Springtime War in Georgia?

The always brilliant Pavel Felgenhauer, writing on the Jamestown Foundation’s Eurasia Daily Monitor:

Six months after the French-brokered agreement ended the Russo-Georgia war on August 12, 2008 the ceasefire continues to be fragile with constant incidents that both sides describe as “provocations.” Last month the Defense Ministry of the separatist South Ossetia said Georgia was moving troops towards its border (RIA-Novosti, January 9). This week the South Ossetian authorities again accused Georgia of “increasing preparations to begin an aggression” and firing two RPG-7 shells at the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali and accused EU observers that monitor the Georgian side of the ceasefire line of turning a blind eye to the alleged Georgian military buildup. On January 26, Tbilisi signed an agreement with the EU observer mission to limit its armed presence near South Ossetia and Abkhazia to one battalion (500 men) and exclude all heavy weapons. The South Ossetian authorities called this agreement a sham to cover “the preparation of an aggression” (Interfax, February 9).

The EU monitors in turn say they found no evidence of Georgian troop concentrations near South Ossetia or Abkhazia, or preparations for military action. The EU observer mission announced it would be willing to investigate Ossetian accusations of Georgia’s shelling of Tskhinvali, if it is granted access to the city (Novosti-Gruzia, February 11). This week the South Ossetian police detained two OSCE observers for “illegally crossing into South Ossetian territory” and after three hours expelled them to Georgian-controlled territory. The OSCE protested that the incident had “violated the diplomatic status of the observers.” Tbilisi called the incident a “provocation.” The South Ossetian authorities accusing the OSCE and EU observers of siding with Georgia, said they were “systematically crossing into South Ossetia and increasing tension in the region.” Since last August, foreign observers are not allowed to enter South Ossetia. The authorities in Tskhinvali say they may allow the OSCE back in only after its recognition of South Ossetia’s sovereignty (Interfax, February 11).

After the war with the central authorities in Tbilisi in 1991-1992 during and after the collapse of the Soviet Union, separatist South Ossetia continued to be geographically and economically part of Georgia. The borders were open and trade was brisk. Ossetians and the Georgians living in South Ossetia were earning a living on transit trade and contraband through Ossetia into Russia. Now the transit trade is dead and the depleted population of South Ossetia, from where the ethnic Georgians have been ethnically cleansed, is surviving on only limited aid. The only mountain road from South Ossetia to Russia, as always during winter, has been closed by snow for weeks (RIA-Novosti, January 7).

South Ossetia, isolated and with its “independence” unrecognized by the international community, is in crisis. This may explain the constant bellicose statements coming from Tskhinvali: renewed military confrontation may seem the only way to end the unacceptable status quo, established by the August 12 ceasefire.

The belligerence of the separatists is actively supported by Moscow, which has its own reasons to detest the status quo. The Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov announced, “Russia is concerned about Georgian troop concentrations near the borders of South Ossetia and Abkhazia” (RIA-Novosti, January 16). EU assurances that there is no “troop concentration” are not accepted. This week the Russian permanent representative in the OSCE, Anvar Azimov, announced, “The Georgians are concentrating troops and heavy weapons, building new bases and checkpoints.” Azimov accused the EU observers of impotence and illegally trying to move their operations into Abkhazia and South Ossetia (RIA-Novosti, February 11).

The ceasefire last August has left the strategically important Russian base in Armenia cut off with no overland military transit connections. The number of Russian soldiers in Armenia is limited to some 4000, but during 2006 and 2007 large amounts of heavy weapons and supplies were moved in under an agreement with Tbilisi from bases in Batumi and Akhalkalaki (Georgia). At present there are some 200 Russian tanks, over 300 combat armored vehicles, 250 heavy guns and lots of other military equipment in Armenia – enough to fully arm a battle force of over 20,000 (Nezavisimoye Voyennoye Obozrenie, August 20, 2004). Forces in Armenia can be swiftly expanded by bringing in manpower by air transport from Russia. Spares to maintain the armaments may also be shipped in by air, but if a credible overland military transit link is not established within a year or two, there will be no possibility to either replace or modernize equipment. The forces will consequently degrade, undermining Russia’s commitment to defend its ally Armenia and Moscow’s ambition to reestablish its dominance in the South Caucasus.

Azerbaijan has accused Russia of handing over to the Armenian military Russian armament holdings on Armenian territory: including 21 tanks, 44 CAVs, 30 guns, other military equipment and munitions (www.bakililar.az, January 10). The Azeris have rejected Russian denials (Interfax, January 20). It is clear that Azerbaijan will not permit military transit into Armenia and Georgia will not do so without serious concessions from Russia on Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

While snow covers the Caucasian mountain passes until May, a renewed war with Georgia is impossible. There is hope in Moscow that the Georgian opposition may still overthrow Mikheil Saakashvili’s regime or that the Obama administration will somehow remove him. However, if by May, Saakashvili remains in power, a military push by Russia to oust him may be seriously contemplated. The constant ceasefire violations could escalate to involve Russian servicemen – constituting a public casus belli. The desire by the West to “reset” relations with Moscow, putting the Georgia issue aside, may be interpreted as a tacit recognition of Russia’s right to use military force.

