Latynina on the Coming war in Georgia

Yulia Latynina, writing in the Moscow Times:

Events in South Ossetia are unfolding according to last year’s scenario. No sooner had U.S. Vice President Joe Biden announced that the United States would not provide arms to Georgia than South Ossetian leader Eduard Kokoity accused the United States of complicity in genocide against the Ossetian people and announced that Tskhinvali had come under fire from the Georgian village of Nikozi. Considering the fact that South Ossetian forces had already wiped Nikozi off the map, his statement sounded a bit strange.

The next day, a Georgian citizen died after stepping on a mine on the Georgian side of the border with the Akhalgorsk district. (Remember that before the Russia-Georgia war last August, the Akhalgorsk region belonged to Georgia, and after the war both Georgians and Ossetians began leaving the area.) President Kokoity announced that Georgia had intentionally blown up its own citizen as part of its policy of preventing Akhalgorsk refugees from returning home.

As part of the ongoing peace talks, Kokoity demanded that Georgia return the Trusovsky Gorge on the grounds that “many of our people” are there. Using that logic, Russia could demand the return of countless regions — including parts of the United States and Australia — since “many Russians were born there.”

This is all exactly like the Gleivits radio station incident, when in 1939 Germans dressed as Polish soldiers attacked their own radio station and then announced that the Poles were responsible.

Russia has fallen hostage to Kokoity’s whims. Under his rule, South Ossetia is rapidly becoming a ghost town. The republic’s nominal population of 70,000 is really only 15,000 today, according to the South Ossetian opposition. Kokoity plans to implement all of his peacekeeping plans with the help of the Russian military. And even if the Kremlin supports Kokoity, it is by no means proof that he has the situation under control at home. When Prime Minister Vladimir Putin demanded an account of what happened to the funds the Kremlin sent to South Ossetia to rebuild the republic, he could not give a coherent answer.

The problem is that it would be impossible to repeat last year’s scenario now. Last year, nobody in the world paid any attention to the fact that before the war had started, South Ossetian forces began shelling Georgian territory while declaring their readiness to launch a “counterstrike” against Georgian cities. Today, it is highly unlikely that Russia and South Ossetia will be able to convince the world that Georgians blew up a fellow citizen who was trying to return to the “prospering” region of Akhalgorsk, and all at the same time as that cursed West is rejecting Kokoity’s peaceful request that Georgia return the Trusovsky Gorge.

What’s more, if there will, in fact, be Round 2 of the Russia-Georgia war, nobody will believe that Kokoity had started the conflict. Everyone would conclude that it had been Putin’s decision.

Against the backdrop of an economic crisis, a gas war with Ukraine and a milk war with Belarus, a new war with Georgia would mean the same thing for Putin’s regime that the war in Afghanistan meant for the Soviet Union — the beginning of the end.

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124 responses to “Latynina on the Coming war in Georgia

  1. @This is all exactly like the Gleivits radio station incident

    Глейвиц is actually Gleiwitz in the Latin alphabet.

    @when in 1939 Germans dressed as Polish soldiers attacked their own radio station and then announced that the Poles were responsible.

    And Pravda condemned the “Polish agression”.

    • …or Gliwice, depending on whose language you’re quoting. But it was indeed Gleiwitz in 1939. You can still see the original wooden radio tower there today.

      And Pravda condemned the “Polish agression”.

      Both then and, apparently, now. I guess some in the Russian defense ministry miss their old Nazi allies.

      Poor Georgia.

  2. Yulia Latynina is likely the next journalist to be murdered… :(

  3. http://www.kavkazcenter.com/russ/content/2009/08/05/67201.shtml

    URGENT! CHECHEN REBEL INTELLIGENCE SERVICE:

    ” RUSSIAN INVASION IN GEORGIA WILL START BETWEEN AUGUST 12–15!!!!!!!!!!”

    Let´s recall,that exactly the same intelligence service of the chechen rebels stated last year,that the russian invasion 2008 will take place in August.Here is the proof!

    Furthermore already last year the chechen-caucasian rebels offered Georgia a military-alliance against the russian Vampire-Empire

    http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2008/05/09/9585.shtml

  4. Moscow to launch war operations against Georgia in August
    Publication time: 5 July 2008, 09:20

    Informed source inside the intelligence service (Mukhabarat) of the Caucasus Emirate (chechen and other caucasian mujahideen) reported to Kavkaz Center news and information agency that the Caucasus intelligence has received the confirmed operative information about upcoming military operation that Russia will conduct against Georgia.

    According to Caucasus intelligence agents, Putin had made the political decision to launch war operations even before Medvedev was elected president of the Russian Federation. After the castling from the Kremlin to Moscow’s “White House” (the building of the Russian Duma/parliament) Moscow’s plans concerning Georgia did not change.

    Sources of the Caucasus Emirate intelligence services reported that intense preparation for a war has been underway on all levels for the past several months. Bringing Russian railroad troops to Abkhazia is a part of that scheme. Putin is directly in charge of the preparations for the war.

    Operative information points at the fact that the main objective of the war operation is to seize the Kodori Gorge and to optimally weaken Saakashvili’s regime or to overthrow Georgian President Saakashvili.

    If the political and military situation during the war operation to seize the Kodori Gorge is successful for Russia, then the plan implies that the war operations get spread across the entire territory of Georgia involving total destabilization of the situation all across the country and de facto disintegration of Georgia.

    The war operations are supposed to start in the period between August 5 andAugust 10, 2008. The beginning of the war will be preceded by the increase in the intensity and the number of clashes between Abkhazians and Georgians, and a series of provocations (terrorist acts) involving human casualties on the territory of Abkhazia as well as on the territory of Russia.

  5. http://www.k2kapital.com/news/fin/665836.html

    PAVEL FELGENHAUER! RUSSIAN INVASION IS UNAVOIDABLE,WILL START THE COMING DAYS! WAR BETWEEN THE USA AND RUSSIA ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE!!!

  6. Famous german war-journalist Peter Scholl-Latour on german TV!

    “An old friend in Moscow told me,that the russian army will invade Georgia in the coming week!!! Whole Caucasus could blow up,because in the russian rear a strong insurgency and unpredictable guys like Kadyrov are acting”!

  7. Latynina will follow in the foot steps of Politkovskaya, Markelov and Estemirova pretty soon. Too bad no one will feel bad for the russophobic scum who betrayed her people.

    • Betrayed her people? By pointing out the dishonesty, corruption and cruelty of her people’s government that is leading her people to ruin?
      You have a strange set of values as to what constitutes the difference between loyalty to country and betrayal.

  8. http://www.novayagazeta.ru/

    Будет ли вторая война в Грузии

    Текущую ситуацию в регионе анализирует наш обозреватель Павел Фельгенгауэр

    Tomorrow the Novaya Gazeta will publish a big report of Felgenhauer,who will tell about the russian plans of the invasion in the coming days! The headline says: “The second war in Georgia will come and is unavoidable”!

  9. http://www.daymohk.info/cgi-bin/orsi3/index.cgi?id=38521;section=3

    Meanwhile in Chechnya in July the chechen rebels killed at least 80 “Kadyrovites”,these are pro-russian chechen militiamen,national traitors!!!
    The Caucasus powder-keg burns in all directions,the eruption will burst out soon,i feel it!!

  10. The Russian will attack only in the next few days or weeks. The geography and weather will not permit a much later attack.

  11. it will happen between august 12-15! The chechen rebels never lie,their sources in Moscow are trustful!! It was the same last year! It´s a dilemma,that Obama and Saakashvili are not interested in contact and an alliance with the chechen rebels!

  12. Not one shred of evidence of anything. Its pure speculation. The delayed EU report leaked by Der Spiegel in June points the finger of blame at Georgia.

    LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:

    Liar. It does no such thing, and it was not the report that was leaked but only RECOMMENDATIONS by some members about the contents of the report. Are you really so pro-Russia that you can’t wait for the actual report? Doesn’t that make you a pretty big HYPOCRITE when calling for “evidence”?

    Ossetia shelled Georgia for MONTHS before the war broke out. Georgia had every right to respond. No sane person can argue with that. End of story.

    • @”Freddy Murphy”,

      I think your head is “leaked”. But anyway, on the subject from Latynina:

      A Global Game of ‘Broken Telephone’
      March 25, 2009
      By Yulia Latynina
      http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10753&Itemid=130

      “This is a classic example Russia’s secret service at its best. First, it tosses out a canard in the form of a minor note in a Russian publication. Then the foreign media picks it up and quotes it in translation. The translation circulates in the foreign press, becoming so distorted with each retelling that what began as a question ends up as a statement of fact.”

    • only, this has been denied completely by the publishers of the document.

  13. I want to point one minor (but somewhat clarifying) typo in the text:

    As part of the ongoing peace talks, Kokoity demanded that Georgia return the Trusovsky Gorge on the grounds that “many of our people” are there.

    should be (as in Russian original)

    As part of the ongoing peace talks, Kokoity demanded that Georgia return the Trusovsky Gorge on the grounds that “many of our people” are born there.

    which makes the following mocking Latynina’s comment

    Using that logic, Russia could demand the return of countless regions — including parts of the United States and Australia — since “many Russians were born there.”

    • Felix,

      I too tried to make sense of Latynina’s logic on this stopic but in vain, just as on most other political topics. Maybe she is a good fiction wroter but she lacks the most basic logic to be an analyst.

      As far as I know, very few Russian citizens, other than Politkovskaya and maybe Pozner, were born in USA or Australia, so her analogy is pure illogical demagoguery.

      A good analogy for the Ossetians born in Trusovsky Gorge would be to Georgians who were born in Abkhazia but were driven out in the 1990s.

      • Phobophobe,

        As everybody else, you are welcome to post anything you want on this blog – but after your moronic statement about ad hominem attack don’t expect me to respond.

  14. are you all gone crazy? The russians will invade Georgia in the coming days and you still discuss nonsense from 2008! I urge you TO WAKE UP and to prepare for war

    • And what if the Russians don’t invade in the coming days, amigo? Will you commit ritual suicide because your lying tongue has brought dishonour to yourself and your family?

      • You first.

        • Sure, if the Russians invade within the next few days, this is exactly what I’ll do.

          I’ll expect the same courtesy from you.

          Deal?

          • Futility to Andrew:

            > I’ll expect the same courtesy from you. Deal?

            Do you really expect russophobic bottom-feeders to have honour?

            • Now phobophobe, just because you are a russophilic bottom feeder does not mean we all stoop to your level.

              I profess to thinking the chance of further Russian agression against Georgia to be high, but it is certainly not guaranteed.

              Mostly it depends on the Georgian government not reacting to Russian provocations and attacks as they did last year.

              Meanwhile Russian provocations and shootings continue apace.

      • I made a similar bet at the end of May with “sascha” (the timeline was by the end of summer, so the bet is still in progress). I don’t think we discussed the payout at the same time. But I am a peaceful fellow, so my suggestion would be to have the following added to any post on this blog for, say, 6 months:

        Disclaimer: I predicted that Russians will (or will not) invade Georgia. Since my prediction proved to be wrong, please take anything I say with a grain of salt.

        Humiliating enough, and still quite civil…

  15. Ruslan Serebrennikov

    No, I will not. I will rejoice when the Russians will be completely inept and unable to do harm to anyone.

  16. Ruslan Serebrennikov

    Why wait? Why don’t you beat the rush.

  17. Your alarming comments will make the Georgian “army” run and hide long before the battle begins. Have mercy on Mishiko.

  18. you dirty russian scum,the invasion of Georgia will blow up the whole Caucasus and will lead to the collapse of russia,inshallah. ALLAH AKBAR

  19. Pictures of Trusso- or Truso-valley

  20. salman

    “you dirty russian scum,the invasion of Georgia will blow up the whole Caucasus and will lead to the collapse of russia,inshallah. ALLAH AKBAR”

    Say Hello to Akhmad. And YES, I’m bad to the bone.
    ————————————-

    La Russophobe

    Does it sound like La Russophobe comment policy? May I heat up myself a bit?

  21. > Latynina: “No sooner had U.S. Vice President Joe Biden announced that the United States would not provide arms to Georgia…”

    Did Joe Biden **really** announce that the United States would not provide arms to Georgia?

    Didn’t LR just announce that “Biden gets Russia Right”?

    What gives? Propagandists forgetting to co-ordinate their efforts?

    • U.S. Department of State: U.S. against weapons embargo on Georgia

      Today, 10:55 | Interfax-Ukraine

      Washington, August 7 (Interfax) – The U.S. is presently not supplying weapons to Georgia, but does not believe that a weapons embargo should be imposed on this country, U.S. Secretary of State on Europe and Eurasia Philip Gordon said in an interview with Interfax on Friday.

      Like any country, Georgia has a right to self-defense, said Gordon. The U.S. has more than once stressed that the differences on Abkhazia and South Ossetia cannot be resolved by military ways, he said.

      Gordon said the U.S. has long-term security relations with Georgia, which are focused on military doctrine programs, military training, the relations between the military and civilians, and also Georgia’s assistance in the deployment of troops in Afghanistan.

      Commenting on the U.S. stance on the events that occurred in South Ossetia in August 2008, Gordon said the U.S. does not agree with Russia in that the war was started by Georgia and Russia had to intervene to protect its friends in Georgia.

      http://www.kyivpost.com/world/46601

  22. With much regrets, I doubt that our new leftist President B. Obama will come to the aid of Georgia, when the Putler military invades and crushes Georgia. Later on, he and his appeasing Democrat-Socialist Disloyal Party, will regret this, but for now, they will let Putler have his way, in his ‘sphere of influence’. Afterall, America must stop ‘offending the world community’ (whoever they are!?). To make ‘friends’, we must bend.
    But if Putler makes this invasion, will he and his gangsters in the Kremlin pay a high price…….with other nations,? yes, most assuredly, just as the author of this article warns. Putler and his criminal gang, are digging their own graves, and what makes them any more sane, than that little maniac in N. Korea?
    R.D.

    • > what makes them any more sane, than that little maniac in N. Korea?

      The fact that all the stuff you wrote is your sick fantasy, that’s what.

  23. http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2009/08/04/10850.shtml

    read this Robert,then you will see,that in Chechnya a holy Jihad takes place against human scum!!!!

