10. MYTH: Boris Yeltsin was loved by the ignorant West but hated by Russians.
REALITY: When Yeltsin told Russians to vote for Putin, they did so without hesitation.
9. MYTH: Russia is an oil superpower.
REALITY: Russian oil is worth pennies per capita, many countries have much more. Oil is a very bad, harmful thing for Russia, much more of a curse than a blessing, because it dilutes the need for immediate reform.
8. MYTH: Russia tried democracy and it failed.
REALITY: Russia has never once had a true contested election.
7. MYTH: Russia tried capitalism and it failed.
REALITY: Russia has never been governed by anyone other than a king or a person raised under Communism. It has certainly never been governed by a capitalist.
6. MYTH: Russia is the land of great literature and science.
REALITY: America, famous as a land of hillbilly morons, has far more Nobel prizes for science and literature than Russia.
5. MYTH: Russia is the innocent victim of foreign enemies.
REALITY: Far more Russians have been killed by Russians than by foreigners.
4.MYTH: Russia belongs on the G-8 because of its nuclear strike force.
REALITY: Giving Russia props because of its nuclear weapons encourages the development of such weapons, and hence violates the fundamental principles of non-proliferation.
3.MYTH: Russia is important because of its land mass.
REALITY: Russia’s territory is even more harmful to its interests than the oil that lies under it. Russia’s efforts to hold and control that territory are destroying the nation, because the job is simply far beyond Russia’s puny means.
2.MYTH: Russians are brave, and have shown it struggling against winter and invaders.
REALITY: Russians are extraordinary cowards, and have shown it in consistently refusing to oppose their own government. Russians fought foreign invaders because the were more afraid of their own government than those invaders, and because of their latent hatred of foreigners. Russians live with the climate because they have no choice.
1.MYTH: Russia will be great in the future.
REALITY: People have been saying Russia will be great in the future for nearly a thousand years. And every year, Russia keeps getting worse.
Dear reader, if you’ll try to repeat these obscenities in presence of Russians, you are risking. Not physical violence, it’s barbaric, but people will suddenly start politely agreeing with you and taking sharp things like scissors away from you. Worst of all, whatever you might want from these evil Russians, you’ll not get a thing. Of course, then you’ll have an option to sue LR for providing you completely false info, but she already admitted that she never said she is mentally healthy person, so I doubt you’ll have any success.
Below you’ll find some information about relevant questions.
10. LR not proved Russians voted for Putin BECAUSE Yeltsin told’em so. You know, ‘after that’ not means ‘because of that’.
9. As you can see, logic is something unbearable for LR. How ‘oil worth pennies per capita’ might ‘dilute the need for immediate reform’?
8. What is ‘true contested elections’? One when LR can beat Putin? Sorry, ain’t gonna happen. Russia had contested elections way back in history, even czars sometimes were elected and princes were invited to or evicted from cities because of people’s opinion. In later imperial period, Russia had elections in so-called zemstva, in summer 1917, Russia had elections in Constituent Assembly (? – not sure of term), and so on. Soviet elections at late perestroika were free and alternative. Rigged elections started precisely when ‘democrat’ (by LR’s definition) Yeltsin cheated to hold his power from Communist leader Zyuganov. Later agreed with massive fraud because else Yeltsin threated to stage military coup. But for LR and like, it probably was a good thing.
7. LR obviously hasn’t read Adam Smith, who warned explicitly that big property owners shouldn’t be allowed to dictate political decisions. And her idea that ‘try capitalism’ means ‘be governed by capitalist’ is bizarre.
6. And since when Nobel prize is a) only and b) objective measure of science and literature prowess in some country? Here you may find Russian-written article under quite yellow headline ‘Why Russian scientists don’t get Nobel prizes’. Aside the case described, there is an explanation about mechanics of nomination and so on. If you don’t read Russian, try to find similar material at English – it should be somewhere, if ‘freedom of speech’ isn’t piece of crap for retards.
And acknowledgement of existence of powerful scientific community in US is not something which disproves statements about great Russian science and literature and even about US as a land of hillbilly morons (with later I don’t agree, I hope LR is rare exception).
5. Of course, LR is unable to back her hallucinations with numbers. And idea “Russia ISN’T victim of foreign attacks because of some internal Russian matters” is, well, psychotic. Also is idea that Russia hasn’t been attacked by foreign enemies and not suffered heavy damage on her own soil. But I admit, US society might not posess historical memory about how invasion on your own soil looks so understanding in this case might be difficult.
4. I think LR invented the myth #4 herself.
3. Historically proven that Russians managed to hold and govern their territory. So, if methods of this holding and controlling suggested and applauding by West are visibly inadequate, it means Westernization is harmful for Russia, not her territory.
2. Russia’s history is very rich with rebellions, upheavals and mutinies. If LR hasn’t a clue about that, it’s her problem. For example, two governments were overthrown in single 1917th year. Result was Russian Civil war which related to American Civil war like Marylin Manson to Britney Spears. So, when some Westerner is suggesting to Russians to rebel and start turmoil for democracy-freedom-liberty-hotdogs, majority of Russians will think he (in this case, she) is idiot. You know, some things might be learned only from experience.
Idea that Russians fought foreign invaders because of fear, says much more about moral qualities of LR (or void of these) than about Russians’.
1. See for yourself: this pitiful creature, LR, hasn’t even proposed criteria for distinguish ‘better’ from ‘worse’. There is only hatred, not reason. People like her will tell you that Moon made from cheese, and after you’ll start to object, they will accuse you in that you are Martian agent who uses evil mental rays to distort human minds.
From her words, LR thinks now Russia is worse than in 1918th or in 1992nd. If you think this statement is less idiotic than aforementioned statement about Moon, go and learn some history. Or you may join LR in her crusade. It is your choice.
Dear reader, if you’ll try to repeat these obscenities in presence of Russians, you are risking. Not physical violence, it’s barbaric, but people will suddenly start politely agreeing with you and taking sharp things like scissors away from you. Worst of all, whatever you might want from these evil Russians, you’ll not get a thing. Of course, then you’ll have an option to sue LR for providing you completely false info, but she already admitted that she never said she is mentally healthy person, so I doubt you’ll have any success.
Below you’ll find some information about relevant questions.
10. LR not proved Russians voted for Putin BECAUSE Yeltsin told’em so. You know, ‘after that’ not means ‘because of that’.
9. As you can see, logic is something unbearable for LR. How ‘oil worth pennies per capita’ might ‘dilute the need for immediate reform’?
8. What is ‘true contested elections’? One when LR can beat Putin? Sorry, ain’t gonna happen. Russia had contested elections way back in history, even czars sometimes were elected and princes were invited to or evicted from cities because of people’s opinion. In later imperial period, Russia had elections in so-called zemstva, in summer 1917, Russia had elections in Constituent Assembly (? – not sure of term), and so on. Soviet elections at late perestroika were free and alternative. Rigged elections started precisely when ‘democrat’ (by LR’s definition) Yeltsin cheated to hold his power from Communist leader Zyuganov. Later agreed with massive fraud because else Yeltsin threated to stage military coup. But for LR and like, it probably was a good thing.
7. LR obviously hasn’t read Adam Smith, who warned explicitly that big property owners shouldn’t be allowed to dictate political decisions. And her idea that ‘try capitalism’ means ‘be governed by capitalist’ is bizarre.
6. And since when Nobel prize is a) only and b) objective measure of science and literature prowess in some country? Here you may find Russian-written article under quite yellow headline ‘Why Russian scientists don’t get Nobel prizes’. Aside the case described, there is an explanation about mechanics of nomination and so on. If you don’t read Russian, try to find similar material at English – it should be somewhere, if ‘freedom of speech’ isn’t piece of crap for retards.
And acknowledgement of existence of powerful scientific community in US is not something which disproves statements about great Russian science and literature and even about US as a land of hillbilly morons (with later I don’t agree, I hope LR is rare exception).
5. Of course, LR is unable to back her hallucinations with numbers. And idea “Russia ISN’T victim of foreign attacks because of some internal Russian matters” is, well, psychotic. Also is idea that Russia hasn’t been attacked by foreign enemies and not suffered heavy damage on her own soil. But I admit, US society might not posess historical memory about how invasion on your own soil looks so understanding in this case might be difficult.
4. I think LR invented the myth #4 herself.
3. Historically proven that Russians managed to hold and govern their territory. So, if methods of this holding and controlling suggested and applauding by West are visibly inadequate, it means Westernization is harmful for Russia, not her territory.
2. Russia’s history is very rich with rebellions, upheavals and mutinies. If LR hasn’t a clue about that, it’s her problem. For example, two governments were overthrown in single 1917th year. Result was Russian Civil war which related to American Civil war like Marylin Manson to Britney Spears. So, when some Westerner is suggesting to Russians to rebel and start turmoil for democracy-freedom-liberty-hotdogs, majority of Russians will think he (in this case, she) is idiot. You know, some things might be learned only from experience.
