EDITORIAL: Vladimir Putin Speaks neo-Soviet Gibberish Fluently

EDITORIAL

Vladimir Putin Speaks neo-Soviet Gibberish Fluently

stalin_putinOn a visit last week to Abkhazia, Vladimir Putin reminded the world just how deep his KGB roots run. He spewed lies so ridiculous, so totally detached from reality, as to bespeak the worst and most humiliating moments of Soviet-era gibberish.

Putin claimed that “practically all of international society” blames Georgia for the August war with Russia. When asked how this could be so since the overwhemling majority of Westerners openly condemn Russian aggression and have refused to recognize either Ossetia or Abkhazia, Putin explained: “In the West, what is called the West, we have plenty of supporters. They are all under a certain pressure from NATO’s leading country, the United States. And, to put it bluntly, many of them don’t publicly state their positions, because they would then diverge from the U.S. position.”

Paranoia and lies from a classic neo-Soviet man.

Putin is, in other words, just as much detached from real information about the world and feedback about his own perfomrance as any Soviet ruler ever was.  The notion that the Internet has somehow opened Russia to a free flow of real information is simply nonsense.  Most Russians have no Internet access, and Mr. Putin clearly doesn’t.  Like the infamous Emperor with his “new clothes” Putin simply has no idea now ridiculous he sounds because nobody around him will say so.  Why would they, when Putin’s critics routinely get shot in the head just as they did in time of Stalin?

It’s not only us here at LR who think so.  The Financial Times  (via Anders Aslund) proclaims Putin detached from reality in devloping his “botched” policy toward Ukraine which has polarized and alienated what should be one of Russia’s closest friends.

The Kremlin is, just as it always has been, drunk on a sea of propaganda and self-delusion.  The people of Russia do not know, and it seems their leaders don’t either, that they stand utterly alone, befriended only by rogue states like Venezuela, Nicaragua and Iran.  They really believe the world loves them, but is just afraid to say so.  The fact that no civilized nation has recognized Ossetia and Abkhazia, they really believe, is all due to American-led conspiracies.  Yet, though apparently viewing the US as omnipotent, Russia has no problem threatening and menacing the US with nuclear bombers and submarines on a daily basis.  If America really were as powerful as Putin claims, that policy would be suicide.

And yet Putin does not see the contradiction in his own words, because he has become used to always being right.  Just like Stalin, he is totally disconnected from reality and hence far more dangerous to Russia than any foreign enemy.

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51 responses to “EDITORIAL: Vladimir Putin Speaks neo-Soviet Gibberish Fluently

  1. Who was originally on the poster? KV?

  2. It’s not only us here at LR who think so. The Financial Times (via Anders Aslund)

    Yup, not only nameless trolls like you, but also bankrupts like Åslund! His professional reputation is totally destroyed by the fruit of his activities as an advisor to the Gay-dar govt in the 1990s. Referencing to him is utterly futile (frankly, like ev’rything you do).

    LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:

    So, as we understand, you feel that YOU, an anonymous idiot who does nothing but leave comments on other people’s blogs, is wiser about Russia THAN THE FINANACIAL TIMES, one of the worlds most respected and powerful publications?

    Uh, OK. Have a nice crack pipe dream, you hopelessly inconsquential moron. If WE are utterly futile, what does that make somebody who doe nothing but COMMENT on our blog? Huh? Think about it, ape.

    • Åslund isn’t respected by anyone, maybe except for his sponsors (if any, though). And it’s you who are such a hilarious ape (yet very autistic and serious about yourself which adds to your laughableness) so that I have a chance to have a free circus show here and that’s exactly why I visit you stinky blog, just for lulz.

      • Which weet-a-bix packet did you get your PHD from dittohead?

        Having looked at your blog (by the looks nobody else has), calling others autistic is right up your alley, but I suggest you take a look in the mirror.

  3. Sergey Shelukhin

    Meh. You take words of Putin who just says that world believes Georgia started the war, then falsely claim it’s a lie (even though it’s in fact true – the reports I saw after the dust has settled blamed Russia for too big of a response but did state that Georgia was the aggressor), and then blow them completely out of proportion as if Putin was alleging he has a lot of friends in general sense among the world community – which he admittedly doesn’t, but which he doesn’t strive for, either.
    And he’s completely on the spot about US pressure – it was especially obvious when the dust HASN’T settled and amid lack of basic information the USA was the first to heap the blame on Russia – you cannot invade US zone of influence, you see! Good thing they were proven wrong times and times again by Western newspapers and institutions afterwards.

    If you want someone deranged, why don’t you post a video of Saakashvili chewing that tie, like a petty hooligan caught red-handed (which, in fact, he is).

    It is especially funny to read your articles about how Russia is collapsing, being a Moscow resident who moved to Vancouver a couple of years ago and goes back periodically. You know, some people can actually compare how things are going, how many people lost their jobs, how are prices, or whatever.

    • Actually dickhead, the fact is that Georgia was reacting to separatist & Russian “peacekeeper” attacks on Georgian civillians and police in the weeks leading up to the war.

      A couple of days before the Georgian attack began, after heavy shelling of Georgian villages by separatists, the head of the Russian “peacekeepers” signed a statement saying that the separatists were using banned artillery, and that they were out of control.

      What do you expect Georgia to do?

      What would the Russian federation do? We all know the answer, in Russia’s case it kills 1/4 of the population of Chechnya.

      You sir, are a typical Russian hypocrite, devoid of morals, devoid of honour, and devoid of any semblance of the truth.

      • Sergey Shelukhin

        You are a typical man in his pajamas blogging from his bedroom, as CBS guy once said.
        Where is that statement. I found two on this very site
        1) Russians saying they do not control separatists
        2) Georgians saying that separatists used banned artillery, which cannot be verified, and which some of other Georgian ministers reportedly denied (source: this site, 8/7/8)

        So don’t cook your facts – petty dictator Saakashvili invented a good cause for his naughtiness but was caught by Russians :)

        Fresh news, btw:

        “In a soon-to-be-published report, the European Union is expected to place the responsibility for starting the South Ossetia war on Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili. Georgia is already taking pre-emptive measures to deflect blame, with Georgian media accusing SPIEGEL of being a “mouthpiece for Putin.”

        All world is mouthpiece for Putin, the same Putin whom everybody hates according to this article.

        Previously:
        Unpublished documents produced by the European Union commission that investigated the conflict between Georgia and Moscow assign much of the blame to Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili. But the Kremlin and Ossetian militias are also partly responsible.

        Hel-lo! I understand you want t oassign all the blame to Russia, but the world doesn;t agree with you, as in every situation there’s no white and black but Georgia is very dark-grey!

        Oh yeah, and I’m always forgetting, Kosovo anyone?

        • Sergey Shelukhin

          Err… not this site.
          http://www.eurasianet.org, I was looking at wrong tab

        • @”Unpublished documents produced by the European Union commission”

          Show me them, please.

          Or maybe you meant this published article produced by the FSB?

          • Sergey Shelukhin

            So Spiegel is a mouthpiece of Putin too? What kind of source do you need, God almighty?

            • In God we trust.

            • Der Spiegel has been repeatedly embarrased by its poor journalism in regard to this issue.

              The first time it tried to claim that EU & OSCE monitors condemned Georgia this was denied by both organisations, as was the recent Der Spiegel article.

              Really Sergey, you once again expose yourself as the typical retarded Russian effwit

              http://euobserver.com/?aid=26669

              • Sergey Shelukhin

                But for some reason the tie-chewer Saakashvili rushed to “reply” to this non-existent report.

                If you don’t like EU, how about HRW?
                http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/world/europe/23iht-georgia.4.19638768.html

                Blames both, Georgia started first.
                The report calls the Georgian shelling “indiscriminate” and a violation of international humanitarian law, in large part because it used Grad multiple rocket launching systems, which are notoriously inaccurate.

                Human Rights Watch also found that Georgia used cluster bombs, weapons that eject dozens or hundreds of bomblets and spread them over a large area.

                If media was consistent in its BS definition of “genocide” it would have to blame Georgia of the smae genocide it blames Israel, but political considerations do not allow it to side with Russia.

                Russia, on the other hand, conducted war and left rape and pillage to the natives – who are, according to Saakashvili, also citizens of Georgia. I say, screw South Ossetia, let it re-join Georgia, barbarians unite!

                Anyway, let’s wait for EU report to come out. Although you’d probably say that delay was because it was sent to Putin to make corrections.

                • Wrong retard.

                  Russian troops did commit rapes (although not as many as the “volunteer” cossack and north ossetian filth), and they stood by while Russian “citizens” (Cossack & North Ossetian) and separatist militia comitted these atrocities.
                  Under international law, Russia as the occupying power was ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE for all rapes, murders, and ethnic cleansing.

                  Russia planned and executed an ethnic cleansing campaign. It has gained 2 bases south of the Caucasus mountains for power projection.

                  Russian flith such as yourself still have wet dreams of domination and empire.