  24. salman // August 5, 2009 at 9:51 pm
    “It´s a dilemma,that Obama and Saakashvili are not interested in contact and an alliance with the chechen rebels!”

    Would be a biger possibility if main faction of resistance would be prodemocratic Ichkerians.
    But you want Georgia with Jewish state reintegration minister and pro-Israel USA make alliance with radical islamists, which glorify Taliban and publish anti-Israel propaganda in their websites? :) Naive. The only current Caucasus resistance leader, which I know is pro-Western to some degree, is that Kabardino-Balkaria prince, I forgot his surname.

  25. Oh calm down. Saakashvili himself has just told the American National Public Radio that he has no intention to attack Ossetia or Abkhazia again:

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111619258&ft=1&f=1001

    Friday marks the one-year anniversary of the day Russia and Georgia went to war. Georgian forces attacked the breakaway region of South Ossetia. Russia responded with force and crushed the assault, driving deep into Georgian territory. The fighting lasted for five days before a cease-fire was negotiated.

    NPR’s Melissa Block asked about the likelihood of new fighting.

    Saakashvili: “However, what I think is different this time is that both the European Union and especially the new U.S. administration have been engaged very, very strongly in trying preventative diplomacy… and so basically, the chances have diminished…”
    ———————

    In other words, he has learned the lesson that aggression doesn’t work and has no plans to “attack the breakaway region of South Ossetia” –-as NPR puts it — again.

    So, relax. There will be no new war. The status quo will remain, giving Ossetia and Abkhazia their de facto independence. Saakashvili lost, Russia won. Ossetia and Abkhazia have joined Kosovo as de facto independent territories, even though all three should not be independent according to international law. However, the Kosovo and Iraq precedents have raped the international law pointless and has made obsolete. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Back in 1999, sane Americans, including myself, warned that NATO was making a huger mistake in violating the UN laws, and now we have been proven correct.

    • So Phobophobe, what was he supposed to do last year while separatists machinegunned and shelled Georgian villages?

      I wonder what the Israeli government would have done in the same situation?

      http://www.rferl.org/content/Eyewitness_Accounts_Confirm_Shelling_Of_Georgian_Villages/1349256.html

      And

      “Since August 2, pro-Russian South Ossetian separatist forces had been shelling several ethnic Georgian villages inside South Ossetia. On August 5 a tripartite monitoring group, which included Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) observers and representatives of Russian peacekeeping forces in the region, issued a report. This document, signed by the commander of the Russian “peacekeepers” in the region General Marat Kulakhmetov, stated that there was evidence of attacks against several ethnic Georgian villages. It also claimed that South Ossetian separatists were using heavy weapons against the Georgian villages, which was prohibited by a 1992 ceasefire agreement.[9]

      On August 6 a pro-Kremlin Russian daily newspaper came out with the headline: “Don Cossacks prepare to fight in South Ossetia”.[10] And the next day, state-run (and de facto Kremlin-controlled) television channel Rossiya showed Abkhaz separatist leader Sergei Bagapsh stating at a meeting of the Abkhaz National Security Council: “I have spoken to the President of South Ossetia. It [situation] has more or less stabilized now. A battalion from the North Caucasus District has entered the area.”[11]

      According to official Russian statements, its Armed Forces merely launched “counter-attacks” to “protect Russian citizens in South Ossetia” on August 8. This, however, was challenged by reports in the Russian newspaper Permskie novosti on August 15: it interviewed soldiers from the 58th Army who served in Georgia but were allowed to leave the war zone on August 10 at the request of their parents. The newspaper quotes a young soldier saying, “we have been [in South Ossetia] since August 7. […] Today we went from Tskhinvali to Vladikavkaz[12] to pick up weapons”. The article “Life will go on” in Krasnaya zvezda (Red Star), the newspaper of the Russian Ministry of Defence, was particularly traitorous. It cited Captain Denis Sidristy (who was decorated with the Russian Defense Ministry’s order of bravery for his performance in the war against Georgia) saying that “we were training near the capital of South Ossetia. [...] On August 7 we received the order to advance on Tskhinvali. […] We arrived, cantoned, and on August 8 the place was on fire and many lost their heads.”[13] Evidently, Sidristy witnessed the Georgian shelling of Tskhinvali on the night of August 8, which could happen only from the Southern side of the Caucasian mountains i.e. already on the territory of Georgia. As a result of the increased interest in this article, the editorial staff of Krasnaya zvezda removed it from its website,[14] and it did not reappear again.[15] Sidristy later had to deny his comments in Krasnaya zvezda by claiming that his unit left for Tskhinvali “a little bit later” than originally alleged.[16]”

      http://cria-online.org/7_10.html

  26. http://www.kavkazcenter.com/russ/content/2009/08/07/67221.shtml

    The intelligence service of the caucasian mujahideen gives more details about the coming russian invasion,which will probably take place next week between august 12-15! According to the sources the russian air force plans to kill Saakashvili in an instant airstrike in the first hours of the invasion,then russians will strike a lot of military targets in Georgia,especially in Tblissi.After this first wave russian ground troops will enter georgian territory,first targets will be the “Kazbek Gorge” and then the famous “Pankisi Gorge”,where the russian invaders expect heavy resistance of the local chechen refugees,who are living there,among them many former rebels! After the seizure of these two northern georgian gorges russians will try to enter Tblissi and the rest of the country to install a pro-russian puppet government,formed of georgian criminal “businessmen”, who are actually living in Moscow

  27. By: Pavel Felgenhauer
    “This week it was reported that two Russian Akula-class attack nuclear submarines were recently deployed close to the U.S. East coast. These submarines known in Russia as Shyuka-B (project 971), are the best and most silent nuclear attack submarines. The Shyuka-B submarines carry torpedoes and long-range cruise Granat missiles with a range of up to 3,000 kilometers and a 200-kiloton warhead. According to U.S. defense experts, the Russian navy has not deployed nuclear attack submarines so close to the U.S. East coast for some 15 years.”

    And what about the U.S. West coast?
    The Ruskies could spare a couple of “long-range Granat cruise missiles with a range of up to 3,000 kilometers and a 200-kiloton warhead cruise missiles” for Hollywood movie trash factory.

    http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=35379&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=7&cHash=e44433b66e

    • @”And what about the U.S. West coast?
      The Ruskies could spare a couple of “long-range Granat cruise missiles with a range of up to 3,000 kilometers and a 200-kiloton warhead cruise missiles” for Hollywood movie trash factory.”

      And then the Yanks would spare a couple of missiles for the Moscow Kremlin garbage dump and you.

      Would you quit your typically Russian murder-suicide fantasies already? I think it’s amazing how the Russian idiots like you continue to masturbate for the visions of their own horrible deaths during their global suicide bombing. Do you think you’re scary? No, you’re just a hilarious clown like this laughingstock Zhirinovsky. Nobody takes any of you seriously. But if you’re chronically suicidal (and it’s no wonder, given the Russia’s enormous suicide rate), don’t constantly daydream about it but just kill yourself already.

      The suicide rate in Russia has almost doubled since 1990, with nearly 57,500 Russians taking their own lives every year, according to figures released by the World Health Organisation.
      The WHO’s report, by Professor Dmitry Veltischev, of the Moscow Research Institute of Psychiatry, showed the suicide rate among Russians to be 39.7 cases per 100,000 people in 2001, the equivalent of 57,500 cases among Russia’s 146 million-strong population. This is about twice the world average.
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jul/09/russia.nickpatonwalsh

  28. Journalists are supposed to inform. When a journalist predicts that the End of the World is coming tomorrow for the first time but this doesn’t happen – people laugh at him and his newspaper. The second time he does it – people shrug their shoulders. But when he keeps on predicting that “the End of the World is coming tomorrow” and this End never comes – people start treating his newspaper as a Kanatchikova Dacha hospital’s rag written by the paranoid schizophrenia patients. Pavel Felgengauer has been predicting that the new war is about to start for the last 9 months or so. E.g:

    http://www.os-inform.com/%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BB-%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%83%D1%8D%D1%80-%E2%80%93-%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C-%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85-%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B9-%D0%B8-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B3%D1%83%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%85-%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%8B%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B9-%D0%B2-%D0%93%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B8-%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0.html
    24.11.2008

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2009/05/090518_russia_georgia_prospects.shtml

    Come on, let’s face it: both he and Latynina are loons, and so is the newspaper that expects the Russian public to read their doomsday predictions day after day and never to ask: “Why the hell are your predictions always wrong?”

    How many more years will these crazies predict the new war before their credibility in the West sinks as low as it is in Russia? Why can’t they understand that the war is not going to start, because:

    1. Russia has everything it needs and is ecstatic about the status quo.

    2. Saakashvili got so burnt last summer when his invasion of Ossetia turned into a nightmare for him, that he will not try a new adventure like that for several years to come.

    So, as I said, relax about Georgia and Russian and instead read up on the truly scary things happening in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

    • You forget about Russia’s desire for “regime change”.

      “Mr. Medvedev stated on Russian television that Georgia has been “punished” and that any other hotbeds of resistance or aggressive actions will be destroyed. Furthermore, Russia’s foreign minister has called for Mr. Saakashvili to resign. In essence, Moscow seeks to transform Georgia into a satellite state.”

      http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/13/what-does-russia-want/

      Heritage Foundation expert Ariel Cohen explains that Russia has five goals in its campaign against Georgia.

      Expulsion of Georgian troops and termination of Georgian sovereignty in South Ossetia and Abkhazia;
      “Regime change” by bringing down President Mikheil Saakashvili and installing a more pro-Russian leadership in Tbilisi;
      Preventing Georgia from joining NATO and sending a strong message to Ukraine that its insistence on NATO membership may lead to war and/or its dismemberment;
      Shifting control of the Caucasus, and especially over strategic energy pipelines, by controlling Georgia; and
      Recreating a 19th-century-style sphere of influence in the former Soviet Union, by the use of force if necessary.

      http://www.myheritage.org/archive/email/2008/081908.html

    • > You forget about Russia’s desire for “regime change”.

      If Russian rulers want to see a new Georgian regime, which would be less hostile towards Russia, the last thing they would want would be to further antagonise average Georgians with an invasion. Right now, Saakashvili’s popularity is at its lowest, and he is going to be kicked out, just like were both of his predecessors: Gamsakhurdia and Shevardnadze, although the first was removed by a bloody civil war, the second – by a bloodless revolution.

      Let us return to this topic, say, in a month. And let’s make a bet:

      1. If a real war breaks out in the next month (regardless of who starts it) – I will publicly write: “I am a brainwashed idiot”

      2. But if no real war breaks out in the next month – you will publicly write: “I am a brainwashed idiot”

      Is that a deal?

      • No, as I said, I consider the possibility of nwar to be high, but by no means certain.

        Your comment that Saakashvili’s popularity is “at its lowest” once again runs counter to reality.

        Due to his sensible handling of opposition street protests, and his genuine attempts to reinvigourate the reform process in this country, and the fact that several leaders of the opposition (Burjanadze, Gachichiladze, and Gamkriledze) have been exposed as having ties to Moscow, his popularity is rapidly rising again.

        It had dropped to around 30% directly after the war but has now risen to between 50 & 75% depending on who you ask.

        “Ironically it is the Russians, who most want to get rid of Mr Saakashvili, who are now his biggest prop: since the war, his popularity rating has risen to over 75%.”

        “Saakashvili’s job approval rating rose to 65 percent in the poll, up 2 percentage points from March, before the demonstrations began. The survey of 1,200 Georgians was conducted May 1-9 by Washington-based research firm Greenberg Quinlan Rosner. It had a margin of error of 3 percentage points.”

        http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11804&Itemid=133

        So, as usual Phobophobe is wrong.

      • @1. If a real war breaks out in the next month (regardless of who starts it) – I will publicly write: “I am a brainwashed idiot”

        No, you will just change your nickname, into some other equally moronic. And we already know prefectly well you are a brainwashed idiot, so no need for you to admit this.

        @2. But if no real war breaks out in the next month – you will publicly write: “I am a brainwashed idiot”

        Yeah, he can’t wait to have his country invaded and himself and his friends and family becoming displaced or even casualties of war. Just for winning some stupid internet bet. You are just proving your idiocy once again.

  29. Russia Crosses the Line
    Whatever Mistakes Georgia’s Government Has Made Cannot Justify Russia’s Actions
    Richard Holbrooke
    Ronald D. Asmus
    Project Syndicate
    Wednesday, February 18, 2009

    by Richard C. Holbrooke and Ronald D. Asmus

    weeks and years past, each of us argued that Russia was pursuing a policy of regime change toward Georgia and its pro-Western, democratically elected president, Mikheil Saakashvili. We predicted that, absent strong and unified Western diplomatic involvement, war was coming.

    Now, tragically, a full-scale Russian invasion of Georgia has happened. The West, especially the United States, could have prevented this war. Instead, regardless of whether it actually pulls back its troops to South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Russia has crossed the Rubicon, making this a watershed moment in the West’s post-Cold War relations with Russia.

    Exactly what triggered the fighting is unclear. Each side will argue its own version. But we know, without doubt, that Georgia was responding to repeated provocative attacks by South Ossetian separatists controlled and funded by the Kremlin. This was a not a war Georgia wanted; it had believed that it was slowly gaining ground in South Ossetia through a strategy of soft power.

    Whatever mistakes Georgia’s government made cannot justify Russia’s actions. The Kremlin invaded a neighbor, an illegal act of aggression that violates the UN Charter and fundamental principles of cooperation and security in Europe.

    Beginning a well-planned war (including cyber-warfare) as the Olympics were opening also violates the ancient tradition of a truce to conflict during the Games. Russia’s willingness to create a war zone 25 miles from the Black Sea city of Sochi, where it is to host the Winter Games in 2014, hardly demonstrates its commitment to Olympic ideals. In contrast, Russia’s timing suggests that Vladimir Putin seeks to accomplish its aggressive aims ahead of the US elections, thus avoid beginning relations with the next president on an overtly confrontational note.

