buy it. After all, the Virgin Mary wants Russia to be converted.
Off-topic: Stalin’s grandson wants him cleared of murder. Read it without being sick if you can:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/090831/odds/odd_us_stalin
You are referring to one of the request made of the Virgin Mary at Fatima? If you are, the request was not converting Russia, but dedicating Russia. I can’t remember if it was dedicating to the Sacred Heart of Jesus or the Blessed Heart of Mary. If this did not happen, Russia would be “allowed” to “spread her errors throughout the world”. The Vatican claims that this has been done, but others say it never was.
To Osumashi Kinyobe, I have no verifiable information, that: ‘The Virgin Mary wants Russia converted’. And too, even if one wants to believe the (supposed) Fatima Apparitions,… converted from what to what? I thought one Catholic public interpretation said, ‘from athiesm to belief’..?…or was it actually, in secret Vatican halls, ‘from Eastern Orthodoxy to Roman Catholicism’?…we think so, but we don’t believe the Virgin Mary said such dribble.
We Orthodox too, have centuries of appearances of the Virgin Mary, of other saints, and of Christ Himself, and never do we hear any heavenly message that we need to ‘convert’ to Rome!
Quite the opposite, in fact.
Reader Daniel
The Appartitions of Fatima and else where are for personal use only. The Vatican does not compell anyone to believe, but it does investigate the messages. If the “messages” hold true to Catholic teaching, it is okay for believers to listen, be inspired, motivated, etc… by the messages, but they are not deemed to be such that EVERYONE must listen, believe and act upon such messages.
As for the marian messages, if you look at so many of them, the overriding themes are repentence of sins, prayer, and getting closer to the love and heart of Jesus; not converting to a specific religion.
OK Barb, Your imput is noted by me. Thank you for the clarifications.
psalomschik, the Catholic church that was a major factor in empowering the Poles to throw off their Communist yoke. The Polish pope was an affront to the Kremlin and he shepherded his flock with courage and dignity. He was an inspiration to many trapped in the Eastern bloc.
I can also recall Cardinal Mindszenty who was tried, tortured, given a life sentence and lived 15 years in the US embassy before exile.
I’m just putting that our there.
I would think that using the Latin alphabet instead of Cyrillic would be a big plus in minimizing Russia’s isolation. It’s interesting that Putin has proposed using a separate Internet with only Cyrillic domain names which would further isolate Russian internet users from western information.
In the history of the English and their cultural success especially in creating civil societies as we recipients in the Anglosphere can appreciate, historians and linguists propose it was because the English language is so fluid and adaptive and willing to incorporate the foreign and the new.
Keeping a language or written system historically pure is nice, but, not necessarily a virtue or good in the long run.
Well Penny, the Georgian Orthodox Church was a major factor in the Georgians throwing off communism.
Of course unlike the ROC it refused to cooperate with the Kremlin and like the people it served suffered decades of repression.
The Roman Catholic Church has lots of skeletons in its closet too, the Spanish Inquisition springs to mind, or the Roman Catholic Church collaboration with the Nazi’s in France and Poland, in particular the “looking the other way” regards the “Final Solution”.
As for language and alphabet, I understand where you are coming from, but you are somewhat misguided in this. The Georgians have a unique alphabet, and it along with the language it represents is one of the pillars of their identity.
This in no way makes them isolated, as they all speak at least 2 languages, and most youngsters speak english as their second language.
The Russians are isolated not because of their language or alphabet, but because they CHOOSE to remain ignorant and isolated.
To Penny, I was not speaking about recent Popes, or recent Polish actions, or any sort. I was speaking about the historical Polish nation, when it was a powerful military nation, in the 1500’s & 1600’s, and so forth, and when it, under inspiration from Rome, invaded Russian territory and subjegated it…to the Papacy, and to it’s own Polish domination, for a long period, and when it was very cruel and harsh to the Orthodox populations, all to please Rome, which wanted it’s loyal Polish soldiers and princes, to force the ‘Eastern Heretics’ under the Pope, etc. This was most true, in areas of southwest Russia, and in the Ukraine, etc. Such traumatic unfriendly Polish-Roman Catholic actions…have never been forgotten or forgiven by ANY Russians, or Ukrainians either. That is why, most Russians applaud the later Russian-Czar’s punitive subjegation of the eastern part of Poland, for that 130 year plus period (I forget the exact dates).
