Alexander Kwasniewski, formerly the president of Poland (1995-2005) calls Europe to task for failing to rally behind Ukraine, in the Wall Street Journal:
It will be 20 years later this month since President George H.W. Bush delivered his historic call for a “Europe whole and free” in Mainz, West Germany. The context in which he spoke was one of optimism and change made possible by Mikhail Gorbachev’s reforms. Four days later, Poland held its first competitive, multiparty elections in more than half a century. By the end of the year the Berlin Wall lay in ruins and a surge of people power had dismantled one-party rule from the Baltics to the Black Sea. The Soviet Union survived for another two years, but its fate had effectively been sealed.
The old Europe of Great Power rivalry, machtpolitik and spheres of influence was to become a thing of the past. There would be no more Yaltas, no more Berlin Walls. The prospect of European Union enlargement helped to sustain former communist countries in the difficult task of political and economic reform. Ten of them are now full members, contributing to the EU’s vitality. More controversially, NATO has also expanded to the east. In countries accustomed to the benefits of security and territorial integrity, this is often dismissed as a second-order issue. For the countries that have joined NATO more recently, it is anything but. It is an affirmation of their identity as part of the democratic world and the ultimate guarantee of their sovereign independence. As Madeleine Albright, U.S. secretary of state at the time, told the foreign ministers of Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic when their countries joined: “Never again will your fates be tossed around like poker chips on a bargaining table.”
Despite these achievements, the process of making Europe “whole and free” is incomplete — and will remain so as long as there are Europeans denied the opportunity to pursue their chosen path. That was the tragedy of the Western Balkans for much of the 1990s. Today, the area of greatest concern is Ukraine. This country of 46 million is too large and too important to be left out of our vision of the Continent’s future. Yet the West’s approach to Ukraine has been hesitant and confused, while the early momentum of the Orange Revolution seems to have stalled in the face of political and economic crisis.
European leaders lament the political divisions and slow pace of reform often found in Ukraine. Many of these criticisms are justified and need to be addressed by the leaders in Kiev. But that lack of progress is, to a considerable extent, a reflection of our failure to embrace the country in a way that endorses its ambition to play a full role in European affairs. There is a reason why reform and accession to the EU and NATO usually go hand in hand. It’s because the prospect of membership makes painful decisions electorally acceptable where they would otherwise be impossible. It isn’t realistic to expect European outcomes without a full European commitment.
Our policy toward Ukraine is thus a question of whether we remain faithful to the idea of a Europe whole and free. This raises problems when dealing with a Russian government that regards neighboring countries as part of what Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has described as its area of “privileged interests.” But while sensitive handling is certainly called for, it would be wholly wrong to treat Ukraine as a disposable asset in negotiations between Russia and the West — a poker chip, as Madeleine Albright put it. Ukraine is an independent European democracy entitled to the same rights and opportunities we claim for ourselves.
It is right for Barack Obama to give Russia the opportunity to set aside recent tensions and make a fresh start in relations with the West, just as it is understandable that German Chancellor Angela Merkel should want Russia to be a reliable partner and energy supplier. But it is vital that European and American leaders pursue the aim of a better relationship with Moscow in ways that honor the basic values on which the new Europe has been built. Undermining the principle of self-determination for any European country should not be considered a price worth paying for closer ties to Russia.
EU or NATO membership for Ukraine is not on the immediate agenda, so there is no point in turning it into an issue of division today. The real test is whether Ukraine will be given the same opportunities extended to other European countries. It needs a structured partnership with both organizations and a firm signal that membership is attainable if it meets the conditions. This is not a question of altruism. The recent energy agreement between the EU and Ukraine, for which President Viktor Yushchenko deserves real credit, is a good example of what Europe stands to gain from encouraging closer integration.
Europe has been transformed since the days of the Cold War, but it is not yet whole and it is not completely free. It cannot be either of those things if 46 million Europeans are denied the right to take part. It is time for Europe and America to embrace Ukraine and renew the promise of 1989.
How does Alexander Kwasniewski propose to embrace the eastern and southern parts of Ukraine which want nothing to do with the western orange revolutions or New World Order plans for their country? EU puppeteers behind the scenes are too arrogrant to realize that their “embrace” is nothing but a kiss of death for Ukraine as a sovereign entity and will surely lead to a civil war. Or perhaps they don’t care?
LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:
How do you imagine anyone will take you and your ridiculous smiley faces the least bit seriously when you don’t offer a shred of factual evidence to back up your claims?
What did Russia think about the Chechens who “wanted nothing to do” with Russia? How about Ingushetia and Dagestan?
America had a civil war and survived to rule the planet. Ukraine can do exactly the same thing if necessary. However, the notion that a moron of your ilk has deep insights into what Ukrainians will do is so farcical it defies description.
By your weird “logic” Russia should have submitted to Hitler rather than fight him because of the obvious risks of fighting,which in fact were fully realized. Sir, you’re a demented hair-brained fool.
Your ignorance is of truly apocalyptic proporations, it doesn’t seem that you think even for a second before you spew out your nonsense.
“America had a civil war and survived to rule the planet. Ukraine can do exactly the same thing if necessary.”
And YOU faced a real challenge in your life just once — when McDonald’s screwed up your order, right?
Ironically enough, Kwasniewski is a former pro-Soviet communist (a minister in the Communist Poland regime).
” New World Order “, Jerry you conspiracy theorist inbred, Ukraine is desperate to join the EU, Yuschenko, Tymoshenko, Yanukovich all want to join the EU. A former Polish President would know more about Ukraine than you would ever know. The Poles and Ukrainians are already co-operating to host the 2012 European Football Championship. Ukraine and Poland have resolved their historical differences.
“Ukraine and Poland have resolved their historical differences.”
And this is amazing, considering how they used to ABSOLUTELY hate each other (hundreds of thousands killed in ethnic violence during WW2 – this stuff was like between Serbs and Croats).
Maybe because they have common “enemy”.
This agent’s arguments are not harebrained if you see them as a propaganda barrage and an advance notice for a Russian aggression.
Read them, but don’t let them stand.
We should support Ukraine if only because they’re such funny little drunken buffoons who provide us good entertainment!
LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:
As opposed to the drunken Russian buffoons who’d be more likely to lynch a black, or poison a Ukrainian president?
Ukraine and Poland have indeed worked hard to resolve our historical differences. Polish AK (Armija Krajowa) and Ukrainian UPA (Українська Повстанська Армія) veterans have been meeting and reconciling, we’ve hung plaques in Bieszczady for Operation Wisła and they’ve hung plaques in Lviv. If anyone saw the 1999 Jerzy Hoffman re-make of Sienkiewicz’s Ogniem i mieczem, it was done with a note of sadness about the failure of Polish-Ukrainian relations in the past.
@Jerry: Ukraine’s borders — like Poland’s — are a “gift” from Stalin, meaning they were designed to do exactly what they are doing, forestalling Ukrainian unity and allowing Moscow to pursue a policy of divid et impera. Stalin purposely included several largely Russian regions with Ukraine just in case the day came when Ukrainian nationalism — which he had largely killed in 1932-33 with the Great artificial famine that murdered between 5-10 million Ukrainians — reappeared. Modern Ukraine is indeed a very divided country and must somehow balance its pro-Western half with its pro-Russian half. That is an act the Ukrainians themselves must work out, but oddly enough, even in the pro-Russian regions, there is little desire to re-join Russia or re-submit to Moscow’s rule. That, it would seem, can be the basis of Ukrainian sovereignty. Poland has realized that a strong, healthy and independent Ukraine is in our best interests and we are, despite all the bloodshed of the past, working things out. We have too much in common not to work things out, and whether Ukraine joins NATO or not, it is clear it has little desire to be a Russian puppet ever again.
Out comes “Jerry”, out of the woodwork, to tell us how Eastern and Southern Ukraine are just pining to be with oily orthodox mother roosha.
What Jerry ignores is –
1) former President Kuchma very famously said – “Ukraine is not Russia”
Which promptly led to a joke –
Pootler has written a book:
“Russia is not Ukraine”
2) As is pointed out above, every one of the major political “forces” in Ukraine has publicly endorsed becoming part of the European Union.
3) Poland has indeed been a good friend to Ukraine, especially during the Orange Revolution.