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59 responses to “Springtime War in Georgia?

  1. Georgia will become a grave of Russian imperialism

  2. Leonid V. Marchenko

    Georgia will become a grave of NATO expancion to the east!

    If Georgia decides to re-view the results of 080808 war, Russia will easyly re-show them…

    LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:

    That’s pretty big talk about a country one-tenth your size. Are you always so brave? Would you like to teach the USA a few lessons too? How about NATO? Will you school NATO in the amazing features of Russian power?

    You sound like a crude thug, a bully, and exactly the reason NATO was created in the first place. And you stand utterly alone, without a single significant ally in the world

    We pity you.

  3. Leonid V. Marchenko

    The first lesson to NATO and especialy US: get the hell out of Kirgyztan! Its a sphere of russia priveleged interests.

    LA RUSSOPOBE RESPONDS:

    The first lesson for Russia: Your big mouth is writing checks your tiny pathetic military can’t cash.

  4. Leonid V. Marchenko

    As tzar Alexandr said: Russia has only two allys – its Army and Fleet.

    LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:

    Having studied history in Russia, you obviously were not told that the institution of the Tsar collapsed because of its total incompetence, and then the Communist regime that replaced it proved even worse and also collapsed, making Russia the least stable and successful major nation in the world over the last century. Today Russia’s “fleet” is the laughingstock of the world and the Army, riddled by dedovschina and deserations, is a mockery of power.

    Please don’t drink vodka so heavily before posting on this blog. It makes you too easy a target, very boring.

  5. Leonid V. Marchenko

    Russia doesn’t want to change the world anymore. So Russia’s military should only be big enough to defend it’s natural riches. And it can defend them easyly. So what else can you say?

    LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:

    We say you’re an idiot and a liar. Russian forces were not defending natural riches when they entered Georgia in August, and they can’t defend Russian riches from Chinese billions in the Far East. Moreover, the point of this “discussion” was that Russia’s army is totally useless against NATO, which can crush Russia at will.

  6. Leonid V. Marchenko

    However riddled with dedevshina Russian Army may be, it will crush american-trained marionetts like so-called “georgian army” just as easyly…

    LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:

    The difference between a jackass and Russia is that while a jackass can squash an ant, he doesn’t take any pride in it, being intelligent enough to realize it would make him look like a fool.

    By the way, Mr. Saakashvili is still in power, isn’t he — laughing at Russia and building his democracy. Isn’t that interesting . . .

  7. Leonid V. Marchenko

    The true is that it’s Russia that can easyly exterminate NATO at will. Yes, this planet than will be not suiteable for life. But, russians have less to lose, than westerners…

    LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:

    Seems even YOU don’t read what you write. Wise decision, we must say. You just said Russia didn’t have that kind of power and didn’t need it, only needed to defend “natural riches” — the ones that give Russians $4/hour average wage and <60 lifespan.

  8. Leonid V. Marchenko

    Yes. He is in power. Sitting in his residens and chewing his dirty tie…

    LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:

    But powerful Putin wants him out! How can it be so?

  9. Leonid V. Marchenko

    We are not going into global social revolution anymore. We are capitalist now, as we were before 1917. But we do have nuclear potency to destoy NATO should you in NATO decide that Siberia is too fat for Russia…

    LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:

    “Capitalism” is just one of many words of whose meaning you are totally and utterly ignorant. Russia is no more capitalist than it is democratic.

  10. Dear Leonid V. Marchenko

    You are not a liar as LR breaks wind. There are many normally commentators even in this blogs. You and Misha and Ukrainian and some other show excellent understanding of situation. I agree with you about Georgian war. Obviously USA-trained army (no bad army) was crushed down during 4 days. French president entreated Russian colleague do not take Tbilisi. Taking Tbilisi also does not correspond with Russian interests so Russian army stopped. But undubiously that our army and fleet is excellent organism (with some problems, but any army in the world has some problems). And result of Georgian war shows that NATO are not able to crush Russia independently of LR and others bigots ravings.

  11. “The desire by the West to “reset” relations with Moscow, putting the Georgia issue aside, may be interpreted as a tacit recognition of Russia’s right to use military force”.

    You speak about it out of time. In fact the world already recognized of Russia’s right to use military force. It was happened during Georgian war and was fixed de jure by agreement of Medvedev-Sarkozy. USA avoided of some retaliatory actions and all in the world saw it. Silence of the other country is a recognition of Russian Near Abroad.

  12. Felgengauer is not a military expert but blockhead well-paid by westerns. If you heard his “predictions” about Georgian war from 08.08.08 you will understund that he is just uncompetent chatterbox. However some of westerns want to hear such “prognosis” about Russia death and so such whistler have a lot of many!

  13. Luis Dingley

    “Georgia will become a grave of Russian imperialism”

    Excellent! You confess that Georgians, as well as Afganians, Chechens, Albanians, Polands are only tools of Cold War against Russia. Obviously during 5-th days war Georgians does not want to be a tool of Cold War for you.