                  If only you would evolve into something resembling civilised homo sapiens, the world would be a better place.

                  Alas, given its failings, Russian culture seems an evolutionary dead end.

              • Sergey Shelukhin

                OSCE:

                http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/16/AR2008081600502_pf.html

                Western officials in and around South Ossetia also recorded the troop and armor movement, according to a Western diplomat who described in detail on-the-ground reports by monitors from the OSCE. The monitors recorded the movement of BM-21s in the late afternoon.

                “On Thursday — Thursday afternoon — they noticed equipment and troops on the road, rolling to Karaleti,” a Georgian village near Gori, the diplomat said. Kezerashvili said the BM-21s moved Thursday night.

                At 7 p.m., with troops on the march, Saakashvili went on national television and declared a unilateral cease-fire. “We offer all of you partnership and friendship,” he said to the South Ossetians. “We are ready for any sort of agreement in the interest of peace.”

                IISS:

                http://www.iiss.org/whats-new/iiss-in-the-press/press-coverage-2008/september-2008/georgia-and-ukraine-shouldnt-join-nato/

                balance of evidence suggests Georgia has started the war

                • What part of “South Ossetian militia shelled Georgian villages for 7 days before Georgia retaliated” do Russians such as yourself have so much trouble understanding?

                  From Andrei Illarionov

                  Hell, some Russians can understand what went on perfectly well (although they are obviously a bit more intelligent, honest, and have morals unlike yourself)

                  Timeline of Events in the
                  Russians Invasion & Occupation of Georgia
                  As of 21:30, August 16, 2008, 21:30

                  The information below is accurate to the best of our knowledge,
                  but is subject to verification.

                  1 AUGUST
                  A pickup truck carrying six Georgian police officers is blown up by separatists.
                  • At 08:00, a pickup truck carrying six Georgian police officers is hit by two remote-control explosive devices on the Eredvi-Kheiti bypass road linking Georgia proper with the Didi Liakhvi Gorge, a Georgian enclave north of the breakaway region’s capital Tskhinvali. Five of the six Georgian policemen are severely wounded.
                  • The Government of Georgia decides not to retaliate in order not to escalate the situation.

                  2 AUGUST
                  Six civilians and one Georgian policeman are injured by gunfire coming from South Ossetian territory controlled by Russian peacekeepers.
                  • Six civilians and one Georgian policeman are injured by gunfire coming from South Ossetian territory controlled by Russian peacekeepers, following the shelling of Georgian villages in the South Ossetian conflict zone overnight.
                  • The Georgian-controlled villages of Zemo Nikozi, Kvemo Nikozi, Nuli, Avnevi, Eredvi, and Ergneti come under intense fire from the South Ossetian separatists with large-caliber mortars.
                  • Georgian law enforcers initially shoot back in self-defense, but are soon ordered to cease fire in order not to escalate the situation.

                  3 AUGUST
                  The separatist government of South Ossetia begins evacuating civilians.A
                  • At 12:00, the South Ossetian separatist government announces the evacuation of more than 500 people, including about 400 children. However, Ermak Dzansolov, deputy prime minister of Russia’s North Ossetian Republic, tells Russia’s Interfax news agency that this is not in fact an evacuation. He explains that the children had long planned to attend a summer-camp program in North Ossetia.
                  • Russian media outlets, meanwhile, launch a massive propaganda campaign to whip up public sentiment against Georgia.
                  • At 13:00, the South Ossetian separatist government calls for the mobilization of volunteers across the North Caucasus.

                  4 & 5 AUGUST
                  Throughout both days, separatist forces in territories controlled by Russian peacekeepers fire on villages inhabited by ethnic Georgians loyal to the pro-Georgian South Ossetia government. No casualties are reported.

                  6 AUGUST
                  16:00. Separatists reject plea for negotiations and refuse to meet with Georgia’s envoy for conflict resolution, Temur Yakobashvili, who has traveled to Tskinvali to meet with them.
                  • Temur Yakobashvili, Georgia’s chief negotiator and its state minister for reintegration, says in late-night televised remarks that the Georgian government is seeking a direct dialogue with the separatist authorities in order to reverse the deteriorating security situation. Mr. Yakobashvili says that Russia’s Ambassador-at-large Yuri Popov would attend the talks as a facilitator. The South Ossetian chief negotiator, Boris Chochiev, refuses to take part in any negotiations.

                  20:00. South Ossetian para-militaries open mortar fire on villages inhabited by ethnic Georgians.
                  • Separatists open mortar fire on Georgian populated villages of Eredvi, Prisi, Avnevi, Dvani, and Nuli. Georgian government forces fire back in order to defend their positions and the civilian population.
                  • As a result of intensive cross-fire during the night, two servicemen of the Georgian battalion of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces are injured. The separatist regime also claims several of their forces are hurt.
                  • Despite these provocative, targeted attacks on peaceful civilians and on Georgian police and peacekeeping forces, the Government of Georgia decides not to respond with heavy fire, in order not to injure civilians.

                  7 AUGUST
                  09:00. South Ossetian separatist government leader threatens to “clean Georgians out” from the region.
                  • In a morning interview with Russian news agencies, South Ossetian de facto president Eduard Kokoity declares that if the Georgian government does not withdraw its military forces from the region, he would start “to clean them out.” The Georgian military forces to which he refers are peacekeepers who are legally present in the South Ossetia conflict zone.

                  09:45. A Russian military jet drops bombs near a Georgian military radar based 30 kilometers outside of the conflict zone.
                  • According to local civilian witnesses, at about 09.45, a fighter plane, presumed to be Russian (it enters Georgia from the South Ossetian conflict zone) drops 3-5 bombs near the village of Shavshvebi, approximately 300-500 meters from the location of a Georgian military radar.

                  15:00. For the second time in two days, the separatist government of South Ossetia refuses to negotiate with Georgian envoy Temur Yakobashvili, who again travels to Tskhinvali to plead for peace.
                  • Yakobashvili visits the conflict zone in the morning of August 7 to meet with representatives of the separatist government. The separatists refuse to meet or negotiate with him. Instead, Yakobashvili confers in Tskhinvali with Marat Kulakhmetov, commander of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces.

                  16:00. Three Georgian servicemen from the Georgian peacekeeping battalion are injured by paralimitary troops.
                  • Separatist militia resume shelling the Georgian villages of Nuli and Avnevi.
                  • Three Georgian servicemen are injured after the South Ossetian separatist forces blow up an infantry combat vehicle belonging to the Georgian peacekeeping battalion in Avnevi.
                  • Georgian police respond by firing towards the separatist militia in the village of Khetagurovo, where two separatist militiamen are killed and two more wounded.
                  • Later, the Georgian peacekeeping checkpoint in Avnevi is bombed and several Georgian servicemen and civilians are killed.

                  18:30. The President of Georgia announces a unilateral cease fire.
                  • Georgia announces a unilateral ceasefire in an attempt by the Government to defuse tensions. Temur Yakobashvili, the Georgian state minister for reintegration and envoy for conflict resolution, says at a press conference at 18:40 that he is continually seeking to contact the separatist authorities, but without success.

                  20:00. President Saakashvili calls on Russia to recall those of its officials who are members of the South Ossetia separatist government.
                  • President Saakashvili, speaking with journalists at the military hospital in Gori (where he is visiting two injured Georgian servicemen), reaffirms that despite the deadly attacks on Georgian villages, the Government of Georgia is showing maximum restraint. The President also calls on Russia to “to recall its officials” from South Ossetia, who are members of the so-called South Ossetian government.

                  20:30. Despite Georgia’s unilateral cease-fire, the village of Avnevi in the South Ossetia conflict zone— inhabited by ethnic Georgians— is totally destroyed by mortar fire.
                  • Despite Georgia’s unilateral ceasefire, the Georgian village of Avnevi again comes under fire from South Ossetian militiamen. The village is totally destroyed.

                  21:00. The Security Council of the separatist government threatens to employ Russian Cossack mercenary troops fight Georgian peacekeepers.
                  • The chairman of the separatist republic’s Security Council, Anatoly Barankevich, says that armed Cossack militia from North Ossetia are heading towards South Ossetia to fight Georgian peacekeepers.

                  22:30. Separatist paramilitaries attack the Georgian-controlled village of Prisi, leaving several civilians wounded.

                  23:30. Heavy shelling by separatist forces destroy Georgian police stations on the administrative border of South Ossetia.
                  • Separatist authorities open fire on all Georgian checkpoints around the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali at about 23:30, including those located near the villages of Tamarasheni and Kurta. The police stations in the Georgian Kurta is destroyed as a result of heavy shelling.

