Essel on “The Soviet Story”

The Soviet Story

by Dave Essel

ssposter0509smI recently bought and watched the documentary The Soviet Story on DVD, which has just recently become available by mail order. I would now like to heartily recommend to LR readers. In the same way that I was astonished by the BBC having found genuine colour footage for its documentary on WWII (to me, a post war child, that was an event!), Edvins Snore, the Latvian director of this film about the evils of Soviet communism, has unearthed stunning, heartbreaking, and extraordinary footage in illustration of his cogent and withering attack on the very foundations of the Soviet philosophy.

Made with funds from the European parliament, this film was premiered to Euro MPs. I see it as New Europe trying to help Old Europe stop seeing things through its old rose-tinted, Uncle-Joe, spectacles/blinkers.

This the film does does with considerable force, the main thrust being to demonstrate that there was no essential difference between Nazism and Sovietism.

stalin-hitler

The Economist has praised the film:

Being burnt in effigy on the streets of Moscow by nationalist hoodlums must count as a kind of Oscar if you are a Latvian filmmaker whose aim is to expose modern Russia’s blindness to the criminal history of the Soviet Union. The ire of Young Russia’s protest outside the Latvian embassy this week was directed at Edvins Snore, whose film “Soviet Story” is the most powerful antidote yet to the sanitisation of the past.

The film is gripping, audacious and uncompromising. Though it starts by telling the story of the murder of 7m Ukrainians in 1933, it is no mere catalogue of atrocities. The main aim of the film is to show the close connections—philosophical, political and organisational—between the Nazi and Soviet systems. …”

This review by Joe Bendel appeared in the The Epoch Times:

Prior to last Sunday night’s Lincoln Center screening of Katyń,Andrzej Wajda gave the audience a probably much-needed history lesson, explaining the Soviet- German alliance during the early years of WWII. When he concluded, Wajda received a well-deserved standing ovation. However, for his in-depth survey of Soviet crimes against humanity, including Soviet cooperation with the Third Reich, Latvian director Edvins Snore was burned in effigy by Neo-Soviet Russians. It is an ominous badge of honor. The film that you are not supposed to see is titled “The Soviet Story” and it opened in New York last Friday.

From its inception, the story of the Soviet Union was writ in blood. As former Soviet dissident (now essentially a dissident again under the Putin regime) Vladimir Bukovsky explains: “When Communists come to power, it does not matter where, let it be in Russia, in Poland, in Cuba, in Nicaragua, in China, initially they destroy about ten percent of the population” in order to “restructure the fabric of society.”

“Soviet Story” acts as an effective corrective to the popular notion that the Communist experiment only turned horrific when Stalin ascended to power. The film documents orders mandating mass executions, estimated in the tens of millions, originating with the father of the revolution, Lenin. Still, it is devilishly difficult to outdo Stalin’s sheer capacity for terror. For instance, the deliberate use of famine to pacify Ukraine is explained here in chilling detail. In a crime against humanity largely ignored by the West, seven million Ukrainians were intentionally starved in the cordoned Republic, as foodstuffs were confiscated at gunpoint by the Red Army.

The heart of “Soviet Story” explores the close ideological similarities and barbaric collusion between the Soviet Socialists of Stalin and the National Socialists of Hitler. There is an eerie sequence juxtaposing thematically similar propaganda posters from both regimes, side-by-side onscreen. Even more damning are the documents Snore uncovers establishing close links between the SS and the Soviet NKVD (the precursor to the KGB), discussing among other issues, the “Jewish Question.” They did not just talk—they carved up Poland between themselves, and at Stalin’s prompting, staked their claims to the rest of Europe.

“Soviet Story” is most devastating when discussing the ways inwhich the more advanced Soviet killing machine served as the inspiration and model for the Holocaust. According former Soviet intelligence officer Viktor Suvorov: “A delegation of German Gestapo and SS came to the Soviet Union to learn how to build concentration camps.”

Snore has produced a chilling indictment of the Soviet experience with Socialism. He calls some very convincing witnesses, including Bukovsky, and the eloquent Cambridge historians Norman Davies and George Watson. As evidence, he produces some shocking archival film and documents. However, as the film makes clear, none of those who did (and still do) the Soviet dirty work has ever faced justice for their crimes. All told, Snore has produced a passionate but thoroughly reasoned case against the Soviet Regime. His only misstep is the periodic use of animated titles, which feel like the commercial bumpers in a History Channel special.

While this is a period of history I consider myself well versed in, Communist oppression was so ruthless and pervasive, “Soviet Story” was able to catalogue many fresh horrors I was not previously aware of. Probably the scariest aspect of the film is its timeliness, releasing as the Putin regime increasingly embraces its Stalinist roots. Everybody who wishes to continue thinking themselves well-informed should see this film.

It’s good, very good, and needs the widest possible audience. This year – 2009 – is is the 20th anniversary of the fall of communism in Europe, the 60th anniversary of the deportations from the Baltic States, and the 70th anniversary of the start of WW II and this film is about all of these!

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136 responses to “Essel on “The Soviet Story”

  1. There are various trailers and even whole parts of this movie available at YouTube; for example:

    I’ve seen the whole movie (for a while, it was on Youtube, but it has since been removed). It is indeed a very impressive documentary; but I must say that some of what it presents is still controversial. Specialists — not only Russian ones, but also many in the West — are not yet agreed on the Ukrainian Holodomor (Was it a deliberate crime against the Ukrainian people, or simply yet another piece of evidence of the inefficiency of the communist system, especially during its installation phase? Was it a genocide of Ukrainians in Ukraine, or of kulaki all over the USSR? Arguably, Kazakhstan suffered even more, etc.). Also, some (not all) of the documents linking the Nazi and the Soviets have been claimed by some historians to be falsifications — and it is true that, during the war, lots of falsifications occurred (especially at the end, when the winner was obvious) in all directions. One must be careful.

    I was also a bit put off by the ‘obviously angry’ tone of the whole film. The director made a film not as a dispassionate documentary that lets the facts speak for themselves, but as an obvious passionate work expressing the revulsion felt by its director. Such an obvious desire to make the viewer hate the material no matter what gives the impartial viewer a certain feeling of distrust — nobody likes to be ‘forced to feel something’ (it’s what propaganda does, and nobody likes propaganda). Because of that, I actually had a somewhat negative reaction to the movie, even in those parts in which, as far as I knew, it was telling the simple truth.

    I wished the director had adopted a more neutral tone and let the facts speak for themselves. As it is, the style of the film — not the material, but the style — has a lot in common with precisely the kind of propaganda that the Soviet Union used to produce.

    • Dear Asehpe,

      Your comment, “Arguably, Kazakhstan suffered even more, etc.).”, is typical kremlin spin-doctor propaganda.

      The logic there implies that since the kremlin orchestrated many other GENOCIDES elsewhere, then it should not be considered GENOCIDE because it is the standard policy, procedure, and practice of the kremlin?

      The Genocide there began about 1929, and by 1932, it was very successful for the kremlin.

      That summer of 1952, my father learned how his own father, who in 1932 had just gained certification as a teacher, was assigned to a village but couldn’t find any children there to teach because, all of them had died.

      http://www.rferl.org/content/A_Tragedy_Kazakhstan_Must_Never_Forget/1357455.html

      In its imperialistic frenzy, which stems from its acute inferiority complex, the Russian leadership, with the help of its special services, is trying to brainwash both the international community and Russian society with its Ukrainophobia, and through the mass media and agents of influence which they control—a certain segment of Ukraine’s population.

      Sincerely,

      LES

      • How many dead bodies were shrewn on the streets of moscow, stalingrad, and leningrad in 1932/33?

        There were thousands of dead bodies shrewn on the streets of kyiv, Kharkiv, and other Ukrainian cities in 1932/33.

        Rafael Lemkin who coined the term “genocide”, called the Holodomor a classic case of Soviet genocide.

      • The genocide of the people of Kazakhstan by the insanely delusional savage uncivilized pagan barbarians from the Kremlin continued for decades – and continues to this very day.

        Some 200,000 villagers essentially became human guinea pigs, as scientists explored the potential and dangers of nuclear weapons. Residents were reportedly ordered to step outside their homes during test blasts so that they could later be examined as part of studies on the effects of radiation. Some locals can describe — from first-hand experience — what a mushroom cloud looks like.

        And they are paying a horrendous price.

        Soil, water, and air remain highly irradiated in the fallout area, where according to scientists the level of radiation is 10 times higher than normal.

        One in every 20 children in the area is born with serious deformities. Many struggle with different types of cancer and more than half of the local population has died before reaching the age of 60.

        “Almost all my classmates and friends have died,” says 50-year-old farmer Aiken Akimbekov, a native of the village of Sarzhal, located near the so-called “atomic lake” formed by a powerful nuclear explosion in the mid-’60s.

        “That lake is void of any living creature. Fish can’t live there,” Akimbekov says. “When the wind blows from that direction, it makes people feel sick. It causes high blood pressure in some, and it also brings a very strange smell.”

        Akimbekov belongs to the generation of local inhabitants who grew up witnessing mushroom clouds appearing on the skyline every now and then. People would also hear explosions and feel frequent tremors.

        http://www.rferl.org/content/soviet_nuclear_testing_semipalatinsk_20th_anniversary/24311518.html

    • Stalin issued a clear signal in his now widely publicized and fundamentally important letter to Lazar Kaganovich, dated August 11, 1932. In it he questions the loyalty of the entire party organization of the Ukrainian SSR, while simultaneously demanding that allegedly concealed grain be squeezed out of Ukraine regardless of sacrifices (which could be justified by the lofty goals of modernization) and that a repressive “purge” of society be carried out in order to eradicate “Ukrainian nationalists”.

      Stalin then dispatched his loyal associates to Ukraine, who introduced punitive practices that were diverse in form but universal in their fatal result.

      Particularly dangerous to the Stalinist regime was the fact that the peasants were trying to escape from the places where they were starving.

      In one of his letters to Kaganovich, dated June 1932, Stalin expresses his dissatisfaction with the fact that “several tens of thousands of Ukrainian collective farmers are still traveling all over the European part of the USSR and demoralizing the collective farms for us with their complaints and whining”.

      A document prepared by Polish intelligence in September 1932 states: “Nearly all of Ukraine is traveling in search of bread, the trains are packed to the rafters; to get on a train [people] have to stand in lineups for several days”.

      This situation quickly changed after so-called food blockades of Ukraine’s borders were erected in the fall and winter of 1932-33.

      The blockades were manned by interior troops and the red army, who prevented Ukrainian peasants from leaving the country and, hence, spreading information about the famine.

      Also instituted at this time was a ban on what was known as a food “reverse”, which meant that private individuals were not permitted to bring food into Ukraine from Russia and Belarus without the state’s permission, with the volume of food products entering the republic restricted by a special decision.