    Russia’s goal was not simply, as it claimed, to restore the status quo in South Ossetia. It was and remains regime change in Georgia. This is why it quickly opened a second front in the other disputed Georgian territory, Abkhazia, just south of Sochi. Its great goal is to replace Saakashvili — a man Putin despises — with a president more subject to Kremlin influence. The current promised withdrawal does not mean it has abandoned that aim.

    As Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt pointed out, the Kremlin’s rationale for invading has parallels to the darkest chapters of Europe’s history. Having issued passports to tens of thousands of Abkhazians and South Ossetians, the Kremlin claims it intervened to protect them — a tactic reminiscent of one used by Nazi Germany at the start of World War II.

    Russia wants to roll back democratic breakthroughs on its borders, to destroy any chance of further NATO or EU enlargement and to reestablish a sphere of hegemony over its neighbors. By trying to destroy a democratic, pro-Western Georgia, the Kremlin is sending a message that, in its part of the world, being close to America and the West does not pay.

    This moment could well mark the end of an era in Europe during which Realpolitik and spheres of influence were supposed to be replaced by cooperative norms and a country’s right to choose its own path. Hopes for a more liberal Russia under President Dmitry Medvedev will need to be reexamined. His justification for the invasion reads more like Brezhnev than Gorbachev. Of course, no one wants a return to Cold War-style confrontation, but Russia’s behavior poses a direct challenge to European and international order.

    What should the West do now? First, Georgia deserves the West’s solidarity and support. The West must insure that fighting does not resume, that Russia does indeed withdraw fully, and that Georgia’s territorial integrity within its current international border is preserved. There must also be a major, coordinated transatlantic effort to help Georgia rebuild and recover.

    Second, we should not pretend that Russia is a neutral peacekeeper in conflicts on its borders. Russia is part of the problem, not the solution. For too long, the Kremlin has used existing international mandates to pursue neo-imperial policies. The West must disavow these mandates and insist on truly neutral international forces, under the United Nations, to monitor a future cease-fire and to mediate.

    Third, the West needs to counter Russian pressure on its neighbors, especially Ukraine — most likely the next target in the Kremlin’s efforts to create a new sphere of hegemony. The US and the European Union must be clear that Ukraine and Georgia will not be condemned to some kind of gray zone.

    Finally, the US and the EU must make clear that this kind of aggression will affect relations and Russia’s standing in the West. While Western military intervention in Georgia is out of the question — and no one wants a 21st-century version of the Cold War — Russia’s actions cannot be ignored. There is a vast array of political, economic and other areas in which Russia’s role and standing will have to be reexamined. The Kremlin must also be put on notice that its own prestige project — the Sochi Olympics — will be affected by its behavior.

    Weak Western diplomacy and lack of transatlantic unity failed to prevent an avoidable war. Only strong transatlantic unity can stop this war and begin to repair the immense damage done. Otherwise, we can add one more issue to the growing list of the Bush administration’s foreign policy failures.

    Richard Holbrooke, US ambassador to the United Nations in the Clinton administration, writes a monthly column for The Washington Post. Ronald D. Asmus, a deputy assistant secretary of state in the Clinton administration, is executive director of the Brussels-based Transatlantic Center of the German Marshall Fund of the United States.

    http://www.viennareview.net/story/01161-russia-crosses-line

  30. http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2009/08/07/10859.shtml

    Russian officer in Chechnya told chechen rebel secret service about the plans of new invasion next week! he did so in order to stop Putin with this information leakage,because the russian soldiers all over the Caucasus have no interest to die for the Kremlin any longer!

  31. salman wrote:
    > you dirty russian scum,the invasion of Georgia will blow up the whole Caucasus and will lead to the collapse of russia,inshallah. ALLAH AKBAR

    When Islamic extremists like Salman here stop waging war on Christian Georgia, like they did in the 1990s, and start loving it, the question becomes: has Georgia become an ally of islamic exteremists?

    And the answer is: Yes, Georgia is more than happy to collaborate with Al Qaeda on terrorism against Russians. Just recall how Georgia welcomed Al Qaeda into its Pankisi Gorge and allowed them to set up factories to manufacture chemical weapons of mass destruction to poison Russians. Even the US Secretary of State Collin Powell mentioned Pankisi Gorge in his notorious United Nations speech about invading Iraq:

    http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/05/sprj.irq.powell.transcript.09/

    Transcript of Powell’s U.N. presentation

    “We also know that Zarqawi’s colleagues have been active in the Pankisi Gorge, Georgia and in Chechnya, Russia. The plotting to which they are linked is not mere chatter. Members of Zarqawi’s network say their goal was to kill Russians with toxins.”
    ————————–

    Of course, somehow Powell ended up blaming Saddam for Georgia’s anti-Russian friendship with Al Qaeda. So, USA invaded Iraq instead of the real culprit . :-) :-(

    • Try again retard.

      The Georgians did not control Pankisi until the US gave them the aid necessary to do so.

      It was not a case of the Georgian government cooperating with Al-Qaida.

      “U.S. military involvement in Georgia grew step by step. In a further irony, it began with a mission designed to placate Russia. The Russians, battling to crush the revolt in Chechnya, complained that Chechen fighters were holed up in a border area of Georgia, the Pankisi Gorge. Washington believed some had ties to Al Qaeda. Georgia’s forces were too weak to oust the Chechens, so in 2002 the Pentagon stepped in, training and equipping three Georgian infantry battalions. “We had to give them everything, even uniforms and boots,” one veteran of that effort recalls. Still, the raw units were good enough to clear the Pankisi area, removing, or so Washington hoped, an irritant in Russian-Georgian relations.”

      http://www.newsweek.com/id/157500

      And earlier:

      Chechen Refugees
      Georgia’s MRA registered 3,900 Chechen refugees living in the Pankisi Valley in 2002. Most were living with local resident “Kists” (ethnic Chechens) whose ancestors came to Georgia during the 19th century and acquired Georgian citizenship. Another 180 Chechen refugees were living in Georgia’s capital city, Tbilisi. Georgia has granted them all prima facie refugee status.

      The majority of the Chechen refugees fled between October 1999 and January 2000 through treacherous snow-covered mountain passes to the Argun Valley, regularly the target of Russian shelling, to reach the Georgian border. Because of the difficulty of providing assistance to the remote Shatili border area, UNHCR and Georgian border officials transferred the initial groups of Chechen refugees by helicopter to Zhinvali and by buses to the Pankisi Valley. About 85 percent of the refugees found shelter in the homes of friends or relatives in five Pankisi Valley villages – Duisi, Jokolo, Omalo, Khomatsani, and Birkiani.

      Since the Chechens’ arrival three years ago, Georgia has protected them, in part because the country’s small military did not control the Pankisi Valley. This caused tension between Georgia and Russia, which asserts that Chechen terrorists are based in the Valley. Georgia disputes this, but began policing the Valley in 2002.

      Shevardnadze accepted $64 million and military training from the United States to undertake counterterrorism efforts directed in part at rooting out potential Chechen terrorists. The United States stationed some 60 troops in the country to support Georgia’s counterterrorism efforts.

      Georgia arrested more than 25 Chechens on various criminal charges. In addition, Shevardnadze registered Chechen refugees and, in September, offered to allow unarmed Russian military observers to enter the valley to observe the operations. Russia sent observers to the valley, and continued to link the Russian conflict in Chechnya – and Chechens in Georgia – to the global war on terror.

      In early October, Shevardnadze said the police sweep had ended, but government officials later said that the operation would continue for “a few more months.”

      According to Human Rights Watch (HRW), some of the government’s operations directed at Chechens during the year were “arbitrary and brutal.” In late March, for example, Georgia’s Security Ministry detained Islam Saidaev and Zurab Khangoshvili – two Georgian ethnic Chechens working with refugees in the Pankisi Valley – on suspicion of association with Al Qaeda based on evidence HRW said was inadequate. “The ministry secured their pre-trial detention for three months by falsifying the date of their arrest, to avoid their compulsory release under habeas corpus deadlines. They were released in June, but the investigation continued,” HRW reported. HRW also questioned whether the authorities were responsible for the September 25 disappearance of Chechen refugee Hussein Yussupov while in Security Ministry detention. Yussupov’s fate was unknown at year’s end.

      Because of insecurity and kidnappings in the Pankisi Valley, UNHCR and the Norwegian Refugee Council (NRC) work primarily through local partners to provide food and material assistance to host families in the Valley. In addition to food aid, UNHCR and NRC staff run a pre-school program for Chechen refugee children and a community center that provides English classes, computer training, cooking, sewing, and other vocational and recreational activities to Chechens in the Valley. UNHCR temporarily suspended its activities in August, citing heightened tensions between Russia and Georgia, but had resumed them by year’s end.

      Georgia did not conduct any individual status determinations for Chechens during the year. However, UNHCR referred one Chechen case for emergency resettlement, which was accepted by Sweden. UNHCR did not assist in the return of any Chechens to the Russian Federation during the year, nor were any reported to have been deported by the government.

      https://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2009/08/05/latynina-on-the-coming-war-in-georgia/#comment-54207

      • Andrew wrote:

        > The Georgians did not control Pankisi until the US gave them the aid necessary to do so.

        Excuse me, but isn’t Pankisi in the Georgia proper? And isn’t it inhabited by Kists, relatives of the Chechens? And aren’t Chechens noble allies of Georgia in their fight against “evil Russia”? So, using Pankisi as a base for anti-Russian guerilla war, terrorism and Al Qaeda’s manufacturing weapons of mass destructions against Russians – isn’t that a noble cause mutually shared by Chechens and Georgians?

        Look, Pankisi is a tiny place with a tiny population. The expense of cleaning it up from terrorists would be many orders of magnitude lower than the expense (both in terms of human life and money) of the Civil War between Gamsakhurdia and Shevardnadze and of the various wars with Abkhazia and Ossetia.

        If Georgians wanted to clean up Pankisi – they would have done it immediately. But the anti-Russian nature of Pankisi suited the Georgian government, so they allowed Chechen terrorists and Al Qaeda to prosper there.

        • @so they allowed Chechen terrorists and Al Qaeda to prosper there.

          Except there were no “Chechen terrorists” in Pankisi (it was under Hamzat Gelayev’s control) and there was never any “Al Qaeda” anywhere in the extended Caucasus region (to this day).

          @Al Qaeda’s manufacturing weapons of mass destructions against Russians

          Why would aQ manufacture any “weapons against Russians”? They don’t have a beef.

          But if they ever had, I’d suggest poison vodka – what a perfect “weapon of mass destruction” (a normal counterfeit bad vodka kills more Russians every year than the Soviets died in Afghan War) that would not hurt any proper Muslims.

          And about Gelayev:

          http://www.cacianalyst.org/?q=node/4868/print

          “Gelayev was one of dozens of North Caucasians who travelled to the Georgian breakaway region of Abkhazia, where he fought alongside Shamil Basayev in the Chechen battalion in the 1992-93 separatist war – something he later appears to have regretted and termed a Russian GRU operation.”

          • And here, what Gelayev himself had to say to a BBC crew (and thus the entire world) 9 years ago:

            The entire documentary is very interesting. Here’s fragment on the tribals of Afghanistan (right before the great comeback of the Taliban in 2006, maybe this would you help understand why this happened):

    • @”When Islamic extremists like Salman here stop waging war on Christian Georgia, like they did in the 1990s,”

      They never did. It was a GRU-sponsored pan-Caucasian nationalist adventure. The Abkhaz of Abkhazia aren’t even majority Muslim (they’re mostly Orthodox Christian) but the “Russian-citizien independent country” of Abkhazia used to have Basayev as deputy defense minister – I guess it makes them “Islamic extremists” too?

      @”And the answer is: Yes, Georgia is more than happy to collaborate with Al Qaeda”

      Of course. This is exactly why they fought each other in Iraq, where 2,000 Georgian soldiers were strained when the Russians invaded their country.

      Meanwhile, no Russian soldiers ever fought al-Qaeda anywhere. Well, what for? Al-Qaeda is not anti-Russian.

      @”“We also know that Zarqawi’s colleagues have been active in the Pankisi Gorge, Georgia and in Chechnya, Russia. The plotting to which they are linked is not mere chatter. Members of Zarqawi’s network say their goal was to kill Russians with toxins.” ————————– Of course, somehow Powell ended up blaming Saddam for Georgia’s anti-Russian friendship with Al Qaeda. So, USA invaded Iraq instead of the real culprit . :-) :-(”

      Are you retarded, or only pretending to be retarded?

      1. Al-Zarqawi was not al-Qaeda before 2004 (he actually used to be their rival).
      2. Al-Zarqawi nor any of his associates (at this time, a small handful of Arabs and abunch of Iraqi Kurds of Ansar al-Islam) were never in Georgia.
      3. The bogus “al-Qaeda in Pankisi” threat was fabricated by the Georgians (Shevardnadze) government so the US would arm and train their soldiers in the “war on terrorism”.
      4. Powell’s powerpoint presentation is long-time completely dicredited, even he himself admitted he was completely wrong (he claimed he was misled by the others).

      It’s nicely sumed in the article Ricin Fever: Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in the Pankisi Gorge:

      http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=330

      Conclusion

      There is no evidence that Zarqawi knows anything about the manufacture or deployment of chemical and biological weapons. In the aftermath of the Jordan bombing attempt in April, Zarqawi made his only known statement on the use of chemical weapons, posted on alminbar.front.ru: “If we had such a bomb – and we ask God that we have such a bomb soon – we would not hesitate for a moment to strike Israeli towns.” [4]

      Jordan’s King Abdullah II referred to Zarqawi as a “street thug” last July, adding that the media had inflated Zarqawi’s intelligence and skills to create a larger threat. Jordanian security services claimed the attempted attack was a chemical assault using nerve gas and blister agents, capable of killing 80,000 people. No evidence was presented, and even Zarqawi refuted the use of chemical agents in the plot. [5] Zarqawi’s career has followed the path of high-school dropout, failed video retailer, prisoner and gunman. It is thus impossible to identify how or when Zarqawi became an expert in chemistry.