But, yes, I agree, that the recent Polish Pope did greatly help to cause the downfall of communism, and…as far as I know, he was indeed applauded by many in the former soviet-union.
And yes of course, I praise all who have fought the communist tyrannies….and who still do.
This creates a new common-cause, between people of various religions, ethnicities, etc…some of whom were in former centuries, bitter enemies.
“Adversity makes…strange bedfellows!” is one way to express this reality.
It is irrelevant that I am 1/2 Polish by blood, and born with a very Polish last name.
When I study history, I aim to be…a truth-seeker, no matter who turns out to be praise-worthy or
culpable, right or wrong, etc.
In the tortured history between Russia and Poland, both sides have to own up to guilt, as far as I can see. But, isn’t that true with many nations? Which among them all, is pure as the driven snow?
However, there has been a major difference between Catholic and Orthodox practices and ideas of spreading their respective religions: IN GENERAL!….the Orthodox have not …forced…our religion on others, as that is not the Orthodox approach. But, Rome has a long history of doing such, with much brutality.
Ironically, official recorded Polish history, began, (according to an older Encylopedia Britanica’) , ‘when a Russian prince…on a hunt, accidentially discovered the existence of a Polish prince and his domain’. And in those early days, relations were not hostile. In fact, the most sacred Polish Catholic image of the Virgin Mary, the ‘Chestoshowa Black Virgin’ icon, (spelling?) was a gift from a Russian prince to a Polish prince, as some sort of a friendship gift. And that info came from a Catholic book, printed by the Polish Roman Catholic Paulist-Fathers, of the history of that sacred image.
Anyway, just my random thoughts…….
Reader Daniel
P.S. An added note about the lead article, on that Siberian ‘Christ’: I read somewheres, that many of his devotees are….educated people, not lowly dumb peasant types, and that a major attraction to them, in following him, is that they want to live away from modern civilization, close to the earth, etc. Hense, his location in the wilds of Siberia, (strangely to our view) IS a major attraction for his followers. Yet!….how can they be so DUMB!??? I have no answer to that.
Some Poles, might answer: Because they are Russians! (?)
Shouldn’t it be Jesusky, as Jesuski (ski) would be more Polish than Russian style of name? Just asking.
I could see advantages of switching to the Latin Alphabet in Ukraine. Ukrainian unlike some of the other slavic languages, “falls easily on the ear” (according to Tolstoy). Already there is official transliteration of Ukrainian. (kyiv instead of Kiev)
Getting rid of that foul language of the oppressor and making it easier for dual language with English and the WWW. Isolating Pootin and Ease of entry into Europe.
Screw the artificially created Sino Bulgo Mongo Rashan Gobly Gook, used to Dominate its borders with cultural stultification and ruin. RaSSiyan still can be spoken in Yurts and pigsty.
Rashan is good for two things only.
(1)That is “Old Church Slavonic” where it started and should end.
(2)Rashan cursing, is best used for abusing others, and from desperation it has become another language.
Why am I so angry? Because years ago couple of houses away from me, Rashan Mafia murdered my neighbor in Livingston NJ. He had a beautiful wife and child daughter. Not just a boxer, he had a degree in Physics. Kobozev’s “miss take” was to protect a musician in a night club that was being beaten by a mafioso. They found his body buried in his backyard. I was not there for him and am sorry for that. Here is a link.
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/29/nyregion/two-charged-in-killing-of-russian-boxer.html?sec=&spon=
Why am I not surprised? Nathan Gozman, a Russian mafioso. Thanks for the link, you just deliver!
In case if you din’t know, Natan Gozman is an associate for the Russian mafia.
Being from Poland mean nothing. Richard Kuklinski (“The Iceman”) who was the most notorious hitman ever for the actual (Italian) Mafia in the US and also a Polish person, but he worked for the Gambino “family” (and by “working”, I mean killing lots and lots of people for the Italians).
Also Gozman is a Russian name too. For example, Leonid Gozman is a Russian politician. (Yeah, “Leonid Gozman. I just deliver!”)