      A document issued by the GPU of the Ukrainian SSR in February 1933 states that Kyiv oblast is the leading Ukrainian region with respect to the number of Ukrainian peasants who have left to escape death by starvation.

      This is what is recorded in a report by the Polish consul, who took a trip from Kharkiv to Moscow in May 1933:

      “During my entire journey I was most struck by the difference in the appearance of the villages and fields of Ukraine in comparison with the neighboring TsChO (Central Chernozem oblast) and even with the non-grain-producing vicinities of Moscow.

      Ukrainian villages are in significant decline; emptiness, desolation, and destitution waft from them; houses are in a semi-collapsed state, often with [missing] roofs that have been torn off; new homesteads are nowhere to be seen; children and elderly people resemble skeletons; there is no sign of livestock… When I later ended up in the TsChO (at first, in the vicinities of Kursk and Orel), I had the impression that I had arrived in Western Europe from the Country of Soviets.

      There are significantly more plowed and sown fields, the villages are clean, more decent, the houses are restored, and relatively greater well-being is evident among the people; you can see cattle grazing…”

      In June 1932 the Japanese consul in Odesa undertook a long journey through various regions of the USSR. He reported that “in comparison with the peasants of other republics, Ukrainian peasants make a pitiful impression with their ragged clothing, their emaciated bodies, and their begging: even in large railway stations peasants and their wives and children stretch out their hands for alms and beg for bread…”

      In July 1933 a female Polish consular official based in Kharkiv noted that the epidemic had not abated in the summer but instead had grown, affecting increasingly wider strata of the population.

      She writes: “The mortality rate is rising every day. There are very many beggars on the streets; lately, small children have been seen with greater frequency”.

      In the same month, July 1933, the Italian consul in Kharkiv notes: “Some doctors have confirmed to me that the mortality rate in villages often reaches 80 percent, and it is never lower than 50 percent. Worst affected are Kyiv, Poltava, and Sumy oblasts, where one can already speak of depopulation”.

      Already by January 31, 1934 the Italian consul Sergio Gradenigo drew up a report in which he attributed great significance to this decision. He even concluded that the most fertile areas of Left-Bank Ukraine would be annexed to Russia: “With the help of the famine, this territory, which has already been depopulated, has been settled by a new population – for the past two months Russians have been brought here by the trainload from Siberia… The transfer of the capital to the border is obviously entirely aimed at concealing the persecutions of the Ukrainian people, which will escalate even more after the capital is returned to its historic place. This return of the capital to Kyiv… is launching the process of territorial decapitation at the same time as national decapitation is already taking place on a broad scale and will continue further.

  2. Thanks. Dave, for sharing this. The DVD is listed and can be “saved” if anyone is a Netflix subscriber.

    I’m adding Martin Amis “Koba the Dread” as one of the most compelling books I’ve read on Stalin.

    When Communists come to power, it does not matter where, let it be in Russia, in Poland, in Cuba, in Nicaragua, in China, initially they destroy about ten percent of the population” in order to “restructure the fabric of society.”

    That 10% was of course the brightest, most self-sufficient, most creative, most individualistic, most economic high achievers. There is a need to select out all but the most compliant. That coupled with Stalin’s use of troops/officers as human fodder in WWII, it’s no wonder that the gene pool in Russia in took a big hit.

    Amazing, isn’t it, that we still have among us apologists entrenched on the left and most especially in academia. Knowing when staring at the irrefutable big picture that they have no moral authority they argue minor Communism metric facts.

    Stalin is now being repackaged as a nationalist in Russia. He’s now a fascist icon proving how little difference there is between fascists and communists.

  3. I watched this film.
    I agree it is a must see.
    In general the Western
    world is largely ignorant of the events
    it describes. These events and activities
    are so serious and evil that not know
    them leaves one with a very shallow impression of the wickness of the Soviet
    system and it’s cooperation and similiarities to the Nazi system. This film
    is especially important given the current Russian government’s desire to rewrite and cover up the historical record. This film clearly shows the destructive path which results when nations or individuals take up false principles, no matter how good their intentions are.

  4. Here is a good fragment with English subtitles:

  5. The lampoon largely relies on well-known fakes, such as forged Gestapo/NKVD agreement, forged medical experiments accusations, and many more.

    Just a piece of disgusting propaganda. Even more disgusting as the real Bolshevik atrocities don’t require any forgery, being abominable as such. Yet more, it’s used by many to portray the principal victim of the Red terror, the Russian people, as the villain.

    • Do you have any specific evidence (links, etc.) about the Gestapo/NKVD agreement being a forgery? I’d like to know.

      • I’ll try to provide specific links a bit later, but AFAIR the main points are:
        - the ‘document’ was signed by Müller who hadn’t been a head of Gestapo as of 1938;
        - it contains references to RSHA, also non-existed at the moment.

        • Considering that the joint operations of the NKVD and Gestapo in poland from 1939 to 1941 are quite well known, it matters little what ditt0head thinks.

          “After overrunning Poland, the Nazis and Soviets agreed, under the terms of a Secret Supplementary Protocol to the German-Soviet Boundary and Friendship Treaty of the 28 of September 1939, to a redrawn common border. Each side seized roughly half of Poland, thus ensuring that the country was once again wiped off the face of Europe. They also undertook a common struggle against the Polish independence movement – to suppress “all beginnings” of “Polish agitation” and to keep each other informed of their progress. In fact, this ushered in a period of close cooperation between the NKVD and the Gestapo. Contacts between the two organizations intensified and conferences were held to discuss how best to combat Polish resistance and eradicate Polish national existence. A joint instructional centre for officers of the NKVD and the Gestapo was opened at Zakopane in December 1939. The decision to massacre Polish officers at Katyn was taken concurrently with a conference of high officials of the Gestapo and NKVD convened in Zakopane on February 20, 1940. While the Soviets had undertaken the extermination of captured Polish officers, the Germans carried out (starting March 31) a parallel “Operation AB” aimed at destroying Poland’s elites.

          This partnership did not remain a secret for long. On September 19, Pravda published a Soviet-German communique confirming the joint role of Hitler’s and Stalin’s armies in the invasion of Poland. On September 30, Pravda proudly announced to millions of its readers that: … German-Soviet friendship is now established forever. In a speech delivered before the Supreme Soviet on October 31, Vyacheslav Molotov, Chairman of the Council of People’s Commissars, openly applauded the destruction of Poland:

          … A short blow at Poland from the German Army, followed by one from the Red Army was enough to reduce to nothing this monster child of the Treaty of Versailles… . One may like or dislike Hitlerism, but every sane person will understand that that ideology cannot be destroyed by force. It is, therefore, not only nonsensical, but also criminal to pursue a war for the destruction of Hitlerism.”

          http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/ethnic_minorities_occupation/jews_foreword.html

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo-NKVD_Conferences

          • Andrew, I take your point, and thanks for the links. But I must insist: only what is true can be used as argument. I wished the movie had used any of the other facts you mentioned; instead, however, it used something that turns out to be a forgery. It may “not matter” in case there are other documents and other evidence, but what do you think that using a forgery is going to do for the credibility of that movie? It will just put more weapons in the hands of those who fight against recognition of the crimes of the USSR.

            The truth is always the best medicine. Let’s leave any forgeries out of the arguments basket.

            • Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of political warfare.

        • That’s interesting. If you can find links I’d be really thankful — that’s the kind of thing I want to keep in my files.

      • Here’s the link to a pro-forgery site for you, featuring photos and transcript of the Russian (and I dare say, the only) version of the ‘agreement’.

        The bungle is very crude, here we go:

        1. In preamble, we see a referral to the ‘National Socialist Party Security Main Office’. In fact, it was not a Party structure , but a Reich (i.e. State) Security Main Office, RSHA — Reichssicherheitshauptamt. We might attribute that to a simple translator’s error, but the RSHA itself was actually created almost a year later (Sep 22, 1939 vs. 3-11 Nov 1938).

        2. Authors switch from calling Gestapo a ‘Main Office’ to a ‘IV Department of Main Office’.

        3. The document calls Heydrich not only a head of a non-existent (at the moment) structure, but also a Reichsführer-SS. In 1929-1945, the only Reichsführer was Himmler.

        4. Müller is called a Brigadeführer (to be exact, Brigadenführer, i.e. with an error). Actually, he was promoted to that rank only in 1940, being a Standartenführer at the moment. Also, he only replaced Heydrich as a Gestapo Chief in 1939.

        5. The (obviously Russian) authors even managed to make errors in Soviet posts. Mamulov became a First Deputy NKVD Secretary only in January, 1939, and was appointed a Secretary on August 16, 1939. As of November, 1938, he was just a head of the Georgian Communist Party Agricultural Committee.

        So, the counterfeiters show total lack of knowledge in German history, and I’m pretty sure they haven’t even bothered to create a corresponding German ‘original’. Even if they know the language ;-)

  6. It so happened that I watched the movie almost three times – first in Latvian, then in English, and then again (most of it) in Russian. I would say, that in Latvian it comes a little more sarcastic than propagandist. Also, there is a long (20-30 years, maybe not that long :) ) tradition of Latvian non-fiction movies, and the tone of this movie (especially in Latvian original) follows that tradition.

    I’ve also read critique of the movie… burning effigies and dittohead post sum it up pretty well! Haven’t seen anything more intelligent.

    • Felix, maybe my feeling comes from not knowing this Latvian documentary tradition. I get the feeling that many Western viewers will just see “propaganda!” written all over it because of the style, regardless of the truth value of any of the claims made in the movie.

      Frankly, I’m afraid it may backfire. Russians will search for all little exaggerations and errors and will make it into an “example of the world’s Russophobia”, “here is why we need a commission on historical falsifications”, etc. etc. etc. Ah life!…

      • and will make it into an “example of the world’s Russophobia”

        It’s already a perfect example of nothing but a Russophobia, but be sure we’ll do. However, a pro-Russian rule is essential to do that. So, with the current RFian regime, all you Russophobes may sleep well.

        • Dittohead, to the extent that it contains a lot of truth as well, it goes beyond Russophobia (which is also present, I admit; though you must also admit the movie is entirely aimed at Soviet crimes, and when it mentions Russia it’s only in the way it still avoids acknowledging Soviet crimes). The point is precisely that it will be difficult to see the parts that contain truth, no matter how many, because of the propaganda-like style (and sometimes content, as in that forgery case) of other parts.

          I wished you Russians would simply admit the correct parts, respond to the incorrect ones with good arguments, and in general advance truth about the Soviet past. Maybe this is too much to hope for — lost in the current wave of Westernophobia, Russia is probably not going to be fair in any judgments of other people. But it is what I hope for — and I know for a fact there are good Russians out there who would want the truth to surface. I hope history will someday give them more influence on Russia’s policy.

  7. Russians don’t need to search for exaggerations. They do it all the time, and should be used to their governments lies. United Russia tells moscali what they want to hear. Moscali will not think much of the movie at this point. Maybe if the rest of the world thinks this movie is the truth……then still not much, till something goes wrong.