  14. Leonid, capitalism only works when there are private property rights, contract laws that don’t get capriciously violated and corruption is at a minimum. You have no middle class that won’t be wiped out real fast in this crisis. Any industry or private business can be hijacked by the state, just ask Khodorkovsky, the best and in his Yukos years the most ethical businessman Russia ever had.

    Wealth is concentrated in the hands of 1% of the population’s oligarch and siloviki clans. The assets are being devoured by the greedy in power. Sorry, you aren’t “capitalist now”. It’s a shallow veneer.

    As one of the lucky Russians with access to a computer and the internet it is too bad you don’t use that gift in a constructive way to help your fellow Russians out of poverty and towards a democratic society. Ignorance is inexcusable in the age of the internet. You understand neither capitalism nor a civil free society. Your little nationalist fascist mindframe is a symptom of all that is bad with Russia.

  15. “Russia is no more capitalist than it is democratic.”

    lol, I could say the same about the US. A central governemtn that nationalises banks or proping up failing institutions is hardly the actions of a free market or capitalism. Then of course there is GW and florida for democracy.

  16. Leonid V. Marchenko, your pathetic-commic army with its marauders, looters, rapists and “dedovshinas” are incapable of overrunning anything. Georgians stopped their fight, in order to save Tbilisi for the same fate which befell on Grozny in 2001, when your government unleashed genocidal bombardment of this ones beautiful city. If Georgians were ready to sacrifice Tbilisi as Maskhadov did with Grozny, than the guerrilla war would annihilate your gang of looters, which only managed to acquire trophy toilets from the residential buildings (bad news for you is that, the looted commodities and items of Georgia will not save the ailing Russian economy)

    So sit in your crumbling state and prey that the process of disintegration and downfall of your fascist state will not be as catastrophic as it might seem. Georgian nation existed for 6,000 years and the Georgian statehood has endured for 3,000. Hence, this Russian menace is just another chapter of its never ending struggle, which Georgia will definitely overcome, while its savage foe will diminish in the pages of history and its list of failed filthy empires.

  17. “That’s pretty big talk about a country one-tenth your size. Are you always so brave?”

    Georgia is actually only 69,700 km2 (including occupied territories) – Russia is 17,075,400 km2 .

    Russia is thus over 243 times bigger than Georgia.

  18. “But we do have nuclear potency to destoy NATO should you in NATO decide that Siberia is too fat for Russia…”

    Didn’t known PRC is now known as NATO.

    Ever heard of MAD? Do you know why there were no nuclear wars, or even wars at all between any nuclear powers?

  19. “The true is that it’s Russia that can easyly exterminate NATO at will. Yes, this planet than will be not suiteable for life. But, russians have less to lose, than westerners…”

    Ah, so now the Russians are threatening the all of humanity to do their bidding or they’ll suicide bomb the planet?

  20. We are capitalist now, as we were before 1917. But we do have nuclear potency to destoy NATO should you in NATO decide that Siberia is too fat for Russia…

    Russia, also known as Upper Volta with missiles.

    The problem that Kremlin rulers have today is that they were breeding “unkneeling Russians” like these two in hopes that they can control them. But with oil prices falling, ruble falling even faster – Sharikovs may become uncontrollable.

    Nobody cares when they bark at America (собака лает – ветер носит / the dog is barking, the wind is blowing). But these morons can easily start barking at Kremlin – and they may not stop at just barking.

  21. John Evans,

    “lol, I could say the same about the US. A central governemtn that nationalises banks or proping up failing institutions is hardly the actions of a free market or capitalism.”

    No kidding, why do you think that capitalists are pulling out of the market? ”

    “GW and florida, for democracy.”

    Why should we let someone steal an election just because he accuses someone of stealing an election?

  22. Leonid,

    “But, russians have less to lose, than westerners…”

    Why do you think that is?

    “Russia doesn’t want to change the world anymore.”

    So, you want to take your ball and go home. Why is your country still extorting money out of the whole of europe?

    Why do you personally threaten them with annihilation?

    You want to revert back to Leninism, do you even understand what comes after?

    Your posts, I would expect from a twelve year old. You are the problem with Russia.

  23. Well “I am Russian” & Leonid Marchenko have proved the fact that they are “ara adamiani” (I think Luis will know what that means)

    Georgian soldiers wanted to continue the fight last august by “going to the forests & mountains” which is the traditional Georgian term for guerilla (partisan) warefare. They were most upset that the government would not allow this because, as Luis pointed out, the government wanted to protect its people from the sot of genocide practiced in Chechnya by Russian soldiers.

    I still find it VERY funny that idiots like “I am Russian” and Leon are still crowing about defeating a US trained army. The fact is that the troops the US were training were those in IRAQ.
    The US only provided training in counter insurgency warfare to infantry. As yet they had NOT provided ANY training to the armoured forces, artillery, air defence, or airforce.
    Despite this the Georgians were able to destroy the South Ossetian militia (trained and equipped by Russia) in only 4 hours.
    Russia defeated a much smaller military, which was trained and equipped in the same way its own troops were. Russia enjoyed a manpower advantage in the fighting of over 10 to 1.
    Despite this, the Georgians managed to hold Russian troops at bay for 3 days of heavy fighting around Tskhinvali, somewhat derailing Russia’s plan to march all the way to Tbilisi and install a puppet government.
    The Russian military lost 12 aircraft to Georgian SAM’s & AAA. The Georgians lost 3 aircraft destroyed on the ground.
    Russian “official” losses have been ridiculed by the comittee of Russian soldiers mothers, who state the losses are around 10 times what has been officially stated.
    The Georgians have survived invasions by the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Turks, Mongols, and the previous 200 years of brutal Russian occupation under the Tsars & the Soviet Union. They will survive the souless neo soviet union of the Russian federation too.