4) Ukraine is not a “divided country.” For example, Tymoshenko, the current PM, is from Eastern Ukraine, from the Donbass region.
The “political forces,” like the Party of Regions, have tried to play politics with the Russian language “issue” – but that doesn’t create a “divided” country, just groupings of political votes. And that trick is slowly losing its usefulness, as the Party of Regions, which employs that trick, is sinking in the polls.
5) In the UEFA Championship, one of the semi-finals is all-Ukrainian:
Kyiv Dynamo v Shakhtar Donetsk
One of the semi-finals is all-Germans.
There will be a Ukrainian team in the UEFA finals, and all of Ukraine will be cheering for the Ukrainian team.
Why would Eastern and Southern Ukrainians want to be part of the russian Orthodox Church? Kiew accepted Christianity in 988 – and not moscow!
-45% оf Ukranians “absolutely” don’t support joining NATO.
-15% would “rather” not join NATO
-only 11% “absolutely” want to join NATO
-9% would “rather” join NATO
-47% want to join EU, BUT 30% are against. 22% are undecided.
90% of Ukrainains view Russia very favorably.
63% want a EU type of partnership with Russia (open borders, no visas)
25% think that Russia and Ukraine should become a single country
90% [HA HA] An honest poll from the kremlin is an oxymoron!
All of the Oblasts in Ukraine are over 50 % Ukrainian, and most are over 90% Ukrainian.
Most Ukrainians have had relatives in the gulags! There were about 18,000,000+ people sent to the gulags, and some of the camps were 90% Ukrainian! You do the math. Holodomor was not the only genocide orchestrated by the kremlin against the Ukrainians!
My 90% figure comes from a book “ZA POLYRNYM KOLOM”, Lviv-Poltava, 2001.
PS Several of my family members were sent to the gulags. Most of them were Ukrainian teenage girls. None of them were able to give birth when they returned. If you can think, then you can figure out the reasons. [I would explain, but vulgar language is not allowed in this forum.] How many Ukrainian children missed the opportunity to be born in Ukraine?
Some authors like Solzhenitsyn estimating the total at more than 40 million people that went to the gulags. Men, women and children were packed into cattlecars, in sub-zero temperature with just the clothes on their back when they were “arrested”, and the trains would drop them off in the middle of the frozen waste and they were told to build shelters or die. Many died along the way due to the unheated cars, no medical care, etc., and many of those that survived their “sentence” were required to relocate to other parts of russia, and not allowed to return to their village, family or friends. Citizens were given village passports, and if they were caught, then another 3-5 year “sentence” – to the slave labor camps in the gulags. My aunt told me that one of her “jobs” in the gulag was to build railrod tracks in the frozen north! Yes, Ukrainian teenage girls were used for that too.
There are many Ukrainians living in russia, and most of them were forced to do so.
The situation in Ukraine is complicated, Jerry. The point, however, is that this was engineered by Stalin. If Russia had been redesigned so as to include as many non-Russians as it has Russians, it would be just as unstable; but this was done to Ukraine, not to Russia.
Probably the best thing for Ukraine would be to be split in half. Let all those who don’t want to join the EU (and you forgot to mention that statistic, right? Most Ukrainians favor entering the EU…) remain in the Russian half, and let the Ukrainian half of the country break free. This will undo Stalin’s policies, and those who feel their fate is closer to Russia can start the proceedings for reannexation.
Are you and Jerry clones, nashi, FSB, or just plain old-fashioned useful idiots?
I have seen similar posts many,many times, in various places on the internet. The kremlin started with Georgia last year. Now you demand that the kremlin should reoccupy Ukraine? Next, give them chunks of Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia? But wait, there is much more of Eastern Europe that we can give to the kremlin on a silver plater. Oh, I forgot to include Alaska and Brooklyn – or at least Brighton beach, etc. Did we not learn anything from history as to what happened prior to WWII with Hitler? [Now I understand why elmer, and others, call putin – pootler.]
Most of the russified russian speaking Ukrainians are smart enough not to want to return under the heel of the kremlin and have their relatives and friends raped or killed by the KGB, at the whim of the KGB or kremlin! In fact, many that think that they are russian, are actually Ukrainian, because the kremlin had their grandparents killed and their parents raised them as russian to save them from the gulags.
