EDITORIAL
Estonia Whips Russian Butt
Reader “Robert” directs us to a BBC web page which compares the performance of the nations in post-Soviet space on economics, health and democracy. It provides three charts which reveal shocking facts about the failure of Putin’s resource-rich Russia when compared with tiny Estonia, the leader of the group.
First comes economics, which reveals not one but three stunning insights about Russia:
The chart shows Estonia has consistently out-performed Putin’s Russia. It also shows that even at Russia’s lowest point, 1998, it was still well above the regional average, meaning that when Russians complain they needed to impose dictatorship because of their unusual suffering they are simply lying. Many countries were worse off than Russia at that time, but they didn’t turn to the secret police. And finally, it clearly shows that Russia’s rebound begin in 1998, two years before Putin took the reins of power as president, under Yeltsin.
Chart number two shows that Russian life expectancy lags far behind the group average, and that compared to Estonians Russians hardly live at all.
Finally, there is the chart for democracy, and here again Russia’s performance is truly abysmal.
It’s wonderfully ironic that Estonia is so far out ahead of Russia, since Russia has been doing all it can to destroy Estonia, including a brutal and internationally famous wave of cyber attacks. Through it all, Estonia has developed a fully-realized and civilized democracy, spitting in the eye of its giant neighbor and it threats, showing the people of Russia that it can be done. Without oil resources, Estonia has proven to Russia that it can build a vibrant economy that puts Russia’s to shame.
Estonia has won.
La Russophobe 
Very funny games with graphs:) From what I see here (may I just comment charts, ok?)
1) Steep growth in GDP per capita in Estonia is very much natural, if you consider dwindling population – a country of 1,5 M lost 200K in 10 years, starting from 1990. Just for a second, 15% population loss during 10 first years of independence?
2) Life expectancy growth of Russians during Putin years is something fantastic, fastest in Europe.
3) Same true about fertility. Now much better in Russia than in most EU states.
4) Leadership changes in Russia since 1990 = Leadership changes in the States since 1990 = Ukraine = Georgia. Funny how all named are much less democratic, compared to Estonia, right, LR?:)))))
LOL no fertility in Russia is not better than most former Russian imperial possessions, Georgia has a higher rate.
Life expectancy in Russia is far lower than in Georgia, explain that one Dtard.
Sure Georgia is slightly less democratic than Estonia, but far more democratic than Russia.
As for why Canada is not a petro state, simple, it’s economy is not reliant on Oil exports, and as for per capita, well it has a far lower population than Russia.
It is also a democracy, and not a mafia state, unlike Russia.
Really Dtard, did you suffer from birth defects or what?
“Georgia has a higher rate.”
You lied once again.
Here’s the latest data available:
2010 List by the CIA World Factbook
188 Russia 1.54
200 Georgia 1.44
You’re a liar.
Next try.
OK Dtard, I was comparing births to deaths. My mistake in not explaining total fertility and demographic growth rates to you in simple terms, maybe you would understand if it was written in crayon?
BTW figures for 2011 (are according to the CIA World Factbook)
Births per 1000 popn.
173 Russia 11.05
178 Georgia 10.73
Deaths per 1000 popn.
5 Russia 16.04
56 Georgia 9.92
So sub simian, Russia has 11.05 births to 16.04 deaths per 1000 people, while Georgia has 10.73 births to 9.92 deaths per 1000 people.
See Dtard, the Georgians have pretty much the same birth rate, but nearly half the death rate……
The Georgians are still in a far better position than you Dtard.
“Georgia has a higher [fertility] rate.”
“OK Dtard, I was comparing births to deaths.”
And you lie again.
Fertility rate has nothing in common with mortality rate. There’s nothing to explain there.
I’m tired of talking to a liar. Live in a world you want to live in, mishist.
I am tired of talking to a retarded racist Russian pig.
But never mind, at least Russians are dying faster than they can breed.
Please explain why Russians die so fast? Much faster than they give birth, and why the opposite is true for Georgia?
Come on Dtard, why is life so horrible in Putinist Russia that Russian men die so fast and so young?
Really you are pathetic.
Andrew, you lied three times above.
Next time you want to say something, please check the facts.
Dtard, I did not lie.
More Georgians are being born than die, more Russians are dying than being born.
In that respect Georgia’s birth rate is far better than Russia’s.
Now on to your lies about history, economics, and your constant racism towards non Slavs.
You are pathetic.
Dear mishist,
1) birth rate is self-explanatory, it is namely the *birth rate*.
2) there’s no need to lie it is measured compared to the “death rate”/”mortality” or whatever.
3) Russian birth rate is much higher than that of Georgians – 1 more child is born in each 10 families.
10% is not “much higher” but the death rate is certainly much higher in Russia, and the life expectancy for men in Russia has dropped back to 59 LOL
Silly, 10% difference in fertility rate is a *huge* difference, because normally it never goes below 1,1-1,2. Every woman wants a child. It’s just in Georgia they are afraid having more than one.
Dtard, please explain the death rate in Russia?
It is nearly 100% greater than in Georgia.
Is life so terrible in Russia, or is it just that Russian men are inferior?
Andrew, don’t change the topic, dear.
Do you recognize you lied when you said Georgia has a higher fertility than Russia?
Andrew: “More Georgians are being born than die, more Russians are dying than being born.”
This mishist does not even know that 1,44 fertility rate is far below 2,1-2,14 that are sufficient to substitute natural mortality.
How boring.
Yes, you don’t like comparing performance of Estonia to Russia, do you dear. You want to talk about something else, anything else. That’s what we thought, why we wrote this post.
By the way, Russia ranks NUMBER ONE HUNDRED THIRTY FIVE IN THE WORLD in life expectancy. Chew on that, idiot. Continue justifying Russian failure instead of reforming and Russia will go the way of the USSR. That’s what you want, right?
Well, he even wants as to believe Estonia is not “in Europe” ;)
But of course there are other European countries where the life expectancy growth was better than Russia’s really poor of only 1 year in whole a decade of the very high (even highest-ever) oil prices – and this was from a very low level of only 65 years (to, oh-my, 66 years, which is apparently something amazing and “fantastic”). 2009 in Ukraine: 69 years. In Poland: 75 years. In Germany: 79 years. In France: 81 years.
And, somehow, those accursed imperialist-capitalist Americans, including the oppressed Negro masses, are now excepted to live 12 years longer than the glorious invincible Russian people under Colonel Putin.
“he even wants as to believe Estonia is not “in Europe””
You lie. I never said this.
You’re a liar.
And you’re pretty madl I advice you to get a chill pill (and to not mix it with vodka).
Bobby, it’s characteristic how LR and two of her supporters responded my posts – and all three lied in their responses.
No, but “it’s characteristic” how you and Putin together (a dynamic duo) brought down this horrible Yelstin and saved Mother Russia.
You were also helped by Ramzan Kadyrov, the Hero of Russia, who gave you one of his golden guns. But mostly it was just Putin and you.
1) Andrew said Georgia has a higher fertility rate – lie.
2) You said I claimed Estonia is not in Europe – funny lie.
3) LR said Russia is #135 in the world by thelife expectancy – lie.
The thing is, you live in a world of lies.
And none of you admitted being wrong.
Excuse me idiot, where did I state you claimed Estonia was not in Europe.
You lie as usual.
As for Russia being 135th in the world for life expectancy:
2005-2010
UN ENT NAME AVG MEN WOMEN
108 Georgia 71.0 67.1 74.8
135 Russia 65.5 61.83 72.6
2011 (ESTIMATES)
UN ENT NAME AVG MEN WOMEN
44 62 Georgia 76.72 73.41 80.45
131 161 Russia 66.03 59.33 73.14
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
UN represents rank by UN representation, ENT represents rank including territories, unrecognized countries etc.
You LIE Dtard, and once again Georgia kicks Russian arse.
Also note the life expectancy for Russian men is dropping again.
Good riddance too.
You are a pathetic little retarded pygmy.
Andrew: “Excuse me idiot, where did I state you claimed Estonia was not in Europe.”
Dear Georgian author:))
When you post you should think first.
Just reread the previous three posts, really.
P.S. As to the following words in your post – I really got not interested when I reached the second sentence:)))
Actually, it was Robert who said you don’t want to believe Estonia is part of Europe, tell me, are you dyslexic as well as retarded?
Andrew: “Actually, it was Robert who said you don’t want to believe Estonia is part of Europe”
Actually it was Bobby that I responded to:))))))
So, in your own words, Randy Andy:
“Tell me, are you dyslexic as well as retarded?”:)))
But it’s ok for a michist to be dyslexic, really:)) why would you need to talk, when misha does?:))
Actually it was Robert I was responding to, saying “you” to him.
So, now, in your own words, Andrew, “tell me, are you dyslexic as well as retarded?”
You lied once again. It is the year 2011 now. Next try.
P.S. All those who really wants to compare comparable countries to estimate the possible ways of development of ex-USSR states, are welcome to compare Russia to Ukraine, and Georgia with Belarus.
None of these countries is a tiny Baltic state member of the EU, so no disastrous population losses, and no construction sector pumped with Swedish banks money.
Georgia: about 1/3 of the territory is in the hands of rebels and Russian forces, with most of the population of the Russian-occupied areas living as refugees elsewhere in Georgia.
There was also a civil war in the capital and elsewhere in the 1990s, there’s no oil and gas, and the country is democratic only since the early 2010s.
Still, the country is much more free and less corrupt than Russia, and the people live much longer than in Russia, and longer than they lived in the Soviet times too (unlike in Russia). It’s actually roughly the same all the time – above 70 years, always rising but not much – at least never falling (despite all the wars and refugee crises).
Oh, and about health and your: “Life expectancy growth of Russians during Putin years is something fantastic, fastest in Europe” – I think you meant the second Yeltsin term before 1998, when there was indeed a “fantastic” rise of 4 years (peaking at 67). Putin’s era was actually a long slightly-falling stagnation at 65 years, then a rise of just 2 years (until slightly above Yelstin’s high of 67 years, but still 2 years below this of 1990), before just another dive. And so in 2009 it was only 66 years in Russia as compared to Georgia’s 71 – with Estonia’s average being 73 (7 years more than in Russia), without falls since the early 1990s (their lowest was Russia’s current “fantastic” of 66 in 1994), including the rise of of 3 years from 70 in 2000-2009 (speaking about Putin’s era, when Russia’s rise was only 2 years at the peak, before the another fall in 2008 – still “fastest in Europe”, you say?).
But that’s not all, because in 1990 Tajiks lived shorther than the Russians, but now they live longer. Tajikistan. Same about Moldova. And Azarbaijan, despite “primary health care, medical facilities and training are poor” comment by the BBC – because Russia is even worse than that (Russian health catastrophe being blamed on “increased stress levels, drug use, HIV/AIDs, suicide rates and alcoholism among the general population” as well as the war in Chechnya, but Chechnya is a only a tiny spot on the map of Russia with not even 1% of the total population and yet there was a civil war in all of Tajikstan with not such consequences). And Uzbekistan, where “post-Soviet exodus of qualified doctors and nurses for a better standard of living in countries like Russia took its toll on overall health care” – and yet, it was much better than in Russia, without any plunge. And Kyrgyzstan, where “as with all the Central Asian countries since the collapse of communism, there has been a continual a “brain drain” of doctors and nurses seeking better paid jobs in Kazakhstan and Russia” – and yet, there was only a rise, unlike in Russia. They all clearly lacked of “something fantastic”. Maybe it’s really about Putin?
“I think you meant the second Yeltsin term before 1998, when there was indeed a “fantastic” rise of 4 years”
You lie. Late Yeltsin time saw life expectancy at
1999: “Among the most serious findings is a four year drop in life expectancy among Russian men since 1980, from 62 years to 58.”