Idea that Russians fought foreign invaders because of fear, says much more about moral qualities of LR (or void of these) than about Russians’.
1. See for yourself: this pitiful creature, LR, hasn’t even proposed criteria for distinguish ‘better’ from ‘worse’. There is only hatred, not reason. People like her will tell you that Moon made from cheese, and after you’ll start to object, they will accuse you in that you are Martian agent who uses evil mental rays to distort human minds.
From her words, LR thinks now Russia is worse than in 1918th or in 1992nd. If you think this statement is less idiotic than aforementioned statement about Moon, go and learn some history. Or you may join LR in her crusade. It is your choice.
There are only two possible reasons why a person would do something that a person he HATES tells him to do:
(a) the person is STUPID;
(b) the person doesn’t really hate the other person.
So, it seems that Russophile Ugly believes that Russia is a nation of stupid people, while La Russophobe believes they are just misunderstood. Now, you tell LR, who’s the real “hater” of Russians?
There are only two possible reasons why a person would do something that a person he HATES tells him to do:
(a) the person is STUPID;
(b) the person doesn’t really hate the other person.
So, it seems that Russophile Ugly believes that Russia is a nation of stupid people, while La Russophobe believes they are just misunderstood. Now, you tell LR, who’s the real “hater” of Russians?
I think this topic is very different and there should be more pages like this,Your comment has a lot of truth to it, and I’d like to invite you to visit my page:
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I too pretty much agree with what’s been said here. There needs to be more focus on the disgusting filth bucket that is Russia. I’d love to see them become a healthy happy democracy that contributes to the good of humanity, but the way things are going it will unfortunately never happen. At least not in my lifetime…
I too pretty much agree with what’s been said here. There needs to be more focus on the disgusting filth bucket that is Russia. I’d love to see them become a healthy happy democracy that contributes to the good of humanity, but the way things are going it will unfortunately never happen. At least not in my lifetime…
Greatest mith is 1000 years of Russia history.
1000 years of history have Kiev Rus, country with the same capital as modern day Ukrain, and most of its teritory in Ukrain and Belorus. Kiev Rus was the most literate country of era, where is found children sent mail, written on birch bark.
Throught only when tsar Peter 1, changed his state name from Muskovy (which him tought as backwards) to Russia, his state started to have 1000 years of history. In old maps modern day Russia was labeled as Muscovy, Moscow state, Tartaria or Moscow Ulus, but modern Ukraine as Rus or Ruthenia. So some ukrainians thinks, that russians actualy stolen they history.
Peter 1 alsou conviced european geographs to expand Europ’s teritory to alsou include Moscow state.
Realy Russia history start with Ivan the Cruel or Peter 1, wich is not more longer than USA history.
Greatest mith is 1000 years of Russia history.
1000 years of history have Kiev Rus, country with the same capital as modern day Ukrain, and most of its teritory in Ukrain and Belorus. Kiev Rus was the most literate country of era, where is found children sent mail, written on birch bark.
Throught only when tsar Peter 1, changed his state name from Muskovy (which him tought as backwards) to Russia, his state started to have 1000 years of history. In old maps modern day Russia was labeled as Muscovy, Moscow state, Tartaria or Moscow Ulus, but modern Ukraine as Rus or Ruthenia. So some ukrainians thinks, that russians actualy stolen they history.
Peter 1 alsou conviced european geographs to expand Europ’s teritory to alsou include Moscow state.
Realy Russia history start with Ivan the Cruel or Peter 1, wich is not more longer than USA history.
Greatest mith is 1000 years of Russia history.
1000 years of history have Kiev Rus, country with the same capital as modern day Ukrain, and most of its teritory in Ukrain and Belorus. Kiev Rus was the most literate country of era, where is found children sent mail, written on birch bark.
Throught only when tsar Peter 1, changed his state name from Muskovy (which him tought as backwards) to Russia, his state started to have 1000 years of history. In old maps modern day Russia was labeled as Muscovy, Moscow state, Tartaria or Moscow Ulus, but modern Ukraine as Rus or Ruthenia. So some ukrainians thinks, that russians actualy stolen they history.
Peter 1 alsou conviced european geographs to expand Europ’s teritory to alsou include Moscow state.
Realy Russia history start with Ivan the Cruel or Peter 1, wich is not more longer than USA history.
МАРТЫШКА И ОЧКИ
Мартышка к старости слаба глазами стала;
А у людей она слыхала,
Что это зло еще не так большой руки:
Лишь стоит завести Очки.
Очков с полдюжины себе она достала;
Вертит Очками так и сяк:
То к темю их прижмет, то их на хвост нанижет,
То их понюхает, то их полижет;
Очки не действуют никак.
“Тьфу пропасть! – говорит она,- и тот дурак,
Кто слушает людских всех врак:
Всё про Очки лишь мне налгали;
А проку на-волос нет в них”.
Мартышка тут с досады и с печали
О камень так хватила их,
Что только брызги засверкали.
___
К несчастью, то ж бывает у людей:
Как ни полезна вещь,- цены не зная ей,
Невежда про нее свой толк все к худу клонит;
А ежели невежда познатней,
Так он ее еще и гонит.
МАРТЫШКА И ОЧКИ
Мартышка к старости слаба глазами стала;
А у людей она слыхала,
Что это зло еще не так большой руки:
Лишь стоит завести Очки.
Очков с полдюжины себе она достала;
Вертит Очками так и сяк:
То к темю их прижмет, то их на хвост нанижет,
То их понюхает, то их полижет;
Очки не действуют никак.
“Тьфу пропасть! – говорит она,- и тот дурак,
Кто слушает людских всех врак:
Всё про Очки лишь мне налгали;
А проку на-волос нет в них”.
Мартышка тут с досады и с печали
О камень так хватила их,
Что только брызги засверкали.
___
К несчастью, то ж бывает у людей:
Как ни полезна вещь,- цены не зная ей,
Невежда про нее свой толк все к худу клонит;
А ежели невежда познатней,
Так он ее еще и гонит.
МАРТЫШКА И ОЧКИ
Мартышка к старости слаба глазами стала;
А у людей она слыхала,
Что это зло еще не так большой руки:
Лишь стоит завести Очки.
Очков с полдюжины себе она достала;
Вертит Очками так и сяк:
То к темю их прижмет, то их на хвост нанижет,
То их понюхает, то их полижет;
Очки не действуют никак.
“Тьфу пропасть! – говорит она,- и тот дурак,
Кто слушает людских всех врак:
Всё про Очки лишь мне налгали;
А проку на-волос нет в них”.
Мартышка тут с досады и с печали
О камень так хватила их,
Что только брызги засверкали.
___
К несчастью, то ж бывает у людей:
Как ни полезна вещь,- цены не зная ей,
Невежда про нее свой толк все к худу клонит;
А ежели невежда познатней,
Так он ее еще и гонит.
Иван: a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more; it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Иван: a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more; it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Иван: a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more; it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Иван: a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more; it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Dear Иван Крылов fan,
due to poor russian education you probably missed that Ivan Krylov basnia in most cases is a poor translation of Jean de La Fontaine.
Dear Jean de La Fontaine fan,
due to poor USian education you probably missed that Jean de La Fontaine contes in most cases is a poor translation of Aesop.
Seriously, dude, but then you just don’t know who Aesop was? And that Aesop was the guy inspiring Krylov just as well as La Fontaine? And you just keep on living in your imaginary world, huh?:))
How typical for an LR supporter:)))
Poor, poor American невежда! No wonder this tale signifies nothing to you. You can’t imagine how badly you’ve embarassed yourself with this arrogant comment. Hating everything Russian you can’t even begin to comprehend the depth of the Russian culture. Let me tell you something – ‘an idiot, full of sound and fury’, Ivan Krylov, is one of the classics of the Russian poetry.
Only a Russian can appreciate how perfectly this poem fits your case. Go ahead, grab a dictionary, try to understand what it says there. Keep in mind, though, it was written in the early XIXth century, some of the expressions may not appear easily understandable to a superficial reader like yourself.
‘You don’t really know Russia unless you read La Russophobe!’ Duh!
Now make me believe YOU know Russia!
Poor, poor American невежда! No wonder this tale signifies nothing to you. You can’t imagine how badly you’ve embarassed yourself with this arrogant comment. Hating everything Russian you can’t even begin to comprehend the depth of the Russian culture. Let me tell you something – ‘an idiot, full of sound and fury’, Ivan Krylov, is one of the classics of the Russian poetry.
Only a Russian can appreciate how perfectly this poem fits your case. Go ahead, grab a dictionary, try to understand what it says there. Keep in mind, though, it was written in the early XIXth century, some of the expressions may not appear easily understandable to a superficial reader like yourself.