The kremlin fishermen are using the internet to fish for useful idiots whose mind they can poison against Ukraine so that when they try to reoccupy Ukraine, then the world will not care. A classic example are the continuous press releases from the kremlin that Bandera was a Nazi. Meanwhile, Bandera spent 1941 to the end of 1944 in a German concentration camp.
Furthermore, your statement:
“This will undo Stalin’s policies,” is absurd.
Your suggestin would further the policy of stalin. The Ukrainian people, language, culture, and traditions have suffered a genocide for hundreds (100’s) of years. After the Holodonor, there were many empty houses and villages in Ukraine, and stalin relocated russians into the fully-furnished and neatly maintained homesteads in Ukraine.
Jerry is a FSB-agent,it´s not worth to discuss with this human filth and to talk about his propaganda-lies.
I think that Ashape is Jerry’s useful idiot.
Many Ukrainian people do not know whom to trust anymore. The EU countries of Germany France and Italy playing their Coquetry and Preaching while trying to steal something and treating them like nobody. The Constitution was rewritten by Moscali, EU Eurocrats and the Americans after the stolen elections. The Orange Revolution was stopped short of achieving its goal of throwing all the bastards out. Yulia T wanted to throw the doors open to the Mob in the Rada, but was stopped by the “sheep” in her own party. Manipulation of the media by the RaSSiyan Fifth Column based in the Black Sea Fleet of Crimea and the Rooski Orthodox Occupied Pecherska Lavra Monastery in Kyiv is a factor. Education controlled by KGB and No Freedom of the Press. (Journalists murdered and beheaded) No WTO, EU, NATO and other organizations for Ukraine in deference to Moscal interests. Ukraine forced to trade in third world countries to survive. Ukraine is located in the Dead Center of Europe Geographically. The rest of Europe needs Ukraine. To refer to Ukes as Eastern Europeans is a travesty. Deals in Yalta etc. were made as if Ukrainians did not exist. No natural borders were available to stop the diminishing of territory by Mongol Turko Hunic Murdering Moscals, Poles, Romanian etc. The common Rooski mockal propaganda is, “There would be a split up of the country between East and Western parts”. Only Anglo Ignorami would believe this. espescially once the people get proper representation and National Interests are no longer sold out. It will take some time, as the looting is not over yet. Sometimes the blood of Patriots and Tyrants must be shed, to water the tree of liberty. Thomas Jefferson
What you are describing is quite common in young democracies. As culturally diverse countries as Italy, Japan, and India went through this phase – and that’s just 20th century. Most countries survive and mature. The only country that descended into chaos that I can think of is Lebanon in 1970s – but the religious divisions there were much more complex than Ukraine will ever have!
Ukraine=Russia =drunken idiots who can’t even behave on a simple plane flight. Who can tell the difference between them? Oh, right, I guess the immigrant monkeys on this site. I’m telling Michelle Malkin on you!
LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:
If “immigrant monkeys” is your way of showing how tolerant and reasonable you are, you need to try again, it didn’t work.
So Tom, whats your last name?
Maybe if you tell us we can work out where your “immigrant monkey” ancestors came from.
Tom must have read “Uncle Tom’s cabin”?
So what happens when drinking on a plane? The high altitude makes it worse. Strangely this story gets so much play. I think that the opposition regions party (party of rashians in Ukraine) is trying to break up the coalition.
I never heard of a drunk running a country till Yeltsin. No moscali then asked him to resign as it was Rasha after all.
Actually, the usual Russian Chauvinist myth is “There is no Ukraine, just a bunch of Russians with funny accents who like farming and salo.” (Think of it as Tom B speaking if he were a Russian.) The East/West story comes in 2nd, but it also comes at least with some realism to it.
There is no contesting that the East (and South) of Ukraine is very Russified, and although very few East Ukrainians want partition, they do want civil relations with their brethren to the East as much for economic reasons as for political or cultural ones.