                  23:30. 100 Russian armored vehicles and Russian troops invade Georgia, crossing the Roki Tunnel from Russia into Georgia
                  • The Government of Georgia receives reliable information from three separate sources that approximately 100 armored vehicles and trucks of the Russian armed forces, filled with Russian soldiers, are passing from Russia over the border of Georgia through the Roki Tunnel and are heading towards Tskhinvali. The Russian Federation is thus directly violating the sovereignty of Georgia, as these new forces are regular Russian military and not peacekeepers.

                  http://aillarionov.livejournal.com/12380.html

                  Now there is plenty of evidence from telephone and radio intercepts that large numbers of Russian troops were entering Georgia illegaly on the evening of the 7th. The Russians claim that they were “normal peacekeeping troops” which is a blatant lie, Peacekeeping transfers had to be made in daylight, with prior notice to both the Georgians and the OSCE monitors, and could not be conducted without Georgian permission.

                  In addition they were limited to light armoured vehicles such as the wheeled BTR apc, and T-72’s and BMP IFV’s were banned.

                  Balance of evidence states that Russia and it’s proxies started the war.

                  Then there is the reporting by two more Russians, Felgenhauer and Latynina.

                  “58th Russian army

                  The answer is evident, if we know that 135th and 693rd regiments of 58th Russian army were already waiting in town of Java (in the middle of South Ossetia, – GT).

                  On 12th of August, Komsomolskaya Pravda newspaper published an article about 23-year old lieutenant Alexandre Popov, who was wounded near Tskhinvali. According to his mother, one week before the war started his son told her that they already are in the mountains from where they could oversee Tskhinvali.

                  “Rumors about immanent war started circulating during the first days of August” told Private Alexandre Plotnikov of 693rd regiment of 58th Russian army in his interview to Komsomolskaya Pravda newspaper. “Nothing was announced officially, but we understood everything when 2 companies of our regiment were sent inside South Ossetia, near Tskhinvali. Later, on 8th of August, alarm went off for the rest of us at 3 am early morning”.

                  “Permskiye Novosti” newspaper interviewed on 15th of August mother of another serviceman of the same 693rd regiment from town of Perm, Russia, who told her that they “were there from 7th of August, that is, our entire 58th army”. “Vecherny Saransk” newspaper (Saransk, Republic of Mordva, Russia) ascertains that Ukit Bikinyaev from Saransk serving in 135th regiment of 58th army was in Java, South Ossetia, on 7th of August. Some Vitaliy from Vyatka region “called on 6th of August to tell that they are on the move”. He called on 7th of August again, confirming that he was “heading toward mountains”.

                  On 13th of August “Izvestia” newspaper published an article about Evgeniy Parfyonov from Kazan, Republic of Tatarstan, Russia, who was serving in 22nd special brigade, and who was killed near Tskhinvali. “He called his parents a few days earlier to tell them they may have a problem reaching him on his mobile”.

                  Many ethnic Ossetians served in 135th regiment too. “Everyone knew that our boys, who served in 135th regiment of Russian 58th army, were staying in Java”, admit Ossetians themselves.

                  But when Georgians started shooting Tskhinvali late night 7th of August, South Ossetian president Kokoyti’s “retaliation” that was talked so much about all of the previous week, did not materialize. It was close to an “informational miracle” not to hear anything about volunteers, 87 tanks, 23 “Grad” missile complexes, about Ossetian forces who taken over Nuli heights near Georgian village just a day before. What we heard instead was a treacherous Georgian attack on unwary, peaceful Tskhinvali.

                  This is a classic Orwell. The episode where main character of “1984” novel is watching crowd going wild after chocolate daily rations are increased up to 20 grams. “Very strange”, thinks he to himself, “wasn’t it just yesterday when the daily ration was 30 grams?”

                  Obviously, the role of “retaliating guerillas” was meant to be played by 58th Russian army, whose vanguard was already in Java.”

                  http://russiangeorgianwar.blogspot.com/2009/02/julia-latynina-articles-on-august-war.html

                  By Pavel Felgenhauer, columnist for Novaya Gazeta

                  Today it is perfectly obvious to me that the Russian incursion into Georgia was planned in advance, moreover the final political decision to complete preparation and begin the war in August was, it would seem, taken already in April.

                  And the Ossetians intentionally provoked the Georgians, and any response, tough or mild, would have been used in the capacity of an excuse to attack. And if the Georgians had endured without complaining, then the Abkhazians would have begun, like now, a long prepared operation for the «mopping up» of the upper part of the Kodori Gorge. If a war has been planned, an excuse will always be found.

                  Towards August, a significant part of the ships of the Black Sea Fleet was ready for a lengthy battle outing, units of constant readiness of the Land forces, the airborne-landing forces and the marine infantry were ready to move out, while during the course of the «Caucasus-2008» training, which ended on 2 August, a week before the war, the forces of the military-air forces, the military-sea fleet and the army completed on a locale at the Georgian border the last readiness inspection. Concurrently towards the beginning of August the Railroad troops in Abkhazia completed repair of RR routes, along which this week were flipped over to Inguri tanks, heavy equipment and items of supply for an approximately 10-thousand-strong grouping, intruded without any excuse or formal reason into Western Georgia. Naturally, not for any «national-economy aims», as officially declared Moscow, the rapidly repaired railroad was used.

                  The state propaganda apparat likewise carried out preparation, working over the controlled population with constant reports about the inevitable Georgian attack and about how behind this stand the USA and the West, for whom this conflict was absolutely unneeded.
                  Naturally, one can not endlessly hold troops and the fleet at 24-hour readiness to advance. In October the weather will get bad, the snow will close the passes of the Main Caucasian Range. Therefore the second half of August was the deadline for the start of a full-scale war with Georgia.

                  In April at a summit of NATO in Bucharest, in which Putin took personal part, it became clear that the accession of Georgia and Ukraine to the alliance, although for now the decision is deferred, is unavoidable. Russian civilian and military chiefs honestly warned both the West and the authorities in Tbilisi and Kiev that attempts to «drag into NATO» (in the words of our diplomats) countries that in Moscow are considered traditional patrimonial estate would lead to a crisis. It was declared that Russia «using any means» would not allow the entry of Georgia into NATO, but this did not have an effect on Mikhail [sic] Saakashvili. Then events started to develop with growing speed.

                  Putin entrusted the government to «elaborate measures with respect to the rendering of targeted assistance» to Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which juridically abnegated the state sovereignty of Georgia. Then a Russian fighter shot down in the sky of Abkhazia a Georgian drone. Into Abkhazia under the guise of peacekeepers were introduced combat units with heavy attack weaponry, then – RR troops. There followed a series of maneuvers, incursions of Russian combat airplanes into the Georgian sky, a factual rejection of a diplomatic settlement of the conflict under contrived pretexts and at last the war, which was supposed to liberate Abkhazia and South Ossetia once and for all of a Georgian population, Tbilisi – of Saakashvili, and the Trans-Caucasus – of NATO and Americans. In principle Moscow is even prepared formally to preserve the territorial integrity of Georgia in a form of a kind of confederation and to give the Georgians the opportunity to democratically elect themselves as president anybody whom, preferably, they will approve in Moscow as well.

                  In precisely the same way did the Russian leadership prepare in ’99 the incursion into Chechnya. Then already in early spring, according to the witness of former premier Sergey Stepashin, was adopted a principled decision to start the war in August-September. All summer went on engineering and other preparation for the deployment of shock groupings. Then Putin and his team were restoring the territorial integrity of the RF, today, it seems, they have taken to getting the post-Soviet space in line.

                  In ’99 the incursion of Chechen fighters into Daghestan became the excuse for war, but its unexpected initial success led to a crisis and to the replacement of Stepashin with Putin.

                  Today the unexpectedly mighty strike by Saakashvili – the instantaneous rout of Ossetian formations – also seriously messed up the cards. Moscow could no longer pretend that this is the brave Ossetians slugging it out with the Saakashvili regime, while our side is merely attempting to keep the sides separated, establish peace and only for this is introducing troops. It became necessary to start an overt incursion, bear losses and subject oneself to western pressure, impossible for the Russian bureaucracy integrated into the world financial system.
                  The troops it became necessary to throw into combat in relatively not-large detachments. In the Roki Tunnel (6 km in length), which due to narrowness can be used alternately only for one-way traffic, on the road to Java and to Tskhinvali there arose enormous traffic jams. The outdated, dilapidated Russian equipment was constantly breaking. The evacuation of wounded and civilians, the approach of volunteers absolutely not needed in the given situation – all led to an enormous and continuing today crisis with supply, while the vanguard relatively small-numbered forces had to be thrown into combat on a just-in-time basis by units.