‘You don’t really know Russia unless you read La Russophobe!’ Duh!
Now make me believe YOU know Russia!
Poor, poor American невежда! No wonder this tale signifies nothing to you. You can’t imagine how badly you’ve embarassed yourself with this arrogant comment. Hating everything Russian you can’t even begin to comprehend the depth of the Russian culture. Let me tell you something – ‘an idiot, full of sound and fury’, Ivan Krylov, is one of the classics of the Russian poetry.
Only a Russian can appreciate how perfectly this poem fits your case. Go ahead, grab a dictionary, try to understand what it says there. Keep in mind, though, it was written in the early XIXth century, some of the expressions may not appear easily understandable to a superficial reader like yourself.
‘You don’t really know Russia unless you read La Russophobe!’ Duh!
Now make me believe YOU know Russia!
Poor, poor American невежда! No wonder this tale signifies nothing to you. You can’t imagine how badly you’ve embarassed yourself with this arrogant comment. Hating everything Russian you can’t even begin to comprehend the depth of the Russian culture. Let me tell you something – ‘an idiot, full of sound and fury’, Ivan Krylov, is one of the classics of the Russian poetry.
Only a Russian can appreciate how perfectly this poem fits your case. Go ahead, grab a dictionary, try to understand what it says there. Keep in mind, though, it was written in the early XIXth century, some of the expressions may not appear easily understandable to a superficial reader like yourself.
‘You don’t really know Russia unless you read La Russophobe!’ Duh!
Now make me believe YOU know Russia!
Poor, poor American невежда! No wonder this tale signifies nothing to you. You can’t imagine how badly you’ve embarassed yourself with this arrogant comment. Hating everything Russian you can’t even begin to comprehend the depth of the Russian culture. Let me tell you something – ‘an idiot, full of sound and fury’, Ivan Krylov, is one of the classics of the Russian poetry.
Only a Russian can appreciate how perfectly this poem fits your case. Go ahead, grab a dictionary, try to understand what it says there. Keep in mind, though, it was written in the early XIXth century, some of the expressions may not appear easily understandable to a superficial reader like yourself.
‘You don’t really know Russia unless you read La Russophobe!’ Duh!
Now make me believe YOU know Russia!
Poor, poor American невежда! No wonder this tale signifies nothing to you. You can’t imagine how badly you’ve embarassed yourself with this arrogant comment. Hating everything Russian you can’t even begin to comprehend the depth of the Russian culture. Let me tell you something – ‘an idiot, full of sound and fury’, Ivan Krylov, is one of the classics of the Russian poetry.
Only a Russian can appreciate how perfectly this poem fits your case. Go ahead, grab a dictionary, try to understand what it says there. Keep in mind, though, it was written in the early XIXth century, some of the expressions may not appear easily understandable to a superficial reader like yourself.
‘You don’t really know Russia unless you read La Russophobe!’ Duh!
Now make me believe YOU know Russia!
Poor, poor American невежда! No wonder this tale signifies nothing to you. You can’t imagine how badly you’ve embarassed yourself with this arrogant comment. Hating everything Russian you can’t even begin to comprehend the depth of the Russian culture. Let me tell you something – ‘an idiot, full of sound and fury’, Ivan Krylov, is one of the classics of the Russian poetry.
Only a Russian can appreciate how perfectly this poem fits your case. Go ahead, grab a dictionary, try to understand what it says there. Keep in mind, though, it was written in the early XIXth century, some of the expressions may not appear easily understandable to a superficial reader like yourself.
‘You don’t really know Russia unless you read La Russophobe!’ Duh!
Now make me believe YOU know Russia!
Poor, poor American невежда! No wonder this tale signifies nothing to you. You can’t imagine how badly you’ve embarassed yourself with this arrogant comment. Hating everything Russian you can’t even begin to comprehend the depth of the Russian culture. Let me tell you something – ‘an idiot, full of sound and fury’, Ivan Krylov, is one of the classics of the Russian poetry.
Only a Russian can appreciate how perfectly this poem fits your case. Go ahead, grab a dictionary, try to understand what it says there. Keep in mind, though, it was written in the early XIXth century, some of the expressions may not appear easily understandable to a superficial reader like yourself.
‘You don’t really know Russia unless you read La Russophobe!’ Duh!
Now make me believe YOU know Russia!
Guys: Its much simpler than what you all think. This woman’s real name is Claire. She spent time in Moscow and tried dating a number of Russian men. She got kicked around a bit and then she tried with some American expats in Moscow. No one paid her any attention and one night she threw herself at Mark Ames who was dead drunk but not pissed enough to sleep with am American. The rejection and frustration have been building up and you can all see that her hatred has turned her into a compulsive obsessive maniac. This woman spends more than 5-6 hours a day posting on this stupid blog and then goes to other blogs to post comments so people will notice her.
She is desperate for attention. All this time she lives on junk food and has become obese. She has not had sex in two years and she has pictures of Mark Ames and Limonov all over her wall.
Please do not hate her. She is really sick and pathetic.
“She is desperate for attention.”
Seems I know how it’s called in the internets:))
Guys: Its much simpler than what you all think. This woman’s real name is Claire. She spent time in Moscow and tried dating a number of Russian men. She got kicked around a bit and then she tried with some American expats in Moscow. No one paid her any attention and one night she threw herself at Mark Ames who was dead drunk but not pissed enough to sleep with am American. The rejection and frustration have been building up and you can all see that her hatred has turned her into a compulsive obsessive maniac. This woman spends more than 5-6 hours a day posting on this stupid blog and then goes to other blogs to post comments so people will notice her.
She is desperate for attention. All this time she lives on junk food and has become obese. She has not had sex in two years and she has pictures of Mark Ames and Limonov all over her wall.
Please do not hate her. She is really sick and pathetic.
Guys: Its much simpler than what you all think. This woman’s real name is Claire. She spent time in Moscow and tried dating a number of Russian men. She got kicked around a bit and then she tried with some American expats in Moscow. No one paid her any attention and one night she threw herself at Mark Ames who was dead drunk but not pissed enough to sleep with am American. The rejection and frustration have been building up and you can all see that her hatred has turned her into a compulsive obsessive maniac. This woman spends more than 5-6 hours a day posting on this stupid blog and then goes to other blogs to post comments so people will notice her.
She is desperate for attention. All this time she lives on junk food and has become obese. She has not had sex in two years and she has pictures of Mark Ames and Limonov all over her wall.
Please do not hate her. She is really sick and pathetic.
Here is nice example of democracy in russia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnqp9LQ5dQU&mode=related&search=
Here is nice example of democracy in russia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnqp9LQ5dQU&mode=related&search=
Here is nice example of democracy in russia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnqp9LQ5dQU&mode=related&search=
Actualy I hardly could imagine any western woman, who would want to date with russian, not european;))))
There are quite a few, believe me:)))
Actualy I hardly could imagine any western woman, who would want to date with russian, not european;))))
Actualy I hardly could imagine any western woman, who would want to date with russian, not european;))))
The entire premise of this website is so grossly racist and disgusting, it’s beyond any justification. The racism of this site and messages like this blog post completely and utterly discredit the messenger. It’s one thing to criticize the actions of the Russian government and Russian policies, but to declare the Russian people as inferior, evil, greedy, and worthy of complete destruction is probably indicatative of some sort of delusional mental retardation.
The entire premise of this website is so grossly racist and disgusting, it’s beyond any justification. The racism of this site and messages like this blog post completely and utterly discredit the messenger. It’s one thing to criticize the actions of the Russian government and Russian policies, but to declare the Russian people as inferior, evil, greedy, and worthy of complete destruction is probably indicatative of some sort of delusional mental retardation.
The entire premise of this website is so grossly racist and disgusting, it’s beyond any justification. The racism of this site and messages like this blog post completely and utterly discredit the messenger. It’s one thing to criticize the actions of the Russian government and Russian policies, but to declare the Russian people as inferior, evil, greedy, and worthy of complete destruction is probably indicatative of some sort of delusional mental retardation.
Let’s look at from the perspective of someone who believes in the truth and is capable of rational thought.
If Russia is not an oil superpower, and its oil is so worthless, then why is the west so worried about Russians using oil as a political weapon? If this reserve if so small, then why would there be any cause for concern? Russia has used its oil wealth to nearly triple per capita income in less than a decade, and to expand the nation’s GDP by around 50% since 1998. To say this oil is nearly worthless is complete and utter nonsense. In reality, Russia is the country the 2nd largest oil supply on the planet, in fact, some recent statistics indicate that Russia has actually surpassed Saudi Arabia as the #1 prodocer. Many experts go even further, and say even this large oil supply is merely scratching the surface of the oil present in Sibera. So therefore, you’re a liar unless by “many countries have much more” oil than Russia, you meant “only one country, if that.”