Gozman is a Russian name
Gozman is a Russian name
Gozman is a Russian name
write it a hundred times
Ah. So, what name Gozman really is, if not Russian?
They say Natan was from Poland (he was captured in Poland) but he was tracked by the FBI’s Russian mob division. And I never heard about any other Polish person named Gozman.
Now, Gozman the Russian politician:
Leonid Gozman replaces Belykh as leader of Russia’s SPS party
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080926/117143808.html
And now about Natan himself:
Kobozev’s death linked to Russian mob
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=1999929&type=story
Natan Gozman, whom authorities say is a member of the Russian mob, pleaded not guilty to the charges during a brief hearing in Manhattan federal court.
(…)
The indictment alleged that Gozman, who was charged along with two other defendants, killed the boxer to increase his position in a Russian organized crime group known as “Tatarin’s Brigade” or “Bratva,” which prosecutors said is Russian for brotherhood or good fellows.
(…)
Kobozev’s remains were found after a team of nearly two dozen chemists, dentists and engineers spent several days digging through soil in the New Jersey backyard based on a tip received by the FBI. The U.S. Embassy in Moscow was then enlisted to obtain the boxer’s dental and medical X-rays.
OK, I dug up and it’s apparently not Russian, but the modern-day Belarusian. But his organized crime group is not a Belarusian (or Polish), but a Russian one.
Some trivia:
“In 1996 Mikhaylov [the boss of Bratva] was arrested in Switzerland on a variety of charges. However, as he sat in prison awaiting trail and the prosecutors were building their case, a number of key witnesses turned up dead and due to the lack of evidence provided by Russian authorities, a conviction was not possible. He remains free and the boss of the organization today.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solntsevskaya_bratva
More about Natan:
Natan Gozman entered the plea in U.S. District Court in Manhattan, where he was ordered held without bail in the November 1995 murder of Sergei Kobozev, a 31-year-old boxer allegedly murdered in retaliation for breaking up a fight between Russian mobsters in a bar.
The body of Kobozev, a former member of the Soviet national boxing team who moved to the United States in 1990, was found buried in a Livingston, N.J., yard more than three years after he was allegedly confronted at a Brooklyn car-repair shop, shot and driven to New Jersey, where his neck was broken.
Gozman was brought to the United States Thursday from Poland, where he was turned over to agents from the FBI’s Russian-organized crime task force after he lost his efforts to fight extradition.
http://www.warsaw-life.com/news/news/338-Gangster_Pleads_Not_Guilty_In_Boxer_Case
Btw: welcome back, “dild0head”. Guessed right?
Robert, thanks.
A neighbor next door, before the killing, told me that there were men in the back yard next to his, shooting guns and doing physical fitness. They were Russians he said. I asked if they came over his fence. No, was his answer. Then I told him Russians were a people of disorder, more orderly people will come to deal with them. Germans as an old example or Probably Chinese now.
That part of Livingston, Mclellan Avenue has one acre lots that go deep into the back and sort of wooded. A quite bedroom community that is desolate at night. Neighbors barely speak to each other and just wave. Something made me nervous about this fellow and I felt uncomfortable as if he had a dark cloud hanging over him. Even though he had a beautiful family. All these (red wave immigrants) have their own connections, and know everybody else all too well. When the NYC cops, coroners and assorted TV crews parked their cars for easily a mile down the block. The were aiming their cameras on anything. Then they brought a couple of men with black hoods over their heads to the back to show them where the body was. The digging went on for days. The neighbors now talking, and began to doubt anyone would be found. My Mother answered them that there was death, and she could feel its presence. Actually my mother spent two weeks burying fellow students that the Moscali slaughtered when the Germans were approaching. So she knew already.
This particular article spawning a discussion about the merits of Latin script is a great example of why I love this place.
Anyway, Lenin’s early nationalities policy, коренизация, encouraged Russia’s non-Slavic minorities to write their own languages using Latin letters. Most of them — not just Union republic languages like Kazakh and Azeri, but even local languages like Chuvash, Tatar, and Chechen — used Roman scripts during the 20s and early 30s.