    Next time you scum come in here, you will find that the whole male population will fight, regardless of what the government wants. They hate you. They will hate you forever.

    And hopefully you will be drafted and sent here so you and I can have a little “discussion”

  24. Georgia was not trained or equipped to conduct a war on that scale, the focus for training in Iraq was counterinsurgency.

    If Russia wants to wag its fallacy around, even with a soft president, it will be lopped off. More accurately because of a soft president.

    I have not seen a single military analyst that was impressed by Russia’s unprevoked naked agression. In fact, even the pro-russian commentators seem to be remarkably unimpressed, if they even commented at all.

  25. Heck, even the RIAN run an article titled “Russian Army’s weaknesses exposed during war in Georgia”:

    Although Russian and foreign UCAVs are regularly displayed at the annual MAKS international aerospace show in Zhukovsky near Moscow, including at the MAKS-2007 show, the Russian Army still lacks them because the national Defense Ministry decided to stop buying them in 2006.
    (…)
    Nor did they have any “smart” weapons for destroying Georgian artillery pieces and surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems. This is quite surprising, because such weapons have been repeatedly displayed at various exhibitions.
    (…)
    A similar situation holds in the sphere of radio-electronic warfare. It turns out that Russian electronic counter-measures (ECM) systems are unable to jam and suppress enemy SAMs and reconnaissance systems, radars and UHV communications and troop-control networks.
    (…)
    The Russian tank force has been suffering from major problems for a long time. The North Caucasian Military District, for instance, still operates T-72 main battle tanks without night sights. But not even the more sophisticated T-80-U and T-90 have such sights, either.
    Moreover, their explosive-reactive armor was not filled with explosives and could not therefore deflect high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) weapons.
    (…)
    Unlike most advanced foreign armies, including the Israeli Army, Russian tanks are not supported by attack helicopters. There is no regular radio communication between Russian tank, motorized-rifle, helicopter, attack-plane and tactical-bomber units either.

    http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080909/116657490.html

    And this was from the official news agency.

    It’s just not a modern army at all. They have mostly the same stuff as in the Soviet times, only not maintained since (there was a very high number of mechanical failures of armoured vehicles) and the crews and the pilots are not properly trained.

    Meanhwile even the Goergians had and used the UAVs (Israeli-made), night vision systems installed on the old Soviet tanks and aircraft enabled them to completely rout the militias and “peacekeepers” from the town and nearby villages during just one night of fighting (they fled to forests or in panic completely to North Ossetia), etc.

    The only good Russian units were the 2 semi-regular Chechen GRU battalions (they don’t exist anymore). The rest was clunky low-tech steamroller and even the overall Russian commander was wounded in a Georgian ambush (his armoured column had no air cover).

  26. To this day there are 3000 Georgian soliders missing. They have gone AWOL and are likely hiding in the mountains over a cold winter. Not much different from the 5000 AWOL US soldiers hiding in Canada I suppose.

    I laugh at Americans being critical of Russia talking about democracy, capitalism or the constitution all of which have been raped beyond recognition while completely ignoring the fact that one 21.9% of all under 18s in the US live below the poverty line. Maybe you should fix your own imperialist country before being critical of anyone else.

  27. There are no “3000 Georgian soliders” missing, unless this “solider” thing is something else than I think.

    There was a relatively high number of the servicemen missing (188 soldiers and 22 policemen in September), but mostly as in “unidentfied bodies”, because the Russian barbarians destroyed them as they were accustumed to in the 2nd Chechen (since 2002 it is state policy to destroy the bodies of enemies killed in combat, as well as those who died in captivity – covered even the corpse of President Maskhadov).

    The Georgian soldiers were thus left in the streets to be literally baken by the summer sun and eaten by animals, before hurled into mass graves, so they could be not immediatelly identified. Some bodies were certainly lost pernamently, unless would be exhumed someday. The effects:

    The Melia family, who are refugees from the 1992-3 war in Abkhazia, come to the cemetery to weep for their lost son, lieutenant Sergo Melia. Some of his comrades told them he had been killed. Later they saw Sergo’s body in footage shot in Tskhinvali and shown by the Russian channel NTV, but they have not been able to get hold of the body.

    The Melia family and parents of other missing soldiers are waiting impatiently for the results of the DNA tests, so that names can be put to the 53 unidentified bodies in the cemetery.
    http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=346852&apc_state=henh

  28. John Evans

    Thanks to you for your good post. I saw that I am not alone.

    LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:

    This is the stupidest comment you’ve ever left on this blog, and that’s saying something!