    Rasha had court jesters even in the nineteenth century. Serfdom was abandoned after losing the Crimean War, also known in Russia as the Oriental War with Europe. Moscals are slow, but they will come around. Especially after a few generations living in the West. The scumlords of the Kremlin will have influence, long as they can provide sausage and vodka. Russian Riots are always possible so history must be rewritten, to make things easy for Moscow to explain things.

  8. I’ve seen the film a couple of times on internet and now that it is available on Netflix will certainly see it again. It should be a required screening for everyone, including our government. For those who “insist” that it is a fake compilation you find most of the proof on this site(available in russian and English). Read it and weep for your country, rasha.

    http://www.gulag.ipvnews.org/index.php

    • It’s just what we’re talking about, some ‘facts’ such as medical experiments allegations, are only to be found nowhere else than the above-mentioned site created by Mr.Melnikoff, a well-known freak. Mauvais tone for anyone striving for a good fundamental historical analysis.

  9. George, riots I could see happening if the Kremlin disrupts the easy and cheap vodka supply. The sad reality in Russia is that when economic times get hard the marginal males of which their are plenty hunker down in a spasm of self-loathing with vodka as self-medication.

    Asehpe, substitute the documentary subject with Hitler and Third Reich and there wouldn’t be one iota of concern about it being perceived as propaganda. Pathetic isn’t that this bigger mass murderer still has people that bristle at adding one extra corpse to his body count or not having his signature on a specific crime against humanity during his reign of terror.

    With Stalin now shifting into an icon for fascist Russian nationalists and still popular among the braindead sovoks Russia is a morally failed state without enough ethical integrity to ever be anywhere near a western democracy.

    • You may be right, penny — maybe only historians would care about there being mistakes and exaggerations in a documentary about the Nazis. But I for one care about the truth. I want to accuse the USSR of crimes that it did really commit, not of crimes that it didn’t. The ones that really happened are already bad enough in my estimation.

      But then again, maybe someone would care if there were exaggerations and/or errors in a documentary against the Nazis: the Holocaust deniers. Ah, they would explore every little mistake as evidence that their theories of an anti-German Jewish-funded conspiracy are right. Sure, they don’t have much power now; but history is fickle.

    • Penny Good point on the “details” of the body count and signatures on documents. As if that changes the reality of blame. The trouble is that corresponding with the RaSSiyan Retardos on the subject means, that most of the time they do not feel obliged to do their history homework.

      So most discussion is not sincere and a waste of time on them. However I have learned a lot of History myself, from fighting RaSSiyan Invincible Ignorance.

  10. “Made with funds from the European parliament, this film was premiered to Euro MPs. I see it as New Europe trying to help Old Europe stop seeing things through its old rose-tinted, Uncle-Joe, spectacles/blinkers.” …..

    On my part “I see it as” USA and NATO stand up against Russia over WWII legacy. Let me put it on the table and say: There’s a a battle, a battle for hearts and minds.

    Some former Nazi stooges, some former Soviet satellites raised a well $$$ paid, big stink demanding an apology from Russia for the “occupation” after WWII trying to revise its results. Baltic countries has always been somebody’s b..ch. Germany, Russia, the USA. Who’s gonna be the next one, China?

    And let me (rts) tell you even more: Pipsqueak nations are no less bloodthirsty — just small, with a limited capability. When they have their chance for rape and pillage, they usually jump at it with greater zeal than bigger predators, who can often afford to be more lazy and forgiving. In many countries the locals collaborated in the Nazi racial “purification” policy. But only in Latvia and Estonia did they exterminate nearly all their Jews and other minorities even before Nazis set up their administrations in 1941 — and with the most gleeful enthusiasm they bragged to their German masters how efficiently they solved the “Jewish question.” For many of them it was their proudest moment in history — that Nazis regarded them as the second-grade suckers, to be subjugated, unlike others, of the third-grade stock, to be exterminated completely.

    History is a long affair, you know. So you guys from that little corner of the Baltic, maybe you should have your own annual parades, proudly displaying your long wet tongues, so skilled in licking the boots of your masters. If history is any indication, you’ll need those skills for a long time to come.

    • Boot licking is more a Russian trait than anything else.

      Russians licked the boots of the Golden Horde, they licked the boots of the Czar, they licked the boots of the Communists, and a lot of them licked the boots of the Nazi party too.

      Russian barbarism, including rape, murder, looting and ethnic cleansing is well documented, from Poland to Georgia, Russians have shown their anamalistic tendencies in public far to often for the depraved nature of their “culture” (so similar to German “Kultur of WW1 & WW2) to be in any doubt.

      • > for the depraved nature of their “culture”

        If you prefer the decadent pederastic “culture” of the modern “Civilized World”, it is only a matter of taste.

        • Russia, not being a part of the modern “Civilized World”, is of course worse — but that is, as you put it, a matter of taste. Кому как — и насчет извращенностей. “Pederasty” indeed! :-)

          • Кому как — и насчет извращенностей.

            Please find a Russian speaking person in the neighbourhood – and ask him to translate this.

            In the meantime you can try to look for the plural noun “извращенности” in any dictionary of Rusian language.

    • Note that neither the US nor NATO were involved — they’re not members of the European parliament. Yes, there is a battle for hearts and minds — but who is the right side in this battle, and how do you know?

      You need arguments, rts. Occupation it was — it was against their will, their leaders were murdered, and they were kept under control. The international community is already in agreement about that, and the historical evidence is overwhelming, from the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement to the Russian ultimata against the Baltic states to Russian military intervention every time a satellite grew independent feelings. Typical of occupations.

      Of course smaller nations are bloodthirsty. But you can only punish people who did things, not people who would have done things if they had had an opportunity.

      And then again, think about it: what kind of “excuse” it is for Russian-driven rape and pillage to say that others could have done the same? “Hey, your honor, it’s true, I stole rts’ wallet, but he would have stolen mine if he had had the chance! So I should be left to go free and unpunished! I’m right, aren’t I, your honor”?

      :-)

      • One sentence by rts clearly shows the evil kremlin mentality:

        “Baltic countries has always been somebody’s b..ch. ”

        We must be the first one to rape our neighbor, then we can tell the world that we are the first in everything.

    • WOW!!!! If only the United Corperations of America could be this objective and stop taking bribes from the Corprate lobbyist, maybe the US government could stop occupying other countries, like past war mongers: Rome, “Great britain”, USSR, Germany, etc…

      A little off subject…maybe, but how much extermination has britain with it’s colonies?
      Al

      • This was as response to RTS on funds from Europeans Parliment.

        • Corperations is a wonderful neologism with all it’s connotations:)

          I see at least three at first glance.

      • Well michaelh20, the former colonies of Britain, such as India, Pakistan, Uganda, Kenya, South Africa et al, have extremely close and friendly relations with Britain, and are voluntary members of the Commonwealth.

        Britain is greatly respected by great people such as Nelson Mandela (who considers himself an anglophile) for its advancement and promotion of universal human rights. This is not to say that Britain did not do wrong in its imperial heyday, but that compared to Russia, the British empire was a sunday school. This is not to say that they did not do wrong, the mishandling of the independance of India, particularly partition and the failure to stop inter ethnic and religious violence are a stain, but the differenc is that Britain works through the commonwealth to promote peaceful solutions to these problems.

        Compare this with the loathing which Russia is viewed with by its former imperial posessions.

        Russia communism murdered 61,911,000 INNOCENT PEOPLE from 1917 to 1987.

        Tsarist Russia murdered murdered 1,070,000 INNOCENT PEOPLE from 1900-1917

        http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM

        Look at fascist Russia’s behaviour in Transdenistr, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, the Crimea.

        Unfortunately poorly educated people such as yourself tend to make idiotic comments.

        Do us all a favour and get an education.

        • Please give a link for Tsarist Russia murdered murdered 1,070,000 INNOCENT PEOPLE from 1900-1917

            • Voice of Reason

              On a more serious note:

              I have looked at these tables from your favorite fascist Rummel. He gives no sources for his numbers. Did he invent these numbers himself or did he use original Russian archives? If so – did he do his “research” in Russia or did he use the documetation on Russian Czarist “domicide” collected by the local Hawaiians? Are these “documents” in native Hawaiian or in modern Pidgin English?

              Look, Rummel is a fascist charlatan. He claims that while sitting in Hawaii, he could count the exact number of Stalin’s victims and put it at 61,911,000. I could never find an exact accounting of what numbers he added up to get this precise number and where he got these numbers. What i sknown is htat he is hardly an expert on Russian history, and that real experts like Robert Conquest despise this snake. And while the number of Stalin’s victims cannot be known with precision, THE expert – Conquest – puts it at 15 million:

              Researcher Robert Conquest, meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million.[93] In his most recent edition of The Great Terror (2007), Conquest states that while exact numbers may never be known with complete certainty, the various terror campaigns launched by the Soviet government claimed no fewer than 15 million lives.[94]
              ——————————

              • Voice of Reason

                Robert Conquest, The Great Terror: A Reassessment, 40th Anniversary Edition, Oxford University Press, 2007, in Preface, p. xvi: “Exact numbers may never be known with complete certainty, but the total of deaths caused by the whole range of Soviet regime’s terrors can hardly be lower than some fifteen million.”

              • Oh really RTR, just because you don’t agree with someone, that does not make them a “fascist”

                Besides, if you actually read what Rummell has to say, he gives a mid range estimate.

                As for where he gets his references, well, try reading.

                This for example:

                Here is what he says:

                We lack a concept for murder by quotas because we, not the journalist, historian, nor political scientist, have ever before confronted the fact that a government can and has done this kind of thing. For the same reason, neither do we have a concept for the execution of starving peasants who fished in a stream without Party permission (trying to steal state property), nor pinning a ten-year sentence on the first one to stop clapping after Stalin’s name was mentioned at a public meeting.11 Nor for executing a fourteen-year-old because his father was purged; nor for the Red Army’s not only permitting but encouraging mass rape and murder of civilians in virtually every country it newly occupied during World War II.

                I call all this kind of killing, whether genocide or mass murder, democide. Throughout this book, democide will mean a government’s concentrated, systematic, and serial murder of a large part of its population.

                In sum, the Soviets have committed a democide of 61,911,000 people, 7,142,000 of them foreigners. This staggering total is beyond belief. But, as shown in Figure 1.1, it is only the prudent, most probable tally, in a range from an highly unlikely, low figure of 28,326,000 (4,263,000 foreigners); and an equally unlikely high of 126,891,000 (including 12,134,000 foreigners). This is a range of uncertainty in our democide estimates–an error range–of 97,808,000 human beings.

                Just consider this error range in Soviet democide, as shown in Figure 1.1. It is larger than the population of 96 percent of the world’s nations and countries. Actually, if France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark and Switzerland were blasted clean of all human life in a nuclear war, the human toll would be less than just this range in the Soviet’s probable democide–the range, and not even the total murdered.