Lenin even wanted the Slavs to adopt Latin letters but chose to “pick his battles” and ultimately died before implementing this idea. Trotskyites in particular (like Tatarstan’s Mirsayit Sultangaliyev — fascinating guy) saw Latin script as vital to internationalizing the Bolshevik cause, dismissing Cyrillic as an insular, geopolitical dead-end that discouraged outside communication.
And for that very reason, Stalin’s early “Socialism in one country” phase replaced all the minority Latin alphabets in the late 30s with Cyrillic versions. These were based on the standard Russian alphabet but were usually augmented with extra letters to represent non-Slavic phonemes. Chechen for example had 57 letters in its Cyrillic script versus 33 in its more flexible Latin version. Oy vey.
The problem is that Cyrillic was crafted for the explicit purpose of accommodating Slavic phonemes. Moscow’s non-Slavic subjects — the various Finns, Turks, Caucasians, etc. — speak languages with different (often broader) phonetic inventories. Imagine trying to write English using only the thirteen letters used in Hawaiian. The shoe just doesn’t quite fit such a huge foot.
Sorry to ramble.
This s o n wa b i t c h, should be hanged and killed publicly, How dare he did this Blasphemy in the name of Christ, and those people look at them how they honored him. O people see what Jesus said is now coming to view, that in the last days people will proclaim them self The Christ. All Christians of the world condem this and consider him devil. There is no one accept the One Who is sitting on the right hand of The God.
Alex, actually the people that worship this “Holy Fool” should ask him to walk on water.
A fanatic does not need a rational explanation, there is just a need….
The real S.O.B. is Patriarch Krill of ROC Inc. Krill, his punishment, as you have stated, would be too good for him. I hope that there is an afterlife for this vermin.
Rex, very good. I did not know that about Lenin wanting to switch alphabets to Latin but was messed up by Stalin.
Moscali removed the letter (G) from the Ukrainian alphabet and published a bogus “Ukrainian” dictionary and limmited Ukrainian to Belles Letters. Rashans do not have “H” so why should others have a “G”?
http://www.volgawriter.com/VW%20Cyrillic.htm
What an interesting thread! I cannot but help and notice how accurate/spot on Daniel and George are – you two have certainly done you homework – with your pertinent articles. By this I am not detracting from the rest of you contributor’s input, which again is very good.
For quite some time now I have been a silent admirer/reader of La Russophobe, putting up with the occasional misguided input from some KGB (read SS) propagandist using (so I believe) several various aliases to spread the official – and totally irrelevant to the thread – Putler line.
To the Editors I say thank you for this excellent website.
George
As a matter of interest the Germans in WWII used to have a laugh at the Russians expense, because of the latter not having the letter ‘H’ in their alphabet and hence they used to call Hitler – as Gitler.
Furthermore, the Ukrainian alphabet (i.e. cyrillic (which may I add derives from the Greek alphabet) has both the G and H, although for some reason the H is rarely used; and is similar to the cyrillic G, except it has an added upward small vertical line on the right side where the horizontal stroke finishes.
Apologies for the ‘typo’ errors! Please transpose the the last H which should read G, and the G which should read H.
This devil person should beaten publicly and hanged till death or burned alive. How dare he did this and proclaimed him self Christ. O Christians of the world see the Christ words are proving its self that a time will come when people like this will proclaim them self christ. The time is near and we have to look at our selves what we are doing. We have to end the denominations in Christianity. We are one, our Gospel is one, our Prophet is one, our God is one, and our book is one. Refrain your self by following false teachings and missionaries like mormons. We have to accept Christ inits true sence. And those who commit Blasphemy in the name of Christ we have to hang them…
@This devil person should beaten publicly and hanged till death or burned alive.
I’m sorry, but the Spanish Inquisition disbanded in 1834 :)
From Where We Start!!