    Are you admitting that if you were alone, it would prove you wrong? If not, then not being alone is toally meaningless, unless you are admitting that being in the minority makes you wrong, which you have been and will be for your entire existence you ridiculous little microbe.

    Imbecile.

  29. About how the barbarians treated the bodies, and how they eventually put them into any graves (mass graves):

    As Russian and Ossetian forces entered Georgian villages in South Ossetia and the Gori district, they detained at least 159 people,[467] primarily ethnic Georgians as well as at least one Ossetian and one ethnic Russian married to an ethnic Georgian. Forty-five of the detained were women. At least 76 were age 60 or older, and at least 17 were age 80 or older.[468] There was one child, a boy, about eight years old. (…) Most detainees were held in the basement of the South Ossetian Ministry of Interior building in Tskhinvali for approximately two weeks in conditions that amounted to degrading treatment. Some of these detainees were forced to work clearing the Tskhinvali streets of decomposing bodies of Georgian soldiers, and debris. At least one man was executed while in Ossetian custody during his transfer to the Ministry of Interior. All of these actions are grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions and amount to war crimes.
    http://www.hrw.org/en/node/79681/section/29

    Yes, the barbarians used the civilian hostages used as slave labourers:

    Forced labor Ossetian forces forced many of the male detainees to work, which included recovering decomposing bodies from the streets of Tskhinvali, digging graves, and burying bodies, as well as clearing the streets of building debris from the hostilities.[515] Two detainees interviewed by Human Rights Watch stated that they volunteered to work on some days in order to be out of the overcrowded cells for a few hours. None of the workers received any compensation for this work. Under the Fourth Geneva Convention, adults (individuals age 18 or older) may be required to work as is necessary to maintain public utilities, and to meet needs of the army and humanitarian needs, such as activities related to feeding, sheltering, clothing, and health care of the civilian population. People must be appropriately compensated for their work, and there can be no obligation to work based on any form of discrimination. Unpaid or abusive forced labor, or work that amounts to partaking in military operations, is strictly prohibited.[516]

  30. Leonid V. Marchenko

    #

    Andrew // February 22, 2009 at 7:05 am

    Well “I am Russian” & Leonid Marchenko have proved the fact that they are “ara adamiani” (I think Luis will know what that means)

    Georgian soldiers wanted to continue the fight last august by “going to the forests & mountains” which is the traditional Georgian term for guerilla (partisan) warefare. They were most upset that the government would not allow this because, as Luis pointed out, the government wanted to protect its people from the sot of genocide practiced in Chechnya by Russian soldiers.

    I still find it VERY funny that idiots like “I am Russian” and Leon are still crowing about defeating a US trained army. The fact is that the troops the US were training were those in IRAQ.
    The US only provided training in counter insurgency warfare to infantry. As yet they had NOT provided ANY training to the armoured forces, artillery, air defence, or airforce.
    Despite this the Georgians were able to destroy the South Ossetian militia (trained and equipped by Russia) in only 4 hours.
    Russia defeated a much smaller military, which was trained and equipped in the same way its own troops were. Russia enjoyed a manpower advantage in the fighting of over 10 to 1.
    Despite this, the Georgians managed to hold Russian troops at bay for 3 days of heavy fighting around Tskhinvali, somewhat derailing Russia’s plan to march all the way to Tbilisi and install a puppet government.
    The Russian military lost 12 aircraft to Georgian SAM’s & AAA. The Georgians lost 3 aircraft destroyed on the ground.
    Russian “official” losses have been ridiculed by the comittee of Russian soldiers mothers, who state the losses are around 10 times what has been officially stated.
    The Georgians have survived invasions by the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Turks, Mongols, and the previous 200 years of brutal Russian occupation under the Tsars & the Soviet Union. They will survive the souless neo soviet union of the Russian federation too.

    Next time you scum come in here, you will find that the whole male population will fight, regardless of what the government wants. They hate you. They will hate you forever.

    And hopefully you will be drafted and sent here so you and I can have a little “discussion”

    Hahahaha…

    Almost ALL post is LIE!!!

    Where do you get information – from GeorgiaOnline?? It’s bad taste. Like getting information about Chechen War from KavkazCenter…

    Wanna believe that Georgia won and Russia lost? OK, go on…

    P.S. Andrew, litle fact may be not known to you…. Over 1000000 georgians live and work in Russia, the balk of them in Moscow… In no way they are going to come back to Georgia. Know why? They earn money they WILL NEVER earn back home, and without that money their relatives will starve to death. What a shame for “outpost of democrasy”….

  31. Dear Russians & Russophobes,

    Talking to most Russians about what is happening in the real world is like banging your head off a brick wall. Better avoided!

    You can talk to any American pro-Bush or anti, pro-Iraq or anti, & so on… You may strongly disagree, but you can still have a real discussion, one which is sane & rational.

    In my experience, having spent a lot of time in Russia, it is a pointless exercise with at least 90 or 95% of Russians.

    They do not understand, & will never understand, what is wrong with their country. Their only resort is to look for things to criticise elsewhere to take their minds off the awefullness of living there. Even better, is to find someone else to blame for the mess they have made of their own country. Let them live in piss in their own mess.