                  The elite units, including air-landing forces spetsnaz, pulled forward towards Tskhinvali on 8 August, for nearly two days could not dislodge the Georgians from the city, despite the massed use of artillery, tanks and combat aviation. Even commander of the 58th army general Anatoly Khrylev, who set out to the vanguard to bring order, the Georgians wounded. Georgian regula troops came out of Tskhinvali, only obeying the order of the political leadership. Deputy chief of the General staff Anatly Nogovitsyn admitted that the armed forces of Georgia are not those who 15 years ago lost the war to the separatists: «In the present moment this is a modern, well mobilized grouping, outfitted with modern weaponry».

                  http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2008/08/pavel_felgenhauer_on_russias_p.htm

                  Try actually reading Sergey

                  • Sergey Shelukhin

                    What you post is a bunch of anecdotes from anti-Russian loonies similar to yourself. Of course Georgia would claim Russian jets Bombed Georgia on August 1st and that Russian troops entered it early.
                    However independent international sources (that I posted) claim that Georgian troops were moving even before Georgians’ own alleged mythical early entry of Russian troops! Which, of course, only exists in Georgians’ imagination, not in any reports by any credible organization.

                    Moreover, even if (even if!) we admit Russian jet bombing radar or whatever (which likely didn’t happen, but hey), what did Georgians do? They shelled civilian city with cluster bombs and grads! Of course, Saakashvili still says it was Russians, but both Ossetians’ reports and HRW and OSCE observers in Georgia disagree with him.

                    Why would I read your one-sided blog posts when I have Washington Post and HRW reports?

  4. @Human Rights Watch also found that Georgia used cluster bombs, weapons that eject dozens or hundreds of bomblets and spread them over a large area.

    Why are you/they writing this? They don’t reject the allegations at all (as opposed to the Russian lies, who even said they “never” used cluster bomb – not even in Chechnya).

    @If media was consistent in its BS definition of “genocide”

    If Russia was consistent in its BS definition of “genocide”, Putin would hang himself “by the balls” for killing so many times more “Russian citiziens in the Caucasus” 10 years ago (conservative minimum figures: 25,000 dead).

    • And I meant only civilians, of course (real civilians, not like the Russian “genocide commission” for South Ossetia, who classifies volunteer militiamen as “civilians” too).

    • Sergey Shelukhin

      Do you even read what you write you incoherent baboon?

      On HRW – how relevant is your argument?
      I give you HRW, IISS, and partial OSCE reports.
      HRW found that Georgia used Grads and cluster bombs to shell civilians. Period. You have evidence to the contrary? You have credible reports about Russians using cluster bombs/etc on Georgians? If not, then keep your utterings to yourself.

      On genocide – you could also try to read; start with the definition of “consistent”. Russia doesn’t accuse anyone of genocide.
      Media accuses Israel of genocide for killing some hundreds of Palestinian civilians (some of 1000, Israel claims ~800 iirc, were combatants) with hits on civilian targets. Same media says nothing about Georgia killing 400+ civilians, reported by HRW.
      If media was consistent (did you read the definition yet?), it would have to accuse Georgia of genocide too.
      I don’t agree that either is genocide, but I’m jsut pointing you at the obvious bias of media you use. Comprehend?

      Russia didn’t say anything about Chechnya in this context and I’d like you to see Russians deny Chechen genocide. I haven’t heard anyone deny it, we just don’t talk about it.

      As for hanging by balls, you cal leave your sexual fantasies to yourself.

      • Actually you Russian retard, Russia accused Georgia of genocide on the 8th of August 2008.

        Russian vermin from the Russian government claimed 2000 Ossetian civillians killed, a total that they revised downwards to only around 160.

        HRW claims both Russia & Georgia used cluster bombs, however they also note that Georgia used them on MILITARY targets, while Russia used them INDISCRIMINATELY and mostly against CIVILLIANS.

        Russia is the hypocritical barbarian state it always has been.

        Russia killed 1 in 4 Chechens (mostly civillians) while crushing a separatist movement, but created and has been supporting separatists in Moldovia, Azerbaijahn and Georgia.

        Modern Russia is the same old soviet whore with new lipstick.

        Put lipstick on a pig, its still a pig.

        Russians are, unfortunately for the few good ones, scum.

      • @HRW found that Georgia used Grads and cluster bombs to shell civilians. Period.

        HRW (and the Dutch gvt, separately – one of their citiziens was killed) found that Russia used Grads and cluster bombs to shell civilians. Not “period” – but the shameless Russian lies they didn’t:

        The Dutch Foreign Ministry, citing the conclusions of an investigation by a ministry-appointed mission into the incident, said Storimans had been killed by a cluster munition. His colleague suffered minor injuries. “The munition was propelled by a type of rocket [Iskander missile] that is only found in Russia’s military arsenal,” the Dutch ministry said. Colonel-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of the General Staff, said in August that Russia never used cluster bombs as there was no need to do so.
        http://www.javno.com/en-world/dutch-say-russian-cluster-bomb-killed-cameraman_194396

        @On genocide – you could also try to read; start with the definition of “consistent”. Russia doesn’t accuse anyone of genocide.

        After visiting a refugee camp in North Ossetia, the Prime Minister accused Georgia of genocide and said those responsible for war crimes should be prosecuted. (…) Putin says Georgia is leading a “war against the rules”, calling Tbilisi’s actions against South Ossetia, genocide: “They are mostly women, children and the elderly. Of course, they faced a dramatic tragedy. What they told me is beyond any war rules. I believe there were elements of genocide.”
        http://russiatoday.com/Top_News/2008-08-10/Putin_accuses_Georgia_of_genocide.html

        President Dmitry Medvedev has described Georgia’s actions in the conflict zone as genocide. He has ordered Russian prosecutors to collect evidence of the crimes committed there. (…) “Georgia has exposed South Ossetia to a very crude and cynical aggression. People have died. Russian citizens have died, including local residents and peacekeepers. The actions of the Georgian side cannot be described as anything else but genocide. ”
        http://www.russiatoday.ru/Top_News/2008-08-10/Georgia_is_guilty_of_genocide_-_Medvedev.html

        Russia’s ambassador to NATO Dmitry Rogozin said that what was happening in Georgia’s breakaway region could only be seen as “ethic cleansing and genocide”.
        http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4491738.ece

        MOSCOW, August 7 (RIA Novosti) – The criminal investigation into the alleged genocide and mass murder of civilians during the August 2008 Russian-Georgian war has been extended until February 2010, an official spokesperson said on Friday.
        http://en.rian.ru/world/20090807/155752027.html

        Meanwhile the leader of one of Georgia’s separatist regions pressed his case that Georgia was the aggressor by opening what he called a genocide museum.
        http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/world/medvedev-georgias-defeat-showed-russian-might-421841.html

        @As for hanging by balls, you cal leave your sexual fantasies to yourself.

        It’s “my” sexual fantasy now?

        “I am going to hang Saakashvili by the balls,” Mr Putin declared.
        http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5147422.ece

        • Hi Robert,

          These kremlin propagandists do what they do best; they lie and lie and then lie some more!

          They try to rewrite history with lies and hope to influence useful idiots to spread their disinformation.

          I think sergy and dilldohead [or dumdumhead?] are the same, or at least graduates from the same kremlin propaganda class.

          • Btw LES, I love the Rogozin’s term of “ethic cleansing”.

            The other Russotards at Russia Today are also using it:

            “Russia admits the famine was artificially engineered by the Soviet rulers and treats the actions taken by authorities at the time as criminal. However, it denies it was an early attempt at ethic cleansing.”

            http://www.russiatoday.com/Top_News/2008-05-16/Europe_rejects_Ukraines_famine_claim.html

            You know, this was no “ethic cleansing” (and of course no genocide, because genocide is only when “Russian citizens have died, including local residents and peacekeepers”).

        • Sergey Shelukhin

          As for genocide, sorry, I was indeed wrong in phrasing it that way. What I am saying is that Russia committed genocide in Checnya but was never trying to
          deny it (well, some people would probably try to deny it but I never heard any high ranking politician do that and searching ‘Russian denies genocide in Chechnya’ didn’t yield any useful results). We simply ignore them :)

          So, yeah, Russia commits genocide (no in Georgia though! In Georgia we leave it to Ossetians), and accuses others of genocide, but you missed my point completely.
          Press doesn’t accuse Georgia of actions it committed that are even worse than what Israel did and what it accuses it of genocide for. Why would that be?

          “Stan Storimans, a cameraman with Dutch broadcaster RTL, was among eight people killed during the Russian military offensive on Aug. 12, Human Rights Watch said in August.”
          Interesting, isn’t it? HRW finds 8 killed during evil Russians’ offensive in Gori, while good Georgians’ offensive at Tskhinvali leaves several hundreds civilians dead.

          • Really Sergey, you are a moron.

            The official Russian toll of civillian dead in Tskhinvali is now only 71.

            Compared with this Israels bombardment of Gaza was far “worse” though, as with the case of Georgia’s action against a bunch of terrorists bombarding (with Russian help) Georgian villages, quite legitimate under international law.

            Given the fact that Russian media is full of lies (a reflection on the basic dishonesty of Russians and their culture of filth and corruption), I suggest you get a real education.

            Try to start by reading this article:

            http://www.rferl.org/content/Putin_TV/1808697.html

            In addition, the recognised death toll of Georgian civillians (confirmed by international monitors) stands at around 400.