                Appendix 1.1 to this chapter provides the overall totals, and comparisons of these totals to those estimated by others. Appendix 1.2 details various estimates of death rates in labor camps or through deportations, and the overall death rate estimates used throughout the appendices. It also shows the effect of varying some assumptions underlying the totals.

                All figures given in the text are taken from or based on one or more of these appendices. Table 1.1 gives a breakdown of the most probable, central estimates, of the various agents of murder developed in these appendices for each historical period. The Soviet death toll from international and civil wars and rebellions is also shown for comparison. Figure 1.2 displays the relative contribution of the democide components to the overall 61,911,000; Figure 1.3 shows the percentage contribution of these components and war to total violent deaths. Finally, Figure 1.4 overlays the total democide per period by the annual democide rate.

                It is impossible to fix in mind and digest this democide. Focusing on the most probable estimate of 61,911,000 murdered, as shown in Table 1.2 it is over four times the battle dead (15,000,000) for all nations in the Second World War.12 Indeed, it exceeds the total deaths (35,700,000) from all this century’s international, civil, guerrilla, and liberation wars, including the Russian Civil War itself.13 Many other comparisons are given in Table 1.2 and Figure 1.5, the purpose of which is to communicate some feel for what the Soviet democide means in sheer numbers.

                Another way of viewing the Soviet democide is in terms of the annual risk it posed to the soviet citizen. Table 1.3 shows this risk of death from war and some commonplace risks, like smoking or cancer. Figure 1.6, following, graphs some of them.

                Now consider just the low democide estimate of 24,063,000 citizens murdered. This is an absolute, rock bottom, low. It is calculated from all the most conservative, lowest estimates, for all kinds and sources and periods of democide, for 1917 to 1987. It is highly improbable that all these hundreds of very low estimates are correct. The low of 24,063,000 killed is over 20,000,000 dead below the 42 year average (1918-1959) low estimate among experts or knowledgeable Soviets; more important, it is over 15,000,000 dead below the 42 year average of those low estimates based on census data (see Appendix 1.1). Yet, this lower limit of 24,063,000 citizens murdered is itself much greater than the 15,000,000 battle dead of the largest, most lethal war of all time.

                This absolute minimum is already so overwhelming that one’s horror, shock, or disbelief hardly can be increased were the number five times higher, as is the high estimate; nor can any moral or practical conclusion that one would draw from this low be altered in the slightest by focusing on the more probable, middle estimate of 54,769,000 citizens killed.

                Morally, we simply cannot distinguish a difference in evil between the murder of 20,000,000 from that of 60,000,000 human beings. Hitler’s crimes against humanity, his mass murder of Jews, Gypsies, the handicapped, and so on, already take us to the limit of our moral discernment and we can only say of Stalin and Lenin, that they, like Hitler, were absolutely evil. While for statistical and correlational analysis, it is important to approximate the number murdered as close as the data and prudence allow, for moral and policy purposes, we well could focus on the low democide of over 24,000,000 citizens, or over 28,0000,000 people in total.

                In addition, you seem to have reading comprehension problems. Not surprising given your usual state of retardation.

                Robert Conquest omitted the following from his death totals (which were only for Stalin’s great terror anyway….):

                Conquest’s calculations excluded camp deaths after 1950, and before 1936; executions 1939-53; the vast deportation of the people of captive nations into the camps, and their deaths 1939-1953; the massive deportation within the Soviet Union of minorities 1941-1944; and their deaths; and those the Soviet Red Army and secret police executed throughout Eastern Europe after their conquest during 1944-1945. Moreover, the Holodomor that killed 5 million in 1932-1934 is not included.[30]

                By the way ReTaRd, do you have any evidence that What i sknown is htat he is hardly an expert on Russian history, and that real experts like Robert Conquest despise this snake (nice English by the way, whats the matter, forgot to take your meds today?) or are you lying as usual?

                In addition, you forget that Rummel had the support of Mr. Solzhenitsyn

                Here are a few illustrative estimates from the Big Numbers school:
                Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these:
                Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.
                Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million “unnatural deaths” for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
                Gold, John.: 50-60 million.
                Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.

                Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:
                1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
                1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
                1939-45: 18,157,000
                1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
                TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine
                Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32) + 7M (1934-38)
                Cited by Wallechinsky:
                Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.
                Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.
                MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s.

                http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/547066/posts

                It seems that many experts on Russian history (including several Russians) agree with him.

                So, tell me ReTaRd, do you consider Alexander Solzhenitsyn a “lying snake” too?

          • Voice of Reason

            I love Hawaii. Many of my professor friends dream that when they get tired of research, they will join the faculty there and spend all their day on the beach.

  11. Andrew

    Georgians, don’t forget shakh Abbas of Persia and his “brides” (100% of women of Tbilisi lamed by him for fun).

  12. Asehpe, in general, I agree with almost everything you have said, except for one thing about the Holodomor:

    “Was it a deliberate crime against the Ukrainian people, or simply yet another piece of evidence of the inefficiency of the communist system, especially during its installation phase?”

    I’m not sure what you are trying to refer to here in mentioning “inefficiency.”

    There is no question that the Holodomor was a coldly, brutally calculated and engineered mass murder by famine.

    Period.

    It was decreed, planned and implement out of and by Maskva.

    Stalin did not need concentration camps or gas.

    He simply sent his assassins to gather up every single morsel and bit of food that there was – and to “deal with” people who dared to hide any food in order to avoid dying.

    So, in that sense, Stalin and his sovoks were more “efficient” than Hitler, because they saved the cost of building concentration camps and having to ship people to them.

    But the sovoks did not bother to count as accurately as the Nazis.

    For good reason – all talk of the Holodomor was suppressed.

    The film clip linked to by Les poses a good question, as Gorbachev mentions openly what Stalin and Kaganovich and the rest of the band of murderers did:

    instead of Russians asking Lenin’s question – “what is to be done” – they should be asking –

    “what was done”?

    And why.

    Those are questions that many people in Russia still refuse to ask.

  13. Elmer, what I’ve read about the topic says that there still is some controversy among (non-Russian) specialists on Soviet history. The main point is that the Holodomor happened during a general famine — some other areas, like Kazakhstan, are reputed to have suffered even more. This was the result of Stalin’s war against the kulaki (the richer farmers who the communist model immediately identified with exploiters and ‘enemies of the proletariat’) .

    Now, the sources I’ve read have absolutely no doubt that Stalin planned and carried out the killing and destruction of the kulaki, by all possible means, including the ones you mention — gathering every morsel and bit of food, and “dealing with” people who dared to hide any food in order to avoid dying.

    The point of contention is: was that a campaign against Ukraine, to punish the Ukrainian people, or was that a general campaign against any kulaki in the Soviet Union who wouldn’t submit to Stalin’s plans for agriculture? Was it an anti-Ukrainian genocide, or rather a (larger) crime against a whole economic class in the whole Soviet Union, with Ukraine being simply a part of it?

    So: nobody doubts that there was a crime against humanity there. Even Russian historians have already said so. The point of contention is really about Ukraine, and whether Ukraine can claim that it was against her (and call it Holodomor), or whether we’re dealing with another (more typically communist) crime against a whole economically defined class throughout the Soviet Union.

    • Of course, I should probably say that (according to some historians) there were two processes involved: the anti-kulaki war, and the economical catastrophe that attacking precisely the most successful agricultural workers caused — the inefficiency I mentioned earlier. It would seem millions and millions of people throughout the Soviet Union died of hunger because of that.

      • Assheap, you do go on. Contining to deny the Mass Murders in Ukraine from artificial famine caused by exporting all the grain. Also the fact that no one was allowed to leave the area of starvation.
        I have run out of patience with your Savok Mentality covering up the crimes. Anyone here can see that you are here merely to taunt on this issue.

        Giving in on some points like the majority of Rashan Savoks, that starvation was occurring elsewhere besides the bread basket of Europe itself. The lies about the weather had nothing to do with the record grain shipments out of Ukraine that year.
        All here, know whom were guilty, and got away with it.

        • George,

          Calm down, please! Nobody is denying that artificial famine was intentional. What Asehpe is saying is that there is a question whether this policy was intended as anti-Ukrainian policy; or, because of variety reasons (better agricultural skills, more fertile land, longer non-collectivization) the anti-kulaki policy had a much more devastating effect on Ukraine than on other region.

          So, the question is about the intentions. Obviously, for normal people it’s difficult to get into the mind of a tyrant, so we may never know. On rare occasions the intentions are clear (extermination of Jews by Hitler, relocation of Chechens, Krimea Tatars and others by Stalin), but in most cases it’s not so obvious.

          One can also argue that the intention of tyrants is secondary. It’s the results that matter. So, to George and my other Ukrainian friends I say – nobody is parroting Walter Duranty here. Let’s better discuss what lessons should be learned and what to do next. By just dwelling on the history you are not helping yourself!

          • Felix, thanks for the defense. Indeed, the question I pose is: was that an anti-Ukrainian famine, or an anti-kulaki famine? An answer to this question clearly does not leave Stalin off the hook: either way this was a monstrous catastrophe. But it does question the fact that Ukraine wants the Holodomor to be seen as a crime against Ukraine, even calling it a kind of holocaust — which, in case this is not true, would be a little disrespectful to all non-Ukrainian victims of Stalin’s evil (I’ve heard Kazakhstan suffered as much, perhaps more, than Ukraine).

            Besides, there’s the banalization of words like “holocaust” and “genocide”. Even if Stalin did consciously and deliberately target Ukraine, it would seem his goal was not “the total destruction of the Ukrainian people” because “if even a single Ukrainian remains alive, there is a threat to the Russian state” — no, this was Hitler thinking about the Jews. Stalin, at most, wanted to show Ukrainians how cruel he could be, so that they would never even dream of seceding, or revolting against him. He didn’t want to wipe out Ukraine, I think, but simply to castrate it.

            Call me a nit-picker if you will, but I think it’s unfair to the Jewish Holocaust and to other cases of real genocide to extend such words to situations that were not of the same kind. You could argue that Stalin’s anti-kulaki war was a kind of genocide, since it was aimed at a social class; but genocide implies aiming at a people or ethnic group. Maybe we should invent a new word — “classocide”? — for something like that.

            And note that I do not want in the least to diminish or belittle the criminally enormous suffering that Stalin brought to Ukraine. This poor country suffered in many ways all throughout its common history with Russia. Really, Ukraine has all my sympathy.

          • @”On rare occasions the intentions are clear (extermination of Jews by Hitler [...]”

            Actually the degree of Hitler’s knowledge is debatable (while Himmler even visited the camps and witnessed executions personally). There is lack of Hitler’s order or man (it would be Bormann for example) at Wannsee for example.

            No, I’m not a fan of David f-g Irving (never even seen a book of him and not going to).