Lets go over some other points. Simply because America has won more Nobel prizes does not mean Russia’s accomplishments in art and science were not great and many. Just like because there are probably bigger morons out there than you, doesn’t mean you’re still not definitely a moron.
A lot of the other myth and reality spiels you have are also lies and in many cases, a “myth” has little to do with the “reality” you associate it with.
Anyone who has read enough about Russian history knows for an absolute fact that there are countless examples of Russians who fought bravely and with devotion to their country. To universally deny something so manifestly factual only further proves your delusion and lack of rational capacity.
Russia’s landmass isn’t nearly as troublesome as you imply, for one thing, it guarantees the massive oil reserves mentioned earlier.
Also, how is it you can claim Russia gets worse every year? Are improving standards of living, falling rates of inflation, and economic growth somehow indicative of things getting worse in your nonsensical fantasy world?
For the fun of it, lets take a peek at your utterly false motto which implies Russia is the worst country in the world. What would the factual basis be for that? According to the Human Development Index, the majority of the countries in the world are worse places than Russia. There are countries who currenly are worse human rights violators than Russia is, countries worse off economically, countries that have less freedom for their citizens, countries with lower standards of living.
And now for the conclusion. Your blatantly apparent racism, delusion, and irrationality will probably not allow to accept any of these facts, so a nice parting thought for you is that what you’re doing here is utterly worthless and useless. Russia will continue to exist, long after you’re old and dead, and this joke of a website goes away as it rightfully should. Fact is, you’re not even slightly better than any Russian, not even a homeless, drug-addicted, AIDS-stricked one. You can fume and rage, and waste hours upon hours on this completely unproductive nonsenese, and you will never accomplish a thing. It’s both pitiful and funny how committed you are to such ludicrous goals, and how disappointed you will be that Russia will outlive you countless times over.
Let’s look at from the perspective of someone who believes in the truth and is capable of rational thought.
If Russia is not an oil superpower, and its oil is so worthless, then why is the west so worried about Russians using oil as a political weapon? If this reserve if so small, then why would there be any cause for concern? Russia has used its oil wealth to nearly triple per capita income in less than a decade, and to expand the nation’s GDP by around 50% since 1998. To say this oil is nearly worthless is complete and utter nonsense. In reality, Russia is the country the 2nd largest oil supply on the planet, in fact, some recent statistics indicate that Russia has actually surpassed Saudi Arabia as the #1 prodocer. Many experts go even further, and say even this large oil supply is merely scratching the surface of the oil present in Sibera. So therefore, you’re a liar unless by “many countries have much more” oil than Russia, you meant “only one country, if that.”
Lets go over some other points. Simply because America has won more Nobel prizes does not mean Russia’s accomplishments in art and science were not great and many. Just like because there are probably bigger morons out there than you, doesn’t mean you’re still not definitely a moron.
A lot of the other myth and reality spiels you have are also lies and in many cases, a “myth” has little to do with the “reality” you associate it with.
Anyone who has read enough about Russian history knows for an absolute fact that there are countless examples of Russians who fought bravely and with devotion to their country. To universally deny something so manifestly factual only further proves your delusion and lack of rational capacity.
Russia’s landmass isn’t nearly as troublesome as you imply, for one thing, it guarantees the massive oil reserves mentioned earlier.
Also, how is it you can claim Russia gets worse every year? Are improving standards of living, falling rates of inflation, and economic growth somehow indicative of things getting worse in your nonsensical fantasy world?
For the fun of it, lets take a peek at your utterly false motto which implies Russia is the worst country in the world. What would the factual basis be for that? According to the Human Development Index, the majority of the countries in the world are worse places than Russia. There are countries who currenly are worse human rights violators than Russia is, countries worse off economically, countries that have less freedom for their citizens, countries with lower standards of living.
And now for the conclusion. Your blatantly apparent racism, delusion, and irrationality will probably not allow to accept any of these facts, so a nice parting thought for you is that what you’re doing here is utterly worthless and useless. Russia will continue to exist, long after you’re old and dead, and this joke of a website goes away as it rightfully should. Fact is, you’re not even slightly better than any Russian, not even a homeless, drug-addicted, AIDS-stricked one. You can fume and rage, and waste hours upon hours on this completely unproductive nonsenese, and you will never accomplish a thing. It’s both pitiful and funny how committed you are to such ludicrous goals, and how disappointed you will be that Russia will outlive you countless times over.
Let’s look at from the perspective of someone who believes in the truth and is capable of rational thought.
If Russia is not an oil superpower, and its oil is so worthless, then why is the west so worried about Russians using oil as a political weapon? If this reserve if so small, then why would there be any cause for concern? Russia has used its oil wealth to nearly triple per capita income in less than a decade, and to expand the nation’s GDP by around 50% since 1998. To say this oil is nearly worthless is complete and utter nonsense. In reality, Russia is the country the 2nd largest oil supply on the planet, in fact, some recent statistics indicate that Russia has actually surpassed Saudi Arabia as the #1 prodocer. Many experts go even further, and say even this large oil supply is merely scratching the surface of the oil present in Sibera. So therefore, you’re a liar unless by “many countries have much more” oil than Russia, you meant “only one country, if that.”
Lets go over some other points. Simply because America has won more Nobel prizes does not mean Russia’s accomplishments in art and science were not great and many. Just like because there are probably bigger morons out there than you, doesn’t mean you’re still not definitely a moron.
A lot of the other myth and reality spiels you have are also lies and in many cases, a “myth” has little to do with the “reality” you associate it with.
Anyone who has read enough about Russian history knows for an absolute fact that there are countless examples of Russians who fought bravely and with devotion to their country. To universally deny something so manifestly factual only further proves your delusion and lack of rational capacity.
Russia’s landmass isn’t nearly as troublesome as you imply, for one thing, it guarantees the massive oil reserves mentioned earlier.
Also, how is it you can claim Russia gets worse every year? Are improving standards of living, falling rates of inflation, and economic growth somehow indicative of things getting worse in your nonsensical fantasy world?
For the fun of it, lets take a peek at your utterly false motto which implies Russia is the worst country in the world. What would the factual basis be for that? According to the Human Development Index, the majority of the countries in the world are worse places than Russia. There are countries who currenly are worse human rights violators than Russia is, countries worse off economically, countries that have less freedom for their citizens, countries with lower standards of living.
And now for the conclusion. Your blatantly apparent racism, delusion, and irrationality will probably not allow to accept any of these facts, so a nice parting thought for you is that what you’re doing here is utterly worthless and useless. Russia will continue to exist, long after you’re old and dead, and this joke of a website goes away as it rightfully should. Fact is, you’re not even slightly better than any Russian, not even a homeless, drug-addicted, AIDS-stricked one. You can fume and rage, and waste hours upon hours on this completely unproductive nonsenese, and you will never accomplish a thing. It’s both pitiful and funny how committed you are to such ludicrous goals, and how disappointed you will be that Russia will outlive you countless times over.
http://www.michaelparenti.org/HiddenHolocaust.html
Hidden Holocaust, USA
From Dirty Truths by Michael Parenti
“I’ve had grown men wet this floor with tears, begging for a job. We have to pray with some to keep them from killing themselves. So many say they just want to die,” says Charlie Tarrance, a director of a private social agency. His task is to deal with growing lines of despairing people looking for jobs, housing, and food. The place is Gadsden, Alabama, but it could be anywhere in the United States.
It could be Washington, D.C., at a Safeway supermarket a mile or so from the White House where an elderly man is crying and holding a can of dog food. When asked what’s wrong, he says, “I’m hungry. I’m hungry.”
It could be New York City, where a woman begins screaming at the landlord who evicts her and her several children. The Bureau of Child Welfare takes her children, which distresses her all the more. She herself is transported to a New York mental hospital crying angrily—only to be diagnosed and committed by the all-knowing psychiatrists as a “paranoid schizophrenic.”
There is misery and cruelty in the land. As U.S. leaders move determinedly toward their free-market Final Solution, stories abound of hunger, pain, and desperation. Such things have existed for a long time. Social pathology is as much a part of this society as crime and capitalism. But life is getting ever more difficult for many.
Some Grim Statistics
Conservatives are fond of telling us what a wonderful, happy, prosperous nation this is. The only thing that matches their love of country is the remarkable indifference they show toward the people who live in it. To their ears the anguished cries of the dispossessed sound like the peevish whines of malcontents. They denounce as “bleeding hearts” those of us who criticize existing conditions, who show some concern for our fellow citizens. But the dirty truth is that there exists a startling amount of hardship, abuse, affliction, illness, violence, and pathology in this country. The figures reveal a casualty list that runs into many millions. Consider the following estimates. In any one year:
27,000 Americans commit suicide.