            • Sergey Shelukhin

              Terrorists bombarding Georgian villages – OSCE monitors in Tskhinvali said they didn’t see outgoing artillery fire before the attack, certainly nothing that could amount to provocation (either HRW or other report I posted, I don’t remember).
              Lies, lies as usual, first Georgia claimed Russia shelled Tskhinvali, then when it was obvious that this is a blatant lie they changed their lies a little.

              71 dead – read the god damn HRW report. When you don’t like Russian stats you claim they cannot be trusted, now suddenly they can over neutral international org.

              Confirmed death toll of Georgians – neutral reliable source please?

              Random incorrect evidence – so? You can check
              http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/6vpui/staged_propoganda_photos_of_the_russiageorgia/

              for the kind of nice photo ops Georgia used to show Russian brutalities, by Reuters.

              • @Lies, lies as usual, first Georgia claimed Russia shelled Tskhinvali, then when it was obvious that this is a blatant lie

                ??? It wouldn’t be very stange for the Russian Army if they didn’t use artillery or aircraft during the fighting for the town.

                Remember they obliterated Grozny where thousands of Russians (ethnic Russians, not merely Russian citiziens such as Chechens, or Ossetians) died.

                And in August 1996 they (commanding generals Tikhomirov and Pulikovsky) even threatened to completely level Grozny using strategic Bear bombers when thousands of their own troops were trapped there or simply in captivity… In the end the heavy bombers (and volleys of strategic missiles) were not used, but their troops were fired on anyway by rocket artillery and Sukhoi attack aircraft (unguided bombs of course):

                GROZNY, October 10, 2001 – On September 24, Russian president Vladimir Putin issued an ultimatum, giving Chechen rebels 72 hours to begin disarmament talks. This ultimatum caused tremendous concern for the Chechen people. Many people were reminded of the situation in Grozny in August of 1996, when thousands of bombs and shells were dropped on the city by the Russian army without regard for the safety of innocent civilians or even for the safety of its own troops still trapped there.

                http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900sid/OCHA-64CK77?OpenDocument

                It was the same 58th Army there was the backbone of Chechnya campaigns (various divisions, brigades, regiments and battalions were only attached to it in the Defense Ministry grouping).

                Oh, and the tanks from the 58th (albeit under the direct FSB command) also fired on the North Ossetian school in Beslan in 2004.

                • Tanks were used to kill the rebels. “We had to shoot from tanks,” 58th army commander Lieutenant-General Viktor Sobolev reported.

                  Chronicle of the Battle in Beslan.
                  http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=-1663

                  But noooo, suddenly they wouldn’t turn a stone or hurt a fly while fighting in South Ossetia (as opposed to the carnage in North Ossetia). Right?

                  “As Ella Kesayeva watched television footage of tanks from Russia’s 58th Army rumbling into Georgia recently, it stirred powerful memories.

                  Almost exactly four years ago, the blunt-spoken mother of one watched as tanks from the same units fired directly into a school here in Beslan, ending a disastrous standoff with hostage-takers espousing independence for Chechnya. That siege — the worst terrorist episode in Russian history — resulted in 334 deaths, including two of Ms. Kesayeva’s nephews and her brother-in-law.”

                • Nah, Saakashvili claimed that Georgians didn’t attack Tskihinvali much or at all, and that Russians did all the bombing. Reports by whoever you might imagine reported the truth and even he had to weasel out a new lie – “provocations” (which OSCE moniutors in Tskhinvali said were not sufficient).

                  As for body count, you misinterpret the report – you are taking cluster munition casualties. However, in it’s shelling Georgia didn’t only use cluster munitions – Grad rockets and others get mentioned.

                  Again (for 4th time?) you miss the point I was trying to make, about media coverage, entirely, which I’m frankly getting tired of… In fact, forget Israel, seeign how report in general metnions more barbarism for Georgia compared to Russia (not locals), or even if the barbarism was roguhly equlal, massive coverage of Russian “agression” with no coverage of Georgian one is also striking.

                  • @As for body count, you misinterpret the report – you are taking cluster munition casualties.

                    But we were talking about cluster munition casualties. And so this report (“The Dying Practice”) was on, guess what, cluster munitions. (The full report is called “Up the Flames” – guess why this title.)

                    (You used the quote of “Human Rights Watch also found that Georgia used cluster bombs, weapons that eject dozens or hundreds of bomblets and spread them over a large area” as an argument of some kind.)

                    @However, in it’s shelling Georgia didn’t only use cluster munitions – Grad rockets and others get mentioned.

                    Russians didn’t use Grad (and so on, other newer) launchers in Georgia? They even used them against hostage-takers in 1996 in Dagestan.

                    @Nah, Saakashvili claimed that Georgians didn’t attack Tskihinvali much or at all, and that Russians did all the bombing.

                    I don’t if he said this (a direct quote with source would be nice here).

                    But I know the Russians are perfectly capable of doing THIS to a major city (not a small town like this in South Ossetia) full of “Russian citiziens” even “in Russia” – and then also calling this “liberating”:

                    • Here:

                      Up in Flames
                      Humanitarian Law Violations and Civilian Victims in the Conflict over South Ossetia
                      January 23, 2009

                      This 200-page report details indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks by both Georgian and Russian forces, and the South Ossetian forces’ campaign of deliberate and systematic destruction of certain ethnic Georgian villages in South Ossetia. It also describes Russia’s failure to ensure public order and safety in areas of Georgia that were under its effective control. The report is based on more than 460 interviews done over several months of field research.

                      http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2009/01/22/flames-0

                      (There is even a Russian version.)

              • Actually SS, the OSCE monitors did state that there were provocations (including artillery fire). Even Mr Grist.

                “”I have never said there was no provocation by the South Ossetians,” said Mr. Grist, who was OSCE deputy mission chief in Georgia. Official OSCE reporting said a unilateral cease-fire Georgia declared on Aug. 7 was broken around 10 p.m., nearly two hours before the Georgian artillery assault on Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital. “What I have said is that the response from the Georgian authorities was absolutely disproportionate,” said Mr. Grist. “To react with indiscriminate shelling — there just had to be a Russian response.”

                Western diplomats in Tbilisi say they are confused by the narrow debate over who started the fight. They say it ignores equally important evidence, including Russia’s actions during the lead-up to war. Ambassador Terhi Hakala of Finland, head of the OSCE mission to Georgia and Mr. Grist’s former boss, called what three monitors heard just from villages nearest them on Aug. 7 “a bit irrelevant.” She added, “We’re very limited in what we can monitor.” Ms. Hakala also said Mr. Grist didn’t give any warnings that were ignored.

                Georgia believes Mr. Grist is a spy. “I can’t say Grist works for Russia. I don’t know. But our secret service thinks so,” says Temuri Yakobashvili, a top Georgian official. “What was he doing going somewhere without his boss knowing?” The government has distributed tapes of someone he stayed with discussing foreigners with South Ossetia’s KGB chief, but neither the fact not the content of the conversations is conclusive.

                When the war began, Mr. Grist was in charge of the OSCE monitors and Ms. Hakala was home in Finland on vacation. Firefights in South Ossetia had been escalating for weeks. In the days before the war, Russian-backed South Ossetians were evacuating civilians and — unusually — had denied OSCE monitors access to several Ossetian villages. “It looks like all sides (including Russians) are waiting for the other side to make a fatal mistake in order to retaliate,” said an Aug. 5 report by a European Union diplomat, viewed by The Wall Street Journal.””

                http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122963718776319647.html

                I also know several of the (now thanks to Russia) former OSCE observers who served in Georgia, all (aside from Mr Grist who blames everyone) put the blame firmly on Russia and the Ossetians.

    • Sergey Shelukhin

      Oh yeah? You want me to post a video where Saakashvili claims Russia levelled Tskhinvali?

      • According to Russian journalists such as Latynina, the Russians did.

        After all, the Russians were bombing it for 3 days in order to “save” it.

        They used many more Grads, and much heavier artillery than the Georgians, and were bombing the place with Su-24’s, Su-25’s, and even a Tu-22m strategic bomber, and they were using unguided bombs too.

        “So, who destroyed the town of Tskhinvali?

        Hodge-podge-2

        In the morning of 8th of August, Russian TV channels announced that fascist Georgia treacherously invaded a small nation of South Ossetia, and its main town of Tskhinvali had been razed to the ground by “Grad” missiles.

        Russian public also learnt that Georgian fighter jets attacked a humanitarian convoy bringing aid to Tskhinvali in the night of 7th to 8th of August. Russian TV news channel Vesti also told us that Georgian SU-25 warplane bombing Tskhinvali civilians was shot down by South Ossetian defenders, and that its pilot was “torn apart” by furious local residents.

        3 pm that very day, we learnt that Russia decided to help South Ossetia, and that columns of Russian tanks are moving toward Rocky tunnel (on the Russia’s border with Georgia, – GT). In two hours, we were told that Tskhinvali is liberated. For next two days, South Ossetian press office kept repeating that although Tskhinvali is freed from Georgians, the town is still under fire from nearby hills, while Georgian snipers are killing civilians in the streets.