There are so many denomination today in Christianity that even Christians dont know about it through out the world. What is this? Christ never belongs to any specific church?He was for the whole world but not for a single nation as may be some one are there who think that. Just take a look Catholics, they have thier own traditions and customs. they put idols in church considering it Christ and Marry. This is the greatest Sin and Christ forbidden us to do that, but they are practicing it regularly. Catholics but crown on stone made marry. that is also a sin. Look what mormons doing, They have introdused a laterday prophet joseph smith. they have their own man made book of mormon which they associate to God. and like this there are more churches commiting this kind of Sin. but who stoped them by doing this? Christian governements should look into this and not allow such things in thier own nations and on the other hand christian people should consider their part of responsibility that they stand against people like this. Church is now became money making machine and nothing. We have to take examples from muslims. I dont want to discuss what they do or practice but see how they give respect to their religion and their religious books. We are away from Christian doctrain, rather we have made things easier to access like drugs,adultery etc etc. Being Christian and living in muslim country I know what hardships a single christian has to face in anywalk of life, but still I say I am luck as I am not commting those sins that practiced in christian nations. Please dont consider negative what I have written but fact is this what i have said.
That’s for a change for the Russian living god, who is a former KGB officer from Leningrad.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/1382860/Pro-Putin-cult-urges-return-to-Soviet-glory.html
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,514891,00.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/05/opinion/05iht-edhammer.1.6509812.html
@Jesuski
Russian would be rather something like “Jesusov”.
An another “Russian mystic”:
http://news.scotsman.com/beslanschoolsiege/Cult-head-conned-parents-with.2765157.jp
The cult leader’s activities provoked a split among the Beslan mothers who had been campaigning against an alleged cover-up of the events surrounding the school siege and its bloody aftermath, which they believe happened because of officials’ negligence.
The leader of the Beslan Mothers’ Committee, Susanna Dudiyeva, who lost her 13-year-old son Zaur in the siege, appeared on stage next to Grabovoi at the Cosmos Hotel last September saying she believed in the power of resurrection in footage shown on national television.
Other mothers alleged the authorities had deliberately drawn some of them to the cult in an effort to discredit their persistent efforts to shed light on the tragedy, which had become an embarrassment for president Vladimir Putin.
I cannot help but remember Ukrainian Cardinal Slipyj, who was let out of a Siberian prison on one condition – that he could not speak publicly or make public appearances.
The Russians tried to stamp out not only the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, but also the Ukrainian Catholic Church. They still are.
Today there is freedom of religion in Ukraine.
Baptists, Lutherans, Mennonites – they have all been around Ukraine for a long time.
In fact, Catherine, who was Prussian, but became a tsarina in Russia, invited Germans into Russia and the Russian-controlled territory in Ukraine, and gave them more privileges and rights than Ukrainians had.
Trotsky went to a Lutheran school, even though he was Jewish.
What is really funny is that the Orthodox view the Roman Catholics as “heretics” – as “falling away from the one true church.”
The Catholics, in turn, also view themselves as the “one true faith.”
The Baptists, in turn, also view themselves as the “one true faith.”
Muslims, in turn, also view themsleves as the “one true faither” – and everyone else is an infidel.
Ukraine accepted Christianity in 988 A.D. Monotheism was on the rise, and it was useful for rulers to adopt a state religion.
Constantine used Christianity as a political tool.
The problem in rasha is not that it is not Roman Catholic.
The problem in rasha is people who willinglly accept authoritarian government – encouraged by the oily orthodox moozer rasha “church.”
Plus, they can’t pronounce “th”, as in the Greek letter, theta.
And they don’t have a letter “h” – so it sounds like they are constantly choking on something.
Intersting the contrast between Russians and Georgians.
When Lutherians and “Old Believer” Russian Orthodox were being persecuted in Tsarist Russia, many migrated to Georgia where they are part of the local community to this day.
In addition if you go to old Tbilisi, within 100 metres you will see, a Georgian Orthodox Cathedral, a Moslem Mosque, a Jewish Synagogue, a Catholic Church, and a Lutherian Church.
True Orthodox believers are taught tolerance for other religions, and are taught that God saves those who are worthy, regardless of religion. As my father confessor explained to me “There are some who do not outwardly appear Christian, but God sees as Christian in their hearts, and there are those who appear Christian, but are not”.
True Orthodoxy hopes and prays that ALL will be saved.
Andrew, I don’t think the point is whether true Orthodox believers are “tolerant” of other religions.
And every single religion welcomes new believers – well, except, for example, those that require special qualifications, such as Orthodox Judaism (one must be born Jewish – no others need apply).
The issue is whether the state, at the point of a gun, can tell you which religions to “tolerate” and which religions not to “tolerate.”