5,000 attempt suicide; some estimates are higher.
26,000 die from fatal accidents in the home.
23,000 are murdered.
85,000 are wounded by firearms.
38,000 of these die, including 2,600 children.
13,000,000 are victims of crimes including assault, rape, armed robbery, burglary, larceny, and arson.
135,000 children take guns to school.
5,500,000 people are arrested for all offenses (not including traffic violations).
125,000 die prematurely of alcohol abuse.
473,000 die prematurely from tobacco-related illnesses; 53,000 of these are nonsmokers.
6,500,000 use heroin, crack, speed, PCP, cocaine or some other hard drug on a regular basis.
5,000+ die from illicit drug use. Thousands suffer serious debilitations.
1,000+ die from sniffing household substances found under the kitchen sink. About 20 percent of all eighth-graders have “huffed” toxic substances. Thousands suffer permanent neurological damage.
31,450,000 use marijuana; 3,000,000 of whom are heavy usuers.
37,000,000, or one out of every six Americans, regularly use emotion controlling medical drugs. The users are mostly women. The pushers are doctors; the suppliers are pharmaceutical companies; the profits are stupendous.
2,000,000 nonhospitalized persons are given powerful mind-control drugs, sometimes described as “chemical straitjackets.”
5,000 die from psychoactive drug treatments.
200,000 are subjected to electric shock treatments that are injurious to the brain and nervous system.
600 to 1,000 are lobotomized, mostly women.
25,000,000, or one out of every 10 Americans, seek help from psychiatric, psychotherapeutic, or medical sources for mental and emotional problems, at a cost of over $4 billion annually.
6,800,000 turn to nonmedical services, such as ministers, welfare agencies, and social counselors for help with emotional troubles. In all, some 80,000,000 have sought some kind of psychological counseling in their lifetimes.
1,300,000 suffer some kind of injury related to treatment at hospitals.
2,000,000 undergo unnecessary surgical operations; 10,000 of whom die from the surgery.
180,000 die from adverse reactions to all medical treatments, more than are killed by airline and automobile accidents combined.
14,000+ die from overdoses of legal prescription drugs.
45,000 are killed in auto accidents. Yet more cars and highways are being built while funding for safer forms of mass transportation is reduced.
1,800,000 sustain nonfatal injuries from auto accidents; but 150,000 of these auto injury victims suffer permanent impairments.
126,000 children are born with a major birth defect, mostly due to insufficient prenatal care, nutritional deficiency, environmental toxicity, or maternal drug addiction.
2,900,000 children are reportedly subjected to serious neglect or abuse, including physical torture and deliberate starvation.
5,000 children are killed by parents or grandparents.
30,000 or more children are left permanently physically disabled from abuse and neglect. Child abuse in the United States afflicts more children each year than leukemia, automobile accidents, and infectious diseases combined. With growing unemployment, incidents of abuse by jobless parents is increasing dramatically.
1,000,000 children run away from home, mostly because of abusive treatment, including sexual abuse, from parents and other adults. Of the many sexually abused children among runaways, 83 percent come from white families.
150,000 children are reported missing.
50,000 of these simply vanish. Their ages range from one year to mid-teens. According to the New York Times, “Some of these are dead, perhaps half of the John and Jane Does annually buried in this country are unidentified kids.”
900,000 children, some as young as seven years old, are engaged in child labor in the United States, serving as underpaid farm hands, dishwashers, laundry workers, and domestics for as long as ten hours a day in violation of child labor laws.
2,000,000 to 4,000,00 women are battered. Domestic violence is the single largest cause of injury and second largest cause of death to U.S. women.
700,000 women are raped, one every 45 seconds.
5,000,000 workers are injured on the job; 150,000 of whom suffer permanent work-related disabilities, including maiming, paralysis, impaired vision, damaged hearing, and sterility.
100,000 become seriously ill from work-related diseases, including black lung, brown lung, cancer, and tuberculosis.
14,000 are killed on the job; about 90 percent are men.
100,000 die prematurely from work-related diseases.
60,000 are killed by toxic environmental pollutants or contaminants in food, water, or air.
4,000 die from eating contaminated meat.
20,000 others suffer from poisoning by E.coli 0157-H7, the mutant bacteria found in contaminated meat that generally leads to lifelong physical and mental health problems. A more thorough meat inspection with new technologies could eliminate most instances of contamination–so would vegetarianism.
At present:
5,100,000 are behind bars or on probation or parole; 2,700,000 of these are either locked up in county, state or federal prisons or under legal supervision. Each week 1,600 more people go to jail than leave. The prison population has skyrocketed over 200 percent since 1980. Over 40 percent of inmates are jailed on nonviolent drug related crimes. African Americans constitute 13 percent of drug users but 35 percent of drug arrests, 55 percent of drug convictions and 74 percent of prison sentences. For nondrug offenses, African Americans get prison terms that average about 10 percent longer than Caucasians for similar crimes.
15,000+ have tuberculosis, with the numbers growing rapidly; 10,000,000 or more carry the tuberculosis bacilli, with large numbers among the economically deprived or addicted.
10,000,000 people have serious drinking problems; alcoholism is on the rise.
16,000,000 have diabetes, up from 11,000,000 in 1983 as Americans get more sedentary and sugar addicted. Left untreated, diabetes can lead to blindness, kidney failure and nerve damage.
160,000 will die from diabetes this year.
280,000 are institutionalized for mental illness or mental retardation. Many of these are forced into taking heavy doses of mind control drugs.
255,000 mentally ill or retarded have been summarily released in recent years. Many of the “deinstitutionalized” are now in flophouses or wandering the streets.
3,000,000 or more suffer cerebral and physical handicaps including paralysis, deafness, blindness, and lesser disabilities. A disproportionate number of them are poor. Many of these disabilities could have been corrected with early treatment or prevented with better living conditions.
2,400,000 million suffer from some variety of seriously incapacitating chronic fatigue syndrome.
10,000,000+ suffer from symptomatic asthma, an increase of 145 percent from 1990 to 1995, largely due to the increasingly polluted quality of the air we breathe.
40,000,000 or more are without health insurance or protection from catastrophic illness.
1,800,000 elderly who live with their families are subjected to serious abuse such as forced confinement, underfeeding, and beatings. The mistreatment of elderly people by their children and other close relatives grows dramatically as economic conditions worsen.
1,126,000 of the elderly live in nursing homes. A large but undetermined number endure conditions of extreme neglect, filth, and abuse in homes that are run with an eye to extracting the highest possible profit.
1,000,000 or more children are kept in orphanages, reformatories, and adult prisons. Most have been arrested for minor transgressions or have committed no crime at all and are jailed without due process. Most are from impoverished backgrounds. Many are subjected to beatings, sexual assault, prolonged solitary confinement, mind control drugs, and in some cases psychosurgery.
1,000,000 are estimated to have AIDS as of 1996; over 250,000 have died of that disease.
950,000 school children are treated with powerful mind control drugs for “hyperactivity” every year–with side effects like weight loss, growth retardation and acute psychosis.
4,000,000 children are growing up with unattended learning disabilities.
4,500,000+ children, or more than half of the 9,000,000 children on welfare, suffer from malnutrition. Many of these suffer brain damage caused by prenatal and infant malnourishment.
40,000,000 persons, or one of every four women and more than one of every ten men, are estimated to have been sexually molested as children, most often between the ages of 9 and 12, usually by close relatives or family acquaintances. Such abuse almost always extends into their early teens and is a part of their continual memory and not a product of memory retrieval in therapy.
7,000,000 to 12,000,000 are unemployed; numbers vary with the business cycle. Increasing numbers of the chronically unemployed show signs of stress and emotional depression.
6,000,000 are in “contingent” jobs, or jobs structured to last only temporarily. About 60 percent of these would prefer permanent employment.
15,000,000 or more are part-time or reduced-time “contract” workers who need full-time jobs and who work without benefits.
3,000,000 additional workers are unemployed but uncounted because their unemployment benefits have run out, or they never qualified for benefits, or they have given up looking for work, or they joined the armed forces because they were unable to find work.
80,000,000 live on incomes estimated by the U.S. Department of Labor as below a “comfortable adequacy”; 35,000,000 of these live below the poverty level.
12,000,000 of those at poverty’s rock bottom suffer from chronic hunger and malnutrition. The majority of the people living at or below the poverty level experience hunger during some portion of the year.
2,000,000 or more are homeless, forced to live on the streets or in makeshift shelters.
160,000,000+ are members of households that are in debt, a sharp increase from the 100 million of less than a decade ago. A majority indicate they have borrowed money not for luxuries but for necessities. Mounting debts threaten a financial crack-up in more and more families.
A Happy Nation?