          • Dear Felix,

            This is a quote from a communist leader speaking in the Kharkiv region in 1934:

            “Famine in Ukraine was brought on to decrease the number of Ukrainians, replace the dead with people from other parts of the USSR, and thereby to kill the slightest thought of any Ukrainian independence.”
            - V. Danilov et al., Sovetskaia derevnia glazami OGPU_NKVD. T. 3, kn.2. Moscow 2004. P.572

            Yet one of Stalin’s lieutenants in Ukraine stated in 1933 that the famine was a great success. It showed the peasants “who is the master” here.

            After the murders, Ivan Potupchik, who had formerly been an informer for the local OGPU, was officially employed in the mass executions of kulaks. Later, he was found guilty of the rape of a teenage girl and spent a short time in prison. After he was released, he was again employed by the OGPU, but received an assignment far from Gerasimovka.

            Kartashev, an OGPU investigator, willingly spoke of his part in persecuting kulaks: “By my personal count, I shot thirty-seven people and sent many more to the camps. I know how to kill quietly. Here’s the secret: I tell them to open their mouth, and I shoot them close up. It sprays me with warm blood, like eau de cologne, and there’s no sound. I know how to do this job — to kill.”

            • Les,
              I don’t have a strong opinion… People whose opinion I trust see several aspects of the famine. My reservation is driven in part by the fact that urban residents of Kyiv, Kharkiv or Krivy Rog were not wiped out nearly as much as farmers. But I certainly respect those who define Holodomor as genocide.

              Asehpe, I am also sensitive to trivializing genocide and Holocaust. However, given the size of the tragedy, I think that these words are appropriate. It’s when people are talking about Guantanamo being a torture place, Gaza undergoing genocide (with population doubling or tripling under Israeli occupation) – that’s trivializing. But when you are talking about Ukraine, or Cambodia, or Rwanda – the number of victims (either absolute or as a rate of the total population) is just staggering!

              • Dear “Golodomor” fans (transcribing the world with an H so that it would look like Holocaust reminds me of Chinese Powasonic and Philibs radios)!

                Do you know by how many milions the population of Ukraine DECREASED since it had obtained its long-awaited independence???

                • “Holodomor” should be transcribed with an “H”, since the Ukrainian letter “г” is pronounced as such (actually, more like /ɣ/ phonetically). If it were a “G”, it would be spelled with “ґ” instead.

                  As if an H was enough to connect it to the Holocaust!… This would be like me saying you spell it with a G to connect it to the Gulag :-)

                  As for the population — by millions, indeed. Just like the population of Russia. You’ve lost more men since the 90′s now than the Germans killed during the Big Patrotic War. It’s an interesting demographic comment on what it’s like to be a post-Communist country.

                  • > since the Ukrainian letter “г” is pronounced as such

                    Must Gogol be transcribed as Hohol then?

                    > It’s an interesting demographic comment on what it’s like to be a post-Communist country.

                    Maybe we just shouldn’t have started all that glasnost-perestroika crap, after all?

                    • Hi eugene,

                      Yes! Hohol is pronounced Hohol in Ukrainian, because Hohol was Ukrainian. rooshans pronounce Hohol’s name – Gogol.

                    • Well, would you rather imitate the Russians and say Gitler, Gegel, Gollyvood? ;-)

                      I’ll bet you also think van Gogh is pronounced “Gog”. Right? :-)

                  • Asephe,

                    “As for the population — by millions, indeed. Just like the population of Russia. You’ve lost more men since the 90′s now than the Germans killed during the Big Patrotic War.”

                    Same true for Estonia. Georgia. Belarus. Latvia. Lithuania. Armenia.

                    Ever wondered what Putin said about when he called the USSR breakdown a tragedy?

                • hi eugene,

                  The population of Ukraine decreased since Independence, because there are much less rooshans in Ukraine. :):):)

  14. Bravo, elmer, the Bolshevicks starting with Lenin used calories as a genocidal tool.

    I read that a very well thought out scientific application of calorie restrictions in the Gulag to turn zeks quickly into corpses was implemented by Stalin. In spite of their low tech methods vs the Nazis, Russians were bigger mass murderers using starvation.

    I’m sure that Putin’s fascist nationalists are combing the archives and trashing the most damning evidence of Stalin’s atrocities. We will probably never see his signature on the worst events in his reign of terror.

    Asehpe would like factual accuracy for the right reasons, but, it’s unlikely to happen regarding Russian atrocities.

    Don’t forget that the Allies captured the Third Reich’s meticulous documentions and used them efficiently at Nuremberg. The Russians have always been in control of their archives. Yeltsin threw them open, but, they were snapped shut to historians under Putin.

    One Yale historians attempt to explore the Soviet archives:

    http://www.slate.com/id/2204549/

    • Very well, Penny.

      Try and win a real all-0ut war with Russia, hoist the Stars’n’Stripes over the ruins of Kremlin – and then do all you can with our archives. Until then, it is up to us (not alcoholic Yeltsin) to decide who is to work with them.

      • Who is “us” Eugene? Wasn’t Yeltsin your president, elected by your people? Or are you implying he was installed from outside?

        But more importantly, are you saying that his policy of openness was a bad idea? If so, why? You claimed many times here that Russia is a democratic country no different from the West. Democratic countries generally favor openness, not to say there are no legitimate state secrets

        • > You claimed many times here that Russia is a democratic country no different from the West.

          Russia IS a democratic country by I never that it is like the West. I would never insult my country so grossly. :-(

        • Yeltsin: Just as Yuschenko, installed in a revolution. Just as Yuschenko ended with 3% level of support.

      • Why? What have you got to hide?

    • As spring gave way to summer the Far Eastern situation again approached catastrophe. To ward off the crisis the regime again turned to a combination of secret foreign purchases and shipments from Ukraine. Thus PB protocol 107 point 26 (osobaia papka) of 10 June 1932 authorized the purchase of another 38,000 tons of grain in Manchuria, half of it to be flour, with the dispatch from Black Sea ports of an identical amount. To get the latter to the Far East before winter, it was supposed to leave the harbors no later than 15 August. I have not been able to verify whether this ocean shipment actually took place. However I believe that it probably did (at least, I’ve not found any order rescinding it), and that in essence it entailed yet another redirection of the 30,000 tons of Ukrainian grain Stalin had originally earmarked for the Far East. If I am right, instead of selling it abroad to help defray foreign purchases the Politbiuro eventually came back around to sending it to the Far East.

      What does all of this add up to? In my present opinion it is unlikely that Moscow was cynically selling large quantities of grain abroad while Ukrainian, Volga German, Kazakh, Tatar, Bashkir, Caucasian, and other peasants were eating tree bark and weeds. The convoluted story I’ve outlined does however raise significant questions about regime priorities. Not the least of them is why Stalin apparently was willing to purchase grain abroad for emergency distribution in the Far East, the Caucasus, and Moscow but not in Kiev, Saratov, or Tambov.

      Jon Bone/ William Paterson University

      http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/hrussia3.htm

      • Actually, this was proved by the archives of Lloyd’s of London. They insured many ships, leaving from Odessa, filled with grain, to Italy and other countries.

        I have interviewed, and personally know, many of the survivors of the GENOCIDE called HOLODOMOR.

        Oral testimony has repeatedly been the same. There were “Mountains” of grain and other edibles, exposed to the elements, rotting away, guarded by the KGB or red army, while the Ukrainian people were dying of starvation nearby.

        Any trains leaving the territory of Ukraine were searched, and if a Ukrainian even looked hungry, they would be taken off the train, and put in cattle cars to be shipped back into the hunger zones!

  15. Moscow had taken over direct supervision of the grain seizures with the appointment of commissions headed by Molotov in Ukraine and Kaganovich in the Kuban. This particular document, however, is instructive in how UNINTENTIONALLY the then supreme self-consecrated leaders of the world proletariat, Stalin and Molotov, saw to the situation. Consider a few passages:

    “4. In view of the fact that as a result of exceedingly weak work and the absence of vigilance in a series of local party organizations in Ukraine and the North Caucasus, in a significant portion of their districts, counterrevolutionary elements – kulaks, former officers, Petliurists, adherents of the Kuban Rada, and others – were able to worm their way into collective farms in the capacity of chairmen or influential members of the administration, bookkeepers, storekeepers, brigadier leaders of the threshing, etc., were able to worm their way into village Soviets, land organs, cooperation, and strive to carry out the work of these organizations against the interests of the proletarian state and party policy and strive to organize a counterrevolutionary movement, sabotage the grain procurements and sabotage the sowing – the CC VKP(b) and SNK USSR direct the CC CP(b)U, North Caucasus Territorial Committee, SNK Ukraine, and Executive Committee of the North Caucasus Territory to decisively root out these counterrevolutionary elements by means of arrests, sending for long terms to concentration camps, not hesitating before the highest measure of socialist legality (i.e., ventilating the backs of their heads with small caliber bullets -JM) for the most malicious of them…

    • George, this is my point. Nobody is disagreeing that this was done deliberately, and I can even go as far as agreeing that there was an anti-Ukrainian element — the Ukrainians had too many revolutionary groups, too many partisan groups, they had already tried to declare independence, they claimed they spoke a different language…

      The point is: what is genocide?

      If the Holodomor had been real, Hitler-style genocide, directed against a people who must be exterminated ‘so that we may survive’, ‘it’s either us or them’, etc. — then there simply would be no Ukrainian alive today.

      Hitler killed 6,000,000 Jews in 3-4 years. In Germany, Poland and in Lithuania, the old Jewish comunity was wiped out beyond any hope of ever recovering.

      Stalin had a lot more time than Hitler. If what he intended to do in Ukraine was genocide, do you think he wouldn’t have succeeded in killing every single Ukrainian man, woman, and child, then split up Ukraine into, say, six different SSRs? Do you think he lacked the technology, the manpower or the willpower to do that — if he really wanted? Hell, he deported whole ethnic groups when he thought they were a threat.

      So, why “only” starve 8-10 million Ukrainians, when he could have killed all of them, or deported all of them to Kamchatka and killed them there? That would have been genocide.

      Because, I say, he didn’t want to destroy the Ukrainian people (who was, after all, “half-Russian” and deserved the “better” fate of being incorporated into the Russian people); he just wanted to castrate it, to break its backbone, to destroy its desire for freedom from Russia. Which is why he “only” starved millions of them.

      Assuming, of course, that he planned that from the outset, instead of simply considering it a bonus result of his plans to destroy kulakis all over the USSR.

      I don’t want to justify Stalin — who could ever do that? But I would like to keep words like “genocide” and “holocaust” to situations in which a whole people was targeted as such — i.e. the tyrant wouldn’t sleep while even a single member of the target group was still alive. Words like “planned massacre of one’s own citizens” would be better for the Holodomor than “genocide”.

      Call me a nut-picker if you will; but I think there is an important difference here.