      The identification of a ricin-producing “Chechen network” under Zarqawi’s control developed because it was useful. In the media, every unproven allegation “from un-named intelligence sources” was treated as unquestionable evidence, each being used as proof of the last. This house of cards was saluted by Britain, Russia, the U.S. and eventually even the Georgians as it served to advance the interests of each. The British government was trying to justify an unpopular decision to join the Iraq war, and Russia was able to implicate Georgia in a Chechen-al-Qaeda network of terror, invoking “the common cause” of the anti-terror coalition in support of their methods in Chechnya. The U.S. trained Georgian troops essential for the protection of the two new oil pipelines about to cross Georgia under the cloak of counter-terrorist assistance, while using the Zarqawi chemical threat to drum up support in the United Nations. [6]

      Last month Russia claimed that Abu Atiya (together with Abu Hafs “Amjet” and Abu Rabiya) commanded 200 Chechens and 30 Turkish “mercenaries” in Pankisi, though there is no explanation of how Abu Atiya, who was arrested in Azerbaijan in September 2003, has returned to action. [7] Georgia continues to deny the presence of any Chechen or Arab militants in the Gorge, calling Russian statements “a provocation.” Meanwhile Abu Musab al-Zarqawi remains central to the disinformation campaigns that obscure our understanding of Islamist terrorism.

      Dr. McGregor is the director of Aberfoyle International Security Analysis in Toronto, Canada.

      • Proper url: http://tiny.cc/UAHOx

        And a part about what you (a complete retard) called “friendship” with al-Qaeda (who were never even been there – the old fox Shevardnadze invented this threat for his own ends, admittably with better effects than the silly Russian attempts like when they found the “plans of WTC attacks” in Chechnya days after the 9/11 atacks):

        In his pre-Iraq invasion address to the United Nations Security Council Secretary of State Colin Powell declared that “we know that Zarqawi’s colleagues have been active in the Pankisi Gorge, Georgia, and in Chechnya, Russia. The plotting to which they are linked is not mere chatter. Members of Zarqawi’s network said their goal was to kill Russians with toxins.” Powell emphasized the production of ricin as a major threat, and the importance of Zarqawi as a master poisoner. Abu Atiya (Adnan Muhammad Sadik) was named by Powell as the leader of al-Qaeda’s Pankisi operations and part of Zarqawi’s network. In July 2002, there were reports that the CIA had warned Turkish officials that Abu Atiya had sent chemical or biological materials to Turkey for use in terrorist attacks.

        Georgian raids started in February 2002, while the main security “crackdown” in Pankisi was carefully timed to follow the September 2002 departure of Gelayev’s forces for Russian territory. At the end of the security sweep in October, fifteen minor Arab militants were turned over to the U.S. The operation marked the first deployment of Georgian graduates of the Train and Equip program, a U.S. initiative to train a core professional army for Georgia. No evidence of chemical labs was discovered, though Georgia cautiously conceded that some militants in the Pankisi Gorge “may” have been chemical weapons experts.

        There seems little reason for Zarqawi to move to the Pankisi Gorge, which makes a useful base for striking into Chechnya but is remote from Middle Eastern operational environments. The languages in the region are unfamiliar to most Arabs and the militants in Pankisi under the command of Ruslan Gelayev were nearly all bound for Chechnya. Gelayev feuded constantly with Islamist commanders in the Chechen resistance, and would be unlikely to have taken orders from Arab Islamists. Indeed, the entire story conflicts with the usual account of Zarqawi being wounded in Afghanistan and receiving medical treatment in Baghdad before joining Ansar al-Islam in the north.

        And the associated story of the “Chechen network” in Spain (“Chechen” in the sense it involved no Chechens at all, but of course “Chechen” is such a scary world, just look at all the other “Chechen” sightings all over the world):

        The “Chechen Network”

        French Judge Jean-Louis Brugiere (a leading anti-terrorism official) led the attack against what came to be known as the “Chechen network” declaring that “the Chechens are experts in chemical warfare. And Chechnya is closer to Europe than Afghanistan.” The “Chechen network” was curiously devoid of Chechens: nearly all the suspects were Algerian. Despite the outcome of the European cases, the myth of the ricin-producing “Chechen network” took hold.

        Chechen Brigadier General Rizvan Chitigov is the only Chechen leader who appears to have taken an interest in chemical weapons, and is frequently accused by the FSB of planning chemical operations against Russian troops. In 2001, leading FSB officials cited “serious grounds for suspecting him to be a CIA agent.” [3] Last October, Chechen police discovered two kilograms of mercury, which they claimed Chitigov intended to use to poison a water intake facility.

        (Btw the mentioned “CIA agent” allegations, the guy was allegedly a former Marine Recon (according to him) and even had a nick name of “The American”. But of course just ask Ramzan K. and he’ll tell youall of muj are agents of the Western Imperialists and the Foreign Special Services.)

        • @But of course just ask Ramzan K. and he’ll tell youall of muj are agents of the Western Imperialists and the Foreign Special Services.

          An example of this:

          Kadyrov: Western Agents Drugging Chechen Youth to Turn Them Against Russia
          Publication: Eurasia Daily Monitor Volume: 6 Issue: 131
          July 9, 2009 11:41 AM Age: 29 days

          (…)

          Kadyrov claimed that the real number of rebels in Chechnya is ten times lower than the estimates made by the federal military authorities, meaning that only 50-70 rebels remain in the republic. He also insisted that there are only “a dozen or so” inhabitants of Chechnya among the militants. “The majority of those located on the border of the Chechen Republic and the Republic of Ingushetia are Azerbaijanis, Turks, Ukrainians, Georgians, Arabs,” he said, adding that 60-70 percent of the militants are “foreign mercenaries.”

          “We have information from a captured militant that they are given some kind of tablets, and that after taking them, a person comes to resemble a robot, and is in a daze,” Kadyrov said. “They get these tablets from abroad and give them to young people. These are excellently trained workers of Western special services, who are working against the Russian Federation. They are using us, knowing our mentality, knowing that a majority of us are Muslims. They have good supplies and specialists. All of the foreign special services workers are operating against Russia. And the people of Russia accuse us. They think that a war is still going on here, that Chechens are bandits and terrorists. But Chechens are dying while protecting Russia’s [territorial] integrity. Hundreds of thousands died here, thousands of people disappeared without a trace, thousands of police died in battle” (www.izvestia.ru, July 7).

  32. http://www.boycottsochi.eu/

    pictures with the genocide in chechnya

  33. Richard Holbrooke:
    > The Kremlin invaded a neighbor, an illegal act of aggression that violates the UN Charter.

    Why is it against the UN Charter for Russia to “invade” Georgia but it is highly legal and commendable for USA to invade Iraq, Panama, Yugoslavia, Grenada etc?

    Why such sudden respect for the UN Charter, which has been violently and repeatedly raped by USA so many times in recent years? In fact, wasn’t Holbrooke himself a key figure in the aggression on Yugoslavia?

    The double standard and the hypocrisy here are staggering, as is his gall and his treating his readers as lobotomized zombies, who don’t remember how USA keeps on invading other countries all over the Globe in clear violations of the UN Charter.

    • Now Phobophobe, we all know that your grasp on reality in general and history in particular is pretty loose.

      You have forgotten the fact that Serbia was comitting ethnic cleansing in Croatia, Bosnia, and finally (the straw that broke the camels back) in Kosovo haven’t you?

      Then there is the fact that Saddam was a ruthless dictator who gassed his own citizens, massacred the Shia, destroyed the marsh arabs by drying out the unique wetlands they lived in, the usual sort of thing.

      Go and learn something about your heroes in Serbia and Iraq.

      It’s about time you learned to read properly.

      • @destroyed the marsh arabs by drying out the unique wetlands they lived in

        Oh, and yeah. The invasion rescued what remained of the biblical Eden, at the very last moment like the cavalry in old western movies.

        In 2001:

        New pictures from space confirm that one of the world’s most remarkable cultures – the 5,000-year old civilisation of the Marsh Arabs of southern Iraq, based on reeds – could soon vanish.

        http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/may/19/iraq.timradford

        In 2003:

        Last Sunday, at the end of the third World Water Forum in Kyoto, the UN released a report showing that since 2001, the remaining marshlands have declined by an additional one-third, heightening the sense of urgency. UNEP estimates that the remaining marshes could vanish in the next three to five years.

        http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0327/p14s01-sten.html

        But then it was finally stopped in the last moment by “the agression”.

        And so, by 2008:

        The United Nations has today launched a plan to list the recovering ancient Iraqi wetlands, thought by some to be the Biblical Garden of Eden, as a World Heritage Site.

        The marshlands in south-east Iraq had been almost completely drained in the 1990s during Saddam Hussein’s rule, nearly destroying the home of many rare species and the Marsh Arabs, who lived in reed houses on artificial islands in the marshes.

        “It had become an ecological but also a human tragedy”, said Iraqi Environment Minister Nermeen Othman in a statement issued by the Nairobi-based United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP).

        (…)

        After Saddam’s downfall, locals wrecked many of the dams to let the water rush back in and a $14 million UNEP restoration project prompted the return of thousands of birds and fish. The Iraqi government says more than half the original wetlands have now been restored and UNEP Executive Director Achim Steiner says valuable lessons have been learned.

        “They provide a blueprint for the restoration of the many other damaged, degraded and economically-important wetland ecosystems across the world,” he said in the statement.

        http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14673-un-aims-to-protect-iraqi-wetlands.html

  34. But Phobophobe, you are a lobotomised zombie.

    • I knew that you would have no logical rebuttal to my condemnation of Hallbrooke, Andrew, other than a silly ad hominem name-calling.

      • Oh I don’t know Phobophobe, you do a lot of name calling here.

        Besides, the description fits you pretty well after your idiotic “al Qaida in Georgia” post.

        • Hi Andrew,

          @Besides, the description fits you pretty well after your idiotic “al Qaida in Georgia” post.

          I beg to differ. photophobe’s post was not idiotic; it was intentional malicious disinformation, by a paid kremlin propagandist.

          “A lie told often enough becomes truth”
          Vladimir Lenin quote

          “A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes”
          Mark Twain quotes (American Humorist, Writer and Lecturer. 1835-1910)

          “Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.”
          Mahatma Gandhi quotes (Indian Philosopher, internationally esteemed for his doctrine of nonviolent protest, 1869-1948)

          “Political language. . . is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.”
          George Orwell quotes (English Novelist and Essayist, 1903-1950)

          • > “A lie told often enough becomes truth”, Vladimir Lenin quote

            That’s not a Lenin quote. That’s a lie, repeated very often by the Western propaganda. There is no evidence that Lenin said any such thing. I challenge you to provide the source where Lenin wrote anything of this sort.

            The same quote is also attributed (and also without a citation) to the father of the Western media — Dr. Joseph Goebbels:

            http://thinkexist.com/quotation/-if_you_tell_a_lie_big_enough_and_keep_repeating/345877.html.

            “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.”

            This idea was used very successfully by the Western media on numerous occasions, e.g., to use the Racak fabrication as a PR pretext to start NATO’s aggression against Yugoslavia in 1999. As you may recall, after a heavy battle between KLA and the Yugoslav army in the village of Racak, KLA – upon instructions from the notorious CIA iran-contra operative Bill Walker – gathered 45 or so casualties of this battle in the forest and let Bill Walker declare that they had been executed at blank range by Yugoslav army.

            This same idea is being used right now to trump up russophobic hysteria by various “experts”, including Latynina and Felgenhauer, who predicted last Russia was going to attack Georgia, also last week. Well, it didn’t happen and will not happen. Just mark my words. But the mission of whipping up russophobia in the West is accomplished. So, if you repeat the lie: “Russia is going to start the war this week” for many weeks in a row, you will make Russia look like it is a warmonger. A lie repeated many times to brainwashed western zombies becomes a perceived “reality”.

            • Where is your evidence that it is not a Lenin quote?

              It certainly matches much of the drivel he spewed out.

              Such as: “We need the real, nation-wide terror which reinvigorates the country and through which the Great French Revolution achieved glory.”

              or

              “It is true that liberty is precious – so precious that it must be rationed. ”

              “The press should be not only a collective propagandist and a collective agitator, but also a collective organizer of the masses.”

              “There are no morals in politics; there is only expedience. A scoundrel may be of use to us just because he is a scoundrel. ”

              Nice guy. Of course given your stupidity you probably worship Lenin and his mass murder.

              http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/v/vladimir_ilyich_lenin.html

              http://thinkexist.com/quotation/a_lie_told_often_enough_becomes/195640.html

              • As an “add to” to your above quote Andrew Lenin was also a mass murderer!

                He was one of the two signatories to the death sentence imposed on the Romanov’s royal family, i.e. Tsar, his wife and children and the loyal servants looking after them, not to over look the countless White Russian officers that were slaughtered after they surrendered, and any villages that did not support his “red terror.”

            • @This idea was used very successfully by the Western media on numerous occasions, e.g., to use the Racak fabrication as a PR pretext to start NATO’s aggression against Yugoslavia in 1999. As you may recall, after a heavy battle between KLA and the Yugoslav army in the village of Racak, KLA – upon instructions from the notorious CIA iran-contra operative Bill Walker – gathered 45 or so casualties of this battle in the forest and let Bill Walker declare that they had been executed at blank range by Yugoslav army.

              Oh. Really?

              A court in Pristina convicted a Kosovo Serb in the killing of 45 ethnic Albanians in Racak in 1999. Police Officer Zoran Stojanovic, 32, was sentenced to the minimum sentence, 15 years, by three judges, two United Nations magistrates and one ethnic Albanian.

              http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/19/world/world-briefing-europe-kosovo-serb-guilty-in-deaths-of-45.html

              I guess you think/pretend the United Nations (as part of the vast conspiracy that also includes NATO and “Western media”) sentenced him for killing them in “battle in the forest”.

      • Andrew:
        > your idiotic “al Qaida in Georgia” post.

        I don’t think that US Secretary of State Colin Powell is idiotic:

        http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/05/sprj.irq.powell.transcript.09/

        Transcript of Powell’s U.N. presentation

        “We also know that Zarqawi’s colleagues have been active in the Pankisi Gorge, Georgia and in Chechnya, Russia. The plotting to which they are linked is not mere chatter. Members of Zarqawi’s network say their goal was to kill Russians with toxins.”

        • @”I don’t think that US Secretary of State Colin Powell is idiotic:”

          He was only stupid (but at least he admitted his mistake later and said he regrets it).