Obviously these estimates include massive duplications. Many of the 20 million unemployed are among the 35 million below the poverty level. Many of the malnourished children are also among those listed as growing up with untreated learning disabilities and almost all are among the 35 million poor. Many of the 37 million regular users of mind-control drugs also number among the 25 million who seek psychiatric help.
http://www.michaelparenti.org/HiddenHolocaust.html
Hidden Holocaust, USA
From Dirty Truths by Michael Parenti
“I’ve had grown men wet this floor with tears, begging for a job. We have to pray with some to keep them from killing themselves. So many say they just want to die,” says Charlie Tarrance, a director of a private social agency. His task is to deal with growing lines of despairing people looking for jobs, housing, and food. The place is Gadsden, Alabama, but it could be anywhere in the United States.
It could be Washington, D.C., at a Safeway supermarket a mile or so from the White House where an elderly man is crying and holding a can of dog food. When asked what’s wrong, he says, “I’m hungry. I’m hungry.”
It could be New York City, where a woman begins screaming at the landlord who evicts her and her several children. The Bureau of Child Welfare takes her children, which distresses her all the more. She herself is transported to a New York mental hospital crying angrily—only to be diagnosed and committed by the all-knowing psychiatrists as a “paranoid schizophrenic.”
There is misery and cruelty in the land. As U.S. leaders move determinedly toward their free-market Final Solution, stories abound of hunger, pain, and desperation. Such things have existed for a long time. Social pathology is as much a part of this society as crime and capitalism. But life is getting ever more difficult for many.
Some Grim Statistics
Conservatives are fond of telling us what a wonderful, happy, prosperous nation this is. The only thing that matches their love of country is the remarkable indifference they show toward the people who live in it. To their ears the anguished cries of the dispossessed sound like the peevish whines of malcontents. They denounce as “bleeding hearts” those of us who criticize existing conditions, who show some concern for our fellow citizens. But the dirty truth is that there exists a startling amount of hardship, abuse, affliction, illness, violence, and pathology in this country. The figures reveal a casualty list that runs into many millions. Consider the following estimates. In any one year:
27,000 Americans commit suicide.
5,000 attempt suicide; some estimates are higher.
26,000 die from fatal accidents in the home.
23,000 are murdered.
85,000 are wounded by firearms.
38,000 of these die, including 2,600 children.
13,000,000 are victims of crimes including assault, rape, armed robbery, burglary, larceny, and arson.
135,000 children take guns to school.
5,500,000 people are arrested for all offenses (not including traffic violations).
125,000 die prematurely of alcohol abuse.
473,000 die prematurely from tobacco-related illnesses; 53,000 of these are nonsmokers.
6,500,000 use heroin, crack, speed, PCP, cocaine or some other hard drug on a regular basis.
5,000+ die from illicit drug use. Thousands suffer serious debilitations.
1,000+ die from sniffing household substances found under the kitchen sink. About 20 percent of all eighth-graders have “huffed” toxic substances. Thousands suffer permanent neurological damage.
31,450,000 use marijuana; 3,000,000 of whom are heavy usuers.
37,000,000, or one out of every six Americans, regularly use emotion controlling medical drugs. The users are mostly women. The pushers are doctors; the suppliers are pharmaceutical companies; the profits are stupendous.
2,000,000 nonhospitalized persons are given powerful mind-control drugs, sometimes described as “chemical straitjackets.”
5,000 die from psychoactive drug treatments.
200,000 are subjected to electric shock treatments that are injurious to the brain and nervous system.
600 to 1,000 are lobotomized, mostly women.
25,000,000, or one out of every 10 Americans, seek help from psychiatric, psychotherapeutic, or medical sources for mental and emotional problems, at a cost of over $4 billion annually.
6,800,000 turn to nonmedical services, such as ministers, welfare agencies, and social counselors for help with emotional troubles. In all, some 80,000,000 have sought some kind of psychological counseling in their lifetimes.
1,300,000 suffer some kind of injury related to treatment at hospitals.
2,000,000 undergo unnecessary surgical operations; 10,000 of whom die from the surgery.
180,000 die from adverse reactions to all medical treatments, more than are killed by airline and automobile accidents combined.
14,000+ die from overdoses of legal prescription drugs.
45,000 are killed in auto accidents. Yet more cars and highways are being built while funding for safer forms of mass transportation is reduced.
1,800,000 sustain nonfatal injuries from auto accidents; but 150,000 of these auto injury victims suffer permanent impairments.
126,000 children are born with a major birth defect, mostly due to insufficient prenatal care, nutritional deficiency, environmental toxicity, or maternal drug addiction.
2,900,000 children are reportedly subjected to serious neglect or abuse, including physical torture and deliberate starvation.
5,000 children are killed by parents or grandparents.
30,000 or more children are left permanently physically disabled from abuse and neglect. Child abuse in the United States afflicts more children each year than leukemia, automobile accidents, and infectious diseases combined. With growing unemployment, incidents of abuse by jobless parents is increasing dramatically.
1,000,000 children run away from home, mostly because of abusive treatment, including sexual abuse, from parents and other adults. Of the many sexually abused children among runaways, 83 percent come from white families.
150,000 children are reported missing.
50,000 of these simply vanish. Their ages range from one year to mid-teens. According to the New York Times, “Some of these are dead, perhaps half of the John and Jane Does annually buried in this country are unidentified kids.”
900,000 children, some as young as seven years old, are engaged in child labor in the United States, serving as underpaid farm hands, dishwashers, laundry workers, and domestics for as long as ten hours a day in violation of child labor laws.
2,000,000 to 4,000,00 women are battered. Domestic violence is the single largest cause of injury and second largest cause of death to U.S. women.
700,000 women are raped, one every 45 seconds.
5,000,000 workers are injured on the job; 150,000 of whom suffer permanent work-related disabilities, including maiming, paralysis, impaired vision, damaged hearing, and sterility.
100,000 become seriously ill from work-related diseases, including black lung, brown lung, cancer, and tuberculosis.
14,000 are killed on the job; about 90 percent are men.
100,000 die prematurely from work-related diseases.
60,000 are killed by toxic environmental pollutants or contaminants in food, water, or air.
4,000 die from eating contaminated meat.
20,000 others suffer from poisoning by E.coli 0157-H7, the mutant bacteria found in contaminated meat that generally leads to lifelong physical and mental health problems. A more thorough meat inspection with new technologies could eliminate most instances of contamination–so would vegetarianism.
At present:
5,100,000 are behind bars or on probation or parole; 2,700,000 of these are either locked up in county, state or federal prisons or under legal supervision. Each week 1,600 more people go to jail than leave. The prison population has skyrocketed over 200 percent since 1980. Over 40 percent of inmates are jailed on nonviolent drug related crimes. African Americans constitute 13 percent of drug users but 35 percent of drug arrests, 55 percent of drug convictions and 74 percent of prison sentences. For nondrug offenses, African Americans get prison terms that average about 10 percent longer than Caucasians for similar crimes.
15,000+ have tuberculosis, with the numbers growing rapidly; 10,000,000 or more carry the tuberculosis bacilli, with large numbers among the economically deprived or addicted.
10,000,000 people have serious drinking problems; alcoholism is on the rise.
16,000,000 have diabetes, up from 11,000,000 in 1983 as Americans get more sedentary and sugar addicted. Left untreated, diabetes can lead to blindness, kidney failure and nerve damage.
160,000 will die from diabetes this year.
280,000 are institutionalized for mental illness or mental retardation. Many of these are forced into taking heavy doses of mind control drugs.
255,000 mentally ill or retarded have been summarily released in recent years. Many of the “deinstitutionalized” are now in flophouses or wandering the streets.
3,000,000 or more suffer cerebral and physical handicaps including paralysis, deafness, blindness, and lesser disabilities. A disproportionate number of them are poor. Many of these disabilities could have been corrected with early treatment or prevented with better living conditions.
2,400,000 million suffer from some variety of seriously incapacitating chronic fatigue syndrome.
10,000,000+ suffer from symptomatic asthma, an increase of 145 percent from 1990 to 1995, largely due to the increasingly polluted quality of the air we breathe.
40,000,000 or more are without health insurance or protection from catastrophic illness.
1,800,000 elderly who live with their families are subjected to serious abuse such as forced confinement, underfeeding, and beatings. The mistreatment of elderly people by their children and other close relatives grows dramatically as economic conditions worsen.
1,126,000 of the elderly live in nursing homes. A large but undetermined number endure conditions of extreme neglect, filth, and abuse in homes that are run with an eye to extracting the highest possible profit.
1,000,000 or more children are kept in orphanages, reformatories, and adult prisons. Most have been arrested for minor transgressions or have committed no crime at all and are jailed without due process. Most are from impoverished backgrounds. Many are subjected to beatings, sexual assault, prolonged solitary confinement, mind control drugs, and in some cases psychosurgery.