  16. I saw this movie in cinema – in the end of movie there was chilling silence in theater.

    • Probably young Germans who were shown similar films about “horrors of communism” prepared in Dr. Goeebels’ ministry reacted in the same way. Later, many of them found their graves in Russia – after all, isn’t forceing the democratically elected leader of the United Europe the greatest “communist atrocity”?

      You can find a critical review of the film by Russian historian Alexander Dyukov “Soviet Story: Forgery Tissue” here – http://historyfoundation.ru/publication.php

      • Sorry for the typo. I meant isn’t forcing a democratically elected leader of the United Europe Adolf Hitler to commit suicide the greatest “communist atrocity”?

      • Where these published by the kremlin’s commission to rewrite history, or the commission to improve the image of roosha by lying?

        • The poor Pollack is being deprived of his favorite pacifier?

          Did you forget how the “UPA warriors” slaughtered Poles in the Wolyn?

      • Many Russians were also shown similar movies by the Russian propaganda department — and many of them found their graves not only in Germany, but — and even more significantly — at the hands of their own “Russian brothers”… quite ready to show how much Russians love each other. I guess that’s worse than killing Hitler — especially since he was such a great pal of Dzhugashvili’s, before they had their little sweetheart fight.

        By the way, thanks for the link. Even though Dyukov tends not to use evidence, his POV is always worth knowing.

  17. Penny, the article you linked to hits the nail squarely on the head.

    Logically, most humans would ask – “what happened, and why” – and in that effort, if there are archives, by all means, let’s take a look at the archives so that brutal murder by the government is not repeated again.

    But as Applebaum points out, and as LR has repeatedly said – Putin and his band of thug KGB kleptocrats came out of the sovok system, they had power under that system, and it’s convenient for them to continue to try to legitimize their thuggery by re-writing history.

    Hence – no access to archives.

    Orlando Figes wrote about the same thing in “The Whisperers.”

    Putin kisses little boys on the navel.

    But he won’t do what is really important – open up the archives.

    He is not a human being.

  18. Asehpe , you keep insisting that he Holodomor
    was not necessarily genocide , that it could
    have been class rather than ethnicaly motivated
    and you maintain that if it truly were genocide ,
    along the Hitler model against the Jews , there
    would be no Ukrainians alive today . And you
    argue this on the strenght of the fact that you
    are a nit picker and need further proof of Stalin’s
    intent . Fair enough , but I am somewhat of a nit
    picker too , so I noticed that you state that
    Hitler’s destruction of the 6,000 000 Jews , in
    your own words took 3 – 4 years . Stalin’s model
    of the Ukrainian Holodomor claimed between
    8 to 10,000 000 victoms in just 1933 alone . So
    now I must ask you , as one nit picker to another , which was more deadly , which was more efficient and which showed more intent
    at genocide ???
    Stalin had all intentions of wiping out the Ukrainians completely , but as he ” regretably ”
    admitted to his inner circle ” there are just to
    damn many of them ” .

    • From one nit-picker to another, genocide isn’t measured in terms of how many people it kills — that is for massacres — but in terms of how efficient it is at destroying a whole people. If a certain people numbers only 1,000,000, this is all you have to kill — and if you do get all the 1,000,000 people dead, then there it is, your genocide is successful. (In principle, if you kill all the last 100 members of an Indian tribe somewhere in the Americas, and if this was your goal — to destroy every member of that tribe — then there it is, you’ve achieved a genocide. It’s not the number of deaths that matters, but the fact that you’ve destroyed a whole people, and that this was your intention.)

      Stalin was a better killer of innocent people than Hitler. Whether or not he wanted to kill all Ukrainians (rather than destroy their independence) — that’s a different question.

      • Actually the definition of genocide as defined by the UN is:

        Under international law
        In the wake of the Holocaust, Lemkin successfully campaigned for the universal acceptance of international laws defining and forbidding genocide. This was achieved in 1948, with the promulgation of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

        The CPPCG was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948 and came into effect on 12 January 1951 (Resolution 260 (III)). It contains an internationally-recognized definition of genocide which was incorporated into the national criminal legislation of many countries, and was also adopted by the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, the treaty that established the International Criminal Court (ICC). The Convention (in article 2) defines genocide:

        …any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

        (a) Killing members of the group;
        (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
        (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
        (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
        (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
        – Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II

        So therefore the Russians comitted genocide in Ukraine via the holodomor, against the Chechens (twice), against the Inush, against the Georgians in the provinces of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, against the Germans in Koenigsburg (now Kalliningrad).

  19. Oleksander, you beat me to it – I was going to make the same point.

    Also -

    Here is an interesting article from BBC News, about Ukraine opening up its KGB archives. The rooshans, of course, are not opening theirs.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8119320.stm

    2 things jumped out at me about the article:

    1) people wrote letters to “Uncle Joe” in the belief that if only the monster knew, he would stop what was going on.

    Over and over and over and over again, one sees historical evidence of people writing letters to that monster, not knowing or understanding that he was the one who engineered and ordered their murders.

    “Put not your faith in princes, in sons of man,
    In whom there is no salvation.”

    That’s from the Bible – yet Russians (supposedly Russian orthodox believers), and others, put their faith and trust in a monster, who made movies about himself, with children sitting on his lap.

    And the same thing is going on today.

    2) The absolutely horrific sovok mentality which lives on – “we don’t want to know about it, it’s inconvenient.”

    To wit – one cheery nitwit schoolteacher named Svitlana volunteers that “the past is the past” and equates studying history to “blaming each other.”

    WHAT???????????

    How could a human being NOT want to know how it is that a terror regime was instituted not only in Russia, but in other countries as well??????

    Wouldn’t any human being want to know how to prevent such a thing from happening again?????

    And here is this quotation from the article –

    “Under Stalin, the Soviet secret police would bury executed political prisoners at Bykivnia. No-one knows exactly how many bodies lie buried in this wood, but some estimates put the figure at more than 200,000.”

    Wouldn’t any human being want to know how a government turned into a murder machine, by propaganda and repression, so that it doesn’t happen again?

    How could any rational, logical, thinking human being still fall victim to the sovok mentality – “we don’t want to know about it”???

    • “Good tsar, surrounded by bad advisors” (AKA “if only the tsar knew about this”) is the old Russian folk myth.

      Applied to Stalin, and to Putin too.

      • But “Democratic Ukraine” is sooooooo different from “Autocratic Muscovy”, isn’it?

        • Yep, it is. It opens its archives. Muscovy doesn’t.

          • Because “Muscovy” isn’t ruled by the US Ambassador, unlike Ukraine.

            • Unfortunately people like Eugene are the trash of the civilised world.

              Eugene and his ilk lack the basic civilised trait of empathy (this is all too common in Russia).

              He also is so small minded that he believes forcefully in the drivel fed to him by such fascist propaganda stations as RTS & TNT

            • No, it’s ruled by the oligarchs and the mafiosi. Gee what an improvement.

    • Elmer, for whom are 500,000 plastic coffins stored near Atlanta are intended? :-(

    • I’ve answered Oleksandr’s points above; I suppose my answer applies to yours.

      I can understand why Ukrainians might not want all the details to get out in the open right now — it was the same thing with East Germans. The problem is: there were Ukrainian people involved in this thing too, some of whom may even still be alive (or have living descendants in positions of power). These people would of course want to hide their past.

      It’s not beautiful — but it happens. Remember Obama’s decision not to allow those photos of detainees and prisoners being tortured to be published for the American people to see? I’m sufficiently cynical to imagine a similar let’s-protect-our-guys argument playing a role there.

  20. Moses Fishbein: The Jewish card in Russian special operations against Ukraine.

    I must say straight away that on the whole the Federal Security Service successfully carried out all its tasks.”
    The president of the Russian Federation openly declared that the wrecking of Ukraine’s planned integration into NATO was the work of the Russian special services, the result of special operations that they had put into motion. Afterwards, the Russian president thanked the FSB. This is direct acknowledgement of the fact that the Russian special services are conducting special ops against Ukraine, which are aimed at undermining its sovereignty and independence. This is a brutal violation not just of international law. This is also a brutal violation of Russian laws: the legislative base of the Russian Federation, which controls the FSB’s activities, does not permit this special service to conduct such specials operations.

    Take note: this document, which was signed by the president himself, does not contain a single word about any special operations against Ukraine, in connection with which President Medvedev recently congratulated the FSB.
    However, there is a concrete stipulation among the direct tasks of the FSB concerning the halting and prevention of leaks of state and military secrets. The FSB’s special operation, aimed at preventing Ukraine’s accession to NATO, is one of the Kremlin’s biggest secrets—and Mr. Dmitry Medvedev was instrumental in leaking this very secret.

    The Russian special services continue to carry out special operations aimed at undermining Ukraine’s sovereignty and independence. The members of the FSB and Russia’s Foreign Intelligence Service were rewarded for their success in isolating Ukraine. In recent months, the number of personnel in the FSB structures that deal with Ukraine has increased by 1.5 times, and this increase is reminiscent of the 1950s, when the underground Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) was active in Ukraine.
    One aspect of Russia’s special operations against Ukraine is the so-called “Jewish card.”

    They want to set the Ukrainians and Jews against each other by means of the well known method of “Divide and conquer.” They will not succeed in either dividing us or ruling over us.