          But you are idiotic (or just a troll).

          • Colin Powell said that he regretted condemning Al Qaeda’s poisoning of Russian civilians with ricin?! You must be crazy. Unlike your Georgia, America is at war with Al Qaeda.

            Powell said that he regretted about lying that it was Saddam’s fault. And of course he is right: Saddam had nothing to do with Al Qaeda or Chechen terrorists. But, as your friend Luis can attest, Georgia does have everything to do with that. Next time you and Luis have a beer, let him fill you in.

            • @Colin Powell said that he regretted condemning Al Qaeda’s poisoning of Russian civilians with ricin?! You must be crazy.

              Powell said he regretted saying this, because his UN statement was entirely untrue.

              Al-Qaeda never “poisoned Russian civilians with ricin”. And actually never poisoned anyone with ricin, or ever produced ricin.

              They killed only a few Iraqis with a series of very crude chemical bombs based on chlorine (actually more died from exlosived used to detonate them). They would be better off if they were using only conventional bombs instead.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_bombings_in_Iraq

              The only “Russian civilians” who died in chemical attack related to Chechnya were those killed by federal forces. And it was no ricin neither:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

            • @Unlike your Georgia, America is at war with Al Qaeda.

              Unlike your Russia, Georgia is at war with al-Qaeda.

              It was one of the leading contributors to the US-led coalition. At the time of the Russian invasion, Georgia had 2,000 soldiers in Iraq.

              http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jsG34CupjldAADG5IyIjZKHfoxZQ

              As a staunch ally of the United States the Georgians arrived in August 2003, about five months after the American-led invasion toppled Iraqi dictator Saddam Huessein.

              The majority of Georgian soldiers were deployed near Kut, 175 kilometres (109 miles) south of Baghdad in the province of Wasit, a hotbed of smuggling near the Iranian border.

              They have provided training to Iraq’s fledgling military, and manned border checkpoints.

              The Georgian brigade has also faced powerful Shiite militias in the south and al-Qaeda forces in the Diyala region, northeast of Baghdad, regarded as the most dangerous area in Iraq.

              Five of their soldiers have been killed, three of them this year in combat related incidents.

            • Really Phobo, has it escaped your notice that Georgia cleared the Pankisi gorge of such militants in 2002-2003.

              Prior to this their military was in no condition to do so, that was what the US “Train & Equip” program was for.

              Georgia has been and is a loyal ally to the US in its struggle against terrorism, unlike Russia that continues to sell weapons to all and sundry, including advanced SAM’s to terrorist sponsoring states such as Iran & Syria, and also large transfers of weapons to Hizbollah and Hamas.

              Georgian troops served with distinction in Iraq until they were withdrawn in 2008 during the Russian invasion to bolster the defences of Tbilisi.

              For the US troops view of Georgians

              ““I know personally many of the U.S. Task Force members feel this was the most rewarding thing they have done since they joined the U.S. military,” said Lt. Col. William M. McGowan, commanding officer of the GSSOP U.S. Task Force. “They believe that helping Georgia, a country that not long ago was a stranger to the United States, is the right thing to do.”

              The GSSOP mission is to assist and enhance Georgia’s military capability to sustain its contribution to the effort in Iraq.

              “Georgia is also helping the U.S. in many, many ways with the Global War on Terrorism. Both the United Sates and Georgia view one another as true friends today and for the future,” McGowan stated.

              The Georgian soldiers will sustain and support operations under UN Security Council Resolution 1546 to protect UN forces in Iraq in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom.”

              http://www.marines.mil/units/marforeur/Pages/Marine-led%20task%20force%20trains%20Republic%20of%20Georgia%20soldiers.aspx

              “”Georgia has stood beside the United States throughout the Global War on Terrorism efforts, and the GSSOP mission represents our continuing partnership and collaborative effort toward a brighter future,” Chattman said.”

              http://www.eucom.mil/English/FullStory.asp?art=%7BF3B6F7C7-D6B1-4A12-9F49-A9793D51ABBD%7D

              In addition, despite the damage caused by the Russian invasion, Georgia is sending troops to Afghanistan in response to a request by the US.

              http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=21341

              http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12366&Itemid=129

  35. http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/500835/index.do?direct=500919&_vl_backlink=/home/politik/index.do&selChannel=103

    URGENT! FELGENHAUER IN THE GERMAN PRESS: “WAR WILL START IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS! FIRST RUSSIAM TARGET WILL BE THE MILITARY AIRPORT NEAR TBLISSI!!!!”

    You can translate the text from german into english with “www.babelfish.altavista.com”

  36. relax ppl :) both Russian fascists and opponents of Russian fascism :) I highly doubt there will be another war. Not because Russia “won” on contrary they have lost and its ramifications are yet to be seen in near future. But because there are series of different circumstances: US is more involved, its military satellites are zoomed on Georgia 24/7, Biden is more pushy and yes i do believe Obama administration will be far more responsive to aggression than previous administration (im tired of rightist-conservative paranoia with Obama and his alleged socialism, pathetic, too pathetic even to comment on that….).

    I want to remind our Chechen-North Caucasian friends here: Georgians, despite Chechen involvement on the Russian side in Abkhazia during the war of 92-93, have supported Chechen resistance since Gamsakhurdia all the way to Saakashvili. Therefore, its not because they are not ready to fully support, but because Chechen resistance itself is too fragmented into different camps, Zakaevci, Udogovci, Idigovci, etc. Hence, Georgians always possessed emotional attachment to Chechen resistance at any given time, they are your natural allies.

    I do sincerely hope that there will be no war, but if Russia does commit such suicidal and fateful mistake, i think Ruslan and Andrew will both be witnessing the downfall of mother Russia and hence their dream which might seem distant today, will suddenly come true.

    God Bless Georgia and every freedom-loving Caucasian

    • Luis, next time you are in Georgia, we should have a few beers at the Hangar Bar.

    • Luis Dingley wrote:
      > Georgians, despite Chechen involvement on the Russian side in Abkhazia during the war of 92-93, have supported Chechen resistance since Gamsakhurdia all the way to Saakashvili.

      Absolutely. While crying out to the international community that all territorial rights of all countries must be respected, Georgian leaders always wanted to violate the territorial rights of the Russian Federation with respect to the break-away republic of Chechnya. That’s why it’s so laughable when these same Georgian leaders complain about their own breakaway republics of Abkhazia and S. Ossetia. By allowing Chechen terrorists to establish bases in the Pankisi Gorge in Georgia, the Georgian authorities gave green light to Al Qaeda and its manufacture of chemical weapons to kill Russian and North Ossetian civilians. Even the US State Department though that this went way too far:

      http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/05/sprj.irq.powell.transcript.09/

      Transcript of Secretary of State Powell’s U.N. presentation

      “We also know that Zarqawi’s colleagues have been active in the Pankisi Gorge, Georgia and in Chechnya, Russia. The plotting to which they are linked is not mere chatter. Members of Zarqawi’s network say their goal was to kill Russians with toxins.”

  37. Luis Dingley

    “I do sincerely hope that there will be no war, but if Russia does commit such suicidal and fateful mistake, i think Ruslan and Andrew will both be witnessing the downfall of mother Russia and hence their dream which might seem distant today, will suddenly come true.”

    That is but a wishful thinking.

  38. The war will come this month,you will see it! You are not realistic,my sources are simply better! Your dream of “no new war” is wishful thinking,because you don´t know the wild russian animals ruling in the Kremlin! You will be shocked in some days and wake up

  39. Andrew:
    > You have forgotten the fact that Serbia was comitting ethnic cleansing in Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo haven’t you?

    Bzzz. Wrong. Leaving aside Bosnia, where indeed lots of horror was committed by all 3 sides – Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats, what was happening in Kosovo prior to the NATO aggression was a typical civil war where the government side was behaving quite reasonably given the terrorist KLA organization it was fighting. In the end, it was KLA that ended up committing most of the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, causing the mass escape of 70% of not only Serbs but **all** non-purebred-Albanians from Kosovo. And, amazingly, the biggest victims of KLA were not even Christians but fellow Muslims: Gypsies, as well as Turks.

    And Croatia? Yes, there was indeed the biggest and worst ethnic cleansing committed there. But the Serbs were not the perpetrators. They were the victims:

    http://rpc.senate.gov/releases/1999/fr033199.htm

    United States Senate
    United States Senate Republican Policy Committee, March 31 1999

    The Kosovo Liberation Army: Does Clinton Policy Support Group with Terror, Drug Ties?

    Eradication of the Serbs in Krajina:

    The Clinton Administration has stalled efforts to investigate what has been called the “biggest ethnic cleansing” of the Balkan wars, one which the Clinton Administration may itself have helped to facilitate… Within four days, the Croatians drove out 150,000 Serbs, the largest cleansing of the entire Balkan wars. Investigators in the Hague have concluded that this campaign was carried out with brutality, wanton murder, and indiscriminate shelling of civilians. Krajina is Kosovo writ large. The Clinton Administration tacitly encouraged it.
    ——————————————–

    • @Leaving aside Bosnia, where indeed lots of horror was committed by all 3 sides – Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats,

      And most and worst by the Serb minority (and the “tourists” from Serbia).

      @In the end, it was KLA that ended up committing most of the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, causing the mass escape of 70% of not only Serbs but **all** non-purebred-Albanians from Kosovo.

      After the Serbs caused the mass escape of most of the “purebred-Albanians” (Kosovo’s majority).

      @Eradication of the Serbs in Krajina:

      Several years after the eradication of Croats in (so-called “Srpska”) Krajina (Slavonia). See what happened for example in Vukovar (and to the wounded soldiers and civilians from Vukovar hospital).

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2988304.stm

      @Within four days, the Croatians drove out 150,000 Serbs, the largest cleansing of the entire Balkan wars.

      They actually fled on their own, together with their soldiers, after Milosevic ordered them to not really fight and just get the hell out (but not before firing rockets on civilians in Zagreb in the last gesture). That’s why the Croat operation took just 2 days, there was no serious opposition (compare this with the original fighting that created the “Serbian Krajina”).

      Btw, the Serbs from Sarajevo were forced by Karadzic to leave when the VRS rebels were vacating the occupied parts of the city after the final ceasefire. Their homes (and the others’) were burned by the withdrawing VRS – even if they wanted to stay in their homes.

      @Investigators in the Hague have concluded that this campaign was carried out with brutality, wanton murder, and indiscriminate shelling of civilians.

      And now check out what they concluded about the initial Serb campaign in Croatia 1991-1992.

      • Robert, I am not going to respond to every piece of your propaganda. I will let the official position of the US Republican Party back in the spring of 1999 speak for itself:

        http://rpc.senate.gov/releases/1999/fr033199.htm

        You may also want to check up on the position of the US Libertarian Party at CATO Institute’s site.

        Arguing with you is a surreal experience. Last time we argued, you proudly announced that Turkey was “unfairly” badmouthed for its extermination of 1.5 million chrisitan Armenians, because, according to you, Turks were not discriminating on the basis of religion, as they also massacred muslim Kurds and Arabs. You also called Ottoman Sultans “victims of oppression” and gloated over the massacre of Christian babies who were stolen from their mothers and turned into muslim killing zombies.

        However, a few most grotesque points have to be made:

        > After the Serbs caused the mass escape of most of the “purebred-Albanians” (Kosovo’s majority).

        Bull. Prior to NATO’s aggression and carpet-bombing, there was no “mass escape” of Albanians from Kosovo. On the contrary, tens of thousands of Albanians per year were emigrating into Kosovo for many-many decades, because the life for Albanians in socialist Serbia was infinitely better than in stalinist Albania.

        And tell me please, even if we assume that Serbs had done terrible things to Albanians in Kosovo, why did the Albanians persecute fellow muslim Gypsies (aka Roma, Romani) and Turks, not to mention Jews? What had they done wrong? According to Albanians the fault of Gypsies, Jews and Turks was that they sided up with Serbs. Which bring to the inevitable question: what kind of monsters must KLA and their NATO sponsors be, if even Muslims like Gypsies and Turks, had to side with Serbs?

        > [150 000 Croatian Serb civilians] … actually fled on their own

        Civilians always flee away from war and death. How else, except by fleeing, can people be driven out and become refugees? What is the alternative? To stay and be gunned down by Croat genocidists, who engaged in “brutality, wanton murder, and indiscriminate shelling of civilians”, according to the Hague Tribunal? Didn’t Palestinian refugees flee the Arab-Israeli war in 1947? And what about the hundreds of thousands of Albanian and Serb refugees who fled from Kosovo after the start of the NATO aggression? You call them “refugees”, don’t you? How about Bosnian refugees, who fled Serb attacks? Can you name refugee groups in history who didn’t flee? If they didn’t flee, how can they be refugees? Refugees, who didn’t flee Croatia, are called “corpses”. But, of course, to you only Muslims have a right to flee war. Others have to stay and die.

        • @Bull. Prior to NATO’s aggression and carpet-bombing, there was no “mass escape” of Albanians from Kosovo.

          Maybe you should ask them, who were they escaping and who was forcing them to flee.

          @you proudly announced that Turkey was “unfairly” badmouthed for its extermination of 1.5 million chrisitan Armenians

          “Proudly”?

          There was no “extermination of 1.5 million chrisitan [sic] Armenians” in 1915. There were some horrible massacres by both sides (but only one’s are advertised internationally, thanks to lobbying by very well-organized Armenian disapora). And there was terrible war-related (causes including the unrelenting Allied embargo) famine (and many Armenian refugees died from hunger even in Russia-controlled territory).

          @because, according to you, Turks were not discriminating on the basis of religion, as they also massacred muslim Kurds and Arabs.

          And also many/most Armenians were massacred by Kurds (who according to Turks are only “mountain Turks”, but that’s why some of them are now fighting for their independence).

          @To stay and be gunned down by Croat genocidists, who engaged in “brutality, wanton murder, and indiscriminate shelling of civilians”, according to the Hague Tribunal?

          The same Hague Tribunal who sentenced the leaders (“chief genocidists”if you like) of “Srpska Krajina” for their actions during the initial ethnic cleansing? And even for their actions at the time of 1995 Croat offensive?