        While official Russian television keeps telling us about crimes committed by Georgian monsters, more and more questions are raised, because, – just like in Orwell’s “1984” novel, – what was said just a day before does not tie to what is said today, and even preceding paragraph contradicts with the next.

        Let’s examine, e.g., this story about humanitarian convoy, attacked by Georgian fighter jets during the night of 7th to 8th of August. What idiot would send humanitarian aid by the road which was likely to be crowded by refugees and vehicles? And then again, why send humanitarian aid to South Ossetia if, according to South Ossetian authorities, an entire civilian population of South Ossetia was already evacuated three days earlier? And if this was a military convoy, – not a humanitarian one, – then would that mean it left Russia before this war even started?

        Maybe there was no such convoy? Maybe, Georgians were falsely accused of bombing it? No, there were witnesses who saw it. It was spotted in Java (town half way to Tskhinvali from Russo-Georgian border, GT) early morning, at 5 am, by Russian TV “Zvezda” reporter Naziullin. He described what he saw as “the column of Russian tanks and armored vehicles just passed near us”.

        Or, let’s take that Georgian warplane bombing Tskhinvali in the morning of 8th of August. Worth noting that Russian public at that time did not know that Russian air force was already bombing Georgian villages and town of Gori. We were only told about Georgian warplane that bombed Tskhinvali. However, any intelligent person would wonder why Georgians bombed Tskhinvali after it was already taken by them? Were they bombing their own tanks?

        It would be enough to show what’s left of that Georgian warplane, any documents proving the identity of Georgian pilot. None were available. And, by the way, the pilot who was shot down over Tskhinvali in the morning of 8th of August was buried in Russian town of Buddyonovsk…

        Mismatches mounted further. Russian reporters who were in Tskhinvali that night of 7th to 8th of August made it clear that Russian troops did not liberate Tskhinvali on 8th of August.

        Even worse, – Russian troops did not make it on 9th of August either. The Russian column that attempted to break through to Tskhinvali that day of 9th of August was led by the head of entire 58th Russian army, General Khrulyov himself. We know what happened to this column very well, as it was accompanied by TV Vesti crew, as well as by the newspaper reporters of Moskovsky Komsomolets (Vladimir Sokirko) and Komsomolskaya Pravda (Alexandre Kots).

        “Shot at point blank”, describes Vladimir Sokirko an annihilation of this column, “rocket-propelled grenade hit an armored vehicle at the front of the column, and column grinded to halt under torrent of fire. I saw machine gun pointed at me, from some six meters or so, and young girl in NATO uniform who was aiming it at me. She was about 25-year old, this Georgian girl, not very tall, rather attractive, one may say pretty. Uniform suited her well. This crossed my mind in a split of a second. I shouted “I am a reporter!” She lowered her machine gun, and that very instant was killed by machine gun volley that cut her in two”.

        TV news Vesti is announcing liberation of Tskhinvali, while head of 58th Russian army is sitting among corpses of his soldiers.

        “Entire battalion is destroyed” he roars, pounding the soil with his fists, “Why?! Why?! I told them!”

        Why am I describing all this in such detail?

        Because, as we can see, Georgians controlled Tskhinvali on 8th of August, and on 9th of August. So, who was shelling this town then, full of Georgian tanks? And what happened to another column which was believed to have taken Tskhinvali a day before, on 8th of August?

        “I will hang Saakashvili by his balls”, allegedly told Putin to Nikolas Sarkozy on 11th of August, when Russian tanks were already in Gori. “Bush hanged Saddam, why can’t I?”

        I am sorry, – what for? Because Saakashvili’s troops attacked the convoy of Russian tanks and armored vehicles that mysteriously emerged in the middle of South Ossetia even before Georgians took Tskhinvali? Because our troops could not take Tskhinvali during next two days, although they entered South Ossetia before Georgians? Because they were destroying Tskhinvali during these two days and were telling us all this time that it was Georgians who did it? Because the head of 58th Russian army that was sent by Kremlin to fight for Kokoyti’s regime (South Ossetian president, GT) is sitting on the burnt soil with his fists clenched?

        Well, on second thought, – yes. This is exactly the situation when you wish to see your enemy hung by his balls. “…….

        All-out war

        First thing that catches an eye is a massive scale of this war and its geography. Russian army deployed, at very minimum, 25 thousand troops (Georgian sources insist on up to 80 thousand), and 1,200 tanks. It took extensive railroad maintenance in Abkhazia earlier in May to be able to deploy some of them in Abkhazia. Georgia was attacked from two fronts: South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Russian warplanes were also taking off from their airbases in Armenia (south from Georgia, – GT); Iskander missiles aiming oil pipeline and town of Gori were launched from Dagestan (north-east from Georgia, – GT).

        Secondly, it was a war dominated by air strikes and artillery barrages. Georgian shells and bombs inflicted substantial damage to Russian troops advancing through Trans-Caucasus highway, while Russian bombs and shells hammered Georgians in and around Tskhinvali and Gori. Russia’s victory was guaranteed simply because she had more bombs. Georgians tell us about over 200 Russian air raids, while a source within Russian military claims 413 air raids.

        Thirdly, the war was preceded by massive military build-up. Russia was building its military bases around Georgia for last several years before the war. We reinforced our base in Ochamchire, Abkhazia, and sent there paratroopers back in April of 2008. TV channel Zvezda rather imprudently showed another military base, in the middle of South Ossetia, in town of Java, on 11th of September (one month after the war, – GT), and called it a “shield against Georgian aggression”. As you will learn later in this article, on the night of 7th to 8th of August, Russian tanks and 135th and 693rd regiments of Russia’s 58th army were already in Java, South Ossetia.

        Third military base for some 10 thousand troops was built in Botlikha, Dagestan (north-east from Georgia, – GT). The road from Botlikha to Georgia (that president Putin ordered to repair) was not yet ready when this war started. The columns of tanks and armored vehicles traveled from Botlikha to Rocky tunnel (on the Georgian border with Russia, – GT) through Dagestan, Chechnya, Ingushetia and North Ossetia. On the way back, they stretched from Ingushetian town of Ekazhevo to Dagestani capital of Makhachkala, – some 200 kilometers of tanks. One of the bridges over Argun river collapsed after this column passed through it. It survived two Russo-Chechen wars, but could not withstand Russo-Georgian war.

        There is not much to say about the use of modern weaponry in this war. Russian Iskander missiles developed in 80s, still rare in Russian army, were used only twice, – aiming oil pipeline and hitting a central square in town of Gori, where humanitarian aid was being distributed (killing, among few others, Dutch reporter Stan Storimans). Praised for its precision, it missed both targets (unless Gori’s central square itself was a target, making it the first case of deliberate shooting of civil population with high-precision missiles).

        Abkhaz guerillas used radar station “Casta-2E2”, in addition to “Tochka-U” missiles that were fired at seaport of Poti, and warplanes that bombed Georgian positions in Upper Kodori valley (as we all know, guerrillas normally use missiles and warplanes).

        However, the most disturbing element of the preparations for this war was structured, methodical Russian propaganda that portrayed Georgia as America’s puppet, with its president Saakashvili as some lunatic dictator.

        In order to comprehend the depth of Georgia’s reforms, you have to see it with your own eyes. Georgia was always a synonym of corruption, laziness, organized crime and gray market. Today, it is a modern and rapidly growing economy with minimal taxation, minimal bureaucracy, with police that do not take bribes, with open and fair auctions that sell privatized real estate properties.

        Nevertheless, Georgia was still stereotyped in Russian media the same way the United Stated were stereotyped by Soviet propaganda in 70s, when Soviet public was told about lynching black population in America, and about decaying American government system that would soon collapse.

        Preparations for this war, – building Russian military bases around Georgia, Russian TV propaganda, and brainwashing Russian public, – were going on for several years. It is ludicrous to claim that it was a war to defend South Ossetians, – would be an equivalent of saying that WWII was a fight for the rights of Sudeten Germans.

        http://russiangeorgianwar.blogspot.com/2009/02/julia-latynina-articles-on-august-war.html

        • Who is Latynina? OSCE monitors and various reports say Georgians did it. You are apparently in even more deinal that Georgia itself, whose most recent lie was “provocations”

      • @Oh yeah? You want me to post a video where Saakashvili claims Russia levelled Tskhinvali?

        Sufficient to say, no one “levelled Tskhinvali”. (But the 10 Georgian villages north of the town were razed to the ground.)

        Also,

        “Numerous witnesses interviewed by Human Rights Watch, including members of South Ossetian militias, indicated that South Ossetian forces were not only present in Tskhinvali and neighboring villages, but also actively participating in the fighting, including by launching artillery attacks against Georgian forces. The witnesses also made it clear that South Ossetian forces set up defensive positions or headquarters in civilian infrastructure, thus turning them into legitimate military targets.