1999: “transition to market economies [in the region] is the biggest … killer we have seen in the 20th century, if you take out famines and wars. The sudden shock and what it did to the system … has effectively meant that five million lives have been lost in the 1990s”
2010: “Russian life expectancy has again begun to rise. Between 2005—2010 the male life expectancy in Russia rose by over four years, increasing the overall life expectancy by nearly 4 years to 68.98.[53]”
Google these quotes yourself, as I can not post three links due to some site engine limitations.
No, I won’t “Google these quotes myself”, thank you. In 1994 it was nearly 65 years, and in 1998 it was over 67 years, and you can check yourself: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14489883 (Source: Gapminder/World Bank)
Gapminder Foundation is Swedish, unlike “Manfred Steifschwanz “.
Btw Sweden, life expectancy there is 81 years.
And Manfred Steifschwanz will NEVER live till the age of 81, right?
“Manfred Steifschwanz” is just a fictional character.
Correct as far as the name itself is concerned, but how could possibly a fictional character submit non-random posts in the form of thought-out replies on a blog? Western brainrot never ceases to astonish.
Your replies are not thought out, they are dogmatic socialist BS…..
Still submitted by a fictional character, Randy Andy?
No, you are just a moron floppy.
Don’t be so demanding, pretty please. Not everybody can be as astute a person as that tie-eating guy down in the Caucasus.
Besides: Is Yankistan self-sufficient with regard to the Third World? No stealing involved there?
Who give a f#$%^k whether kleine schwaine russian baboo lives or dies
You seem to, love.
kleine russian baboon don’t flatter yourself, relax and have a bite of ‘Belka i Strelka’ that russian delicacy – the dog food – you know, the stable diet of the russian ‘army’…
You has interesting and solid content. You really deserve a big hug right now. I’ve been really distracted, to say the least, by all of the reminders. I’m sure your page will touch all who read it. Where should I discover even more on this topic? Just what I was looking for.
But, Robert, you lie. Indirectly, but you do.
Just because you name Yeltsin and imply his second term brought high life expectancy. And in 1998, the crisis in Russian economy – that happened during the second Yeltsin’s term, and a direct result of Yeltsin policies – was a reason of life expectancy falling so much.
That is why it was Putin’s administration, and his policies, of course, that were so good for Russian life expectancy. Putin became president in 2000.
The numbers are below.
1991 68,9
1998 67,1
1999 65,9
2000 65,3
2009 68,7
Cool, if you say so, maybe “Yeltsin’s policies” was really just a pure hell for Russia, worse than the War Communism, whatever. But maybe now also tell me about the Russian national rebellion against all this oppression (besides 1993, when the “Heroes of Russia” of Vityaz had to just gun down a crowd at Ostankino to pacify all uppity proles everywhere, maybe about what happened in, say, this 1998), and don’t be shy about the stories of your or your father’s personal heroics of the patriotic resistance. And don’t forget to tell me about how all of Yeltsin’s thieving and murdering goons (such as Putin) are now in prison or dead, or something.
You’re a worthless slave. And I don’t even pity you. Some Russians don’t reserve what they get from their masters, but you deserve everything.
Now you can resume crying about how bad it was to be robbed by Putin in the 1990s and then chant how good was to be robbed by Putin in the 2000s. It’s quite amusing, for me.
Bobby, FT and NYT never writing about anti-Yeltsin protests didn’t mean there were no protests. In fact, that decade was full of protest. What’s more, 200-300 000 Russians left Russia a year. Economics was falling apart, demographics were worse than ever – it was almost a second WWII for the demographics of Russia.
Still you in the West adore Yeltsin – and respect him much more than Putin. The question is – what for, Bobby?
Oh, surely there were protests. But I asked what you (or your father, or mother) were doing to end the regime of Yeltsin, Putin, and thousands of other thieves and killers. You know, even voting against them, just once, and this is completely safe, would be quite enough. If you did even this.
If you think I “adore Yeltsin”, maybe you should read what I write when you are more sober, Dima.
And as of your “ever”, I still think the demographic were pretty bad in Russia in the late 1910s and early 1920s, with all this warfare stuff, mass terror, starvation, and also Spanish Flu too (but this one was global). Economics were also “falling apart” pretty bad – to the point of nothing at all (everything destroyed), or at least before the NEP. Somehow, “still you in the East adore Lenin – and respect him much more than Gorbachev. The question is – what for, Dima?”
How comes you know for sure I, or my father and mother never did anything to help my country? I think that’s either very rude, or just stupid to say so, sorry…
Sober, I drink alcohol 3-4 times a year – and that means a glass of wine, usually. How often do you drink, huh?
As to my “ever” – there was no big wars, revolutions, disasters. Nobody just wanted children. Just like they don’t want to have children right now in Ukraine and Georgia.
So why won’t you come out and tell me of your (alleged) exploits to help your counrty? As I already asked you. Repeatedly. Did you EVEN vote against them? 1996? 2000? You see I don’t even ask about your part in strikes, or protests, or street clashes, or armed rebellion.
So you have no excuse of being drunk. If you really care, I drink beer occasionally (socially).
Speaking of drinking (vodka), or not drinking, it’s probably the main reason why the Russia’s Muslims live much longer than the Russian average (or even the world average). And this despite the various catastrophes: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/04/us-russia-chechnya-woman-idUSTRE79340420111004 – and they (included in your “nobody”) actually are and were having children, all the time. You might like or not, it’s the way it is.
Bobby, why don’t we stay within the same topic and you just agree that you lied when you implied Yeltsin years we a time of high fertility rates and that Putin’s administration inherited this from Yeltsin?
Дмитрий: Что касается Робертa, Уолл-стрит, Мëрдок и Берлускони объяснили ему все.
Никогда не сомневаться в их словах!
Ну интересно же – так сказать, экскурсия в мир психических заболеваний:)))
Ладно, Манфред, спокойной ночи, а то у нас тут три уже, а я только от родителей приехал.
C коммунистическим приветом;)
But hey, okay, let’s say it was really “the biggest … killer we have seen in the 20th century, if you take out famines and wars”, this thing (worse than Stalin’s collectivization and terror, for example).
So, what was your Hero-Comrade Lt. Col. Putin doing all the time before Yeltsin made him his chosen successor, after serving in the Soviet organisation responsible for the death of millions of innocent Russians earlier in the 20th century? Was he in the opposition of any kind? Potesting, throwing stones at the OMON? Even defending the White House from tanks in 1993, maybe using his trusty handgun that he used to wave at the unarmed East German democracy protestors in defense of his KGB office? Did he resign from his position in protest of anything? (I won’t even ask what you were doing back then, apparently not much as the rest of Russians.)
No, he was he one of the top officials of this system, corrupt to the max (stealing directly from the hungry Russians, no less – the “Putin case” was about the theft of the funds supposedly to buy food for the people of St Pete, you know?). And even when his henchmen were clandestinely planting bombs in Moscow, it was not to undermine the system. Do you think he built his (not-so) secret palace for you, or for all the homeless people of Moscow? Why, please continue to support him and his gang in exchange of some bullshit, just keep goose-stepping for your National Leader to your doom.
Bobby, do you think Yuschenko threw stones? Saakashvili did? I mean,
Bobby, why do you respond with all this BS to a very clear fact: life expectancy in Russia during Putin years was raising much faster than life expectancy in other European countries.
Yushchenko and Saakashvili? Oh, so you were an opposition leader against Yeltsin, at helm of a crowd of people in the Red Square? Well, maybe I was wrong about you, after all. Don’t be shy and tell me more.
So pray tell mehow a former attorney-general become a leader of opposition? How a former central bank director accuse the ex-president of wasting too much money? At least a city mayor assistant just physically can not be involved in corruption on such a level as these two were.
So, why don’t we just stop playing cunning, and say: they were all three bureaucrats very loyal to the regimes, it’s just 1 of them remained loyal, and two were bought by Soros.
Can’t really see any freedom fighters here.
Dmitry:
Fighting for wealthy Anglo-American business interests = FREEDOM FIGHTING PAR EXCELLENCE according to Western, ahem, “moral standards”.
/Manfred
Manfred, it’s funny how none of these supporters of the LaRussophobe wants to continue discussing one theme.
See, first we started with comparisons with Estonia – when I showed Estonia lost huge share of population during “independence”, they switched to fertility of Georgia.
When I showed they lie, and fertility in Georgia (and, Estonia, of course) is lower, they switched to claiming Putin wasn’t as good as Yeltsin for Russian life expectancy.
When I showed this is a lie – they chose to speak about the career of Putin, and they lied again.
Then they switched to records of Georgian presidents, to “goose stepping” Putin, to Russians not protesting against Yeltsin, whatever:)))
I mean, ain’t it funny to speak to the LR and her nice team here?:)))
Guys, we were talking about comparisons with neighbours from the beginning:)))))
Oh Soros, how scary. And they obviously stole all the money, because that’s what all officials do everywhere, and not just in Russia.
But anyway, what you/your father were doing back then? Don’t be shy, you’re anonymous here, you can always tell a lie, or maybe even tell truth (unlikely).
Guantánamo or Gulag would do Soros good. Maybe you too. If sent to the Gulag, he’d become a full-time martyr of the bourgeoisie as well. Well, why not?
And don’t forget: Auschwitz. After all, he barely missed a trip there.
I know you’re just trolling, and nothing you write should be taken seriously by anyone. But maybe you should rather say “Chernokozovo” instead of “Guantánamo”, if you want to drop some scary names while trying to outrage people.
OK, that’s the last I answered to you. I’d ban you long time ago if it was my blog.
And Bob, dear, let’s not begrudge Soros his fair share of water-boarding, napalm, and depleted uranium either. Western “culture” suits Westerners best, right?
Bobby, compare Russia to Ukraine. Ukraine had no wars, and Ukraine had a “democratic” orange revolution.
Languages are close, both peoples are orthodox christians, and Ukraine was a huge, perfectly developed (industially, I think, more advanced than Russia) republic in the USSR. With a perfect climate for agriculture.
Compare, please. Life expectancy, fertility, population natural growth, level of salaries, GDP, GDP growth, whatever.
Okay. Life expectancy in Ukraine is 2 years longer than in Russia (even if still below the ex-USSR average), and it’s 9 places higher in press freedom (not good, but better).
And GDP per capita was lower also in 1990.
Life expectancy – really glad for Ukrainians.
Next number, please? Economy? Demographics? Anything?
P.S. Please, statistics, and no ratings:) Georgia is a pure paradise, if read ratings:)))
As I said, in 1990 the “perfectly developed” Ukraine had GDP per capita of only 2/3 of Russia’s the same year.
And as of demographic trends these there were rather bad in 1933, “a perfect climate for agriculture” or not. Because of the leadership in Moscow and their local collaborators, as enforced by the genocidal organization of Putin (and his father).
Had only 2/3 of Russian GDP per capita back in 1990? So how about now, when they have about 1/5 or even 1/7?
How about 10 or 15% of the population Ukraine lost during 20 years of “independence”?
Do you really understand what you say, dear?
Would you wish such things for Poland? Like, lose 10 million people, and then fall three times in GDP?
Is this a payment high enough for a chance to make a man like Bandera a hero of the nation?
Now? Below 1/2 (that is much more than “about 1/5 or even 1/7”), amnd it’s because they couldn’t take adventage of the high oil prices. (BBC: “Russia’s economic power lies in its natural resources – namely oil and gas.”) The deeply flawed Ukraine is not an example for Russia to look to, anyway. It’s rather, you know, “eSStonia”.