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreb_rocket_attacks#The_Hague

          @You also called Ottoman Sultans “victims of oppression” and gloated over the massacre of Christian babies who were stolen from their mothers and turned into muslim killing zombies.

          Mr. Idiot: for generations before they got finally rid off (while trying to murder an another sultan to disrupt the reforms and modernisation for their own continued profit), the country-destablising parasite paramilitary group of “muslim killing zombies” were being recruited from Muslim families (and not the poor ones).

          @Didn’t Palestinian refugees flee the Arab-Israeli war in 1947?

          Wow, it was pretty random. Whatever it has to do with anything? Btw, the Jews were also forced to flee from the Arab countries (for example, Baghdad used to be about 1/3 Jewish).

          @And what about the hundreds of thousands of Albanian and Serb refugees who fled from Kosovo after the start of the NATO aggression?

          There was no “NATO aggression”. Now maybe go back to your emperors-clothes.com.

          @Can you name refugee groups in history who didn’t flee? If they didn’t flee, how can they be refugees? Refugees, who didn’t flee Croatia, are called “corpses”. But, of course, to you only Muslims have a right to flee war. Others have to stay and die.

          You mean, there are no living Serbs in Croatia in your parrarel universe?

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Croatia#Ethnic_groups_according_to_the_2001_census

          Even in Slavonia there are now over 78,000 Serbs. Now try and guess the ethnic Croat population of Vukovar under the Serb occupation (even now, the Croat population there is much smaller than before the war, as their homes were completely destroyed during the JNA conquest and many had just no reason to come back there after the end of the war).

          • > Even in Slavonia there are now over 78,000 Serbs.

            Well, you can’t kill or expel everybody. Even the Nazi Germans couldn’t kill all Jews. And the notorious Nazi/Ustashe Croatia, while killing almost all Jews in WW2, couldn’t kill off all the Serbs, Gypsies/Roma and Bosniaks.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustaše

            The Ustaše enacted race laws patterned after those of the Third Reich, which were aimed against Jews, Roma and Serbs, who were collectively declared enemies of the Croatian people. Serbs, Jews, Roma were interned in concentration camps. The number of murdered Jews is fairly reliable: around 32,000 Jews were killed during World War II. Gypsies numbered around 40,000 fewer after the war. Of the number of Serbs who died, estimates tend to vary between 300,000 and 700,000
            ———————-

            But modern Croatia has again succeeded in ethnically cleansing even more non-Croats out of Croatia. Just look at the CIA World Factbook.

            http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/wofact92/wf930066.txt
            https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/hr.html

            In 1992 Croatian population was:

            Croat 78%, Serb 12%, Muslims 0.9%, Hungarian 0.5%, Slovenian 0.5%, others 7.8%

            The latest CIA figures are:

            Croat 89.6%, Serb 4.5%, other 5.9% (including Bosniak, Hungarian, Slovene, Czech, and Roma)

            As you can see, the percentage of Serbs went down by a factor of three: from 12% down to 4.5%. Some other non-Croats also had to flee, but not nearly as much. Their number went down from 8.8% to 5.9%. The refugees in this group are probably Bosniaks and Roma, who along with Serbs, Turks and Jews are the usual targets of hate for both Croats and Albanians.

            • Phobophobe V1:
              “Refugees, who didn’t flee Croatia, are called “corpses”.”

              Phobophobe V2:
              “Well, you can’t kill or expel everybody.”

              What do you think to happened (at around the same time) to the Muslims of the Srebrenica region? (Region, because most people in the besieged town were actually already refugees, and they were the lucky ones because they were still alive.)

              @The refugees in this group are probably Bosniaks and Roma, who along with Serbs, Turks and Jews are the usual targets of hate for both Croats and Albanians.

              Croatia actually received a large number of Bosniak refugees in 1992. The anti-Muslim atrocities in 1993 (like Ahmici massacre) were commited by the Bosnian Croats in Bosnia.

              Modern Croatia has some excellent relations with Israel.

              Croats (from western Croatia) had even rather little contact with the Turks at all, historically more in the Austro-Hungarian sphere of influence.

              Turks are actually the target for hate for the Serbs. Even the racial slur for Bosniaks is “Turks” – and just see what general Mladic was talking about when he entered Srebrenica (this from the pro-Mladic YouTube account “SerbGuerilla”):

  40. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom

    Pogrom

    In 1999, after NATO troops took control of the Serbian province of Kosovo, the non-Albanian population, including all Jews, Christians and Muslims of non-Albanian ethnicity, of the capital Pristina was driven from their homes by ethnic Albanians and their property sacked and demolished, while NATO forces stood back and refused to intervene.[62][63]

    http://www.scn.org/roma/update_friends_letter.htm

    Seattle Community Network

    Spring, 2000 Romani Refugee Update

    Since the arrival of KFOR forces and the return of ethnic Albanians
    to Kosovo, more than 14,000Roma (Gypsy) homes have been burnt.
    Those that remained in Kosovo, and those that returned or tried to
    return to their homes there after the bombing ended in June, found
    their lives threatened once again by the now triumphant ethnic
    Albanians. Thousands of Roma were forced to flee at gunpoint, with
    only the clothes on their backs. Estimates range from 125,000 -
    200,000 Kosovar Roma who have either fled to other parts of Serbia,
    or sought refuge in other European countries

    http://emperors-clothes.com/interviews/ceda.htm

    Driven From Kosovo!

    Interview with Čedomir Prlinčević, Director of Archives of Kosovo Province (Serbia), President of the Jewish Community in Priština, capital of Kosovo

    In March 1999, before NATO began bombing Serbia, Mr. Prlinčević, then 61, was chief archivist of Kosovo. Three months later he and his family were refugees in Belgrade. As he says, they didn’t have time to pack a suitcase before they had to run for their lives.

    Jared Israel: So you are the President of the Jewish Community in Priština?

    Čedomir Prlincevic: We have all left. Even if I had a paper which said I am the President of the Jewish Community of Priština, in English, signed by the President of the Federation of Jewish Communities from Belgrade, the officers from [NATO-owned] KFOR, refused to recognize that paper and I was kept imprisoned in my home for one week… The powers from Albania came into the country. Their main purpose was to get all the non-Albanian population out. With help from Eliz Viza from Israel, I was rescued… all our apartments and our houses were completely robbed and demolished.

    Israel: Put it this way: they haven’t been stopped?

    Prlinčević: No one is stopping them. And with KFOR’s assistance, actually.

    Israel: Were they armed?

    Prlinčević: With machine guns. They completely cleared out the building and the whole area where we lived.

    Israel: But you are saying they have sent in Albanians in large numbers from Albania?

    Prlinčević: Yes, [these murders were committed by] the foreign Albanians. This is a pogrom toward the non-Albanian population all around the Kosovo area

    Prlinčević: KFOR was in my house when they came there.

    Israel: What?

    Prlinčević: When the Albanians started to destroy apartments, someone called KFOR and a KFOR officer came inside the house; he was there with his squad. And that’s what surprised us the most. Instead of defending the population, KFOR just stand by and watch what is happening as if it is not a relevant situation. During June and July 300,000 people left Kosovo, which is the non-Albanian population, Serbians, Turks, Gorani [Slavic Muslims] , ’Gypsies,’ that is the Romi, also people from Montenegro. 300,000.

  41. @ “But the Serbs were not the perpetrators. They were the victims”

    Wrong as usual. Both sides comitted war crimes in Croatia, but as usual the Serbs started it, just as they did in Bosnia, and tried to do in Slovenia (but luckily for Slovenia they did not have much of a Serbian minority there).

    I guess you are too stupid to remember the JNA & Krajina Serbs ethnic cleansing campaign of 1991-1992

    Places like Vukovar, where Serbians massacred Croatian civillians both with massive aerial and artillery bombardments, and then after the town fell they ethnicly cleansed the area.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vukovar

    Or the seige of Dubrovnik

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Dubrovnik

    Or the Dalj massacre and ethnic cleansing by Serbians (including your hero Arkan) of the non Serbian population of Erdut, Dalj and Aljmas in 1991.

    Then there was the Široka Kula massacre, the Lovas massacre (where non Serb civillians were forced to walk through a Serbian minefield at gunpoint in order to clear it), the Baćin massacre, the Škabrnja massacre, the Bruška massacre, well you get the idea.

    Civillians on both sides were victims, but Serbia started the ethnic cleansing.

  42. Robert:
    > 3. The bogus “al-Qaeda in Pankisi” threat was fabricated by the Georgians (Shevardnadze) government so the US would arm and train their soldiers in the “war on terrorism”.

    Thank you, Robert, for explaining how Georgian leaders fabricate bogus disinformation “so the US would arm and train their soldiers”.

    Couldn’t have said it better myself. They did it with respect to the “Al Qaeda threat”; they are doing it now with respect to the “Russian threat”. Georgia cannot let Abkhazian and S. Ossetian people have their independence, so they provoke artillery exchanges and then use them as an excuse to invade S. Ossetia. They did so in August 2008 in the hope that “US would arm and train their soldiers” if not fight a war for them, but they miscalculated.

    • @”Thank you, Robert, for explaining how Georgian leaders fabricate bogus disinformation “so the US would arm and train their soldiers”.

      You’re welcome. And now notice what happened to those Georgian leaders (hint: Rose Revolution).

      @Couldn’t have said it better myself.

      That’s true, too.

      @They did it with respect to the “Al Qaeda threat”; they are doing it now with respect to the “Russian threat”.

      Except the Russian threat actually resulted in the death of hundreds of Georgians (and also one Dutch civilian) and there are plenty of armed Russians in Georgia for real.

      @Georgia cannot let Abkhazian and S. Ossetian people have their independence, so they provoke artillery exchanges and then use them as an excuse to invade S. Ossetia.

      It’s not “independence”, but annexation by Russia (it actually already happened in all but name).

      And Kokoity is very, very open about how he wants the Georgians to “never return” to their homes (and that’s why his men burned them down – they also burned the corpses of Georgian soldiers, starting on the 5th day of the war). Add to this the fact the ethnic Georgians were actually the undisputed MAJORITY of population in Abkhazia before the war and maybe you’ll understand the Georgian position.

      @They did so in August 2008 in the hope that “US would arm and train their soldiers” if not fight a war for them, but they miscalculated.

      They actually only hoped their 2,000 soldiers strained in Iraq (some of the best trained and equipped troops they had) to be airlifted back as asson as possible. But yes, they didn’t get even this.

  43. > there are plenty of armed Russians in Georgia for real

    They are internationally recognised peace-keepers, and Georgia signed the agreement to have them there:

    http://www.rferl.org/content/What_Could_Replace_Russian_Peacekeepers_In_Breakaway_Regions/1192520.html

    Radio Free Europe, Radio Freedom /owned by the US Congress and operated by the CIA/, August 20, 2008

    The Russian peacekeepers in both regions have by and large fulfilled their mandates… Georgia’s military onslaught on the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, during the night of August 7-8… In Abkhazia, a Russian peacekeeping contingent was deployed in the summer of 1994 under the aegis of the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS), after the signing of a UN-brokered cease-fire agreement between Georgia and Abkhazia. No date was set for the expiration of their mandate, and they can be withdrawn only with the consent of both the Georgian and Abkhaz sides… Russian contingent in the Abkhaz conflict zone was from the outset the target of attacks and ambushes by Georgian guerrilla forces… Russian military sources claim that at least 1,600 Russian peacekeepers have been killed in Abkhazia since 1994. The unarmed UN Observer Mission in Georgia (UNOMIG), too, has suffered casualties. Its personnel have been abducted at gunpoint on three separate occasions, in October 1999, June 2000, and December 2000. In the fall of 2001, when Shevardnadze co-opted a group of Chechen fighters to infiltrate Abkhazia via the Kodori Gorge, a UNOMIG helicopter was shot down, killing nine people, including five UNOMIG personnel… in light of the pressing need to provide security for all residents of South Ossetia, the provisional peace plan agreed on by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and his French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy in Moscow on August 12, an abridged version of which Saakashvili endorsed on August 13, makes provision for the implementation by the original Russian peacekeeping contingent in South Ossetia of unspecified “additional security measures” pending the “international mechanisms.”

    http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL8187260

    Over 10 Russian peacekeepers killed in S.Ossetia, Fri Aug 8, 2008

    MOSCOW, August 8 (Reuters) – More than 10 Russian peacekeepers have been killed during fighting in Tskhinvali, the capital of Georgia’s breakaway region of South Ossetia, news agencies quoted a top Russian military commander as saying on Friday. “As a result of Georgian shelling more than 10 of our peacekeepers were killed and nearly 30 were wounded”.

    http://nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=19554

    By Dmitri Simes, President Nixon’s policy adviser and the president of The Nixon Center for Peace and Freedom:

    President Saakashvili ordered a full-scale assault on Tskhinvali. And mind you, the assault could only succeed if the Georgian units went right through the battalion of Russian troops serving as international peacekeepers according to agreements signed by Tbilisi itself in the 1990s.

    The Russian forces had three choices: to surrender, to run away, or to fight. And fight they did. Saakashvili was reckless to count on proceeding with a blitzkrieg in South Ossetia without a Russian counterattack.

    • @They are internationally recognised peace-keepers, and Georgia signed the agreement to have them

      They are internationally recognised occupiers (by all countries in the world except Nicaragua), who according to the French-brokered agreements should have return to their initial positions immediately after the ceasefire came into effect (for vast majority of them it means their bases in North Ossetia, Chechnya and elsewhere).

      And they are failing to do so for nearly a full year already, including absolutely illegally occupying the territories that were under undisputed full Tbilisi control prior to the 2008 war (and used to be populated mostly by ethnic Georgians – no more).

  44. > Unlike your Russia, Georgia is at war with al-Qaeda. It was one of the leading contributors to the US-led coalition. At the time of the Russian invasion, Georgia had 2,000 soldiers in Iraq.

    Bull. The US-led coalition Iraq invaded Iraq, not Al Qaeda. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq prior to the invasdion. It was the American invasion that eliminated Al Qaeda’s enemy Saddam and brought Al Qaeda into Iraq. Thus, Georgia is at war with Iraq, not Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is only one of many horrible problems that have plagued Iraq ever since USA occupied it. Show me where Georgia actually declared war on Al Qaeda.