And the HUGE problem in rasha is, that while maintaining a circus of a church, complete with wizard costumes, rashans don’t go to church – but through the government, will not tolerate any encroachment on the Ku Klux Klan oily orthodox church.
In the West, freedom of religion is basic, and very important, and the government has no say-so in how anyone worships.
In rasha – it’s Ku Klux Klan wizard Halloween costume time.
Even if noone goes.
So no wonder people flock to “Jesus of Siberia.”
They may not want to worship stalin, or Putler – or Kirill and his $36,000 watch.
Dear psalomschick,
I have scores of friends with which we have been discussing many of the topics, on this website, for decades. This is what one friend wrote when I mentioned this article:
Look up the word Rock in strong’s concordance and you’ll see Peter is thestone not boulder which is the Greek word used in Mat 16:18.
Only Christ canbe the Rock the church is built on. Christ is the (head corner) stone thatwas rejected (Matt 21:42, Mark 12:10, Luke 20:17).
The Matthew scripture is the scripture that does give Peter the position as head of the church as ahuman after Christ ascended back to heaven. This is correct. He was the earthly leader of the church. To say the church was built on Peter is incorrect. The church cannot rest its foundation on a human being. When researching further, Pater (father) or Peter was an old title going back toBabylonian times of the Babylonian mystery religion. In acts 8 simon the sorcerer was already trying to infiltrate and buy a position in the true church. He was rebuked by Peter and cast off. It is he who is most likely buried in Rome and not Peter at St. Peter’s Basilica. There is absolutely noindication whatsoever of Peter ever being in Rome anywhere in the bible. The scriptures and historical facts are indisputable. This is this. “Tak je botak je” as father would say.
MM
“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of thatspiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ” (1Cor 10:4).“And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer” (2Sam22:2)Matt 16:15-20:He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of theliving God.17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which isin heaven.18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I willbuild my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.“And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou artSimon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is byinterpretation, a stone” (John 1:42).
Examine the context closely. Peter was called a stone (Cephas not Petra).Peter is a stone not a boulder(Christ). This may seem confusing at first but I provided other biblical references that would make it clear. The Church ofGod’s foundation can only be built on Christ, a God being. The context of Matt 16:15-18 is about the Messiah not Peter. Christ asks Peter who Peter thinks Jesus is. Jesus is talking about building the church on the Messiah.Verse 19 is about Peter’s assigned position and authority. Only Peter was given this great authority. No other biblical character was given this amount of authority before or after. It is why he was called Cephas. This scripture can very easily be misunderstood, particularly when the context is not examined. Look at it closely.There is a governing structure to the Church of God. Look closely at Rev 1:1:1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signifiedit by his angel unto his servant John”. God The Father gives the revelation to Christ first, than it’s given to the angel, and only then to John, a human being. Rev 2 & 3 is prophecy of the true church. Christ leads it and is the head of it, not Peter (Rev 1:13). I’ve already written too much buthere it is.
MM
To Les, BUT! the historical facts are, that in both east and west in the first 800-900 years of the Christian Church’s history, ALL!…Church Fathers, both Latin and Greek,…what is called, ‘The Mind of The Church’, never accorded to the Apostle Peter, the sole headship of the Church, but rather to all 12 Apostles, including all the powers that Christ bestowed on His Apostles (not just Peter) and their successors (such as, to forgive or retain sins, etc.). Don’t forget too, that in both Orthodox-Catholic and Roman-Catholic understanding of what the Christian Faith consists of, are both, Holy Scripture AND Holy Tradition. In fact, the Bible is part of Holy Tradition….and the Christian religion came BEFORE the New Testament was written down.
In other plain words: the Church! wrote the Bible!, not the other way around. The Protestants goofed on that one.
The explanations of the Faith, interpretations of the meaning of Holy Scripture, doctrine, worship, the structure of the church institution, and various other realities of Christian life and practice, etc. ….these fundamental elements of the Christian religion (east and west)….these are what the Fathers of the Church preached about and explained. , and what were decided at the First Seven Ecumenical Councils. In all that time, there was NO one Vicar of Christ, or One Ruler-over-all, Pope of Rome! None of them gave Apostle Peter, the sole headship of the Church Universal, none!..and .not to his successors on the See of Rome.