And regarding your question, how about the large part of the population that Russia lost (emigration, dying, few births among non-Muslims) during 20 years of “independence” (gangster rule), despite such a good starting position, “dear”? And what did you do about it? (I’ve asked already, apparently you did nothing, which is symptomatic.) And why it actually did NOT happen in Poland (and also why the Polish economy did not suffer even in the immediate aftermath of the 2008 global crisis)? And how many dump hospitals for the large numbers of Russian TB and AIDS victims could have been built, or orphanages made less hellish so some of the so many Russian street children would chose to live there after all, for the cost of Putin’s private palace and Ramzan Kadyrov’s collection of luxury cars and race horses? “Is this a payment high enough for a chance to make a man like Kadyrov a hero of the nation?” That’s some good questions for you, “dear”. But you won’t answer them.
About hospitals: I meant repaired, not built. How about just providing heating, sewage system and running water (maybe even, gasp, hot water) to some hospital so maybe less people would be dying there? Would it be really less important than another racing horse for Kadyrov in Dubai?
Are you REALLY supporting such system? Would you even fight in its defense? Do you think of yourself as a patriot? Seriously?
Bobby, BTW, just in case you know, can you compare Communist-ruled Poland to Capitalist-ruled Poland in terms of fertility rates?
Care to explain the following chart, please?
The thing is, you lost your chance to raise your population 15% during those 20 years of independence. It’s just those babies never were born.
During 20 years before the USSR fell apart, your population raised by 6 million.
Six million more Polish people during 20 years of Communist rule, 1970-1990.
During Capitalist rule, your population has been dwindling all the time since 1991.
Polish babies are needed no more.
When Putin said the USSR collapse was “a tragedy”, he was also speaking of demographics.
Surprising to know you Poles find it rather “fortunate” than a “tragedy”, that 6 million Poles were never born as a result of “democratization”.
Bobby, but both Ukraine and Georgia took exactly that one little “democratic” way that the West was promoting in the ex-USSR region.
Now their GDP per capital is at the levels normal for Sub-Saharan Africa.
Their fertility rates – we’ve been discussing these above – they are among the lowest in Europe.
Just like Estonia, both lost huge share of population.
None of this happened in Russia during Putin’s years.
Really, can’t you see it’s *good* for Russia, and it’s bad for Georgia andUkraine that they chose the wrong way? Wrong for their population? Never mind that Western medias love them and would continue to love them till the countries fall apart?
No, Poland, East Germany, Czech Republic & Slovakia, Hungary, etc. “took exactly that one little “democratic” way that the West was promoting”, while most of the former Soviet Union either got hijacked by corrupt cliques of former Soviet appartchiks and siloviki, or just continued to be ruled by the old communist “elites” without any personal changes at the top at all.
What is “good for Russia”? Sponsorship of Kadyrov’s, Kokoity’s and other non-Russian (claimed to be “Russian”, but this is a lie) gangs by the Russia’s ruling Chekist mafia that is enjoying the high oil prices and continuing to rob Russia and bring their loot abroad, while the scale of corruption (even this illegal, in your own official statistics – including in police and military) and beaurocracy is much higher than in the 1990s?
If you wanted what you call “that one little “democratic” way”, you’d make your president Sergei Kovalev or some other Soviet dissident – just like Walesa in Poland or Havel in the CzR. And if you wanted a “strongman” with the Soviet past, but who is not corrupt and not connected with the Cheka terror organisation, you would always take someone like General Lebed. It’s only your fault whom you elected. In normal countries, someone with the past in the communist terror structures could never be elected or appointed at all into any public office, either legally barred or just forced to disclose his “security” connections so no one would vote for him – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lustration#Examples – and these copycat services in the USSR’s puppet countries had much less blood on their hand then the Cheka.
Be sure, little Bobby, me and my parents did quite a lot to form Russia’s future.
As to why we in Russia did not use the “little petrodemocracy way” – can’t you see that all those countries that you named are ruled by large business? Not even originating from domestic markets? Can’t you see these businesses control the media? And decide who’s democratic?
Bobby, I’m really bored to discuss it for the 100th time – just compare how Ukraine and Belarus are doing in terms of demography and economy, and understand why even an autocracy like in Belarus was better for the population than external administration like in Latvia or Ukraine and Georgia.
Dear Clueless Dmitry,
Why is it that you are “often wrong and never in doubt” ?
Most Ukrainians are Christians – either Orthodox or Greek Catholic.
Meanwhile, “Russia” has their Moscow KGB “church” with their Anti-Christ Kirill as the head.
You being Catholic makes not the nation Greek Catholic, really. Orthodox faith is predominant in Ukraine.
14.9% – Ukrainian Orthodox Church – Kiev Patriarchate;
10.9% – Ukrainian Orthodox Church Moscow Patriarchate;
5.3% – Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (Uniate);
1.0% Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church.
Other religions less than 1%.
So,
1) Your “Most Ukrainians are Christians” sounds like a lie. According to the same survey. “62.5 percent stated they are not religious or did not clearly identified their church allegiance”
2) Ukraine, of course, is an Orthodox nation. Orthodox Christianity, not just “Christianity”, as you want to believe, is predominant religion in Ukraine.
PPS:) On “oil reserves” – Russia exports much less oil per capita than Canada, and – twice – less than Netherlands. So why don’t we call alll three “petrostates”:)) All numbers are there in the Wp.
If you say so. (And natural gas.)
But, just what else Russia exports? As compared with the mentioned Canada (where agricultural, energy, lumber and mining combined being only about 58% of total exports, as compared with 38% in machinery and manufactures)? Or the Netherlands (third in the world in agricultural exports)?
I mean, besides cheap weapons designed (or even manufactured) in the Soviet Union. Or mail-order brides, and refugees.
1) Let me tell you what Canada, the US, Britain, France and other G7s export. It’s debt. Other than that. they just exchange – Canada sends timber to the States, States return cars, Britain sells them two some equipment, France feeds them cheese.
But it’s BRIC countries who have money. One must be blind to not see how, say, Greece and Italy do everything they can to be bailed out by China now – until it’s too late. And Britain’s debt is *400%* of it’s GDP.
2) Russia has a positive (much more positive than you can imagine) trade balance. We have no debts, and each Russian, including newborn babies, owns USD 4K in the gold & currency reserve fund.
This actually means that whatever we export, we produce most of what we consume here domestically. We do not spend that much on *import*. As a result, we have no need to be bailed out.
So, you are self-sufficient. Great, you have achieved the principal objective set by the North Korean dictators. I hope you remember this next time Russia crawls on her hands a knees begging the United States and other hated Western enemies for food assistance. We’ll tell you to use your 4K in the gold and currency to buy food.
RV,
Russian starvation is a part of Russian “greatness”. Millions of people starved to death in Russia the Soviet times, in the man-made famines, during the war (including in the unoccupied areas that were not even besieged), and of course in the GULag, but they are not really remembered, while Stalin is a “great Russian” (pretty good for a Georgian-Ossetian, but the Russians love the foreign oppressors if they only speak their language) and the end of the USSR and independence for Russia was a greatest catastrophe of the century (allegedly).
Even certain Vidkun Quisling helped to save many Russians (and others) while delivering humanitarian aid in the early 1920s, and married a Russian.
I remember when Russia was gripped by the anti-Western mass hysteria in conncection with Kosovo War in the early 1999. It was then, when, much more quietly, the first aid transports with the American meat began arriving in Russia, following the Russian economic crash of 1998 and the bad harvest the same year. The only other destinations of such transports were some African third-world countries, which is pretty fitting (“Upper Volta with missiles”, “Nigeria with snow”, etc).
Funny how you use phrases which you know nothing about, that were invented for this exact goal, and that nobody in good mental condition would now say:)
Yeah, for all the Homoeroticus Soveticus BS of Dtard and Manfred Floppy, they forget that it was the (hated) west that fed (and feeds) Russians.
Absolutely correct, Randy Andy! If you only knew how misty-eyed the average Russian becomes when I tell him or her that I’m a very proud compatriot of Anders Åslund.
On a serious note: It’s the dumbed-down, self-opinioned, and arrogant Western petty bourgeoisie that is fed — body and soul alike — by Western imperialism’s global tyranny. That’s precisely why you literally identify yourselves with it, resorting to the pronoun “we”.
Sorry: Western parasites don’t feed anybody.
Hello Manfriend,
Those westerners are such parasites. You want food, they have it. Technology, the good kind, not that Russian junk, they have it. Autos, good military equipment, airliners, publishing, cellphones, ditto.
Its those wonderful Russian lads in the employ of the Russian military who in reward for the protection of peoples and lands in the Caucasus are amply rewarded with kindnesses in the form of TV sets, food, jewelry, boats, cars. Everyone wants to see the Russian army in their neighborhood.
GM
Economart, your post relates to the year 1970. It’s 2011 outside in the street now.
The West is a place where up to 1 million of people chose to join demonstrations against the elites, haven’t you checked the news lately?
All these “Autos, good military equipment, airliners, publishing, cellphones” are produced by BRIC countries and for BRIC countries – the Western markets never rose after they fell in 2008.
And all that the West “produces” – produced – is debt.
Because if Britain has a budget deficit of 3% GDP, and a GDP yearly growth of 0,2%, this means the country exported at least 3,2% GDP-worth debt this year, can’t you understand?
I couldn’t do much worse shopping here. XD.
RV, do you really believe I was talking about “self-sufficiency, N.Korean style”? BTW, learn the word – it’s called Juche.
I was talking about buying one Chinese TV set each 4 years, instead of 4 Chinese TV sets each year. About buying 4 T-shirts per year – not per month. About not having half of the nation with an excessive body mass.
Do you call it Juche? I’d rather call it “not pigging out”.
P.S. “crawls on her hands a knees begging the United States”. That’s why you are so disgusting – you have so much hatred inside, and still want to look respectable, dear, in all your hypocrisy.
Well, I didn’t know the word “Juche” but I have to defer to you on this. You surely would know better what terms your friends use.
And I don’t know why you call me disgusting. What did I say that isn’t true? Did Russia ask for food assistance as recently as 1998 or 1999? Or not? Surely, she was not too proud then, was she? Did she get it? Or not? The facts seem to be inconvenient for you and undermine your “pride.” But since you are so sensitive, fine. I withdraw the word “beg” and replace it with the word “ask.” Happy now?
And now you are saying “we produce most of what we consume here domestically,” which is obviously not true. There are many reports that Moscow, at least, is overflowing with imported goods.
RV, you are right about 1998. And that’s what people like about Putin – he madeit sure nobody needs this assistance any more.
“Moscow, at least, is overflowing with imported goods” – care to name any? Let me say, Chinese consumer electronics are sold all over the world, and there are no other really significant players in the industry. Any other spheres where imports are a major part of the market? Food? Pharmaceuticals? Construction services? Transportation? Machinery? Anything? I’m not saying there are no such markets, but do you really know what you say? Can you name these?
Cars Dtard, Moscow is overflowing with European and US cars, then there is the food in the supermarkets….
My, Andrew, don’t start it again. Even LR now knows the difference between Russian-made cars and US-made cars. All these WVs, Citroens and BMWs are made in Russia. So don’t be stupid again.
No, most of them are not Dtard.
Russians still prefer to import cars rather than buy anything locally made, and by locally made I mean from parts manufactured in Russia,even preferring 2nd hand Japanese models over anything made in Russia.
The makes you mention are assembled from kits made of parts manufactured in Germany and France, and most of the complex assembly is already done outside Russia (Kaliningrad to be precise in most cases) just the final putting together is done in Russia, the low skilled part really.
You are the stupid one sub-simian.
If you had a brain cell it would be lonely
First thing, Kaliningrad is not outside Russia, stupid:) Second, most of these cars are made in Kaluga and St.Petersburg car makes clusters.
Third is, you don’t have the slightest idea of why we are not in the WTO yet – exactly because nobody wants to let go the “industrial assembly” of cars:
“производители будут иметь право в течение трех лет лишь 5% от общего выпуска собирать методом крупноузловой сборки (SKD)”
Уровень локализации для существующих производств:
* пятый год – 55%,
* шестой – не менее 60%.