In the end, the only thing that has proven to bring both sides of the Dnipro together is Russian Chauvinism. The Orange Revolution owed a decent amount of its success to the fact that the Easterners that the Party of the Regions shipped over for a counterdemonstration switched sides after the first day, and that of course can be traced to Putin’s arrogant decision to call the Ukrainian election for them much as Yushchenko’s original winning vote tally can largely be credited to Putin’s attempting to decide the election by murdering him. In the end, it is going to be Putin’s racism that will win over Ukraine to the West.
“What did Russia think about the Chechens who “wanted nothing to do” with Russia?”
What did the Americans, British, NATO, U.N think? All refused to recognize Chechnya as an independent country after its declaration, and echoed the same rhetoric about “territorial integrity” of Russia, just as it does Georgia today. Try leaving La-La Land, and come down to Earth.
Now TB, in a previous post you complained that America, Britain, NATO etc were trying to dismember good old Russia.
Which is it?
BTW, they refused to recognise Chechnya due to Russian propaganda (they are all islamic terrorists blah, blah, blah) and the fact that unless Russian did so 1st, it could be considered breaching the UN charter by “interfering in the internal affairs of a sovreign state”. Some EU states, fairly stupidly one might add, were afraid that if Chechnya was allowed to leave, the Russian Federation would turn into a giant Lebanon.
The case with Georgia is different TB (though I would not expect someone like you to understand the difference) particularly in the case of Abkhazia, where Georgians have been the largest ethnic group for several thousand years (until the Russian sponsored ethnic cleansing of the early 90’s of course), just read the descriptions of Dioscuras (Sukhumi) by Herodotus and others, a Colchian (Georgian) city and part of the kingdom of Colchis (later Kingdom of Imereti).
Same thing in Samurchubalo (South Ossetia), Georgian for several thousand years. Alans (Ossetians) did not start to come in until the middle ages when they were forced out of their traditional homeland in the Don basin by the Mongols.
Many appeared as refugees in Georgia at this time, and were allowed to settle in Samurchubalo in return for pledging loyalty to the kingdom of Georgia and providing levies of troops.
They remained a minority until the lat 19th & early 20th C when Russian and Soviet “divide & rule tactics were used to force large numbers of Georgians from thier homes, a tactic again recently repeated.
So I suggest (probably in vain) that you get an education TB.
“So I suggest (probably in vain) that you get an education TB.”
The West and Russia can dismember each other for all I care. I’m afraid due to your flawed education, I given up trying to explain to you and every other outlandish conservative here that I’m not pro-Russia. As for the West not recognizing Chechnya, I expected such an absurd response especially from you. Particularly since te West echoes that very same pathetic rhetoric in their wars of aggression. In any event you little “breaching of the UN charter” consideration is moronic to say the least. Surely if you or any Western government recognized Chechnya as independent the UN charter would not apply in Russia’s “internal affairs”. Quite a contradiction from your part.
As for the demographics of Georgia, coming from someone who tried to prove that the populations of South Ossetia numbered in the few hundreds being outweighed by Georgians, you’ve shown your lack in credibility.
Reallt TB, can you show me where I “to prove that the populations of South Ossetia numbered in the few hundreds being outweighed by Georgians”
I never said anything of the sort. I did however (correctly) point out that there are far more Ossetians living in Tbilisi than in all of South Ossetia. Its a fact, and also note that they are fully integrated (and quite loyal) citizens of Georgia.
What I did say was that 1. The Ossetians are not indigenous to Samurchubalo/South Ossetia and 2. Their separatist element used (with a great deal of help over the last 100 years from Russia) ethnic cleansing to make themselves the majority. For both reasons they do not deserve independance.
As for the UN charter argument, I never said what they did was correct (I see it as a major failing incedentally), but it was one of the reasons the west gave for failing to support Chechen independance. You should note that most countries do not support separatism in any shape or form (look at the situation Taiwan finds itself in).
As usual TB, your arguments are pathetic.
Please don’t stop posting TB, your idiotic arguments are almost as amusing as comedy central.