Nor did any recognize the Church of Rome as The Head of the universal-Catholic Church….but only…’a place of honour, due to it being the capital city of the empire’ ,etc.
As far as Peter being in Rome, and dying there, etc. …that is universally accepted by many evidences. It doesn’t matter, if the details are not spelled out in the New Testament. MANY many! aspects/subjects of the Early Church era, are not mentioned in the New Testament. Also, how many early Christian writings and testimonies and records, were destroyed in all the fierce persecutions. That erroneous mindset, ..i.e. if we cannot find it mentioned of, in the Bible, then….we do not have to believe it, etc, is the much later rebellious-Protestant ‘sola scriptora’ (‘the Bible only!’) frame of mind slant, which is anti-historical to the Christian religion. The actual history and facts are: The Church came first, and THEN it approved the books of the Bible, (both Old and New Testaments) and it explains the meaning of them. The Bible was never intended to be taken outside the Church, ever.
Again, the Mind of The Church, east and west, for 800-900 years, and of the Orthodox Church still, is that Christ did not appoint one MAN, as His earthly head of His Church, rather all bishops, all equally, successors to the 12 Apostles, are His vicarS!….and every Christian believer is His representative to the world.
In a real sense, therefore, in the Orthodox world, EVERY BISHOP….is a POPE! (a ‘Holy Father’).
Roman Papal claims/’pretentions’, to the otherwise, began to be mumbled in Rome, only in the late 800-900”s, and they were usually rejected most strongly, by Western bishops, and by Popes of Rome the most vocally. However, such growing claims and falsified documents, such as ‘The False Decretals of Peter’, reached an apex just before the Great Schism dated at 1054 AD, and indeed they were THE major cause of the break between the Latins and the Greeks., between Old Rome and New Rome. They became stronger, it seems, due to a perceived need for the Bishop of Rome to assume more civil/worldly authority and power, as old Rome began to crumble due to barbarian invasions, etc. The Bishop/Pope of Rome became the sole authority figure, to rally resistance and unity, against the barbarians, as old Rome disintegrated., bit by bit.
But, but, but!
We are trying to delve into a huge mountain of history, in such deep subjects,…too much for this blog.
But when you quote all those scriptural verses, and then try to build a house upon them,….without referring to what has already, long ago, been explained by the Fathers and saints,
what you end up with is but a set of riddles and dead-end reasoning, conclusions which do not really jive with historic Christian believe or practice.
The Bible, by itself, does not give us all the answers! It was never meant to, as the Faith is a living reality, not something locked up in one book, and it has continued from after the last written word of the Book of Revelation….till now.
And when the Bible is taken out of the Church…which produced and blessed it, it becomes …what? It is both a source for much truth, and also a major cause for much confusion and division, even lunacy. Just look at the present Christian world now.
Reader Daniel
every one contributed well to their knowledge. But issue is that are we now still in a mood to allow such Blasphemy in the name of Christ and show the second world what regard we have for our Religion Christianity? and practically I experince all that as I live in a muslim country I know what remarks they pass on us and on our religion. Just look whats going on in europe and west. It seems that christianity has been amended according to our own will. Freedom of sex and nudisim,freedom of alchololic drinks and no regard for women who became a toy for mens enjoyment,childrens are reaching to earlier puberty,unlawful physical relations and bearing child just to get funds from the governement?No regard of parents, No ethics of wearing dress and covering private parts of body? These are the main causes that put stain on christianity. This is not what Jesus practiced or teached! we to look in our shirts what we are doing. We should not allow man made prophets like joseph smith introdused by mormons and we should not allow those who say they are jesus (God forgive) we should not allow catholics to keep stone made figures of Jesus and Marry in church. We should not allow pornography, we should not allow are daughters and sisters to have illigal and unholy relationship with other man. We should not allow other religions to point fingers on our people and religion throughout the world. we should make Bible study mendatory to every level of eduction for every children. Commiting sin is easy and following Gods commandement is difficult but if we wont start it today, we wont be able to start it tommorow.
For he will come like a thief in the night, and it will be too late to repent.