“создать или модернизировать существующий в РФ научно-исследовательский и опытно-конструкторский центр и организовать штамповочное производство”
“За ужесточение режима промсборки выступил Владимир Путин”
But they’ll have to let go anyway:)
If you can translate, translate. If you can not, just know this doesn’t make you less a cute dummy, mishist.
Hugs and kisses:)
Excuse me Dtard, I never said Kaliningrad was “outside Russia”, however it only became “part of Russia” in 1946 after massive ethnic cleansing and mass murder.
Originally named Königsberg in German, the town was founded in 1255 and was part of Prussia and then of Germany until 1945, but was largely destroyed during World War II. Its ruins were occupied by the Soviet Army in 1945 and its German population forced out. It was renamed Kaliningrad in 1946 in honor of Mikhail Kalinin.
How Russian…….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad
Andrew: “most of the complex assembly is already done outside Russia (Kaliningrad to be precise in most cases)”
Andrew: “Excuse me Dtard, I never said Kaliningrad was “outside Russia””
Me: really, what’s the name of the weed you’re smoking in the free Georgia these days?:)))
So sub simian, where did I say Kaliningrad was outside Russia in terms of cars being produced there?
I said “it used to be part of Germany prior to mass murder and ethnic cleansing in 1945-46” but it is part of Russia today.
You really are a liar Dtard.
Andy: “complex assembly is already done outside Russia (Kaliningrad to be precise in most cases)”
Andy: “I never said Kaliningrad was “outside Russia”
Andy: “where did I say Kaliningrad was outside Russia in terms of cars being produced there?”
Andy, you’re so funny:))))))))))))
Outside Russia “in terms of cars produced there”:)))))
Oh, but you made my morning:)))
Is that why I can buy a Russian whore so cheaply with US dollars?
Ahem, the US produces several times more food than Russia, provides billions in international aid to starving countries, something that Russia has never really done, Russia more prefers to steal from others.
Marxism is when the state comes, shoots you, and takes your cow to feed “the proletariat”, hence the immense failure of Soviet agriculture.
Modern Russian agriculture is a joke, all that land and such pathetic production…..and it is the “black earth” regions I am talking about.
“the US produces several times more food than Russia” –
Um, even a mishist could understand it’s better to compare Russia to Canada here… Climate is rather important, when you discuss food production.
I bet Canada produces more food, too
Why don’t we let our mishist compare the two himself, and see the result, um?
Yes, Canada is a major grain exporter.
By the way Dtard, I know you have a subhuman level of intelligence, but much of Russia is actually excellent land for agriculture, particularly grain production.
It’s just that, as in all other industries, Russians are incompetent, inefficient, and produce low quality products…..
Sounds interesting. So when is Invincible MIsha gonna smash those incredibly inferior Russians in one fell swoop? As soon as LR joins the ranks? Off you go!
Who says he is invincible? I certainly don’t think so.
Really floppy, considering that you are a “true believer” in the most foul ideology to ever be put into practice, that killed over 140,000,000 people in political repression in the 20th century, anything you say can be safely ignored as rubbish.
And Russian industry is a joke.
““true believer” in the most foul ideology to ever be put into practice, that killed over 140,000,000 people”
Sources, dear irresponsible liar?
Listen brainless one, why are you too stupid to understand that Communism was the greatest evil to ever be inflicted on mankind?
Because you were a beneficiary?
For the mass murder committed by Russian communists:
Chapter 1. 61,911,000 Victims: Utopianism Empowered 1917 to 1987
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM
For the mass murder committed by the Chinese communists:
Now, I have to change all the world democide totals that populate my websites, blogs, and publications. The total for the communist democide before and after Mao took over the mainland is thus 3,446,000 + 35,226,000 = 76,692,000, or to round off, 77,000,000 murdered.
This exceeds the 61,911,000 murdered by the Soviet Union 1917-1987, with Hitler far behind at 20,946,000 wiped out 1933-1945.
The remainder were killed by the Russian/Chinese controlled puppet regimes set up by the Communists in Eastern Europe, Asia, and parts of Africa.
And Dtard, you are also a supporter of the evil that was the USSR, and the evil that is Putin’s Russia.
You are scum, filth, and a lying little shite
I know you’re not Georgian, a=or at least not above 15. Because I seriously doubt there’s one adult in the whole Eurasia that would believe in these numbers.
“61,911,000 Victims” –
do you understand that the whole population of the Soviet Union *before* the war, in June 1941, was 196,716,000?
One of the three was killed?
You’re mad…
Dtard, now I know you have a subhuman level of intelligence, you can’t even read can you f*ckwit?
Like where it says 61,911,000 Victims: Utopianism Empowered 1917 to 1987
Of course, a little pervert like you probably revels in those deaths.
Let me guess, granddaddy was a Cheka?
BTW sub simian here are the breakdowns
Chapter 2. 3,284,000 Victims: The Civil War Period 1917 to 1922
Chapter 3. 2,200,000 Victims: The NEP Period 1923-1928
Chapter 4. 11,440,000 Victims: The Collectivization Period 1928-1935
Chapter 5. 4,345,000 Victims: The Great Terror Period 1935-1938
Chapter 6. 5,104,000 Victims: Pre-World War II Period 1939 to June, 1941
Chapter 7. 13,053,000 Victims: World War II Period June, 1941 to 1945
Chapter 8. 15,613,000 Victims: Post-War and Stalin’s Twilight Period 1945-1953
Chapter 9. 6,872,000 Victims: Post-Stalin Period 1954-1987
Oh Andy, It’s just too boring to dig into again. Sure you lie, as well as your author does, but if you can’t see how Soviet population grew during the 70 years of Soviet rule, then it’s absolutely ok for you to say whatever you want.
Sure here in Russia we are more than happy the little Sakartvelo is now on her own.
kleine russian baboon, manfred; Georgia doesn’t want to ‘smash’ russia; Georgia wants russia out of its territory. A per russian proverb ‘govna ne nada trogat, potomu shto vanayet.
Sunshine, Georgia is outof Russian history and memory for the last 20 years.
If you project the Georgian demographic trends for these years into the future, you’ll see that soon Georgia is going to be out of history at all.
Georgia, population 1990 – 5 439 000
Georgia, population 2009 – 4 411 000
Let’s count, 20% during 20 years?
Cool.
Jews in Georgia, 1990: 24,795; Greeks: 100,324; Ukrainians: 52,443
Jews in Georgia, 2002: 2,333; Greeks: 15,166; Ukrainians: 7,039
Wow, going to be a “multiethnic paradise for Georgians”?:))
Dwindling population, minorities running from thecountry? Surely it’s democratic, and surely successful – as long as Georgia is an enemy of Russia.
Hmmm, most of the Greeks were living in Abkhazia, and were forced to leave by the Apsua separatists and their Russian masters.
The Greeks evacuated them in “Operation Golden Fleece” once it became clear that the Russians and separatists were going to murder them as they were already doing to the Georgians.
Most Jews went to Israel, given the Russian sponsored civil war in the country at the time, who can blame them. Many have returned, by 2004 there were 13,000, more now.
Umm, let’s *imagine* that all these minorities – Jews, Ukrainians, Russians, Greeks – were living *only* in Abkhazia (which is a lie, of course).
So, two questions:
1) Why they all lived in Abkhazia, and did not go to Tbilisi or other regions in Soviet times?
2) Why they all left the free Georgia and ran to Russia & Israel during the war? Why none of them wished to go to Tbiliso?
But both question are rhetorical.
We all actually know why none of these minorities wanted “The Sakartvelo for Kartuli” – silly translated by the West as “Georgia for Georgians”.
Dude, are you thick or what??
I was talking about the Greeks, most of whom did live in Abkhazia, they were “Pontic Greeks”, and they ran to Greece, not to Russia.
The overwhelming majority of Jews that left Georgia left when it was still part of the USSR, they were fleeing Russian anti-semitism.
Most Russian Jews have also gone to Israel, maybe it’s because of “Russia for Russians”?
@Pontic Greeks
First of all, they were deported by Stalin to Asia in 1949.
But of course, “Stalin was a Georgian!” (Ossetian) Yeah. A one that ruled Moscow and from Moscow, and the Russians were and are okay with him, and today tend to think of him as a “great Russian”, for some reason. (Like their love of foreign oppressors.)
Oh Dima, so you’re interested in those Georgian Greeks, you say? OK, read on!
Most Greeks in the new Soviet Union lived around the Black Sea. Settlers who concentrated around the north shores of the Sea of Azov (the “Mariupol Greeks”) had a dialect and culture of their own; they were the descendants of an older farming community in Crimea which Catherine the Great had moved into southern Russia. But the majority was of Pontic origin. The Greeks lived in the port cities, especially Odessa, Rostov and Sevastopol, in the fertile Kuban steppes, in the coastal towns and villages of Georgia and Abkhazia and in the hills off central Georgia.
The first Soviet years were tolerable, even encouraging. The Greeks rapidly recovered from the devastations of the Civil War. They kept most of their farms, and there was a vigorous cultural revival: a reform of the Greek alphabet; a wealth of bold and interesting Greek books, journals and newspapers in the kiosks; a state-assisted network of Greek-language education. On the Kuban coast and in some districts of Ukraine, Greek autonomous regions were established.
But with the collectivisation of farming after 1928, and Stalin’s usurpation of supreme power, the Greeks were transformed almost overnight from beneficiaries of the Revolution to victims. Everything about them was now construed as counter-revolutionary: their tradition of free enterprise, their links with the “imperialist” world outside and especially with Athens (many of them held Greek passports), their independent culture. The Greeks in south Russia and Ukraine strongly resisted the loss of their farms, and thousands were arrested. As the “Great Purges” developed in the 1930s, their cultural and political leaders were charged with treachery or Trotskyism and murdered. The Greek schools were closed and Greek literature destroyed. In south Russia, political persecution rapidly turned into ethnic pogroms; entire Greek communities were arrested and deported. Dr. Effie Voutira, who has done much research among the Pontic Greeks in the ex-Soviet Union, estimates that as many as 170,000 Greeks were expelled to Siberia and Central Asia after 1936.
But this had only been a prelude. The full impact of state terror was turned against the Greeks in the aftermath of the Second World War. Like the Crimean Tartars, the Chechens and the Volga Germans, the Greeks of the Soviet Union became a condemned nationality and were banished.
The 70,000 Crimean Greeks, almost all Pontic by descent, went first. Then came the Greeks of Kuban and south Russia. Finally, on the night of 14/15 June 1949, a single immense operation planned in secret for many months rounded up almost the entire Greek population of the Caucasus.
The settlements in Abkhazia and along the Georgian coast down to the Turkish frontier were the principal target. About 100,000 people were seized. Their villages were surrounded in darkness by NKVD special troops, and they were given only a few hours to pack. Many of them perished on the sealed trains, and when they arrived at their destination-usually weeks later-they were deliberately dispersed: scattered among small Moslem communities and kolkhoz cotton farms across the Central Asian plains.
Why was this done? There is no clear answer, even today. Stalin’s fear of war in the Black Sea, his memories of the 1919 Intervention, Georgian intrigue and envy or the possession of Greek passports by so many Pontic Greeks-all these have been put forward as explanations. Perhaps the real provocation was that the Greeks were a family. Their human links were stronger than the artificial bonds of totalitarian politics. They were residents of the Soviet Union, but their crime was to be “cosmopolitan”; to be members of a wider world of trade, gossip, marriages and family funerals which carried on its activities across and beyond the Soviet frontiers.