    In any case, here is an interesting fact. Bin Laden’s Al Qaeda was created, armed and funded by the CIA as a weapon against Russians in the 1980s.

    Saddam and Bin Laden were bitter rivals and enemies. Before the First Gulf War, there was no Al Qaeda allowed in Saddam’s Iraq. As the result of this war, USA took away from Saddam Kurdish North Iraq – and soon Al Qaeda blossomed there! As the US Secretary of State Powell put it:

    “Zarqawi fought in the Afghan war [against Russians] more than a decade ago. In Afghanistan, he oversaw a terrorist training camp. One of the specialties of this camp is poisons. When our coalition ousted the Taliban, the Zarqawi network helped establish another poison and explosive training center camp – in northeastern Iraq. The network is teaching its operatives how to produce ricin and other poisons. Those helping to run this camp are Zarqawi lieutenants operating in northern Kurdish areas outside Saddam Hussein’s controlled Iraq.”

    While the American planes flew day and night over the demarcation line defending Kurds and Zarqawi’s poison factories from Saddam, Saddam’s part of Iraq remained off-limits to Al Qaeda. However, the Americans started the Second Gulf War and occupied Iraq, presumably bringing peace, law and order there -– and boom! Iraq became the hotbed for Al Qaeda camps!

    In other words, not only was Al Qaeda created by USA, but our American government seems to bring Al Qaeda with it wherever we go and invade. Our warmongering government seems to be spreading Al Qaeda all over the world the way rats spread plague or the way rabid dogs spread rabies.

    • @Show me where Georgia actually declared war on Al Qaeda.

      Where? In Iraq, of course. Diyala Governorate. In 2007 (when for examples the Poles were already leaving), the Georgian contingent in Iraq was increased more than twice (from 800 to 2,000).

      The worst loss came from one of attacks the AQI’s April-May 2008 offensive:

      “May 2, 2008: Insurgents infiltrated across the Syrian border into Al Anbar province and rounded up and beheaded 11 policemen, along with a son of one of them, from the al-Rimana police station in the area of the border city of Al-Qaim.[25] Four U.S. Marines were killed when their vehicle drove over an IED in al-Anbar province.[26] Also, two Georgian soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb in Diyala province.[27]”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Al-Qaeda_offensive_in_Iraq

      More about their death:

      http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=17754

      Lieutenant Giorgi Margiev and Corporal Zura Gvenetadze died after their Hummer was hit by an improvised explosive device in the province of Diyala while being on patrol mission, Giga Tatishvili, deputy chief of staff said on May 3.

      • @Show me where Georgia actually declared war on Al Qaeda.
        >Where? In Iraq, of course. Diyala Governorate. In 2007 (when for examples the Poles were already leaving), the Georgian contingent in Iraq was increased more than twice (from 800 to 2,000).

        Stop insulting my intelligence:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war
        A declaration of war is a formal performative speech act or signing of a document by an authorized party of a government in order to initiate a state of war between two or more nations.

        So, when and where did the President of Georgia or any other authorized party of the Georgian government make a speech act or sign a document that declared war on Al Qaeda?

        • @Stop insulting my intelligence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war A declaration of war is a formal performative speech act or signing of a document by an authorized party of a government in order to initiate a state of war between two or more nations. So, when and where did the President of Georgia or any other authorized party of the Georgian government make a speech act or sign a document that declared war on Al Qaeda?

          I’m sorry to “insult your intelligence” again,
          “Phobophobe”, but al-Qaeda is not a nation…

          …you idiot.

        • I’m sorry again, Robert, but al-Qaeda not being a nation hasn’t stopped our “great Republican Administration” from declaring that USA is in a permanent war with Al Qaeda:

          http://www.politicalbase DOT com/forums/topic/bush-declares-indefinite-state-of-war/8840/.

          Bush Declares Indefinite State of War

          President Bush has quietly moved to expand the reach of presidential power by ensuring that America remains in a state of permanent war.

          Buried in a recent proposal by the Administration is a sentence that has received scant attention — and was buried itself in the very newspaper that exposed it Saturday. It is an affirmation that the United States remains at war with al Qaeda, the Taliban and “associated organizations.”

          It was under the guise of war that President Bush claimed a legal mandate for his warrantless wiretapping program, giving the National Security Agency power to intercept calls Americans made abroad. More of this program has emerged in recent years, and it includes the surveillance of Americans’ information and exchanges online. “War powers” have also given President Bush cover to hold Americans without habeas corpus — detainment without explanation or charge.

          …you genius.

          • Yeah, it’s really, REALLY outrageos that Shevardnadze didn’t use a series of attacks in the country of United States in America to declare “Indefinite State of War” in the country of Georgia on another continent (so he would “expand the reach of [his] presidential power” before the Rose Revolution brought him down).

            You idiot.

  45. @ There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq prior to the invasdion.

    But there is now.

    And it’s much more active than the original gangsta al-Qaeda in AfPak (were it’s mostly the Taliban activity, aQ being only one of their associates) or anywhere else for that matter.

    And no, there is now al-Qaeda in Caucasus.

    @In any case, here is an interesting fact. Bin Laden’s Al Qaeda was created, armed and funded by the CIA as a weapon against Russians in the 1980s.

    Al-Qaeda was created by bin Laden and al-Zawahiri (of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad) in the 1990s. It was funded by the Saudi donnors. It never been very much of “armed”.

    And in the 1980s it was Soviets (like General Dudayev, the original Chechen separatist leader, or the guy who would later lead the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan but in the 1980s was a Soviet paratrooper) and not Russians.

    @As the US Secretary of State Powell put it:

    Are you really retarded? All of this was completely untrue. ALL of this. (Including even the “Zarqawi fought in the Afghan war” part, he was only a cameraman and arrived only as the Soviets were already leaving.)

    @While the American planes flew day and night over the demarcation line defending Kurds and Zarqawi’s poison factories from Saddam,

    Zarqawi never had any “poison factories”. The US special forces and Kurdish peshmergas made a short work of his Ansar buddies in April 2003.

    @In other words, not only was Al Qaeda created by USA

    In other words, you are a total idiot. But we already knew this.

    • @And no, there is now al-Qaeda in Caucasus.

      “There is no”, of course.

      How to join the club:

      http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/06/22/franchising_al_qaeda/

      Regarding the creation of al-Qaeda in Iraq in 2004:

      “Should Al Qaeda prematurely allow a group to adopt its name, that group may embark on actions contrary to Al Qaeda’s ideology that could damage its reputation and embarrass its leaders. Al Qaeda needs to be sure that groups bearing its name operate in line with its long-term vision to protect its status as the leader of the global jihadist movement.

      This was evident in the formation of Al Qaeda in Iraq. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq until his death last summer, engaged in eight months of negotiations with the leaders of Al Qaeda before pledging his allegiance to bin Laden and merging his Tawhid wal Jihad group with Al Qaeda in October 2004. The reasons for the lengthy negotiations were probably in part due to the difficulty of transmitting secure messages between Zarqawi and the Al Qaeda leadership. However, both sides also likely hesitated due to conflicting beliefs in strategies and tactics on how to wage jihad.

      The leaders of Al Qaeda were likely concerned with how a merger with Zarqawi might affect its brand. Zarqawi had risen to fame in Iraq through horrendous filmed decapitations of hostages that generated publicity but alienated many, some of whom Al Qaeda viewed as potential supporters. In a July 2005 letter, Zawahiri reminded Zarqawi “that we are in a media battle in a race for the hearts and minds of our Ummah.” Zawahiri chastised Zarqawi for his brutality, arguing, “Among the things which the feelings of the Muslim populace who love and support you will never find palatable are the scenes of slaughtering the hostages.” Notably, filmed beheadings from Al Qaeda in Iraq had ceased by the time Zarqawi pledged allegiance to bin Laden, perhaps indicating that even Zarqawi understood that maintaining the name of Al Qaeda trumped any publicity from such gruesome scenes of horror.”

      (Yes, Zarqawi was actually too radical for Dr. Zawahiri.)

      And more:

      “The decision to carry the Al Qaeda name is not an entirely easy choice for a group. Bearing the brand requires a certain amount of deference to Al Qaeda’s leadership, both operationally and ideologically, which the leaders of some groups might find distasteful. On a security level, any group touting the Al Qaeda name will instantly become an international enemy to countries around the world combating the jihadist threat. At the same time, however, there are immense benefits. The name is so powerful and widely respected within the global jihadist community that merely being associated with it affords a group instant social support, grants it a worldwide audience, and ensures a steady stream of international mujahideen willing to fight alongside the group’s members.”

  46. Robert wrote:
    @As the US Secretary of State Powell put it:
    > Are you really retarded? All of this was completely untrue. ALL of this.

    Really? This is news to me. Back in the Winter of 2003 I was undecided about the wisdom of invading Iraq. Like almost everybody else in USA, I had been unwittingly brainwashed not only by the American but also by the foreign Western mass media into believing that Saddam had stockpiles of WMDs, especially chemical and biological weapons. This had been the completely accepted and self-evident truth held by all American media for at least 5 or 6 years prior to 2003. The way US journalists treated this issue was exactly the same they treated the issue of whether the Earth rotates around the Sun: of course, it’s true! On the other hand, I dislike war and was wondering if there were a less violent way to rid Saddam of WMDs. In advance of Powell’s speech, I expected him to totally nail Saddam by providing tons of irrefutable evidence of WMDs in Iraq. But as I listened, I began to grow disillusioned because his “evidence” was completely benign and totally unconvincing. But it got even worse towards the end when Powell blamed Saddam for the actions of Al Qaeda and Zarqawi. It was at that very moment that I made up my mind that I would appose the war on Iraq. On pure principle: anything that is started with a lie, is evil.

    However, while seeing how Powell was demagogical in falsely blaming Saddam for all those terrible Islamic Extremist crimes, I still subconsciously thought that these facts were more or less correct, only that Powell blamed the wrong man for these facts. And mind you, I was one of the most skeptical Americans on this topic. At that time, our media told Americans that, with a few small mistakes, Powell’s speech was truthful. After US occupied Iraq and no WMDs were found, the press became more critical of that speech, blaming the CIA and the British intelligence for lying to Bush and Powell about these WMDs.

    But I assure you that until you have just told this, I never knew that EVERYTHING in that speech was a lie, from start to finish. And I have been in the top 1% of the most severe critics of this speech!

    Look, for the last 13 or 14 years I have been highly critical of the American and European governments and their propaganda machine brainwashing the public. I saw the level of this brainwashing approaching that of the way the Soviet Union brainwashed its own citizens through TV and newspapers.

    But what you have just told me takes this several notches up. Look, when Soviet leaders made speeches, maybe 40% of their facts were true and 60% – false. When Nazi leaders Hitler and Goebbels made speeches, maybe 20% of their facts were true and 80% – false. But you now tell me that 100% of the facts in the US Secretary’s of State speech are false? So, this is a new World record in the amount of lies in a speech?! And mind you, Powell didn’t invent this speech on his own. He was ordered to put these lies into his speech by the President and the Vice-President!

    So, now that we know that in terms lying, the US government and media are more deceitful than were those of USSR and Nazi Germany, where do we go next? Whom can we now trust? Which country do you live in and which sources do you go to for information?

    • Blah blah blah. Stop pretending you only understood now, Powell already admitted it several years ago and apologized for this. He said he has been mislead. With the shady sources ranging from the Russians, to Georgians, to Iraqi defectors, all with their own agendas, it’s actually very possible.

      There is actually one part of this is partially true, as Zarqawi had a camp in Afghanistan. However it was (check for yourself, I don’t remember now) either very small or shared with some other organization and not connected to al-Qaeda in any way (he has recognised bin Laden authority only in 2004) and it had nothing to do with poisons.

      Now you may take a look at http://tiny.cc/UAHOx for the analysis of the “ricin” and “Zarqawi the poison specialist” claims made in 2005.

      Fragment: “Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov even suggested Bin Laden himself might be in the Pankisi Gorge.” Well, more about this in detail:

      “Where is bin Laden?” Ivanov asked at a news conference. “Some rule out the possibility that he is in the northern Caucasus. Maybe that seems sensational to some, but why not? We have other information that militants that we know that have fled Afghanistan … that there were Chechens, Arab mercenaries who sought a place to flee to. Some are in Georgia in the Pankisi Gorge…”

      Yeah, “why not”? The “other information” included finding “plans of WTC attacks” in Chechnya in Sept 2001, repeatedly (in the form of NYC maps and flying manuals, because as you probably know, they learnt how to fly in Chechnya’s bomb shelters and not in American flight schools).

      And compare this “maybe sensational” statements to the Georgian sane response:

      In response to Ivanov’s comments, a spokeswoman for Georgia’s Security Ministry, Vika Chubinidze, said: “There are no grounds to consider that bin Laden may be in the Pankisi Gorge.”

      And after fed with such and other “info” (disinformation) from their “Russian partners”:

      U.S. officials have become increasingly concerned that parts of Georgia may become a haven for terrorists. U.S. charge d’affaires Philip Remler told a Georgian newspaper that several dozen terrorists from Afghanistan are now operating in the region, and some are staying in the Pankisi Gorge.

      http://www.watchdog.cz/index.php?show=000000-000004-000004-000003-000040&lang=1

      On related note, you may also check out this regarding the neverending “Chechen sighting” hysteria all over the world:

      http://easterncampaign.wordpress.com/2007/08/24/imaginary-chechens-attack/

      http://easterncampaign.wordpress.com/2007/08/26/whoops-they-caught-a-chechen/

  47. > And no, there is no al-Qaeda in Caucasus.

    Sure there has been al-Qaeda in Caucasus. Since you don’t trust any source other than anti-Russian media outlets and Islamic extremist sources, let me start with a famous russophobic newspaper:

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0907/p01s02-woeu.html
    Al Qaeda among the Chechens
    As Russians bury their dead, officials look at terrorist links to Chechen rebels.
    The Christian Science Monitor

    BESLAN, RUSSIA – Among the wilted flowers brought to celebrate the first day of classes in the now blackened wreckage of Beslan’s School No. 1 are the abundant signs of a sophisticated terror operation. That evidence is sparking a re-examination of the long-standing Chechen links to Al Qaeda…. the battle Friday that freed more than 700 people, and officially left 338 dead, half of them children….the web of explosives rigged from the ceiling and walls of the gymnasium, where more than 1,200 agonized hostages were held for three days.