‘Reallt TB, can you show me where I “to prove that the populations of South Ossetia numbered in the few hundreds being outweighed by Georgians”’
Go through the archives to October or November, or around that time where you specifically stated that the Ossetian population of South Ossetia was a minor fraction of the Georgians. South Ossetians throughout Geogria number around 8,000, and the Ossetian population in South Ossetia is about 30,000. But I guess in your little pathetic world numers are reversed. When it comes to pro-western regions the opposing side is never native, right? Wanna talk ethnic cleansing, how about the Georgian government in the early 1990’s revoking non-Georgians citizenships who came to Georgia after 1801. But as I said in your little conservative world a western country could kill off its minorities and you’d still deny ethnic cleansing.
The West didn’t support Chechnya’s independence for the following reasons: 1) Russia was (and still is) America’s business partner, since 1991. 2) The West is staunchly anti-Muslim. 3) Chechnya’s oil is very valuable to the West, better left in the hands of their partners. You may not have said the West right for ignoring Chechnya’s independence, but you made an idiotic apology for them through your oxymoronic statement. I’m sure you didn’t here that after the U.S-led rape of Afghanistan began, a fair number of Chechen rebels were captured alongside the Taliban. America will NEVER support the Chechen resistance or recognize Chechnya as independent no matter how much you whine to your local politician. In fact, they were paying for both wars to an extent. I find your conservative idiocy amusing to say the least, especially your unbelievable contradiction on Chechnya’s independence. You don’t care about Chechnya’s independence anymore than your government. But I’m left with the question, did you have bad luck with a Russian to have kept the pole up your backside to the point where you yearn for a Western-led war with Russia? That’s a serious question. Your pathetic contradictions are as laughable as one of Bush’s sentences.
Actually “Totally Bollocks”, NOT INCLUDING Abkhazia & South Ossetia, during the last census South Ossetians made up 1.5% of the Georgian population. Population of Georgia = 4.6 Million
1.5% of 4.6 Million is 69,000. This is considerably (more than double) more than those living in south Ossetia. It is also an increase since the 2002 census when they made up 1% or 45,000 (which was 1.5 times the population of South Ossetia)
Note (once again I should repeat this because of the insignificant activity in your tiny little brain) that the census was only for those living in territory controlled by the central government and not for separatist areas.
Therefore TB, once again your pathetic arguments fall flat on their face.
Unfortunately it is your pathetic world where numbers are reversed.
Really you should get your facts right.
Now as for Georgia revoking citizenship of those who came to Georgia post 1801. Never happened.
The whole thing was a KGB smear against Gamsakhurdia during Georgias struggle for independance.
EG, one of the women I work with is 1/2 Ukrainian & 1/2 Russian. Her family came on her fathers side to Georgia 100 years ago, and on her mothers side during WW2.
She and her parents all have Georgian citizenship.
Really TB, you are a complete moron.
No significant numbers of Chechens were captured in Afghanistan, as Robert has repeatedly shown, just rumor.
All in all TB, you repeatedly show yourself to be an intellectual pygmy, and a hypocrite.
If Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea et all are such “workers paradises” why dont you live there instead of in the “racist workers slave market” of the USA?
“No significant numbers of Chechens were captured in Afghanistan”
Actually none at all.
Several other Russian citiziens were captured in Afghanistan though:
The seven Russians were all detained soon after the US invasion of Afghanistan and eventually spent about two years in Guantanamo. Although they complained of mistreatment by the Americans, all of the detainees repeatedly asked authorities at Guantanamo not to be returned to Russia because they expected to be treated worse there. And indeed, three of them experienced serious torture and ill-treatment after being arrested in Russia. Two of them were convicted at unfair trials, and all of them have been harassed and hounded by Russian law enforcement. The 43-page report, “The ‘Stamp of Guantanamo:’ The Story of Seven Men Betrayed by Russia’s Diplomatic Assurances to the United States,” reconstructs the experiences of the detainees after being returned to Russia in March 2004, based on interviews with three of the detainees, their family members, lawyers, and others.
A few more Russians were also captured later, like for example this guy: http://easterncampaign.wordpress.com/2007/08/26/whoops-they-caught-a-chechen/ (yeah, the title is ironic).
“I’m sure you didn’t here that after the U.S-led rape of Afghanistan began, a fair number of Chechen rebels were captured alongside the Taliban.”
And I’m sure you didn’t “here” well neither, because zero (as of over 7 years later) is a pretty “fair number” indeed.