But Black Sea life without Greeks-the local politicians and factory owners, the grocers and cafe proprietors, the journalists and bank-clerks and grain-dealers and ship’s captains-was a thin shadow of what it had once been. The Greeks had been envied by their neighbours. Now they were painfully missed…
After Stalin’s death in 1953, the deported Greeks who had acquired Soviet nationality were allowed to return from Central Asia. (Most went back to Georgia, although their houses and farms had been sold off or confiscated after 1949.) The rest, those who held Greek papers issued by a country which they had never seen, remained in exile. At this stage, it seems, their concept of their status and of their relationship to Greece began to change. They had accepted their first great uprooting, the flight from the Turks in Pontos, as an emigration, a move to new shores on the same sea. But Stalin’s banishment turned the Pontic Greeks, in their own estimation, into refugees.
Dr. Effie Voutira has pointed out that the modern use of the word “refugee”-especially in English-predicates the existence of a nation-state. By the mid-twentieth century, everyone was assumed to be a member of a national community. Everyone was at home somewhere, each with his or her passport. The great and growing number of human beings who had become internationally “homeless”-the refugees-were therefore people whose primary plight was that they had been separated from their rightful nation-state. This is why we almost always add a national adjective to the term, as in “Bosnian/Polish/Zairean refugee.” The refugee is somebody who once had a nation, but lost it.
This is an odd, inadequate way of designating the millions of displaced individuals and families carried back and forth on the tides of the world, but the displaced themselves are increasingly inclined to adopt it-precisely because “refugee” implies membership of a state community. This was not always so. The Gaelic-speaking Highlanders who were removed from their townships and transported to Canada considered themselves emigrants, rather than refugees, although their departure (the “Highland Clearances”) was not usually voluntary. The Pontic Greeks who fled from Trebizond to run beach cafes at Sukhum, or print newspapers in Odessa, or plant vineyards in Georgia, grieved for their lost homes but prepared to put down fresh roots. But when Stalin snatched them away from the Black Sea and duped them in the steppes of Central Asia, threatening their whole community with physical and cultural extinction, they could no longer consider themselves emigrants. This time, they had been not merely transplanted but condemned.
In Central Asia, the Pontic Greeks faced two extreme alternatives. One was to assimilate to Soviet society, and to seek to climb the Party ladder-which many Greeks did. The other was to reject the whole new environment. In the end, the choice was effaced. The Communist Party and then the Soviet Union capsized and sank, leaving climbers and rejectors together in the same leaky boat: all were now non-Kazakh or non-Uzbek “colonialists” in newly independent Moslem states. The “natives,” who understandably drew no distinction between outsiders who had arrived in their land as conquerors, imperial settlers or banished victims, contemplated the farms and bureaucratic posts occupied by Russians, Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars, Greeks, Volga Germans, Chechens and Meshketian Turks, and began to close in. By 1990, ethnic rioting between locals and incomers was spreading across Central Asian republics. Now, with fresh desperation, the Pontic Greeks appealed to “their nation:” Greece.
In the first years after the Russian Revolution there had been some outflow to Greece, and more Greeks contrived to escape in 1939-9, after the Great Purges. But then the Soviet external frontiers closed tightly. They did not open again for almost fifty years, when Mikhail Gorbachev began to lift the ban on mass emigration.
At that time, in the mid-1980s, probably around 500,000 Greeks were living in the Soviet Union, almost all of them of Pontic origin. By the end of the decade, they were arriving in Greece at the rate of 20,000 a year, and by the mid-1990s, the Greek villages in Central Asia were practically empty. Some, a minority, went back to the Black Sea coasts in south Russia or Georgia. There was even some optimistic talk of reviving the old idea of a Greek autonomous region in the Kuban; a congress of Greek delegates was held at Gelendzhik, near Novorossisk, in 1991, and a Greek-language newspaper (Pontos) appeared in the little port of Anapa. But the Caucasus grew much less attractive for Greek exiles in the next few years. Civil war in Georgia was followed by an even more violent struggle as Abkhazia, historically one of the centers of Greek settlement, fought Georgia for its own independence. Most Pontic Greeks headed “home”-to Athens or Salonica.
Bobby, but you totally miss the point. It’s not about revolution and Anapa. It’s about Georgia, 1990 and on:
Jews in Georgia, 1990: 24,795; Greeks: 100,324; Ukrainians: 52,443
Jews in Georgia, 2002: 2,333; Greeks: 15,166; Ukrainians: 7,039
Same true about most other minorities, including Russians, Armenians – whatever minority ethnicity you take, every one fled from “Sakartvelo for Kartuli”.
Now tell me how Jews were afraid of “Russian antisemitism” and Greeks were afraid of Russian “antigreeceanism” in Sakartvelo in 1993 or 1998, i’ve got some pop corn with me and ready to listen:))))
Russia is also a major grain exporter. Much more “major” than Canada, mishist.
2005-6 season, wheat exports:
# China … 96.2 million tonnes (15.4% of global wheat production)
# India … 72 million (11.5%)
# United States … 57.1 million (9.1%)
# Russia … 45.5 million (7.3%)
# France … 36.9 million (5.9%)
# Canada … 25.5 million (4.1%)
Again, population of Russia is two and a half times less than that of the US. And the climate in Russia is much more harsh.
2008 estimate:
European Union 150.0
China (Mainland) 112.5
India 78.4
United States of America 68.0
Russian Federation 63.8
You’re an idiot, mishist, sorry.
dymasz, dymasz, Egypt and India returned to russia millions of tonnes of contaminated grain that was purchased by Egypt and India as a fodder for their livestock, not even for human consumption…
High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ac1314fa-a653-11e0-ae9c-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz1Zdf5vy1o
Russian exporters forced to drop grain prices
By Isabel Gorst in Moscow
Traders are struggling to make any sales of Russian grain in spite of the country lifting its controversial export ban.
The ban, which was lifted on Friday after lasting almost a year and causing turmoil in global agricultural markets, has made buyers wary of the political risks of importing Russian grain, traders said.
“There is practically no demand for Russian grain,” said Arkady Zlochevsky, the president of the Russian Grain Union.
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/ac1314fa-a653-11e0-ae9c-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1ZdefvQuN
And Russian wheat is frequently contaminated, just ask the Egyptians:
Ahmed al-Sandiyouni had accused Gawdat al-Malt, the director of Egypt’s Central Auditing Organization (CAO), of turning a blind eye to the importation of thousands of tons of carcinogenic wheat over the last decade, most of it from Russia.
http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/472176
Face it Dtard, Russian grown is like Russian made, rubbish only fit for burning.
Andy, so one more silly post from you.
First you claim “the US produces several times more food than Russia”, “Russian agriculture is a joke, all that land and such pathetic production”
Now that you see that Russian grain exports are “several times” higher than the USian are per capita, you claim – “yes, they export much but – nobody wants Russian grain”:)))))
So how come then in 2011 WSJ wrote about Russian ban on wheat exports: “The ban sent shockwaves through international markets and propelled wheat prices to highs not seen since the 2007-08 food crisis.”
How can Russian decision send “shockwaves”, if Russian exports are insignificant, silly?:)
And so on, and so on. It’s quite boring to discuss anything serious with you…
And Canadian exports are many times higher per capita than Russian.
Whats your point sub-simian, I mean I know you are stupid but really.
Besides, Russian grain is having a hard time being sold, nobody likes an unreliable supplier who also tends to supply lethally contaminated goods.
Andy, who exports more wheat per capita, Russia or the US?
The EU or Russia?
Why do you lie so stubbornly as if you were prohibited to say a single word of truth by authorities?
Excuse me sub simian, I never said that Russian exports were “insignificant” I did say they are not as great as you like to think.
The world is currently suffering from a relative shortage of foodstuffs, hence the high prices, and therefore any disruption to supply, no matter how insignificant, causes shockwaves.
But while we are on the subject of “per capita”, Canada produces many times more per capita than Russia.
In addition, the US produces more per capita than Russia, but most of it goes to the domestic market (the US actually has a domestic market unlike Russia).
Andrew: “Modern Russian agriculture is a joke, all that land and such pathetic production…..and it is the “black earth” regions I am talking about.”
Andrew: “I never said that Russian exports were “insignificant”
Um, honey, “significantly pathetic”?:)))))))))
You can’t even imagine how cute you are:)))) Stay so please-please-please!))))
^^
Dmitry, our lead mishist Randy Andy has given rise to a most accurate phrase in depicting our beloved LR blog at large: “significantly pathetic”. As I pointed out in another thread a few days ago, the dolts which form the LR team are too sloppy to care about such a thing as consistency. They take to whatever anti-Russian excrement they happen to come across even if contradicts other equally preposterous LR bluster outright.
But, then again, that’s exactly what Western imbecility and depravity brings in its train. Societies that have outlived their historical usefulness just can’t feel the foul smell of their very own decay.
They are more cute than cat-girls:) Japanese schoolgirls would really love people like Andy, to the “mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mi” level.
:)))
But sub simian, Canada is a major producer per head of population.
25.5 million tonnes and a population of 33.3 million for Canada
45.5 million tonnes and a population of 142.9 million for Russia.
Canada produces far more per capita than Russia.
Also when you look at wheat exports:
Rank Country Exports (1000 MT)
1 United States 29,937.00
2 Australia 17,000.00
3 Russian Federation 16,000.00
4 Canada 15,000.00
http://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?commodity=wheat&graph=exports
So Canada is a major producer, no.4 in the world, and per capita far more successful than Russia.
You are such a retarded Putinist waste of space Dtard, you are lucky that you don’t have to think about breathing or you would have a problem.
Barley Exports by Country in 1000 MT
Rank Country Exports (1000 MT)
1 Australia 4,700.00
2 Ukraine 3,600.00
3 Argentina 1,900.00
4 EU-27 1,500.00
5 Russian Federation 1,000.00
6 Canada 900.00
http://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?commodity=barley&graph=exports
You forgot to mention “#5”. Which has an advanced economy, fertile lands, and 500M population.
1 United States 29,937.00
2 Australia 17,000.00
3 Russian Federation 16,000.00
4 Canada 15,000.00
5 EU-27 15,000.00
So tell me dear, how can Russian agriculture be so advanced as to export more wheat per capita than the US does? How come US exports so little? Crisis? Nobody wants USian grains? Farmers are working poorly?
What’s the reason that the US – a country with huge masses of perfect arable lands – exports so little wheat? Why the EU does not export much?
All because you seem to have not been producing anything of real lately, mostly debt, right?
P.S. “You” above was not relating to you, Georgian Andrew. We all know what Georgia produces and exports – words:)
Because the average American can afford to eat properly?
And the average Russian can’t.
Sure thing, with bread at about 60 cents, nobody can afford it:))))) Keep on lying, you’re cool at showing everybody what a mishist is:)))
Really Dtard?
Considering that Russians outside Moscow/St. Petersburg are actually worse off than in Yeltsins day thanks to Putins policies, and that the inflation of food prices is quite significant in Russia….
BTW, when did Russians start using “cents” as everyone knows there are only Roubles now, no Kopeks……
Russia’s rich double their wealth, but poor were better off in 1990s
Fall of Soviet Union brought wealth only to society’s elite, researchers say
Tom Parfitt
guardian.co.uk, Monday 11 April 2011 21.01 BST
The richest slice of Russian society has doubled its wealth in the past 20 years, while almost two-thirds of the population is no better off and the poor are barely half as wealthy as they were when the Soviet Union fell, according to researchers.
Experts at Moscow’s Higher School of Economics (HSE) found that the purchasing power of the average Russian has grown by 45% since the early 1990s, but income disparity is widening by the year.
The report reinforces a widely held view that oligarchs got rich quick by snapping up the country’s choicest assets in the turbulent post-Soviet period.
Yevgeny Yasin, scientific director of HSE and a former economics minister, said: “The principal issue for Russia’s economy and society today is the level of inequality. Only the best-off 20% of the population is successfully participating in the rise in prosperity which became possible as the result of creating a market economy.”