    In recent months, radical Islamist Chechen leaders such as Shamil Basayev, along with Osama bin Laden, have been “clear” about wanting to “set Russia on fire,” says Michael Radu, a terrorism expert at the Foreign Policy Research Institute in Philadelphia. “This is not an Al Qaeda operation: These are autonomous groups,” he says. “It’s not like bin Laden wrote the checks. But they are synchronized ideologically and strategically.”
    Still officials here say the evidence suggests a complex operation and the kind of preparation once given in the Al Qaeda training camps of Afghanistan.

    An Al Qaeda-connected group calling itself the Islambouli Brigades, which has been active in Pakistan, claimed responsibility for both the simultaneous downing of two passenger jets on Aug. 24, that left 90 dead, and a suicide bomb in Moscow on August 31 that killed ten more.

    Ties between Chechen radicals and Al Qaeda stretch back to the first Chechen war (1994-1996). A radical element – spurred by would-be clerics who traveled to Saudi Arabia to learn about the Salafi fundamentalist strain of Islam – began to develop in the late 1990s. By 1999, when Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev invaded Russian territory in Dagestan – prompting a second war – it became clear that Islamic radicals dominated Chechen rebel groups. “Chechnya began to attract [Al Qaeda] emissaries, adventurers, and finances,” says Alexander Iskandaryan, head of the Center for Caucasian Studies in Yerevan, Armenia. “After 1999, the radical tendency grew strong, and became more internationalized.”
    ————————

    Here is what James S. Robbins from the Washington Times wrote in William F. Buckley’s National Review:

    http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YzZiN2VjMTc4NDM4ZTk2Y2E1YWU1YjgxNjBjYmY2MjU=

    The Chechen Connection

    Though operational links between Al Qaeda and the Chechens remain sketchy, it is believed that Chechen fighters loyal to bin Laden comprised his shock force and perhaps bodyguard at Tora Bora. As well, Jordanian-born Chechen guerilla Omar Ibn al Khattab, now deceased, had links to bin Laden dating back to the Soviet war in Afghanistan. Ironically, in 2000 Ambassador Usmanov wrote Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., suggesting “tens of Chechen refugees” be brought to live in Arizona. “I thought it would be nice for Chechens,” Usmanov said. “Arizona is a mountain region – not beautiful like Chechnya – but anyway, a nice region for Chechens.”
    —————————————————-

    For a more assertive analysis of Al Qaeda in Chechnya see

    http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/004893.html

    • Phobophobe, we already know you are retarded. You can stop proving it, really.

      @”let me start with a famous russophobic newspaper”

      :D

      Haha, “Russian officials say”. Yeah, just like they said there was Osama bin Laden in Pankisi too (“why not?”, to quote the “evidence” presented by minister Lavrov).

      There were only 2 Arabs (no, not “Saudi Arabia Arabs, and possibly Afghan terrorists” – but a duo of British-Algerians) there, in unimportant positions:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis#Hostage_takers

      Btw, the Russians never captured a foreign fighter in the Caucuasus. Not even one. Not even non-Arab, I mean any (Turkish, whatever). And by this I mean that maybe they captured some, but all of them were then murdered (presumably brutally). Compare this to the thousands of non-Afghans captured in Afghanistan.

      @”An Al Qaeda-connected group calling itself the Islambouli Brigades, which has been active in Pakistan, claimed responsibility for both the simultaneous downing of two passenger jets on Aug. 24, that left 90 dead, and a suicide bomb in Moscow on August 31 that killed ten more.”

      Except it was actually done by the Chechen shahidkas from Basayev’s “battalion of martyrs” in the course of what he dubbed Operation Boomerang (the idea was that indiscriminate violence inflicted by the Russian troops – tens/hundreds of thousands of dead Chechen civilians – would would come around and hit the Russian civilians at random, and so he killed a few hundred in the attacks on trains, metros and passenger aircrafts mostly 2003-2004).

      The suicide formation was actually created already in 1999 after the series of Russian terror attacks on Grozny – much, much more deadly than the Iraqi attacks against Israel in 1991 (Israel had a warning system and even counter-missiles):

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grozny_ballistic_missile_attack

      @”it is believed that Chechen fighters loyal to bin Laden comprised his shock force and perhaps bodyguard at Tora Bora. ”

      Yeah. Show me one (1) Chechen from this “shock force and perhaps bodyguard”: dead or alive, prisoner or at large, “at Tora Bora” or in Gitmo or in Disneyland (may be “a Disneyland” the Russians said they wanted to build in Chechnya). An ID card, a photo, a video clip, a an audio conversation in the Chechen language, a Chechen flag. Whatever really. Any sort of physical proof that would me to “believe” too. Please, do.

      You know, like those 9 non-Chechen Russian citiziens at Gitmo.

      @“tens of Chechen refugees” be brought to live in Arizona. “I thought it would be nice for Chechens,” Usmanov said. “Arizona is a mountain region – not beautiful like Chechnya – but anyway, a nice region for Chechens.”

      Good idea. There are lots of Chechen refugees in the United States. For example:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyas_Akhmadov

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khassan_Baiev (the Wikipedia is outdated, he since returned to help the kids in his homeland)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albina_Digaeva

      I don’t know, what’s “ironic” here? Let me guess,

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_refugees -They’re CHECHENS! So SCARY! Quick! Hide your women, children and the livestock!

      Something like that, eh?

    • Phobophobe, we already know you are retarded. You can stop proving it, really.

      @”let me start with a famous russophobic newspaper”

      :D

      Haha, “Russian officials say”. Yeah, just like they said there was Osama bin Laden in Pankisi too (”why not?”, to quote the “evidence” presented by minister Lavrov).

      There were only 2 Arabs (no, not “Saudi Arabia Arabs, and possibly Afghan terrorists” – but a duo of British-Algerians) there, in unimportant positions:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis#Hostage_takers

      Btw, the Russians never captured a foreign fighter in the Caucuasus. Not even one. Not even non-Arab, I mean any (Turkish, whatever). And by this I mean that maybe they captured some, but all of them were then murdered (presumably brutally). Compare this to the thousands of non-Afghans captured in Afghanistan.

      @”An Al Qaeda-connected group calling itself the Islambouli Brigades, which has been active in Pakistan, claimed responsibility for both the simultaneous downing of two passenger jets on Aug. 24, that left 90 dead, and a suicide bomb in Moscow on August 31 that killed ten more.”

      Except it was actually done by the Chechen shahidkas from Basayev’s “battalion of martyrs” in the course of what he dubbed Operation Boomerang (the idea was that indiscriminate violence inflicted by the Russian troops – tens/hundreds of thousands of dead Chechen civilians – would would come around and hit the Russian civilians at random, and so he killed a few hundred in the attacks on trains, metros and passenger aircrafts mostly 2003-2004).

      The suicide formation was actually created already in 1999 after the series of Russian terror attacks on Grozny – much, much more deadly than the Iraqi attacks against Israel in 1991 (Israel had a warning system and even counter-missiles):

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grozny_ballistic_missile_attack

      @”it is believed that Chechen fighters loyal to bin Laden comprised his shock force and perhaps bodyguard at Tora Bora. ”

      Yeah. Show me one (1) Chechen from this “shock force and perhaps bodyguard”: dead or alive, prisoner or at large, “at Tora Bora” or in Gitmo or in Disneyland (may be “a Disneyland” the Russians said they wanted to build in Chechnya). An ID card, a photo, a video clip, a an audio conversation in the Chechen language, a Chechen flag. Whatever really. Any sort of physical proof that would me to “believe” too. Please, do.

      You know, like those 9 non-Chechen Russian citiziens at Gitmo.

    • @“tens of Chechen refugees” be brought to live in Arizona. “I thought it would be nice for Chechens,” Usmanov said. “Arizona is a mountain region – not beautiful like Chechnya – but anyway, a nice region for Chechens.”

      Good idea. There are lots of Chechen refugees in the United States. For example:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyas_Akhmadov

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khassan_Baiev (the Wikipedia is outdated, he since returned to help the kids in his homeland)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albina_Digaeva

      I don’t know, what’s “ironic” here? Let me guess,

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_refugees -They’re CHECHENS! So SCARY! Quick! Hide your women, children and the livestock!

      Something like that, eh?

      As of the Scary Chechen sightings everwhere around the world (here focusing in particular in Afghanistan, because it’s the Afghanistan blog and because most of the sightings are in AfPak):

      http://easterncampaign.wordpress.com/2007/08/24/imaginary-chechens-attack/

      http://easterncampaign.wordpress.com/2007/08/26/whoops-they-caught-a-chechen/

      May favourite (and the author’s too, and the guy who cited this before him, it’s just so awesome) “report” cited there:

      “The U.S. Customs Service issued a bulletin late last week urging law enforcement to be on the lookout for two possible Chechen terrorists who may try to enter the United States through Mexico, then travel to Montana. (”Are Chechen terrorists headed for Montana?” Chris Vlasto, ABC News.)”

      Of course (from the original article):

      “The tip is based on intelligence gathered by the Russian Security Services that the two would be traveling under fake names with false Georgian passports, according to sources who passed the alert on to ABCNEWS.”

      Oh yeah, the Russian “security” services. The “reliable” “partners”.

      “It is also unclear what the two Chechens would do in Montana.”

      http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/chechnya-sl/message/29884

      It was from 2003. I guess they’re still on their way, while bin Laden continues to chill out in Pankisi (“why not?”).

      LR, you may reject now my comment “awaiting moderation” (I guessed it was just too long).

  48. Robert, Andrew:

    Let me clarify a procedural matter:

    I would like to officially admit my defeat at your hands. I am simply no match for you in terms of the amount of time you can devote to researching propaganda. Plus you two have a great insurmountable advantage over me: LR allows your side to post thousands and thousands of lines of (mostly irrelevant) text, while I would be banned if I tried to post more than 50 lines.

    You seem to belief that when the reader sees that the volume of your total “digestive output” is 100 times larger than mine, that means that you are 100 times more right than I. While I would love to disprove every lie that you post, that would take at least 600 to 700 hours per day. In fact, just passively reading the tons of merde that you cut-and-paste is a full-time job that not only I but no other reader (imho) can or want to assume even if you pay us.

    So, I will let the readers judge them by themselves. I will continue to simply post the facts about the issues here and hope the readers will find these little morsels in the flood of your verbal diarrhea.

    You two have no respect for this blog, as your voluminous copy-and-paste terrorism makes it unreadable. My only hope is that she readers, seeing the pages of this blog totally strangled by your posts, will not automatically turn away but will seek out shorter posts made by myself and other respectful posters.

    In terms of the task of reading your posts, I will continue the “random dart throw technique”. That is, when faced with yet another unreadable voluminous post, I will pick at random every 100th paragraph and respond to it.

    • @”I would like to officially admit my defeat at your hands. I am simply no match for you in terms of the amount of time you can devote to researching propaganda.”

      Maybe instead of trying to “research propaganda”, the next time you should do some normal research. I guess it could help you to stop making such a total clown out of yourself… maybe.

      @”In fact, just passively reading the tons of merde that you cut-and-paste is a full-time job”

      That’s funny, because that’s you who copy-pasted (before reading?), while I alone fully wrote my response and only linked you where you’d read more about it (you know, where to “reserach propaganda” as you called this – that’s really funny how you find time to write the most moronic things, but not to educate yourself first, or at all).

      (This with the exception of quoting fragment of the report about the 2003 Chechen invasion of Montana, just to show you the source of this comedy – why, the Russian “security” services, of course!)

      But before you go and cry more (don’t forget to look under the bad for the Scary Chechens!), I’d like you very much to clarify on 2 issues:

      First, show me these “Chechens” (any Chechens, not even the “shock force” or whatever, actually just one physically exisiting individual would be enough for me) “at Tora Bora”. You wrote “it is believed”, so I want to believe too. I told you what kind of proof I’m looking for – and it’s just any kind (I’m not picky): a photo, video, audio, interview, prisoner, dead body, Chechen statement, al-Qaeda statement… whatever. Easy enough? Go, fetch. Show me how wrong I am.

      Hint: Lots of folks I know wait for this since the start of Chechen Phantom Stories in September 2001. It’s like what, almost 8 years now? Damn, not only “at Tora Bora” or anywhere in Afghanistan. Might be also a physical proof from Pakistan, Iraq, Somalia (or Montana). People are waiting for any real member of the Chechen Internationale to turn out anywhere.

      And then tell me what’s “ironic” in the idea of “tens of Chechen refugees” (merely tens, as there are many thousands of them in most of the EU countries) to live in Arizona. I’m really curious what “ironic” would be in this. Something to do with Arizona in particular? Should be rather the well-known Chechen-magnet of Montana?

      @”While I would love to disprove every lie that you post”

      Oh please. Try to first find and then “disprove” ONE (1) “lie that I post”. I don’t know you and I don’t care about you (and no one else does), but I love a good laugh, you know. Come on, don’t take it away from us!

  49. Andrew, Robert -

    I agree with phobophobe: you are wasting too much time trying to argue his non-sensical posts. In fact, I would argue that the more you write the more you write (this thread has 121 posts so far, and I guess half of them are on the irrelevant topic of Yugoslavia) – the more a casual reader would think that there must be some point somewhere in his diatribes, since it riles you up so quickly.

    As penny said, every response is a lifeline! Let akhmed, sascha, and salman answer him. It’s such an exciting show!

    • Felix, I and many others are looking for the proof of the dreaded Chechen expeditional force (aka “bin Laden’s Chechen shock force”, “Chechen spooky brigade” or “Chechen ghost corps”) since 2001, and I just thought he would probably share me some new information (or “propaganda”, as he call this)… like in http://www.registan.net/index.php/2009/07/03/army-major-disputes-story-of-chechen-fighters-in-afghanistan/ where the Real American Hero named “C hally” personally nabbed some of them phantom menace (in the comment section). Do you really think someone with such a clever nickname as “Phobophobe” would disappoint me on this?

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