  32. Ooops, believe it or not that was a mere slip (Freudian or otherwise) in the last line. Could you please correct it to read ‘live inPEACE’ !!

  33. Well “Leonid V Marchenko, I live and work in Georgia. I am in a much better position to judge the opinion of Georgians than a pederast like you. “Almost ALL post is LIE!!!” well prove it you Russian bugger, oh thats right, you CAN NOT!!!

    I have many friends (including ethnic Russians & Ossetians) who served in the Georgian military during the last war. They wanted to continue fighting you then, and they will fight you now if your “ara adamiani” army comes in again. As will I.

    There were no lies in my post. The soldiers wanted to continue fighting. They hate Russia, and especially Putinist freaks like you.

    I also know several of the US military advisors here and am well aware of what they were teaching the Georgians (it is no secret you know)
    There is nobody starving here, unlike in rural Russia.

    As for the 1,ooo,ooo Georgians living in Russia, would these be the same people that Putin was illegally deporting in 2007-2008? The same people subjected to violent and racist attacks by verminous little scumbags like you?

    http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/09/30/russia-targets-georgians-expulsion

    http://www.tjetjenien.dk/baggrund/racism2.html

    http://www.rferl.org/content/Article/1076979.html

    One of my Uncles-in-law is a Russian who grew up in Georgia after ww2. He wants to return to Georgia because the situation is so grim in St.Petersburg (Racism, crime, corruption).

    BTW, Georgia online is an internet provider, not a news service. So obviously you are a misinformed Russian dickhead.

    And what is wrong with getting information on the Chechen war from Kavkazcenter.com, its a hell of a lot more reliable than Russian propaganda.

  34. By the way Leonid, my post was regarding the Georgian willingness to resist Russian agression.

    Your idiotic comment “Wanna believe that Georgia won and Russia lost? OK, go on…”

    Where did I say anything about them having won? I was pointing out that despite the odds (10-1) they resisted fairly well. Russian troops facing the same odds would have folded in minutes. Your Russian army has only ever been effective when it has had massive superiority in numbers. See WW2 for details.

    Man for man you are inferior material, always have been, always will.

  35. By the way Leonid, my post was regarding the Georgian willingness to resist Russian agression.

    Your comment “Wanna believe that Georgia won and Russia lost? OK, go on…”

    Where did I say anything about them having won? I was pointing out that despite the odds (10-1) they resisted fairly well. Russian troops facing the same odds would have folded in minutes. Your Russian army has only ever been effective when it has had massive superiority in numbers. See WW2 for details.

    Man for man you are inferior material, always have been, always will.

  36. By the way Leonid, my post was regarding the Georgian willingness to resist Russian agression.

    Your comment “Wanna believe that Georgia won and Russia lost? OK, go on…”

    Where did I say anything about them having won? I was pointing out that despite the odds (10-1) they resisted fairly well. Russian troops facing the same odds would have folded in minutes. Your Russian army has only ever been effective when it has had massive superiority in numbers. See WW2 for details.

    Man for man you are inferior material, always have been, always will.

  37. By the way Leonid, my post was regarding the Georgian willingness to resist Russian agression.

    Your comment “Wanna believe that Georgia won and Russia lost? OK, go on…”

    Where did I say anything about them having won? I was pointing out that despite the odds (10-1) they resisted fairly well. Russian troops facing the same odds would have folded in minutes. Your Russian army has only ever been effective when it has had massive superiority in numbers. See WW2 for details.

    Man for man you are inferior material, always have been, always will.

  38. By the way Leonid, my post was regarding the Georgian willingness to resist Russian agression.

    Your comment “Wanna believe that Georgia won and Russia lost? OK, go on…”

    Where did I say anything about them having won? I was pointing out that despite the odds (10-1) they resisted fairly well. Russian troops facing the same odds would have folded in minutes. Your Russian army has only ever been effective when it has had massive superiority in numbers. See WW2 for details.

    Man for man you are inferior soldiers, always have been, always will.

  39. By the way Leonid, my post was regarding the Georgian willingness to resist Russian agression.

    Your comment “Wanna believe that Georgia won and Russia lost? OK, go on…”

    Where did I say anything about them having won? I was pointing out that despite the odds (10-1) they resisted fairly well. Russian troops facing the same odds would have folded in minutes.

    Your Russian army has only ever been effective when it has had massive superiority in numbers. See WW2 for details.

  40. Speaking about the flood of the “By the way Leonid” messages (all let through by the moderation, which is quite funny), what’s up with comment system here? I often don’t see my comments after I post them, and then I’m left to wonder what’s going on and should I try again, rephrease it, or what.

  41. My congrats to you all on the Red/Soviet/Russian Army Day! It will always stay invincible, and it’s”noble and democratic”, but very foul-mouthed and cowardly provocators – enemies who I know will right now start calling me names like pederast, idiot and dickhead, will always be and remain screwed to death in the dustbin of history – be they French or German or Georgian or Turkish or American. They – you – all hate Russians not because we are poor, or stupid, or unhealthy, or corrupt or communist-minded or whatever (which we of course are), they have many many friends much worse than that, but for only one simple reason – because we have beaten them and will beat them every time they try any foolishness with us. And by and by, we will overcome the 20th century and become richer, and wiser, and healthier too. Long live Russia!