1,000,000 are estimated to have AIDS as of 1996; over 250,000 have died of that disease.
950,000 school children are treated with powerful mind control drugs for “hyperactivity” every year–with side effects like weight loss, growth retardation and acute psychosis.
4,000,000 children are growing up with unattended learning disabilities.
4,500,000+ children, or more than half of the 9,000,000 children on welfare, suffer from malnutrition. Many of these suffer brain damage caused by prenatal and infant malnourishment.
40,000,000 persons, or one of every four women and more than one of every ten men, are estimated to have been sexually molested as children, most often between the ages of 9 and 12, usually by close relatives or family acquaintances. Such abuse almost always extends into their early teens and is a part of their continual memory and not a product of memory retrieval in therapy.
7,000,000 to 12,000,000 are unemployed; numbers vary with the business cycle. Increasing numbers of the chronically unemployed show signs of stress and emotional depression.
6,000,000 are in “contingent” jobs, or jobs structured to last only temporarily. About 60 percent of these would prefer permanent employment.
15,000,000 or more are part-time or reduced-time “contract” workers who need full-time jobs and who work without benefits.
3,000,000 additional workers are unemployed but uncounted because their unemployment benefits have run out, or they never qualified for benefits, or they have given up looking for work, or they joined the armed forces because they were unable to find work.
80,000,000 live on incomes estimated by the U.S. Department of Labor as below a “comfortable adequacy”; 35,000,000 of these live below the poverty level.
12,000,000 of those at poverty’s rock bottom suffer from chronic hunger and malnutrition. The majority of the people living at or below the poverty level experience hunger during some portion of the year.
2,000,000 or more are homeless, forced to live on the streets or in makeshift shelters.
160,000,000+ are members of households that are in debt, a sharp increase from the 100 million of less than a decade ago. A majority indicate they have borrowed money not for luxuries but for necessities. Mounting debts threaten a financial crack-up in more and more families.
A Happy Nation?
Obviously these estimates include massive duplications. Many of the 20 million unemployed are among the 35 million below the poverty level. Many of the malnourished children are also among those listed as growing up with untreated learning disabilities and almost all are among the 35 million poor. Many of the 37 million regular users of mind-control drugs also number among the 25 million who seek psychiatric help.
http://www.michaelparenti.org/HiddenHolocaust.html
Hidden Holocaust, USA
From Dirty Truths by Michael Parenti
“I’ve had grown men wet this floor with tears, begging for a job. We have to pray with some to keep them from killing themselves. So many say they just want to die,” says Charlie Tarrance, a director of a private social agency. His task is to deal with growing lines of despairing people looking for jobs, housing, and food. The place is Gadsden, Alabama, but it could be anywhere in the United States.
It could be Washington, D.C., at a Safeway supermarket a mile or so from the White House where an elderly man is crying and holding a can of dog food. When asked what’s wrong, he says, “I’m hungry. I’m hungry.”
It could be New York City, where a woman begins screaming at the landlord who evicts her and her several children. The Bureau of Child Welfare takes her children, which distresses her all the more. She herself is transported to a New York mental hospital crying angrily—only to be diagnosed and committed by the all-knowing psychiatrists as a “paranoid schizophrenic.”
There is misery and cruelty in the land. As U.S. leaders move determinedly toward their free-market Final Solution, stories abound of hunger, pain, and desperation. Such things have existed for a long time. Social pathology is as much a part of this society as crime and capitalism. But life is getting ever more difficult for many.
Some Grim Statistics
Conservatives are fond of telling us what a wonderful, happy, prosperous nation this is. The only thing that matches their love of country is the remarkable indifference they show toward the people who live in it. To their ears the anguished cries of the dispossessed sound like the peevish whines of malcontents. They denounce as “bleeding hearts” those of us who criticize existing conditions, who show some concern for our fellow citizens. But the dirty truth is that there exists a startling amount of hardship, abuse, affliction, illness, violence, and pathology in this country. The figures reveal a casualty list that runs into many millions. Consider the following estimates. In any one year:
27,000 Americans commit suicide.
5,000 attempt suicide; some estimates are higher.
26,000 die from fatal accidents in the home.
23,000 are murdered.
85,000 are wounded by firearms.
38,000 of these die, including 2,600 children.
13,000,000 are victims of crimes including assault, rape, armed robbery, burglary, larceny, and arson.
135,000 children take guns to school.
5,500,000 people are arrested for all offenses (not including traffic violations).
125,000 die prematurely of alcohol abuse.
473,000 die prematurely from tobacco-related illnesses; 53,000 of these are nonsmokers.
6,500,000 use heroin, crack, speed, PCP, cocaine or some other hard drug on a regular basis.
5,000+ die from illicit drug use. Thousands suffer serious debilitations.
1,000+ die from sniffing household substances found under the kitchen sink. About 20 percent of all eighth-graders have “huffed” toxic substances. Thousands suffer permanent neurological damage.
31,450,000 use marijuana; 3,000,000 of whom are heavy usuers.
37,000,000, or one out of every six Americans, regularly use emotion controlling medical drugs. The users are mostly women. The pushers are doctors; the suppliers are pharmaceutical companies; the profits are stupendous.
2,000,000 nonhospitalized persons are given powerful mind-control drugs, sometimes described as “chemical straitjackets.”
5,000 die from psychoactive drug treatments.
200,000 are subjected to electric shock treatments that are injurious to the brain and nervous system.
600 to 1,000 are lobotomized, mostly women.
25,000,000, or one out of every 10 Americans, seek help from psychiatric, psychotherapeutic, or medical sources for mental and emotional problems, at a cost of over $4 billion annually.
6,800,000 turn to nonmedical services, such as ministers, welfare agencies, and social counselors for help with emotional troubles. In all, some 80,000,000 have sought some kind of psychological counseling in their lifetimes.
1,300,000 suffer some kind of injury related to treatment at hospitals.
2,000,000 undergo unnecessary surgical operations; 10,000 of whom die from the surgery.
180,000 die from adverse reactions to all medical treatments, more than are killed by airline and automobile accidents combined.
14,000+ die from overdoses of legal prescription drugs.
45,000 are killed in auto accidents. Yet more cars and highways are being built while funding for safer forms of mass transportation is reduced.
1,800,000 sustain nonfatal injuries from auto accidents; but 150,000 of these auto injury victims suffer permanent impairments.
126,000 children are born with a major birth defect, mostly due to insufficient prenatal care, nutritional deficiency, environmental toxicity, or maternal drug addiction.
2,900,000 children are reportedly subjected to serious neglect or abuse, including physical torture and deliberate starvation.
5,000 children are killed by parents or grandparents.
30,000 or more children are left permanently physically disabled from abuse and neglect. Child abuse in the United States afflicts more children each year than leukemia, automobile accidents, and infectious diseases combined. With growing unemployment, incidents of abuse by jobless parents is increasing dramatically.
1,000,000 children run away from home, mostly because of abusive treatment, including sexual abuse, from parents and other adults. Of the many sexually abused children among runaways, 83 percent come from white families.
150,000 children are reported missing.
50,000 of these simply vanish. Their ages range from one year to mid-teens. According to the New York Times, “Some of these are dead, perhaps half of the John and Jane Does annually buried in this country are unidentified kids.”
900,000 children, some as young as seven years old, are engaged in child labor in the United States, serving as underpaid farm hands, dishwashers, laundry workers, and domestics for as long as ten hours a day in violation of child labor laws.
2,000,000 to 4,000,00 women are battered. Domestic violence is the single largest cause of injury and second largest cause of death to U.S. women.
700,000 women are raped, one every 45 seconds.
5,000,000 workers are injured on the job; 150,000 of whom suffer permanent work-related disabilities, including maiming, paralysis, impaired vision, damaged hearing, and sterility.
100,000 become seriously ill from work-related diseases, including black lung, brown lung, cancer, and tuberculosis.
14,000 are killed on the job; about 90 percent are men.
100,000 die prematurely from work-related diseases.
60,000 are killed by toxic environmental pollutants or contaminants in food, water, or air.
4,000 die from eating contaminated meat.
20,000 others suffer from poisoning by E.coli 0157-H7, the mutant bacteria found in contaminated meat that generally leads to lifelong physical and mental health problems. A more thorough meat inspection with new technologies could eliminate most instances of contamination–so would vegetarianism.
At present:
5,100,000 are behind bars or on probation or parole; 2,700,000 of these are either locked up in county, state or federal prisons or under legal supervision. Each week 1,600 more people go to jail than leave. The prison population has skyrocketed over 200 percent since 1980. Over 40 percent of inmates are jailed on nonviolent drug related crimes. African Americans constitute 13 percent of drug users but 35 percent of drug arrests, 55 percent of drug convictions and 74 percent of prison sentences. For nondrug offenses, African Americans get prison terms that average about 10 percent longer than Caucasians for similar crimes.