I appriciate all those who contributed in this thread. But, What Alex said, Is really Important. Yes we do need to judge our self, what we are doing and what we have done. Being a doctor myself I have so many cases of innocent girls who have been made pregnant by thier boy friends. They never been educated about taking care of them selves, they dont know what Bible says about adultery, they dont know what sin they have commited. This is only a single example of our wrong deeds, we are commiting all sorts of sins that God Almighty refrained us to do. I pray that Christianity should move away from all bad things and follow Gods words.
*cough*Waco, TX*cough*.
And of course image-of-jesus tree and sandwich worshipers both in the Ukraine, Russia and the States. Nutjobs are common in largely religious or otherwise brainwashed societies.
Oh I don’t know, atheists have more than their fair share of retards, look at yourself for example Sergey.
BTW, communism, the greates mass killer of history was an atheist doctrine. There are more nutjobs come out of Communist Russia and China than anywhere else, not to mention mass murderers, genocidal maniacs, and corrupters of society.
Atheists are responsible for many of the ills that plague our society.
In response to SS’s comments elswhere about those scientificly minded not believing in God, more BS.
Many of the greatest developments in science were made by religious men, or those who believed in a creator. Not the least Newton and Einstein
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science
So SS (what an apropriate tag for you), wrong as usual.
BS? You misinterprenting my words on every occasion is BS.
1) I was talking about modern US scientists, and 2) I told they are MUCH LESS RELIGIOUS thatn general population, not irreligious.
You cna chekc that claim and it’s true.
As for scientists of old – Einstein in his own lifetime had change to refute the claim jumped upon by Christian apologetics – he did not believe in personal god, just in some (impersonal?) guiding force or principle behind a universe.
Newton/etc – of course they wre religious, that is because in his time most people was uber-religious. Still, there are more doublters and open atheists among scientists than among “general population”. Look at Franklin’s quotes abou religion for instance and compare with mindset of puritan New England.
Sergey Shelukhin,
Maybe religion is response to stress and hopelessness. Lives, that which cannot be dealt with. Other than resorting to suicide or mass murder. I have known many that were truly good and exemplary people. Could be trusted completely, and yet spent so much time in church.
2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 Do not have any other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.
9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work.
10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.
12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
13 You shall not murder.
14 You shall not commit adultery.
15 You shall not steal.
16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
Andrew – communism was a religion.
One had to worship lenin, the “green corpse” laying in the glass case. Then one also had to worship stalin, the “father of all.”
Every Sunday, people put flowers around assorted statues of lenin.
Lenin’s “writings” were taught as if they were the Bible.
The list goes on.
It was a state religion.
And now we have Kirill and moozer rasha oily orthodox church wanting to make a saint out of stalin.
That tells you something about communism – AND the mooza rasha oily orthodox “church.”
Thats very true Elmer,
Communism was like a religion, but then again so too is atheism, atheists tend to be fanatical and violently bigoted against believers in any faith.
Your comments about the KGB led Russian Church are also correct, interesting to note that when the Russians started talking about making Stalin a Saint, the head of the Georgian Church stated that that would be an “evil heresy” and “a crime against God”.
Just shows the difference.
To Andrew, “when the Russians started talking about making Stalin a saint, the head of the Georgian Church stated that that would be an ‘evil heresy’and ‘a crime against God’.
Hurray! for the Georgian Catholocos-Patriarch Ilia!
Of course, many in Russia also know how ridiculous this idea is, and what a blasphemy to call such an evil mass-murdering monster as Joseph Stalin, a…’saint’! Even a number of Moscow Patriarchy, bishops and priests, though an unfree pretend church under KGB control from the top down, have also spoken publically against such an outrage as that. It makes Russia look bad, in the eyes of the whole world. But….it seems, that Putin may want it, as Stalin is his hero.
However, those who desire this absurd idea, when asked, …but WHY? is Stalin a saint?
They respond, ….’because he saved the church and the nation, and because he had been in a seminary’, and other such NONSENSE!
Hitler, has been mockingly nicknamed, ‘The Vienna Choir Boy’ from his youth, when he was a Catholic altar boy, in Vienna.
But, with both Stalin and Hitler……something seemed to go wrong, in their adult lives!(?)….or was all that just our world-wide imagination?
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