    Moses Fishbein is a distinguished Ukrainian poet and translator, winner of the Vasyl Stus Prize, and a member of the Ukrainian Center of the International PEN Club and the National Union of Writers of Ukraine. Academician Ivan Dziuba calls him a “Poet by the Grace of God.” He is listed in various world encyclopedias. He is the recipient of Ukraine’s Order of Prince Yaroslav Mudry, V Degree, and the Order of Holy Prince Volodymyr the Great, Equal to the Apostles, III Degree.

    http://eng.maidanua.org/node/977

    • Oh yeah, the Ukrainians are actually such philosemites… just ask Khmelnitsky or Petlyura…

      • @Eugene, From the previous link:

        For many years Symon Petliura was proclaimed a pogromist in the USSR. It was of no importance that one of the founders and key ideologists of Zionism, the distinguished journalist, civic and political leader Vladimir (Ze’ev) Zhabotinsky had a deep and abiding respect for Petliura, because Zhabotinsky’s own name was taboo in the Soviet Union.
        Shortly after Petliura was assassinated in Paris, on the fortieth day after his death—4 July 1926—Zhabotinsky wrote an article that was published in the New York newspaper, The Jewish Morning Journal. It states in part:
        Neither Petliura nor Vynnychenko, nor the rest of the distinguished members of this Ukrainian government, were ever “pogromists,” as they are called…I know this type of Ukrainian intellectual-nationalist with socialist views very well. I grew up with them; together with them I waged a struggle against anti-Semites and Russifiers—Jewish and Ukrainian. No one will ever convince me or the rest of the thinking Zionists of southern Russia that these types of people may be considered anti-Semites.
        On 28 May 2009 Boris Shpigel, a Russian senator and the head of the World Congress of Russian Jewry (WCRJ), which was founded on the initiative of the Russian special services, had a meeting in Jerusalem with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, during which he raised the topic of anti-Semitism. During their conversation he declared that “old national heroes are being restored” in Ukraine, those who committed crimes against the Jews, and “history is being rewritten by whitewashing them.” Shpigel cited the example of Symon Petliura. As the Israeli media later reported, “Mr. Netanyahu expressed concern.” It should be noted that Israel’s Likud Party, which is headed by Benjamin Netanyahu, represents the ideological current of Vladimir (Ze’ev) Zhabotinsky whose portrait hangs in this party’s headquarters.
        Here I quote Symon Petliura himself.
        FROM THE “ORDER ISSUED BY THE MAIN COMMAND OF THE ARMIES OF THE UKRAINIAN NATIONAL REPUBLIC”—26 AUGUST 1919
        It is time to realize that the world Jewish population—their children, their women—was enslaved and deprived of its national freedom, just like we were.
        It should not go anywhere away from us; it has been living with us since time immemorial, sharing our fate and misfortune with us…
        I decisively order that all those who will be inciting you to carry out pogroms be expelled from our army and tried as traitors of the Motherland. Let the courts try them for their actions, without sparing the criminals the severest punishments according to the law. The government of the UNR, understanding all the harm that pogroms inflict on the state, has issued a proclamation to the entire population of the land, with the appeal to oppose all measures by enemies that instigate pogroms against the Jewish population…
        Chief otaman Petliura
        FROM THE PROCLAMATION “AGAINST POGROMS”—12 OCTOBER 1919

        • Nevertheless, when Petlyura was killed in Paris by Samuel Schwarzbard, the latter was acquitted by the French court because the murder was considered as revenge for the pogroms. As to Zhabotinsky – according to the logic of Zionism, the worse the situation for Jews in diaspora, the better because it gives them a stimulus to emigrate to Palestine/Israel.

      • Oh, I see — you haven’t read a history book yet. OK.

        And yet there’s anti-semitism in Ukraine. Just go to those old little dedushka’s selling printed materials on the Maidan Nezalezhnosti.

  21. Asehpe, obviously the fact that there might be people still around who participated in implementing the Holodomor is not cause to stop inquiries into it.

    Nor into the Soviet Story.

    As pointed out above, there are still victims around, not only of the Holodomor, but also of the Soviet Story.

    I, too, know a survivor of the Holodomor.

  22. Here is a site which covers the Holodomor, including the fact that it was genocide.

    http://www.holodomorsurvivors.ca/Home.html

    If you click on the “Survivors” tab, you will see summaries – and videos – of interviews with survivors, who explained the techniques used, including spreading poison on potatoes and other crops.

    One survivor lived, only to become an inmate at Dachau.

    My friend survived, only to be shipped to Germany for forced labor under the Nazis.

    Asehpe, Hitler did not kill all the Jews.

    Does that mean it’s not genocide?

    There were others, besides Jews, in the concentration camps.

    Does that mean it’s not genocide?

    In Russia, virtually noone had the “delicate sensibilities” to oppose the gulags, and the Terror, and all of the other stunts of the commie-sovok regime.

    Now, all of a sudden, rooshan, delicate little flowers that they are, don’t want to upset their delicate little psyches by talking honestly and factually about what happened.

    Or, they dress it up with “official history” – so everyone knows that it “really wasn’t us, and it really wasn’t that bad.”

    Terror and killing, rooshans can accept. And make jokes about it.

    It’s talking about it that they can’t stand.

    • > including spreading poison on potatoes and other crops.

      Maybe it was just herbicides/pesticides application – an innovative technology for the USSR at that time?

      • Doubtful Eugene, though it could simply be a case of the usual retarded Russian incompetance.

        But most likely it was poison.

      • hi eugene,

        You bring up a very good point. The herbicides/pesticides application were an innovative technology for the kremlin at that time! The kremlin commanded that the Ukrainian peasants {pronounced serfs in the kremlin – AKA cannon fodder for the moscali} use poisonous chemicals to poison the land and the people!

  23. May I have a question?

    Bearing in mind the size (both area and population) of the Soviet Union,

    what percent of its population was needed to maintain the soviet system for 80 years?

    I tend to agree that the majority of russians are aggressive, chauvinistic people with imperialistic dreams while lacking on culture and civilization: education, humanisms etc

    Russians? No thanks.

    • Actually, I’ve met many Russians who are not aggressive and chauvinistic, but actually well-educated and intellectually sophisticated. Aggressive chauvinism comes in many national flavors; it looks more visible in Russia now just because it is actively fostered by the government. People like Eugene or RTS are not Russia; they’re just… the same kind of bully that writes similar stuff on other topics in discussion fora all over the internet.

  24. Asehpe ,
    Ah , but you did NOT answer my questions .
    You just changed it . I never intended to say
    that the number of victoms determines whether
    an act is genocide or not . I simply wanted to make a point that Stalin’s Holodomor was more
    efficient and brutal , do not pretend to misunderstand me . Also I do not agree with
    your comment , that genocide has to result in total annihalation . Does that mean that you do
    no consider the Jewish Holocost genocide as
    well ?
    Finally, your nit picking radar must have been
    off , because I do NOT spell my name OleksanDR , that is the moscovite transliteration and I thank God am not one .
    that is

  25. http://gunter-spb.livejournal.com/773942.html

    A team of Lettish Gastarbeiter arrived to St. Petersburg to work at a construction site. So much for the NATO, the EU and the “Occupation Museum”. :-D

  26. Hi dilldohead,

    I wanted to respond to your comments numbered #1-5 above, but, instead, I found an appropriate quote that will save this website from a five page composition.

    “He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts… for support rather than illumination.” – Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

    Sincerely,

    LES

  27. The movie is a piece of baltic anti-russian propaganda proceeding by “collage”. Explanation:

    –> the facts of leninist and stalinists atrocities are no news and well documented for a long time.
    And the troubles at the times of Lenin must be examined separately, because it’s still the WWI context followed by the revolution and the resulting civil war seeing foreign countries messing on russian soil.
    –> the germano-soviet pact is no news either
    –> a compilation of atrocities and victims does not make for a “philosophical” analyse of nazism and stalinism.
    Here the main diffence is racism in nazism. In stalinism the victim is either an “enemy of the people” (so by class or political opinion) or random (for the sake of camp slavery work) but is not targeted because a specific ethnical, national or religious group. When baltic or caucasian people were deported it was not because a racialist classification but because the communist dictature wanted to suppress autonomist/national resistance on the borders of the empire. When jews and russians were deported by nazi it was because they were not considered as normal human being but instead as groups to be suppressed, killed. The purpose of GULAG was slave labor and political repression, the purpose of Auschwitz is extermination.
    There’s a big difference by essence and in nature. It’s where the conceptual and philosophical real stuff lies. Instead the movie shows shock material and equate nazism and communism by a primitive side-by-side iconography.

    Basically, a part of the baltic contemporary political class completely minimizes what is nazism, and instead builds up a weird sophistic which equals Stalin with Putin, because Moscow is opposing the agressive expansion and threat of NATO right on its border.
    Despite the stalinist repressions all along WWII, targeting equally russian as well as other
    soviet nationalities unlike nazism targeting jews and russians ie. non “aryan”, german people, despite that, the war was fought against the Reich by millions of russian people.
    It’s not thanks to the anglo-american that the war was won, but thanks to russians. Lend-lease is one thing, the real manpower doing the dirty work another one. Russians had to fought or their destiny according german plan was extermination and slavery.

    If Hitler hadn’t attacked Poland, but had stood quiet inside his Reich, he could had exterminated all the jews and other “Untermensch” he wanted without the “western” democracy going to war.

    All in all, such a movies is very borderline, build upon good documentary material but turns it into a full distorded ideological device.

  28. Minutte,

    Your comment probably is more relevant in a newer post (http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/another-original-lr-translation-stalin-vs-novaya-gazeta/), but since you put it here, I would like to respond…

    First, it is one of more intelligent dissenting posts on this blog… most just play to the perception that Russians are delusional sovoks. But back to your points.

    The “no news” argument doesn’t prove whether it’s propaganda or not. So, I am not sure how it explains anything.

    I don’t think the movie tries to make a “philosophical analysis” of similarities between Nazism and Stalinism. Schindler’s List didn’t quote Mein Kampf, or Barbarossa plan.

    That ends you analysis of the movie – so, it is difficult for me to understand the basis of your premise (“The movie is a piece of baltic anti-russian propaganda”). I would be very interested if you can elaborate.

    Then you switch to a different, although related topic: the difference between Stalinism and Nazism. Again, I would refer you to the other post – and, of course, my fairly long post there :). In short, the racial hatred/superiority of Nazism is quite similar to class hatred/superiority of Bolshevism. My great-grandmother died in Riga ghetto, and my great-grandfather died in Gulag around the same time. Pardon me, if I see the search for differences as somewhat hair-splitting.

    Last, you write:

    part of the baltic contemporary political class completely minimizes what is nazism, and instead builds up a weird sophistic which equals Stalin with Putin

    I see the two parts of the sentence as completely independent (that is, one can be adamantly anti-Nazi, and equate Stalin with Putin – or any combination). Maybe it was just a typo, or I missed your point – but the way you stated, it doesn’t jive. Can you elaborate?

    Is till have a lot of friends in Riga (mostly Russian-speaking, by the way). They see both old neo-nazis, and neo-communists as freaky fringe groups that try to make a lot of noise, since nobody pays attention to them.

  29. Just watched it – FABRICATION.

    For crying out loud, this is supposed to be a Russophobe site showing the big bad bear, can’t you guys find the real nasty stuff, god knows theres more then enough of it out there in the bloody history of Russia.

    I’ll take a few moments to take that “fabrimentory” apart 4 what it is – good old propaganda.

    1. Ukrainian famine of 1932-33 – video shown was of the Povolshje famine of yearly 20s after the civil war. Povolzhje is Russia, not Ukraine.
    2. Supposed collaboration between NKVD and SS, a fabrication published in the end of the 90s by a tiny ultra-right wing brochure “Memory”. The supposed alliance was said to be signed by Muller, while he became a brigadenfurrer only in 1940. All that = complete bs.
    3. Supposed drawings of MVD operative Dantziga Badaev – they were drawn in the late 80s by a mentally ill person.
    4. Hilariously Molotov supposedly ousted Litvin with tanks and NKVD “army”.

    The list goes on for pages.

    A simple search of FACTUALL documents immediately exposes the complete fallacy of the entire fabrication, but who cares.

    You like Nazis? White Power? White supremacist? Killing Jews, Slavs, Blacks? Because if so this will be right up your alley, since that’s what the “documentary” is really all about, it’s about hiding the truth of Nazi collaborators and shifting the blame on the victims of the Nazis.