Food is slightly cheaper relative to income and simple pleasures have become more accessible. The average adult buys more vehicles and televisions and can afford more alcohol and cigarettes than at the beginning of the 1990s. “Drinking, smoking and burning around in a car have become a lot cheaper,” the report found.
But most Russians can only stare in envy at the super-wealthy with their Bentleys and dachas. According to the report, income inequality between the mid-1980s and the mid-2000s has increased eight times more than in Hungary, and five times more than in the Czech Republic.
The huge gap between rich and poor “largely negates the economic and social achievements of recent years,” the HSE report said.
Yasin added that the study indicated there were “two Russias”. The wealthiest fifth of the population received a pay cheque equivalent to 198% of its value in 1991, while the poorest fifth made only 55% in real terms. In total, 60% of the population has the same real income or less than the average 20 years ago.
“Many things are required to change this,” said Vladimir Gimpelson, one of the authors.
“We need more political and market competition, enforcement of property rights, rule of law, systemic change in labour market institutions and stronger social protection for the needy.”.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/11/russia-rich-richer-poor-poorer
Stop, cutie, stop changing the subject:))))
Do you recognize you lied calling Russian agriculture “pathetic”,
and that in reality Russia exports much more wheat than the US per capita?
BTW that’s funny, but looks like the major Georgian export is not “wine and tangerines”, but scrap metal bound for Turkey to be melted and used in manufacturing.
Georgia now living on selling old Soviet machinery for scrap metal.
Another major Georgian export is labor migrants – up to 20% of Georgian citizens of working age staying abroad, mostly in Russia.
Wise economic policy of the Georgian government, in it’s zenith, I’d say:)
Well retard, lets look at the facts.
Georgia’s population is now growing, with births outnumbering deaths, and a large increase in life expectancy.
Russia’s population is collapsing, with deaths massively outnumbering births, and a return to a decrease in life expectance for men to below 60 years.
This points to a natural conclusion that life in Russia is pretty crappy.
BTW, Russian agriculture is pathetic, nobody wants tainted Russian grain.
And as for “per capita” what you don’t seem to grasp is that US food production is massively superior in volume to Russia, of a higher quality, and feeds more people by far.
Also not counted in the export figures is the huge amount of agricultural products provided in aid by the US to foreign countries, these are counted as domestic consumption as they are purchased by the US Government.
Russia is incapable of feeding it’s own population, the USA is more than capable
Yes, let’s look at the facts:))
1) Northern country Russia exports much more grain per capita than the US with super fertile lands.
2) Georgia exports labor migrants and scrap metal after 20 years of independence.
3) Georgian labor migrants (mostly working in Russia) provide larger currency influx into their native scrap state than all the FDI the crap state receives.
So, the question: wiki says 20% of Georgian work force works abroad. Why don’t Misha just send *all* Kartvels abroad – to have a boost to a Georgian economy?:)
In the post above, I had no intention to call Georgia “a crap state”:))) It was a “scrap state”, of course.
P.S. of course, nobody would be calling Georgia “a crap state” – it’s a paradise, judging by the ratings:))))
Actually Dtard, much of Russia is just as fertile as the US.
And the total US production is higher per capita than Russia, just that US also consumes more.
In addition, being a Russian retard, you only look at wheat production, forgetting about maize.
The USA produces huge amounts of Maize (Corn), Russia produces virtually none.
2009 Maize, Rice, and Wheat area, World
Country Maize area, ha Maize production, Mt Yield, Mt/ha
WORLD 159,531,007 817,110,509 5.12
USA 32,209,277 333,010,910 10.34
China 30,478,998 163,118,097 5.35
Brazil 13,791,219 51,232,447 3.71
India 8,400,000 17,300,000 2.06
Mexico 7,200,000 20,202,600 2.81
Argentina 2,337,175 13,121,380 5.61
Country Wheat area, ha Wheat production, Mt Yield, Mt/ha
WORLD 225,437,694 681,915,838 3.02
China 24,210,075 114,950,296 4.75
India 28,400,000 80,680,000 2.84
Russian Fed. 26,632,900 61,739,750 2.32
USA 20,181,081 60,314,290 2.99
Australia 13,507,000 21,656,000 1.60
France 5,146,600 38,324,700 7.45
http://nue.okstate.edu/crop_information/world_wheat_production.htm
So when you take total grain production into account, the USA with 308,745,538 people produces 393,325,200 Tons of grain, a ratio of 1.27 tons per person.
Russia with a population of 142,905,200 people produces 67,239,750 tons of grain, a ratio of 0.47 tons per person.
So Dtard, try actually learning about a subject before shooting your lying, filthy, racist little mouth off.
Like I said, Russian agriculture is pathetic.
Andy: “Actually Dtard, much of Russia is just as fertile as the US.”
Arable land, US vs. Russia:
“The United States is blessed with more arable land than any other nation on earth. Still, only about one-fifth of our land area (382 million acres) is used for crop production. Grazing land for livestock accounts for about one-fourth of the privately held land in the U.S. (525 million acres).”
“In 1990, there were almost 987 million acres in farms in the U.S., that number had been reduced to just under 943 million acres by 2000.”
1 acre = 0.404685642 hectares, so:
US arable land: 381 M Ha
Russian arable land: 121 M Ha
More than a three-fold difference.
Andy calls it “Russia is just as fertile as the US”.
A reminder: Russia exports much more wheat than the US.
Andy calls Russian exports “insignificant” and Russian agriculture “a joke”.
And so forth.
All because he’s just as creative as Saakashvili himself:)))
,Yes, RV, Canada produces more food, but russia is a world champion of dog food production; it takes a lot of dog food cans to feed the russian ‘army’….
Russia exports more lovely teenage whores than any other nation.
Give them credit where it’s due.
http://encyclopediaofstupid.com/stupid/index.php/Russia
Two decades ago when the Soviet Union was collapsing, it was clear to me that Estonia was the one sure bet among the former Soviet republics. During the Soviet years, they always had access to Finnish TV, which gave them a window on the outside world. Therefore, they didn’t have to reinvent their culture from scratch, and they were ready to start interacting with normal countries from the start. Estonia also has the geographic advantage of being on the Baltic, where they have direct access to Europe (as in the days of the Hanseatic League).
Sure, their per capita GDP is not far below Russian now, unlike every other baltic republic, it’s 200 dollars higher (what a perfect result, ain’t it?)
and they lost just 20% or so of their population during the 20 years, that means they may actually last for another 80 or so years before turning into a no man’s land (what a perfect result, ain’t it?)
Estonia is just a paradise on Earth:)))
In 2008, 3,700 people received Russian citizenship in Estonia, compared to 1,600 that received Estonian citizenship
“The newspaper quoted Russian embassy spokesman Maxim Kozlov who said ‘Estonia is one of the leading places in the world in terms of adoption of Russian citizenship.’ ”
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1440300.php/In_Estonia_more_new_Russians_than_new_Estonians
This pretty much shows how popular Estonia is among it’s own residents, doesn’t it?:)))
Hello Dmitry,
I see Russians still make up a large fraction of the Estonian population. It seems that Russian emigration, I assume back to mother Russia, has slowed these last several years.
I wonder why?
GM
“The newspaper quoted Russian embassy spokesman Maxim Kozlov who said ‘Estonia is one of the leading places in the world in terms of adoption of Russian citizenship.’ ”
What was the question?
As to the “I see Russians still make up a large fraction of the Estonian population.” – do you still see “the Estonian population”? Really?
And, last but not least, now you can REALLY feel the truly wonderful tender loving care of Swedish banksters bleeding your country white.
Voi saatana Noortipankki! :-)
Better a swedish banker than a Russian banker. I see life expectancy among Russian bankers is inferior to that of its male population.
GM
Then how comes Estonia lost more people during the last 20 years?
oh, but I know your answer:
Wasn’t it a great achivement that Estonia lost just 15% of it’s population, but became sooo free from Russian banksters! now we have those cute Swedes owning our homes!
Hello Dmitry,
A lot of that was those fun loving Russians heading back home. With the hell that is present Russia, the flows have slowed greatly, and the population appears to be on the mend.
Not bad for a country that has none of Russia’s advantages in resources, and a number of disadvantages, the most important being proximity to Russia.
Better a cute Swede than a surly Russian.
GM
Honey, a lot of these were young Estonians just leaving the country for good.
Ethnic Estonians, 1990 – 963,281
Ethnic Estonians, 2009 – 921,484
Age structure:
age groups 10-14, 15-19, 30-34, 65-69 1990: 111 381, 109 719, 120 817, 62 671
age groups 10-14, 15-19, 30-34, 65-69 2010 :61 266, 81 447, 93 927, 59 349
Young are fleeing, old ones stay.
Ageing society.
Again:
Children 10-14, 1990, Communist Estonia:
111 381
Children 10-14, 2010, Swedish Estonia:
61 266
Almost two times less?
Umm, I’d say l’Estonie est vraiment un pays jeune et dynamique, mais un petit peu trop dynamique, non?
Give Dmitry a break! Somebody’s gotta be holding a gun to his head!
And you should perish somewhere close to the western shores of Bering’s strait.
Hmm… I’m not sure what you mean. I think I better sleep. :^D
Goodnite honey:) Sleep well))
Funny observation about economic indicators in these graphs: They seem to peak soon after the Democrats took over the US congress! So their soviet alliance screwed Russia too! HA HA HA!
Funny how you fail to notice Putin is a neocon, honey:)))))
And how would I know a neocon, Sweetpea?
Oh, Pumpkin, I’d say ability to spot neocons will come automatically, after you grow up.
What’s that like, growing up? I would never suspect a communist of having done so! I’d have shot him first!
Sad that you didn’t even think about why Putin is neocon and you hate him so much.
Please pardon the schadenfreude (I think that’s how it’s spelled). I don’t hate Russians or Democrats. I just hate their vast totalitarian goon majorities. Now I’ll stop.
No, don’t stop here, we’re happy to have you here with us:)
You, and your fellow neocon from Georgia Andrew could become a duet, please-please don’t go!
As an average Estonian it is good to see my country develop so fast and firmly after so many years of hardship under Soviet regime and rebuilding the country from ruins.
As an average Estonian I would like to see nothing more than peace between the two countries to live my life without war and conflicts although it will probably be only a dream now that Russia is under strong Putins regime.
I am proud to belong on the same side with EU countries and US though. It is truly supporting feeling to work towards tomorrow rebuilding our country as this time maybe we are not alone when Russia comes to rape, murder and steal again.
Knowing the obvious superiority of American food production to that of Russia, I feel that I should refer fans of Dmitry to an old novel called “The Ugly American.” This should explain any statistics he cites.
Fans of Dmitry?:) Oh, don’t flatter me:)
Speaking seriously, I wouldn’t advice any novels if I were you. I doubt anyone trusts you enough (so far, of course) to care and read the first page.
“As an average Estonian it is good to see my country develop so fast and firmly after so many years of hardship under Soviet regime and rebuilding the country from ruins.”
Children 10-14, 1990, Communist Estonia:
111 381
Children 10-14, 2010, Swedish Estonia:
61 266
As an average Russian, I feel pity for an Estonian who says what’s above is a “development”.
Though this thing really looks fast.
FY SKÄMS, DMITRY!! SCHWEDEN, SCHWEDEN ÜBER ALLES…
Looks like you’re right, it’s right there, fy skams ocksa!!
And everybody should also read “1984” to better understand why Dmitry is compelled to defend his nonsense propaganda.
Indeed!
Well, in his zeal to whitewash every Russian crime, particularly, seems, every Stalinist crime, he has now come up with such pearls of wisdom as “there was no war between Russia and Poland” or Russia and Estonia. As though attacking a neighboring country were not an act of war.
And, almost forgot, those thousands of Polish military officers shot at Katyn, they probably were not prisoners of war, they just came to Katyn as tourists to get better acquainted with the miracles of Russian “culture.”