  42. While the Russian and Soviet Armies may have not won all the time, let us indeed this day congratulate them on its great victories, especially those over tyrants in the form of Napoleon Buonaparte and Adolf Hitler. May the Russian people triumph again over tyranny now that it has appeared in the form of Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.

  43. Well said Scott. Both my grandfathers-in-law served against the Nazis in the Red army.

    For all their racism against Caucasians and other subject states of the Russian/Soviet empire, our Russian “friends” tend to forget the sacrifices they made during the Great Patriotic war.

    Georgia had a pre war population of 4,000,000 and sent 770,000 men to the front of whom 300,000 were killed during the course of the war. The percentage of men sent by other ethnic minorities in the USSR, and the numbers lost, were similar. As a percentage of population lost the sacrifices of the ethnic minorities for victory were far in excess of those suffered by the Russians. There is still debate today as to whether this was deliberate policy on the part of the Russians.

    By the way “Bobby” the Russian army is not “invinceable”, they have lost their share of wars. The Crimea (1854-56), Russo-Japanese war (1904-1905), the 1st World War (Russia surrendered to Germany in late 1917), the Russo-Polish war of the 1920’s, the 1st Chechen war etc.

    Never the less, I salute all the Russians, Georgians, Ukrainians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Tajiks, Chechens, Ingush, Dagesh, Khazaks, Kirgyz, Turkomen (and all the other Soviet minorities who desipite being about 25% of the pre war soviet population made up over 40% of the Red armys manpower) who so massively contributed to the destruction of Nazi Germany in WW2

  44. Liam LONG is absolutely right – “Unkneeling Russian” and others cannot argue. And to argue with them is waste of time. However, they are (unfortunately) provide a good perspective.

    There has been a long debate among Russian intellectuals – whether Russians deserve the government that they’ve had (Czar, communists, Putin); or they have the government that is only in power due to violent repression but is generally despised by the people.

    Solzhenitsyn was arguing for the latter; our Sharikovs here certainly make a strong case for the former.

    Otherwise, they are only interesting exhibits for psychiatrists.

  45. So the Kremlin says there has been a build up of Georgian forces and the EU observers say there has not. Who do I believe: a group of observers from various countries put there to provide impartial information, or a party to the conflict with a reputation for lying, including specifically on Georgia?

    Joe Biden said that the US will not recognise the independence of South Ossetia or Abkhazia and “will not – will not – accept that any nation has a sphere of influence”. The question is will he do anything about it or just complain bitterly when the Russian tanks occupy Tblisi?

  46. George

    1) “…a group of observers from various countries” refused fix mass killing of Serbians and Gypies by gunman of UCK – army of drug-“government”. Then they to do nothing during 10 years and then agnize Kosovo drug-“independens”. So just such observers are liars unlike Russia which is only victim and had to defence.
    2) It is not very important what Joe Biden or anything else said because Russian`s sphere of influence have already existed. If Georgian government does not understand that fact so it is very feeble-minded and harmful to Georgia firstly.
    3)Russian tanks won`t occupy Tbilisi, but no thaks to USA or EU. Russia merely does not need in own Irak.

  47. By the way “I am Russian” you said “3)Russian tanks won`t occupy Tbilisi, but no thaks to USA or EU. Russia merely does not need in own Irak.”

    Now, did you not say earlier that Georgians did not want to fight their Russian brothers??
    I do wish you would make up your mind, or are you getting caught out by all your lies and propaganda?

    By the way, when your Russian army comes into Georgia again, we will fight you.

  48. “I’m Russian”
    I agree with you on your last sentence. The question is does your government agree with you?”

  49. Georg-Andrew

    Yes Putin more clever than Bush. But Andrew it does not mean that Georgians hate Russians or inversely. Just any occupation of another country always leads to result as USA have in Irak or Kosovo or Afganistan. Russia has not any significant interest in Georgia and Russia has any intention to create a new USSR. Russia does not long for to be colonial empire as USA. The fact that Russian tanks stopped in front of Tbilisi indicate only peaceafullness and sreasonableness of Russian government and Russian people!
    But Andrew we won`t permit anybody or anyountry to make “sanitary cordon” around our borders. And we will not allow kill our citizens!
    Your later quote: “By the way, when your Russian army comes into Georgia again, we will fight you” is very ridiculous after results of 5-days war!

  50. There were three reasons why Putin stopped in Georgia.

    1) The population in Georgia turned out en masse in Tblisi. The last thing that Russia needed in the losing PR war was a Tianamien Square type incident – especially during the Beijing Olympics…

    2) The Europeans got serious. Sarkozy actually read the fine print on the deal he signed and had a “Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me” moment. Merkel was hardening too, which only left Berlusclowni in support of Russia.