    Here’s what is real;

    “Estonian former Nazi collaborators to hold reunion on Saturday
    14:4425/07/2008
    TALLINN, July 25 (RIA Novosti) – Estonian World War II veterans who fought for Nazi Germany against the Soviet Union will gather for a reunion on Saturday, for the anniversary of a major battle.

    Estonian veterans of the 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS meet annually in the Baltic seaside town of Sinimae, in the Vaivara region, where an estimated 200,000 people were killed on both sides in the summer of 1944.

    Regular reunions of former Nazi collaborators in Estonia and neighboring Latvia have sparked repeated protests from Russia.

    The veterans will lay wreaths at commemorative stones and plaques to Estonian, Danish, Dutch and Norwegian SS units, and visit a historical museum and the battle site, the event’s organizing committee said.

    During World War II, some 80,000 Estonians sided with the German forces, and over 30,000 Estonians fought on the Russian side.

    Reunions to glorify so-called fighters against the Soviet occupation have become an established tradition in Estonia in recent years. As many as 800 people gathered at Sinimae last year, including Austrian and Norwegian nationals.

    In March this year, over 200 Latvian Waffen SS veterans held a march in Riga.

    The Russian leadership has repeatedly called the EU’s attention to Estonia and Latvia’s attempts to glorify Nazi Germany, and to their discriminatory policies relating to ethnic Russians who moved to the republics after their annexation by the Soviet Union following the war.”

    http://www.en.rian.ru/world/20080725/114909714.html

    You like that? How about the fact that American taxes are spent on more then that, something that every American vet should be outraged about, because it would be the same as Russians officially celebrating Pearl Harbor by staging naval war games in the Gulf of Mexico.

    “CULTURAL EVENTS: NAZI-GESTAPO-GAME in Estonia from 6 untill 9 of August

    The Estonian society “Erna” (called in name of the Second World War Nazi battalion composed of the Estonians) have announced of the beggining of the sports-military game of the season. The game is dedicated to glorification of the battaglion “Erna’s” crimes and the Hitler’s ideas. Mass-media (“Interfax”) announce that there are 29 teams from Estonia, Lativa, Lithuania, Norway, Danmark, Belgium, Germany and the USA.
    The game is based on the real events of 1941 and begins with a landing to the seashore. It’s not clear who and how plays a role of Nazis’ victims – it’s necessary to precise that the Estonian Nazis had exterminated all the Jewishes in Estonia and proclaimed Estonia the first and only country “free of the Jewishes”. A part of the civil Estonian population was extarminated too.

    Surelly, the militar games could be a very nice pastime, but the glorification of the battaglion “Erna” and the proclamation of the Estonian Nazis like “patriots” or “fighters to freedom of Estonia” together with Hitler is not correct – such a behavour is a grave insult for the victims of the Estonian Nazis and their relatives.”

    http://aglanceinestonia.cafebabel.com/en/post/2008/08/04/CULTURAL-EVENTS:-NAZI-GESTAPO-GAME-in-Estonia-from-6-untill-9-of-August

    “Ukraine honours nazi collaborators – stamps

    Roman Shukhevych and Stepan Bandera, nazi collaborators and national heroes in Ukraine.

    On the 1st of January 2009, the day of his birth centenary, Ukraine honoured Stepan Bandera with a stamp issue.

    Bandera was a wellknown nazi collaborator during the second world war. He and his fascist gang was, among other crimes, resposible for massive ethnic cleaning operations in the Germany-occupied Vilhynia and Eastern Galicia. The purpose was to remove all non-Ukrainians from a future Ukrainian state. Thousands of people was murdered.

    Bandera was sentenced to death for plotting the murder of Bronislaw Pieracki, the Home Secretary in the Polish government in 1934, but the sentence was vacated and commuted to life imprisonment. He disappeared from the prison in 1939.”

    http://www.j1.se/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=47%3Aother-fsu&id=179%3Aukraine-honours-nazi-collaborators&lang=en

    Here’s Ukranina SS, the very ones that were herding people into the train carts that I’m sure a lot of you here saw in “Schindlers list”;

    “Waffen SS “Galizien” (Halychyna) Division and Other Pro-Nazi Forces

    14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Galizien (1st Ukrainian)

    Before World War II many Ukrainians in Galicia [2] regarded Hitler’s Third Reich as the only force capable of facilitating the establishment of an independent Ukraine in Galicia, in other words, a state free of Soviet or Polish rule. These particular Galician Ukrainians were virulently anti-Soviet and saw the Nazis as possible liberators from what they regarded as the Soviet yoke. When war broke out in 1939 and the Soviet Union occupied eastern Poland (including Polish-occupied western Ukraine), various Ukrainian nationalist groups set up military units to fight the Soviet Red Army. One such was the Nachtingal brigade. In early 1943, when the Nazis were suffering growing losses in the war with the USSR, the German Governor of occupied Galicia, Dr. Otto von Wächter, gave the formal order to create a Galician Waffen SS division to take part in regular combat on the Eastern Front. The 14th Voluntary Division SS Galizien was announced on 28 April 1943 and set up the following month.

    The division was organized by the Ukrainian Central Committee, headed by Volodymyr Kubiyovych, a Ukrainian nationalist and ethnographer, with the active involvement of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. Finding volunteers was easy: it was formed from among 80,000 Ukrainian-Rusyn volunteers from Galicia. Christian (mostly Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic and Ukrainian Orthodox) chaplains were assigned pastoral roles in the units. The division was commanded by German and Ukrainian officers, many being veterans of the Ukrainian Galician Army. The Commander-in-Chief was Major General Fritz Freitag. The historian Robert Conquest has written: “The Ukrainian, 14th Waffen SS Galizien Division (also known as the Halychyna Division), was created in May 1943. In his call to Ukrainians to join it, Kubiyovych, the head of the Nazi-authorized Ukrainian Central Committee, declared: ‘The long-awaited moment has arrived when the Ukrainian people again have the opportunity to come out with guns to give battle with its most grievous foe – Muscovite-Jewish Bolshevism. The Fuehrer of the Great German Reich has agreed to the formation of a separate Ukrainian volunteer military unit.’ ”

    http://www.henrypavlovich.com/Waffen-SS-Galizien-Halychyna-Division-and-Other-Pro-Nazi-Forces

    You like all that? Want to be Nazis or already Nazi sympathizers? Reality sucks when it goes against your grain doesn’t it?

    Keep it up, it’ll only burry you deeper in your own ignorance, but I’ll say this, resurrecting the horrors of SS will not happen in my life time, be it America, , Ukraine, Estonia, and the rest of the Baltics, and people should think more then twice when they see this crap razing its ugly head once again, because here you are not “Russophobes”, you are neo-Nazis.

    Think about it.

    • @Here’s what is real; (RIA Novosti)

      :)

      @you are not “Russophobes”, you are neo-Nazis.

      And your mother was Blondi the Hitlerdog (she was a bit**).

  30. Are you kidding me? So this is a “yo mamma” outlet for degenerates and racists? LOL!

    At least the neo-nazis have the guts and conviction to clearly state who and what they are, this is just pathetic.

    Enjoy your “magic” c-o-m-p-u-t-e-r you silly creature, just do everybody a favor; stay in your cave and do not touch books, it will offend them.

  31. Zack, you need to study your history, or what is ‘real’ as you say, a little better. The Waffen SS of the three Baltic States were not in any way like the elite SS German divisions. When the Baltics were occupied by the Germans, first the Germans requested for volunteers to join with them but when so few men did, they ORDERED ‘volunteer’ legions to be formed, and thus the Waffen SS came to be. Those legions were kept separate from the Germans as they were seen as lesser beings than the German troops and were often used as cannon fodder (my grandfather was in one of them and saw many of his countrymen senselessly killed). Even the Nuremburg Trials, which found overwhelmingly in favour of the Russians, especially considering the crimes the Russians had committed in Eastern Europe, has declared the Waffen SS troops of those countries were only ‘auxilliary troops’ with no power.

    And your statement that Estonia’s and Latvia’s (and Lithuania’s) attempts to glorify Nazi Germany in their commemorations is ridiculous when you consider that for those three countries, who were first invaded by the Soviets in 1940 which led to mass murders, tortures and deportations of their citizens (including some of my relatives), when the Nazis invaded and called up the local population to fight on their side (against Internatinal Law), the Latvian men HAD to fight on the Nazi side – but their hearts were not fighting for the Germans but against the Russians who had for a year been terrorising them! Of course the Nazis also ended up mass-murdering the population and saw the Baltic people’s as ‘the natives’ with which they could do with as the pleased.

    Those men who fought for their countries in such terrible circumstances, being trampled over by both the Nazis and the Soviets, deserve to be commemorated! And as they were labelled the Waffen SS by their Nazi occupiers, how else do they do that but under that banner? There were no Latvian, Estonian or Lithuanian armies to fight under!

    Your comments, which you state as if they are facts, are inflammatory at best and, at worst, a deliberate attempt to distort history.

    And re your comment “The Russian leadership has repeatedly called the EU’s attention to Estonia and Latvia’s … discriminatory policies relating to ethnic Russians who moved to the republics after their annexation by the Soviet Union following the war.”
    This is laughable that the poor Russians are complaining about the discriminatory policies of Latvia re-instating Latvian as the official national language after 50 years of the Russian occupiers making Russian the offical language in Latvia! Oh dear, now the Russians, who were moved to Latvia to take the place of the murdered and deported Latvians and happily moved into the missing people’s homes, furnished with their personal effects, have to be treated as equal to the Latvians rather than as superior. My, that must be difficult! What a human rights abuse!
    And why didn’t they complain when Latvian human rights were seriously being abused for those 50 years, with deportations continuing until the late 1950s, the best jobs and housing going to the Russians, major repressions etc?

  32. Nice try.

    I’ve tried posting but my posts were repeatedly deleted, just like this one will be. I contacted worldpress and was informed that the blog publisher is in complete control of the content, its editing and post “moderation”.

    You want to talk about oppression let’s talk about freedom of speech – it’s not on this blog, here it’s the good old CENSORSHIP, Soviet style.

    Keep enjoying your imaginary freedoms a bs you feed on right here.

    Btw, I’ve made PDF copies of all the posts that were simply deleted.

    I thing I’ll start my own blog just about the hypocrisy of this one (including the copies of deleted posts), just to underline the irony of the good old saying – “Kettle calling the teapot ‘black’ “

  33. oh looky, this one didn’t get “cleaned up”. Somebody asleep at the wheel? :)

  34. Long live to the URSS and the great comrade Stalin!!!

  35. Hi there,
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    Can you guys please guide me out?

  36. The fall of Soviet Union remains a landmark event in world history. It is through documentaries like this one that we come to know about many new facts and hidden truths. I think I would love to watch the documentary by Edvins Snore after reading your blog.

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