All victms of russian/soviet barbrity, including murdered Polish officers, the starved to death population of Ukraine and millions of others have been vindicated just by pictures of moscow during the end of ramadan celebrations – moscow TOTALLY TAKEN OVER BY MUSLIM POPULATION – IT IS PROPHETIC AND FOREBODING. THIS IS RUSSIA’S FUTURE……
RV, so what was the peace treaty?:)
I can tell you that two wars between Poland and Czechoslovakia were settled by two peace treaties, 1919 and 1958(!).
The annexion of the Western Ukraine and the Western Belarus (which they are now) was exactly an annexion. The war was never declared there’ whatever your little servile american historians teach you.
If you think otherwise, please provide at least one document mentioning declaration of war by any of the parties, or a peace treaty signed.
But you won’t, because all you can do is talk, really.
Declaration of war is not necessary to start a war. By your logic, Hitler never started the war with the Soviet Union because he never declared war on the Soviet Union. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?
“Declaration of war is not necessary to start a war. Hitler […] never declared war on the Soviet Union”
RV, again: first check, then post.
STATEMENT BY JOACHIM VON RIBBENTROP, GERMAN FOREIGN MINISTER, ON THE DECLARATION OF WAR ON THE SOVIET UNION
Berlin, June 22, 1941
[New York Times, June 23, 1941]
When in the Summer of 1939 the Reich Government, motivated by a desire … [blah-blah-blah, nazis were beaten all **** off by the Soviets anyway]
Well, Mr. Molotov also thought the war was started without declaration:
RADIO ADDRESS OF 22 JUNE 1941, BY VYACHESLAV MOLOTOV, ASSISTANT CHAIRMAN OF THE COUNCIL OF THE PEOPLE’S COMMISSARS OF THE U.S.S.R., AND THE PEOPLE’S COMMISSAR FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS
As Transcribed and Translated by Novosti Press Agency, June, 1941
Citizens of the Soviet Union! The Soviet Government and its head, Comrade Stalin, have instructed me to make the following announcement:
Today, at 4:00 a.m., without presenting any claims against the Soviet Union or issuing a declaration of war, German troops have attacked our country, assaulting our borders in many places and subjecting our cities of Zhitomir, Kiev, Sevastopol, Kaunas, and other of our towns to bombing by their aircraft
and so on
http://www.mishalov.com/Molotov_22June41.html
I think Mr. Molotov was correct. The German Ambassador delivered the address from von Ribbentrop after the hostilities were already well under way.
RV, somehow those lame administrators did not let me publish a comment that simply stated you failed two times –
1) To provide a single document calling annexation of W.Ukraine and W.Belarus a “war”.
2) To provide a single example of a war not accompanied by such documents. To be precise, you failed quite painfully with the very first example you chose.
Hope you’re not a lawyer.
When one country invades another, with or without declaration of war, with or without any “documents”, it’s war. I see you lack basic knowledge of international law, so you can call it “annexation” but that “annexation” would not have happened but for an act of aggression. Call it what you wish, I cannot make you admit that you simply don’t understand. But how did Stalin end up holding and killing thousands of Polish officers if there was no war? Ever thought of that? I do believe you know it was a war, as the whole world knows it, but you are trying to deliberately obfuscate the issue, in order to whitewash Russia’s deeds, and especially those of Stalin’s. Your “patriotism” is quite misplaced, in my opinion. What is black will not magically become white just because you wish it.
In fact, the international law has long recognized that the existence of a war does not depend on whether a formal declaration is made. Undeclared wars are wars just as much as declared ones. There is not just a single example, but hundreds in history, but I give you one as you asked for just one.
How does Soviet-Finnish “Winter” War of 1939-1940 sound? You would admit that Stalin attacked Finland, bombed Helsinki, killed thousands of Finns and so on. Or are you denying this too? Well, if you admit it, there was no declaration or anything. See this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
And here is a pertinent part:
On 30 November, Soviet forces invaded Finland with 21 divisions, totaling some 450,000 men, and bombed Helsinki. Later the Finnish statesman J. K. Paasikivi commented that the Soviet attack without a declaration of war violated three different non-aggression pacts: the Treaty of Tartu signed in 1920, the non-aggression pact between Finland and the Soviet Union signed in 1932 and again in 1934, and also the Charter of the League of Nations, which the Soviet Union signed in 1934.
To make sure you understand:
If the US congress did not declare a war, the nation is not at war.This power of congress is mentioned in the US constitution, article 1, section 8.
“When one country invades another”…
So, when the war that the US started on Serbia is going to end? Or you believe that planes barraging over Belgrade were not, like, “invasion”?
The war the US started on Afghanistan?
When is France going to sign a peace treaty with Lybia?
“How does Soviet-Finnish “Winter” War of 1939-1940 sound?”
LOL!
It sounds exactly like the “Aunus invasion”, and the “Petsamo invasion”, and the “Viena invasion”, and the “Karelian invasion”, honey.
But you’ve never actually heard of all these, right?
Because just like with the international law, you know just as much about history as they tell you over Fox News, right?
In your own words, RV:
“Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?”
Continuing with my original point (see below), a preemptory attack on any aggressor (the nazis, the soviets, the mohammedests, you name them.) is not forbidden under any terms of international law.
Yes, so? BTW, forgot to name Finns in your list.
I am a constitutional litigator and has been for many years. Please don’t tell me anything about constitutional law of a foreign to you country. The U.S. Constitution does provide the U.S. Congress with the power to declare war, but this does not mean the United States would not go to war without it.
This provision of the Constitution (as well as the of the statute called War Powers Act of the early 1970’s) reserving the exclusive right of Congress to declare war has proved remarkably unenforceable and many Presidents have routinely ignored it, based on other, inconsistent powers the Constitution gave to the executive branch. I am sure it’s hard for you to understand this, but it is difficult for most Americans too.
The United States has fought dozens if not hundreds wars since 1776, but the Congress has made only 5 declarations of war. All other wars were undeclared but very real. It’s you who denied that Russia started any wars and asked me to give you some examples to the contrary. I never disputed that the U.S. has started many wars, some justifiably and some not. Serbia and Afghanistan campaigns are among them (justifiable in my view). Iraq and Vietnam, not justifiable, again in my view.
Now, ignoring your snarky comments about my knowledge of history (which is significant, by the way, I have a master’s degree in European History from Princeton, is that good enough for you?), are you saying that Soviet Union did not start the war against Finland in 1939?
“Serbia and Afghanistan campaigns are among them (justifiable in my view).”
So, dear, if I am a US operator of a fleet of trade naval vessels, an I have an insurance, which must become void in the case of war in the US,
as a constitutional litigator, tell me, would my insurance become void if the US invaded Serbia? Afghanistan?
Would I be able to cancel a contract with any US company I work with now just because we’re in a force majeure now – the US started 4 wars, and is in a state of war, by your definition: Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, Uganda?
We both know the answer, dear. There’s no war going on. So no need to explain how all these US invasions were “wars”.
“remarkably unenforceable”
Nice to know the US constitutional litigator’s opinion about the US constitution.
“I have a master’s degree in European History from Princeton, is that good enough for you?”
No, dear, it is not. What was that “history” you learned? BA in the N.America indigenous people’s “history”? Because if you don’t know that Georgia invaded Russia in 1918-1919, encouraged by Germans, and you don’t know that Finland invaded Russia several times in 1918-1922, than you definitely know little of the European history.
My specialty is eminent domain litigation, which is based on the fifth amendment jurisprudence. I still remember a thing or two from the general law school curriculum and would be able to answer, but I don’t understand your questions about insurance and about some contract. You are incoherent. If you want me to answer, please re-state the question.
Fine, Princeton education is not good enough for you; too bad the rest of the world has a different opinion. Go ahead and advise those Russians who dream of getting into an Ivy League school that they should instead study in Siberia. See how they react to that.
I don’t understand your sarcasm about American Indians (by putting their history in quotes, are you implying they don’t have history or what?). They are people who are not in any way inferior to you and their culture is just as important as you think yours is. I guess, you just could not help it and just had to openly exhibit your Russian racism.
Be it as it may, I never studied American Indian history, just European one, as I said. And the curriculum at Princeton did not include description of every little battle and skirmish, so it’s true I did not know about Georgian invasion of Russia (Georgia is not in Europe, so it was not covered at all). I concentrated on Italy and my master’s thesis was about Risorgimento if you heard of it.
At least at the time I was there, the gravamen of instruction there was to study mostly general principles rather than memorizing the dates of every battle that can be found in any reference book
“You are incoherent. If you want me to answer, please re-state the question.”
Sure, I’ll reiterate my question, dear constututional litigator, Princeton educated person definitely can count on a simple explanation:)
presumption 1: I own a US based company that operates a fleet of, say, oil tankers,
presumption 2: I have an insurance issued by a US-based company,
presumption 3: My insurance contract says it becomes null and void in the case the US is in a state of war,
presumption 4: The US air force invades Serbia and bombs Belgrade.
question, one and only: Is my insurance contract null and void now?
Judging by your logic, it is;)
RV: “by putting their history in quotes, are you implying they don’t have history or what?”
By putting their “history” in quotes I imply you did all you could to deprive them of any and all possible “history”. Your country destroyed their culture, and Your country destroyed them physically. What “history” is leftto be talking about? “History” of rape? “History” of murder? “History” of genocide?
Did you ever wonder who suffered more from the US – buffalos, or Indians?
These graphs only confirm what Russian people knew for long time: the Soviet Kremlin invested in Baltic infrastructure much more than in that of Russian Federation… All post-Soviet countries live on the Soviet investments, RF has been a donor republic, and Baltic were recipients…
Correct. And now they’re being laid waste by Swedish banksters. Ain’t the West great and benevolent?
Anna, dear, Baltics is a poor region. Poorer than Russia.
That’s what the World bank thinks as of 2011, not me.
It was rich in 1990, compared to other Soviet republics, but it was governed by Swedish banksters for too long.
So, no more Baltic children, no more Baltic economy is needed by anyone.
…except Superputin, right.?
Superputin?
No, that was World Bank, not Superputin, saying that Eastern Europe is devastated by the West.
Right up until right now I have had a very different way of looking at this stuff. Do you ever get overwhelmed from writing all these great articles? I’m going to name my son after you. That can often be a very unique type of problem.
Dmitry, BABYCAKES!!, Why did Stalin invade Poland in 1939? A few Poles will tell you that their story makes more sense than his. They will be right.
According to Dmitry, there was no invasion of Poland and no war. Just some eastern Polish territories magically got annexed to the Soviet Union.
I’m talking about the “Great Patriotic War, ” which started after Hitler invaded Russia, and continues today, lol.
Umm, let me see… The Soviet Union invaded Poland during the Great Patriotic war because Poland was on the way to Nazi Germany, and those Nazis staying in Warsaw just didn’t wish to let Soviets pass by them to Berlin?
See no other reasons, really doubt Soviet Union was much interested in Poland in 1943-1944.
Continues today, dear? But that’s what RV thinks – war started in 1939 and continues, because no peace treaty was signed, right, RV?
I already told you, the Sikorski-Mayski agreement ended Soviet-Polish hostilities and is universally recognized as the equivalent of the peace treaty.
RV, no “hostilities” are end by no “agreements”. You’re a lawyer here, not me, really.
A state may be in a state of war. A state may declare war. A state may be in a state of peace. A state may sign a peace treaty, or an alliance, or a non-aggression pact, or a truce, whatever, but not “agreement”, ending “hostilities”.
Be precise.
Mayski was an ambassador to the UK. Ambassadors to the third states do not sign peace treaties.
The only thing the treaty did to the official interstate relations of the USSR an Polish state was:
It was a paper that allowed them to restore – diplomatic – relations.
Period.
Because there was no war, and there was no need for a peace treaty.