        These locations included some administrative buildings hit by the Georgian artillery, such as the Ossetian parliament building, as well as several schools and nursery schools. For example, witnesses told Human Rights Watch that militias had taken up positions in School No. 12 in the southern part of Tskhinvali, which was seriously damaged by the Georgian fire. Another witness said South Ossetian fighters were co-mingled with civilians in the basement of Tskhinvali School No 6, which drew Georgian tank fire. No civilian casualties resulted.[138]

        Yet another witness, a 50-year-old kindergarten teacher who showed Human Rights Watch the fragments of Grad rockets that hit her kindergarten building on Isak Kharebov Street, also said that volunteer militias had been “hiding” in the building.[139] Several members of the Ossetian militia interviewed by Human Rights Watch confirmed that many of the school and nursery school buildings were used as gathering points and defense positions by the militias.

        In some of the villages, such as Khetagurovo, Human Rights Watch was able to establish that the positions of Ossetian militias were in close proximity to the civilian homes hit by the Georgian artillery.[140] Georgian forces said they came under heavy fire from Khetagurovo.”

        (The mentioned Ossetian parliament building is now their symbol of “the genocide”.)

  5. …okay, I guess I’ll post my answer later because something wrong is with the system now.

    • Oh, it works now? OK then:

      Nice attempt at denial of denial, but no.

      Of course not “simply ignoring”, but rather the usual “sexual fantasies” (your term) of Putin. And it wasn’t even any “genocide” claim, just a question regarding the massive use of land mines:

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/13/chechnya.iantraynor

      And so on.

      @HRW finds 8 killed during evil Russians’ offensive in Gori,

      No, 8 killed from this particular tactical missile (that carried multiple cluster submunitions) which struck the media center near this Stalin monement (several foreign journalists were also injured).

      It took place after the Georgian soldiers (and most of the population) already left the city and only few hours before the first Russians entered it.

      Here you can even watch this attack:

      • On the foreign victim and the Dutch government’s findings on this attack (9K720 Iskander):

        http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Storimans

        And more from the Dutch commision via the April ’09 HRW report on the cluster bomb use in this conflict:

        http://www.hrw.org/en/node/82157/section/6

        The Dutch government investigation was an effort to clarify the circumstances that led to the death of RTL cameraman Stan Storimans on that day. The team analyzed the site, photographs and videos, physical evidence, and testimony from witnesses, government officials, and nongovernmental organization (NGO) researchers. It concluded that a Russian Iskander missile carrying submunitions landed on the main square in Gori at around 10:45 a.m., killing Storimans and killing and injuring others in the area.[73]

        The Dutch government report determined that Georgian troops had fled Gori by August 12. Storimans, his colleague Jeroen Akkermans, and Israeli journalist Zadok Yehzekli arrived at Gori’s central square around 10:30 a.m. that day. Storimans had recorded footage of the scene, including the statue of Stalin, and was heading back to his taxi when the explosion occurred. It killed Storimans, seriously injured Yehzekli, and killed or injured many other bystanders.[74] While the blast did not cause any structural damage, it shattered windows and left fragmentation marks in neighboring buildings and the taxi.[75]

        The Storimans investigation did not find any submunitions but identified from photographs in the vicinity an Iskander missile, a Russian weapon that the Dutch report said carries 20 submunitions. It determined that “the entire square and several nearby streets [an area of about 300 by 500 meters] had been hit in the same manner” with metal fragments measuring about five millimeters.[76] The report says, “It was deduced from the entry holes that the bullets [that is fragments] were from multiple explosions, both on the ground and in the air.”[77] Video footage from journalists and security cameras also showed such explosions.[78] This evidence was consistent with the workings of and damage caused by cluster munitions.

        One of heads of the Dutch investigation, Adriaan Jacobovits, told Human Rights Watch that the submunitions had identical fragments and that he believed they were only antipersonnel weapons. Investigators ruled out the alternative possibility of an airburst of a unitary weapon because video from three cameras showed one incident with 20 explosions. Each explosion left a distinct pattern with fragmentation marks radiating from the center, like the pattern left by a submunition. The explosions also created craters in the main square, on neighboring streets, and even in homes, Jacobovits said.[79]

        Human Rights Watch’s research focused on this incident from the perspective of Georgian civilians and independently reached the same conclusion as the Storimans investigation. Human Rights Watch researchers took victim and witness testimony and examined both video footage and physical damage to the area. They also found different parts of an Iskander missile at two sites within a few blocks of the strike.

        On the morning of August 12 a group of civilians had gathered to receive food from local officials at the Gori Municipality Administration building located on the city square. A nearby car accident caused further commotion and crowding, and some journalists stopped on the square to inquire about directions. Two victims estimated that there were at least 40 civilians on the square when the attack took place.[80]

        Victims of the attack said that before falling to the ground, they saw numerous small explosions within seconds. Keti Javakhishvili, 24, was walking to a neighbor’s house for bread when the attack came.[81] Dr. Merab Kiladze, head of the surgery department of the Gudushauri National Medical Center in Tbilisi, told Human Rights Watch that Javakhishvili suffered massive injuries to her liver, stomach, and intestines as well as hemorrhagic shock. Kiladze said it would require multiple procedures to repair all of the damage and months to convalesce.[82]

        Another victim, Nodar Mchedlishvili, 54, told Human Rights Watch that he went to the municipality building to get rice to feed eight people displaced from South Ossetian villages. He said, “In a couple of seconds, from everywhere I heard what sounded like massive gunfire. We fell on the ground, and some people never got up.”

        Mchedlishvili sustained shrapnel wounds to his left leg and knee. He was driven to GorMed Hospital in a car with six other victims as part of a convoy of the injured before being transferred to Tbilisi. Giorgi Malkhaziani, 59, whose right leg was shredded as a result of the attack, corroborated Mchedlishvili’s account of the events.[83]

        The main command center for the Georgian military operation in South Ossetia was located in Gori. Witnesses, however, reported no military forces on the square when it was attacked.[84] The Dutch report corroborated this testimony and stated that the Georgian military had fled Gori by August 12.[85]

        • Sergey Shelukhin

          Well, so, where’s the mention of higher body count from these attacks? 8 people.
          If you notice I never said this attack didn’t happen.
          And I explicitly said I don’t consider either “genocide”.

          And you (again) missed my point about media entirely. What does Russia have to do with different coverage of similar actions of Israel and Georgia (Israel’s being much more justifiable)?

          As of responsibility – so, before counter-invasion responsibility for Ossetian civilians was on Tbilisi, I presume? They were very good at it.
          You can take just about any military conflict (Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq) fought by “civilized” armies and see how it is exercised there. This “responsibility” claim is always used selectively against the party you don’t like when discussing conflicts, whereas in reality noone actually assumes it in practice, and that is normal in wartime.

          • @Well, so, where’s the mention of higher body count from these attacks? 8 people.

            8 people FROM THIS PARTICULAR MISSILE ONLY. A single (1) rocket fired on the city with no Georgian soldiers there. Of course there were more!

            Another example (Uragan is a system like Grad, only newer and more deadly) – from the same report on cluster munitions:

            Ruisi

            On August 12 Russian forces attacked the village of Ruisi at its northwest and southeast ends. They used Uragan rockets that scattered 9N210 submunitions across the area. The submunitions killed three civilians and wounded six others at the time of the attack.

            Suliko Goginashvili, 65, died in the northwest part of town that day. He had taken the family’s cows to graze in their fields in the morning. An assault began around 11 a.m. and lasted until about 2 p.m. “When we found him he had numerous wounds. His head was broken…. His legs and hand were sliced off,” his 57-year-old wife, Iza, said.[86] Cluster munitions also killed Natela Guraspashvili, a 75-year-old woman who accompanied Goginashvili to the fields. While Goginashvili’s family waited three days to bury him, Guraspashvili’s body was so damaged that it “could not be put back together,” and she was buried immediately.[87] Khvicha Sa’atashvili, a 45-year-old carpenter, showed Human Rights Watch researchers pieces of an Uragan rocket that he found near where Suliko Goginashvili died. He also showed them fragments of 9N210s he found in his house and yard in the middle of town.[88]

            (…)

            About 700 meters away, a group of women watched other parts of the village being destroyed. Fearing for their lives if they stayed in their homes, they fled to the local church, clearly marked by a large cross. Seventeen-year-old Tinatin Beruashvilisaid, “We felt the Russians would know it was a church and not bomb it.”[94] She and her mother, Maya, 40, and two neighbors, Tsiuri Khanishvili, 56, and Tsiala Beruashvili, 50, huddled near the church on a large pipe under a tree, and cluster munitions fell around them. Rather than finding safety, they all suffered extensive injuries, and houses near the church burned.[95] The church itself was not damaged, but gravestones in the attached cemetery had fragmentation marks from exploding submunitions.