    3) US Liberals didn’t do as expected and unilaterally declare support for Russia. This was a large miscalculation on Putin’s part, and considering that the #1 financier of American Liberalism is George Soros – certainly not a big fan of Putin – one that he shouldn’t have made. By day 4 and 5, even the Huffington Post was regularly excoriating Russia. When Obama started sounding like McCain, even Putin knew that it was time to call the tanks back.

  51. Well “I am Russian”, I live in Georgia, I am married to a Georgian, and I my friends are Georgian. I also speak Georgian so I have a pretty good idea of what they feel about Russians. And the simple fact is, they hate you.

    The only reason the Georgian soldiers did not resist further is because they followed orders from the government to cease fire. They were not at all happy about doing this, but followed the legal order from the government, and all the soldiers I have talked to say next time Russia attacks they will resist.

  52. As for this stinking pile of manure flowing from your mouth “Russia has not any significant interest in Georgia and Russia has any intention to create a new USSR. Russia does not long for to be colonial empire as USA. The fact that Russian tanks stopped in front of Tbilisi indicate only peaceafullness and sreasonableness of Russian government and Russian people!”

    Lets see, Russia has instigated, facilitated, and helped to carry out ethnic cleansing in Abkhazia & South Ossetia, including rapes, murders, looting, mass deportations of ethnic Georgians, destruction of entire villages. Very peaceful!!
    Russia has several strategic interests in Georgia, one is blocking or controlling all energy corridors through Georgia, contolling the black sea coast all the way down to the Turkish border and having a continuous link all the way to Armenia would also cut off Azerbaijahn and the central asian republics from their only real non Russian link to the sea. So Russia does have big interests in once again subjigating Georgia.

    As for this piece “But Andrew we won`t permit anybody or anyountry to make “sanitary cordon” around our borders. And we will not allow kill our citizens!”

    And the Georgians should allow Russians, Ossetians and Abkhaz to kill their citizens?
    Remember it was the South Ossetians (with the support of Russian “peacekeepers”) who fired the first shots on the 1st of August killing 6 Georgians.

  53. Andrew

    “The only reason the Georgian soldiers did not resist further is because they followed orders from the government to cease fire. They were not at all happy about doing this, but followed the legal order from the government, and all the soldiers I have talked to say next time Russia attacks they will resist”.

    Ah Andrew don`t be moron! If you georgian inhabitant so you know how Saak “commanded” during 5-days war. President who escaped more quickly than good doe, president who chew his tie. I still could understand it if it was not happend under the camera! Perhaps Saak lost his self-control, but what did Saak safeguards or imagemakers do? I answer: they escaped with Saak, they thought only to run more quickly! It was a shame in all the world. No one managed “Georgian army” in 10.08.08-13.10.08 which just escaped without any plans and oter intensions.

  54. Andrew,

    Russian TV fooled even Father of the Nation Putin, when he told with straight face how Fox News anchor was coughing over Osetian girl and her aunt’s talking. It would take 5 minutes to find out that the cough was added during “creative translation” by Russian TV itself.

    No wonder our “Unkneeling Russian” gets all his news from ORT – and if you don’t, then you are the moron.

    Actually, when he was talking about President who escaped more quickly than good doe (whatever good doe means), I thought for a second that he was talking about Kokoity, who was in Abkhazia in the middle of Battle for Tskhinval. But hey – Unkneeling Russian doesn’t disappoint!

  55. Felix

    It is not very important for me where S-Ossetia president was, but I (and all of the world did not see how he chew his tie or escaped). I repeat SAAk was shown by world TV programs (no only ORT) that fact is a prove of absolutely panic and lack of ability georgians structures (include presid. safeguard and newsmakers). No one did something. All of them escaped and chew their ties!

  56. Well said Felix, at least Saakashvili (for all his faults) was actually in Tbilisi during the conflict (I saw him at the protest meeting).
    I wonder where “I am Russia (moron)” gets the idea he ran away, oh thats right, from invented Russian fairy stories in the Russian programs for (mental) children.
    As you rightly pointed out certainly Russia’s puppet Kokoity did run away!!

  57. Saak escaped in Gory it was not Russian propaganda it was true! You just always try to pass desirable for reality.

  58. John Evans,

    “To this day there are 3000 Georgian soliders missing. They have gone AWOL and are likely hiding in the mountains over a cold winter. Not much different from the 5000 AWOL US soldiers hiding in Canada I suppose.”

    Can you reference these numbers, and then can you put them in context. For example, what percentage of each nationalized organizations desertion rates.

    “I laugh at Americans being critical of Russia talking about democracy, capitalism or the constitution all of which have been raped beyond recognition while completely ignoring the fact that one 21.9% of all under 18s in the US live below the poverty line. Maybe you should fix your own imperialist country before being critical of anyone else.”

    Again, do you have any references. I personally can save millions of people from povery, simply by perception. You can condemn them to poverty by yours.

    If I was poor, a capitalist society would fill my needs of consumer-based supply side logistics for profit. The squeeky wheel gets the grease.

    A socialist society no longer needs me, they are burdened by my constant demands, and will recieve nothing for their effort. Therefore I am expendable. The squeeky wheel gets the rope.

    I will explain further if you do not understand, which I am counting on.

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