P.S. before you say Stalin again started to recognize Poland with this “agreement”, please check that you have answers to the following: 1) do you have any papers that claim he did not recognize it? 2) if he did not recognize it, then he just gave away a part of Soviet land to a man coming from the street?
And universally is universally recognized as a weasel word. So sorry, no peace agreement, no war declaration => no war.
You may believe what you want, like that the Earth is flat and that Stalin was the greatest person who ever lived. I would not be surprised if you told us that, too
I’m not saying so.
What I say, and what you don’t know or think of, is:
“Although the population growth rate decreased over time, it remained positive throughout the history of the USSR in all republics, and the population grew each year by more than 2 million except during periods of wartime, collectivisation, and famine.”
“The Soviet Union was one of the world’s most ethnically diverse countries, with more than 100 distinct national ethnicities living within its borders.”
“The Soviet Union adhered to the doctrine of State atheism from 1928–1941, in which religion was largely discouraged and heavily persecuted, and a secular state from 1945 until its dissolution. However, according to various Soviet and Western sources, over four-fifths of the country’s people professed religious belief”
(Compare to modern Czech rep., where over 60% is non-religious).
“After the communist takeover of power the life expectancy for all age groups went up. A newborn child in 1926-27 had a life expectancy of 44.4 years, up from 32.3 years thirty years before. In 1958-59 the life expectancy for newborns went up to 68.6 years.”
“death rates did not differ greatly across regions of the USSR”
So,
more religious than the modern Europe,
more successful demographically
more successful as a multiethnic society.
I only say it continues today because I still feel extremely hostile toward communists and soviet sympathizers. They still live, therefore It’s not over for some of us.
Sure thing, and RV will say you’re in a state of war with the USSR:)))
Also, Indians arguably suffered a lot more before whitey came along. Those who were not at the mercy of nature were at the mercy of bullies.
Oh, “heros civilisateurs” type of story… Indians were more happy to swiftly die in numbers from white hands, of course, than to fight each others for centuries, like they did before whiteys came along.
No, the best ones died before they ever met whitey.
oh, so then it was right to kill the weak ones left.
That’s what the Indians had always done to the buffalo, and anyway, they were not MUCH better than communists. At least they didn’t conspire to manipulate people on other continents to help them impose their totalitarian ideology though.
So rejoice, Europe, you’ve been saved from the totalitarian Indians!
Before anyone corrects me here, I know that Hitler invaded Poland in 1939. So did Stalin.
Why should anyone correct you? You are right, learned well, good boy.
A year before Poland and Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia.
Polant also dropped in to see what’s up in Lithuania in 1919 (Lithuanians still cherish the memories of that unexpected visit), was an Other Uncle Joe’s private country in 1926-1935, gave special signs to Jews (to make sure that Jews are honored enough, of course), honored Belorussians and Ukrainians even more, and did many other fun things.
Poland was never a cute cat-girl, even in those pastoral times.
Hmm, sweetheart, Poland sent 100,000 troops to help occupy a landmass containing over 10 million after the Czechoslovakian army deserted. This was after Germany sent over 3 million. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Umm, US-UK invasion in Iraq was 148,000 something US troops, 45,000 UK tropps, supported by few local ethnic Kurds. Now the States occupy the whole country having 41,000 there.
USSR occupied Polish-held Western Ukraine and Western Belarus with 500,000 servicemen, captured 250,000 deserting Polish troops.
Poland sent 100,000 to occupy part of Czechoslovakia a year before? Looks like invasion.
No, The USA never occupied a square inch of Iraq for a minute, silly.
That’s every American’s home. Unfortunately, we have to wait until all the cheap soviet weapons have outlived their service life until we can feel safe living there.
BTW, this post is really intriguind:D
I’d like to unerstand the logic behind it.
There is logic behind it, right? You were not banally drunk, right?
If you mean banal as in “of or pertaining to a ban,” then yes. Your favorite Russian empire has the power to ban me in my own country now that the cold war is “over.” But if you mean banal as in “lacking originality,” then no.
And yes, I was drunk, Snuggiepoo.
So, yes, “uniquely” drunk then you were, Pantywaist…
P.s. sure it’s smart to show you have to dig deep into dictionaries because you know not what “banal” means:D
Also, you are making my case against the soviet union better than I imagined I could. Therefore, I hope you have your facts right.
I like your posts, Pumpkin:)
Эстония щас дровами электростанции стала топить, леса вырубает. Охуеть прогресс! Вам желаю такого же! :)
Зато как экологично, и нефть не импортируют))
А дров на всех эстонцев точно хватит, такими-то темпами, – еще рощи две вырубят, и больше уже не надо.
А чо им. Щас вон в нарве на базе некогда кренгольмской фабрики где работало 10000 человек, собираются построить развлекательный центр. Нафик фабрики, даешь развлечения! :)
Ну так кого это интересует – зато независимые, аж укакаться) А сейчас еще будут детей только на этонском учить.
Кстати, в Ливии разрешили многоженство и вводят шариат – ну не демократия ли, а?
Как говорится, без НАТО вы не могли бы взять эту прекрасную девушку второй женой, приглашайте НАТО в гости!
Who were your parents? They deserve a trophy for a job well done. I’d sure like to know some more info. Colors are a lot brighter when you are around. You have brought up some really interesting ideas. You should really be thanked for your work way more often. So thanks!
Dmitry rating of “excellent”.
Shot in the head:: «Children 10-14, 1990, Communist Estonia: 111 381
Children 10-14, 2010, Swedish Estonia: 61 266 ‘
Good for all those children 10-14 who left! :^D
Doubleslashforwardperson, this comment of yours is really something beyond comprehension.
Do you really take it so easily the number of children in your Estonian motherland fell two times in just 20 years???
Разорили и разъебали Эстонию шведы — ура!
Länge leve det svenska bankväsendet!!!
Les baltes sont nos esclaves — notre bon vieux Charles XII serait complètement fou de joie s’il avait pu voir le monde d’aujourd’hui presque 300 ans après sa mort.
He also wanted Ukraine – maybe one day his dream will come true, who knows…
Ukraine’s fate lies in the hands of Bohdan and LES, Dmitry :-)
Aha, and it makes me think it’s sad your Charles XII had no luck to join it to Sweden…
Agreed, Dmitry. Personally, I’ve always thought of King Charles XII as a violently insane man, but as compared to LR’s “stable boys” he appears quite sensible; even sophisticated.
This really cleared this question up for me. Funny thing I believed I knew what I was talking about before seeing your site but it turns out I am a dummy. Using this information has seriously increased my knowledge. People often ask me, Would I go back to that if I could? And I always tell them that I would. I got sucked into this website for the last hour. Change is inevitable no matter what.
Unless you meant they were shot in the head…
Don’t want to put anything past the commies…
Estonia’s population is too small to compare with any nation. Their statistics will make more sense if their population is more than one billion just like China and India. Ideas that work for a tiny population hardly worth noticing to countries with large population.
If today’s Russia is such a wonderful place, why is it so easy to buy the sexual services of pretty, well-educated young Russian women in any European city?
And why are these Russian whores so inexpensive?
What a wonderful nation Russia must be, that so many of the best of her daughters prefer being semen-receptacles in Germany over life in Russia…
Nay, turf’s occupied, no food here. Move on.
No, you’re mistaken, Russian prostitutes cannot be inexpensive. Maybe the whore which you used last time was from Moldova or Ukraine (and maybe in fact it was a man). Russian prostitutes are desirable for desperate german men because german women’s faces are often only suitable to hammer nails. That’s why russian prostitutes cannot be inexpensive.
This site is strongly anti-Russian biased (it has it in name and not only), it takes figures from various sources in order to show Russia as less developed as possible. Comparing Russian economy with Estonian, as Estonia is the most successful post-Soviet republic, shows Russia as not progressive country. Try to compare Russian GDP with your favourite Georgia (has not surpassed GDP level from year 1989), Lithuania or Latvia, which seem to be favourite countries of this site.
Life expectancy in Russia has been decreasing since 1988 (Gorbachev’s anti-alcohol campaign managed to raise life expectancy, but later it was inefficient because USSR started to disintegrate), since 2003 is increasing. However, I see in that graph decrease in LE in years 2008-2009. How is that possible? No way this can be true. Crude death rate in 2008 was 14.6, in 2009 14.2. In fact, LE increased from 67.98 to 68.79.
Whole this blog tries to show that Russia is being depopulated and poor. To this can I only add this comparision:
2011 Crude BR Crude DR TFR Life expectancy GDP (per capita)
Russia 12.6 13.5 1.61 70.3 16,687
Estonia 11.0 11.4 1.55 74.8 19,375
And I say again Estonia is the most successful country from former USSR. Nice try, but in the future compare more countries and figures from not biased sources. Time will tell who after all “whips whose butt” as it is in the headline.
The main thing one has to remember is that Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Hungary and Romania were the countries which admire Hitler and their native population voluntarily and cheerfully exterminated the Jews. To this day, the nationalists in the Baltics and the Western Ukrainians wear swasticas and have SS parades. To be a Russophobe in these countries is to be pro Hitler, pro Nazi. They are the ones who started mass murder of the Jews before German Nazi troops entered their countries. Especially, the Baltics (Estonians, Lithuanians and Latvians), the Ukrainians and the Poles. To be a Russophobe is to be a Jew hater, the secret of their Russophobia is Germanophilia and Judophobia, the admiration for Hitler and his ideology. Essentially, this site is a Nazi promotion site under the guise of Russophobia. The Judophobia here is evident and it goes together with the poor IQ of the contributors and a poor logic of the posts here.
Excellent arguments. I don’t even know where to go now now that I’ve seen this. This website has interesting and solid content. I wants to be a teacher in this issue. You are really awesome! I bookmarked this to my bookmark web site list and will be checking back soon.
Estonia is full of monuments erected to the Nazis, and its people exterminated the Jews in WWII, it gutted the monuments to the soldiers who fought Hitler. This despicable site (LR) is really promoting anti Semitism and is implicitly pro Hitler, supporting all the Easterm European nationalists who wear swasticas to just about any event. It’s no longer cool to praise the Nazis as such, but LR comes as close as it can without actually saying it. At the end of WWII, the British and American forces entered the Nazi camps and kept the Jews there for a long time, treating them the same as Nazis. The Russians liberated the prisoners at once. This is consistent with the massacres and rapes American and British commit in Iraq and Afghanistan.
On this site, you see primitive hate, Neanderthal comments, veiled Nazi sympathies of the East European nationalist scum and posters with American trailer trash mentality to which 100% of the US media subscribes to. Never an in depth measured intellectual analysis.
Ever heard of “the discreet charm of the bourgeoisie”, Leon?
Seriously, the entire braindead West stinks to high heaven these days.
This was an interesting movie. I think the Ionesco play “Rhinoceros” is appropriate as well. US is today’s Nazi Germany.
Or, rather: Nazi Germany was an effort in re-inventing the US Settler Reich and the British Empire. But the Soviets would not have it. This in essence what Western russophobes are hating the most. As Vladimir Putin’s Russia creates ever greater problems for the West, this slander continues.
Thanks for your great information, the contents are quiet interesting.I will be waiting for your next post.
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Does your website have a contact page? I am having a tough time finding it but, I would like to send you an Email. Are there different posts you write for? Don’t get afraid to share your ideas. I’m suprised by the news and I can’t help but to think about how it might affect everyone involved. I really do like the insights you’ve made here but I kind of doubt many can be applied to the real world. I am not an expert however, it looks to me like this data would be really valuable if it were given to the experts who understood how to apply it.
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Pingback: 47. 📢Must Read 👉LETTER: Russians Outraged by Skewed Independent Reporting : the crude propaganda article which appeared in The Independent last month, praising 👉valentina matviyenko, the UNELECTED & CORRUPT governor of St. Petersburg👈, as