            (…)

            The women showed Human Rights Watch researchers an Uragan rocket that had fallen in the cemetery, and a neighbor boy showed them a handful of 9N210 fragments from the same place. Damage from such fragments was visible on the gravestones of the cemetery. According to Tamara Khodanovich, 59, her husband, Arjevan Beruashvili, 72, passed the women hiding by the church on his way to his garden. Another rocket fell near him, but he was not injured. Khodanovich showed Human Rights Watch researchers the rocket, which was also an Uragan.[100]

            While in Ruisi, Human Rights Watch researchers also visited a contaminated garden next to some homes. NPA deminers were clearing the site and showed researchers seven unexploded 9N210s as well as many pieces of submunitions and rockets from the attack. The submunitions had shattered the windows and left shrapnel marks on the walls of a neighboring home. Amir Musanovic, who was leading the clearance team, estimated the 9N210s in his 200,000 square meter area of operation had a 35 percent dud rate.[101]

            Some witnesses who spoke to Human Rights Watch said that Georgian troops had moved through the town the previous day but that on the day of the attack, all Georgian troops had left the town and were deployed a few kilometers outside of it.[102] A local shopkeeper described how Georgian troops were fleeing the area with their equipment by two roads on August 11, the day before the attack.[103] Another resident, however, said that Georgian troops were in the town at the time of the attack.[104] Regardless of whether Georgian troops were present, use of cluster munitions in a populated area like Ruisi would violate existing international humanitarian law.

            (…)

            Variani

            Russian forces attacked the town of Variani with AO-2.5 RTMs on August 8 and again on August 12. Human Rights Watch found evidence of submunitions spread throughout two neighborhoods as well as in the fields on the edge of town. Incidents in the two neighborhoods killed a total of three civilians and wounded 16 more.

            (…)

            At Lia Kereselidze’s home, about 130 meters from the birzha, Human Rights Watch saw a cluster munition canister labeled “RBK-500/AO-2.5 RTM” in Cyrillic and the crater in which it had landed. Kereselidze said two others had been found in the area but had been removed.[111]

            (…)

            During its visit, Human Rights Watch found three unexploded AO-2.5 RTMs and the separation rings of two more. It heard reports of an additional 50 individual submunitions that had exploded on impact or been destroyed by deminers in Variani and the fields just outside it.[115]

            While some villagers said Georgian troops might have been in the fields surrounding Variani, they said there were none in the town at the time of the attacks.[116]

            • In short,

              “Russia used cluster munitions in or near nine towns and villages in the Gori-Tskhinvali corridor south of the South Ossetian administrative border. Russian cluster munition strikes on populated areas killed [instantly] 12 civilians and injured 46 more.”

              And now, regarding the Russian lies and the legal analisis of the attacks:

              Russian Statements about Cluster Munitions

              Russia has denied using cluster munitions since the first reports about cluster use were published by Human Rights Watch. In a daily news briefing on August 15, Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of the General Staff, said, “We did not use cluster bombs, and what’s more there was absolutely no necessity to do so.”[127] The Ministry of Defense said it did not use cluster munitions “in the area of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict,” but the ministry did not explain what is included in the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zone and whether it includes areas of Georgian territory beyond South Ossetia.[128] At the September meeting of the CCW Group of Governmental Experts, Andrei Malov, senior counselor in the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, echoed this denial. In a January 30, 2009 letter to Human Rights Watch, a Russian Foreign Ministry official wrote, “Despite Georgian aggression in South Ossetia, the Russian Federation did not employ the use of cassette [cluster] bombs or antipersonnel landmines.”[129]

              On August 16, 2008, the Russian Ministry of Defense denied that it had used the Iskander missile in South Ossetia.[130] The Dutch Foreign Ministry investigation later said Russian forces had used this weapon in Gori. Human Rights Watch researchers saw the remnants of an Iskander missile in Gori in mid-August.

              According to a member of the Dutch investigative team, Russian authorities provided no information for the report on the Gori incident, saying they had none to give.[131] Nevertheless, on October 23, the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs disputed the findings of the Dutch investigation, claiming that it had not been presented with sufficient evidence to warrant the conclusion that a Russian cluster munition had killed Storimans. In a public statement, the ministry said, “No unambiguous conclusion about the identity of the ammunition whose fragments to all appearances had killed [Storimans] can be drawn on the basis of the data provided by the Dutch. The documents and death scene photographs submitted by the Dutch side are not sufficient evidence that Stan Storimans was killed as a result of the use of weapons by the Russian side.”[132] The statement continued:

              “It is only regrettable that the arguments set forth at the Russian MFA during the October 17 meeting by the Russian side were not heard and did not find proper reflection in this document. We believe that the establishment of the true circumstances will require more careful work by military expects [sic]. Incidentally, the Georgian side has cluster warheads in service.[133]”

              Notably, while rejecting the findings of the Dutch report, Russia did not specifically repeat its denial of cluster munition use elsewhere in this statement.

              About a week later, the Russian Foreign Ministry announced it would conduct its own investigation of the Gori incident. “We are cooperating closely with the Dutch government commission and have received its leadership in Moscow. All documents are currently being studied, and it has been decided that the results of our investigation will be offered to the Netherlands,” said Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.[134]

              Legal Analysis

              Strikes on Gori’s main square and in the towns of Ruisi and Variani caused civilian casualties, and the strike on Dzlevijvari hit a farmer’s home in town. Human Rights Watch believes that cluster munition attacks in or near populated areas are indiscriminate and thus unlawful. Cluster munitions cannot distinguish between soldiers and civilians so when they are used in places where the two groups may commingle, they are inherently indiscriminate.

              The attacks were also likely disproportionate. The Georgian military was retreating at the time, and many witnesses told Human Rights Watch that Georgian forces were not in the immediate vicinity of those attacks. As a result, the military advantage of the strikes is questionable. Their civilian harm, however, is clear. Russian cluster munitions killed or injured almost 60 civilians. Given the proximity of centers of civilian population to the strike areas, this harm was foreseeable, and Russia should have anticipated it. Human Rights Watch believes there should be a presumption that attacks on populated areas are disproportionate, and the evidence in these cases supports that position.

              Russia should not only abide by these international humanitarian law provisions in the future but also live up to its obligations under CCW Protocol V, which it consented to be bound by on July 21, 2008. Under this instrument, which encompasses cluster munitions, Russia’s duties include “provid[ing] where feasible” assistance for clearance of ERW, such as submunitions.[135] As will be discussed below, Russian troops did significant surface clearance before they withdrew to the South Ossetian administrative border on October 10. Now the Russian military should provide assistance to other deminers, including by sharing information on strike locations, weapon types, and numbers of submunitions used, to facilitate and expedite clearance efforts.

              The types of cluster munitions used by Russia fall under the scope of the new Convention on Cluster Munitions, and for those states party to the convention, their future use would violate its basic prohibition on all use of cluster munitions.

          • @Well, so, where’s the mention of higher body count from these attacks?

            OK, I’ll tell you where.

            “In the strikes that Human Rights Watch confirmed, these [Georgian] cluster munitions caused fewer identified casualties than their Russian counterparts—at least four civilian deaths and eight injuries—but like all cluster munitions, they killed and injured civilians both during attacks and afterwards, and their duds continue to cause socioeconomic harm. ”

            http://www.hrw.org/en/node/82157/section/7

            So:
            -Georgians killed at least 4, injured 8.
            -Russians killed at least 12, injured 46.

            You can now answer your stupid question yourself. (And then shut the hell up and maybe just READ THE REPORT.)

            Also,

            “The Georgian Ministry of Defense has acknowledged using cluster munitions, saying its armed forces aimed at Russian targets between the Roki Tunnel and Tskhinvali in attacks from August 8 to 11.[137]”

            While the Russians continue their shameless lies and denial (as they always do).

            • Oh, and also:

              Several factors, which are discussed later in this chapter, suggest that the [Georgian] submunitions landed on these villages because of a massive failure.

              (…)

              A massive failure is one possible explanation for the many M85 duds Human Rights Watch documented south of the South Ossetian border. In villages other than Tirdznisi and Shindisi, Human Rights Watch found no evidence of M85 submunitions that exploded on impact and much evidence of M85s that had failed to function. According to witnesses, there were also no Russian troops in the areas hit at the time of the strikes. The Mk.-4 rocket has a minimum range of 12 kilometers.[167] According to Kutelia, Georgia fired its rockets from about eight to ten kilometers north of Gori (although the Georgian Ministry of Defense, in a February 2009 response to a Human Rights Watch inquiry, refused to release more detailed information about the launch sites, saying that the information “is not public”).[168] If Kutelia’s information about the launch sites is correct, the rockets that landed in the Gori District fell short of their minimum range, which would explain why there were high dud rates and why so many submunitions were unarmed.

              Georgian officials claimed that their military directed cluster munition strikes only against military targets in fairly unpopulated areas just south of the Roki Tunnel. If a massive failure of the weapons system caused the civilian casualties and contamination of a large populated area in the Gori District, however, the consequences of the failure highlight the danger of these weapons. The large number of submunitions dramatically increases the harm caused by any failure.

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