15,000+ have tuberculosis, with the numbers growing rapidly; 10,000,000 or more carry the tuberculosis bacilli, with large numbers among the economically deprived or addicted.
10,000,000 people have serious drinking problems; alcoholism is on the rise.
16,000,000 have diabetes, up from 11,000,000 in 1983 as Americans get more sedentary and sugar addicted. Left untreated, diabetes can lead to blindness, kidney failure and nerve damage.
160,000 will die from diabetes this year.
280,000 are institutionalized for mental illness or mental retardation. Many of these are forced into taking heavy doses of mind control drugs.
255,000 mentally ill or retarded have been summarily released in recent years. Many of the “deinstitutionalized” are now in flophouses or wandering the streets.
3,000,000 or more suffer cerebral and physical handicaps including paralysis, deafness, blindness, and lesser disabilities. A disproportionate number of them are poor. Many of these disabilities could have been corrected with early treatment or prevented with better living conditions.
2,400,000 million suffer from some variety of seriously incapacitating chronic fatigue syndrome.
10,000,000+ suffer from symptomatic asthma, an increase of 145 percent from 1990 to 1995, largely due to the increasingly polluted quality of the air we breathe.
40,000,000 or more are without health insurance or protection from catastrophic illness.
1,800,000 elderly who live with their families are subjected to serious abuse such as forced confinement, underfeeding, and beatings. The mistreatment of elderly people by their children and other close relatives grows dramatically as economic conditions worsen.
1,126,000 of the elderly live in nursing homes. A large but undetermined number endure conditions of extreme neglect, filth, and abuse in homes that are run with an eye to extracting the highest possible profit.
1,000,000 or more children are kept in orphanages, reformatories, and adult prisons. Most have been arrested for minor transgressions or have committed no crime at all and are jailed without due process. Most are from impoverished backgrounds. Many are subjected to beatings, sexual assault, prolonged solitary confinement, mind control drugs, and in some cases psychosurgery.
1,000,000 are estimated to have AIDS as of 1996; over 250,000 have died of that disease.
950,000 school children are treated with powerful mind control drugs for “hyperactivity” every year–with side effects like weight loss, growth retardation and acute psychosis.
4,000,000 children are growing up with unattended learning disabilities.
4,500,000+ children, or more than half of the 9,000,000 children on welfare, suffer from malnutrition. Many of these suffer brain damage caused by prenatal and infant malnourishment.
40,000,000 persons, or one of every four women and more than one of every ten men, are estimated to have been sexually molested as children, most often between the ages of 9 and 12, usually by close relatives or family acquaintances. Such abuse almost always extends into their early teens and is a part of their continual memory and not a product of memory retrieval in therapy.
7,000,000 to 12,000,000 are unemployed; numbers vary with the business cycle. Increasing numbers of the chronically unemployed show signs of stress and emotional depression.
6,000,000 are in “contingent” jobs, or jobs structured to last only temporarily. About 60 percent of these would prefer permanent employment.
15,000,000 or more are part-time or reduced-time “contract” workers who need full-time jobs and who work without benefits.
3,000,000 additional workers are unemployed but uncounted because their unemployment benefits have run out, or they never qualified for benefits, or they have given up looking for work, or they joined the armed forces because they were unable to find work.
80,000,000 live on incomes estimated by the U.S. Department of Labor as below a “comfortable adequacy”; 35,000,000 of these live below the poverty level.
12,000,000 of those at poverty’s rock bottom suffer from chronic hunger and malnutrition. The majority of the people living at or below the poverty level experience hunger during some portion of the year.
2,000,000 or more are homeless, forced to live on the streets or in makeshift shelters.
160,000,000+ are members of households that are in debt, a sharp increase from the 100 million of less than a decade ago. A majority indicate they have borrowed money not for luxuries but for necessities. Mounting debts threaten a financial crack-up in more and more families.
A Happy Nation?
Obviously these estimates include massive duplications. Many of the 20 million unemployed are among the 35 million below the poverty level. Many of the malnourished children are also among those listed as growing up with untreated learning disabilities and almost all are among the 35 million poor. Many of the 37 million regular users of mind-control drugs also number among the 25 million who seek psychiatric help.
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This is Hector,
Out of all the amusing anti-Russian bigoted lies I’ve read here, this one takes the cake.
10 “RUSSOPHILE” TRUTHS:
10)http://bushlibrary.tamu.edu/photos/photos.php?file=P22820-22A.jpg Yeltsin and Bush buddies in counter-revolution. Yeltsin had sold the 70+ years of achievments of Soviet workers to the capitalists, and left the workers living below the poverty line. Russians elected Putin because he wasn’t a useless drunk, and was much more intelligent, but the false hopes for a better future under Putin was just that.
9) Explain to me then, what is the war in Chechnya about? Why were the western capitalists so eager to invest in the oil rich regions of the former Soviet Union? On the contrary oil in Russia is a blessing for the capitalist state, not for the workers who work under slave wages though.
8) By bourgeois standards all of their elections met the image of democratic in the imperialists’ eyes. Russia is a democracy as far as the western imperialists are concerned, despite the rivalry.
7) If Russia and its ruling class are not capitalists, then what are they?
6) Did you know the Nobel prize only came out in the 20th century and applied to only western works?
5) Please provide a source for this empty accusation.
4) Bush breaking with the non-proliferation treaty, and developing more nuclear weapons isn’t a violation?
3) Please elaborate and site sources.
2) Tongue twister. First of all Russian workers successfully overthrew the Czar and later the capitalist provisional government. Led by Vladimir Lenin and the Bolsheviks power was given to the workers. The Bolsheviks then led the fight against the White Army and a U.S led invasion of about 17 countries. Each one was defeated by Lenin, Trotsky, and Tukhachevsky. Then it was the Nazi led invasion, that was successfully repelled by the Red Army. You obviously know know nothing of Russian history. I urge you to read some.
1) Probably the only one listed as an actual myth. Russian nationalists and chauvinists do currently rant about “Great Russia”. But as long as Russia remains capitalists, there is no way forward.
HAIL THE BOLSHEVIK REVOLUTIONARIES!
This is Hector,
Out of all the amusing anti-Russian bigoted lies I’ve read here, this one takes the cake.
10 “RUSSOPHILE” TRUTHS:
10)http://bushlibrary.tamu.edu/photos/photos.php?file=P22820-22A.jpg Yeltsin and Bush buddies in counter-revolution. Yeltsin had sold the 70+ years of achievments of Soviet workers to the capitalists, and left the workers living below the poverty line. Russians elected Putin because he wasn’t a useless drunk, and was much more intelligent, but the false hopes for a better future under Putin was just that.
9) Explain to me then, what is the war in Chechnya about? Why were the western capitalists so eager to invest in the oil rich regions of the former Soviet Union? On the contrary oil in Russia is a blessing for the capitalist state, not for the workers who work under slave wages though.
8) By bourgeois standards all of their elections met the image of democratic in the imperialists’ eyes. Russia is a democracy as far as the western imperialists are concerned, despite the rivalry.
7) If Russia and its ruling class are not capitalists, then what are they?
6) Did you know the Nobel prize only came out in the 20th century and applied to only western works?
5) Please provide a source for this empty accusation.
4) Bush breaking with the non-proliferation treaty, and developing more nuclear weapons isn’t a violation?
3) Please elaborate and site sources.
2) Tongue twister. First of all Russian workers successfully overthrew the Czar and later the capitalist provisional government. Led by Vladimir Lenin and the Bolsheviks power was given to the workers. The Bolsheviks then led the fight against the White Army and a U.S led invasion of about 17 countries. Each one was defeated by Lenin, Trotsky, and Tukhachevsky. Then it was the Nazi led invasion, that was successfully repelled by the Red Army. You obviously know know nothing of Russian history. I urge you to read some.
1) Probably the only one listed as an actual myth. Russian nationalists and chauvinists do currently rant about “Great Russia”. But as long as Russia remains capitalists, there is no way forward.
HAIL THE BOLSHEVIK REVOLUTIONARIES!
This is Hector,
Out of all the amusing anti-Russian bigoted lies I’ve read here, this one takes the cake.
10 “RUSSOPHILE” TRUTHS:
10)http://bushlibrary.tamu.edu/photos/photos.php?file=P22820-22A.jpg Yeltsin and Bush buddies in counter-revolution. Yeltsin had sold the 70+ years of achievments of Soviet workers to the capitalists, and left the workers living below the poverty line. Russians elected Putin because he wasn’t a useless drunk, and was much more intelligent, but the false hopes for a better future under Putin was just that.
9) Explain to me then, what is the war in Chechnya about? Why were the western capitalists so eager to invest in the oil rich regions of the former Soviet Union? On the contrary oil in Russia is a blessing for the capitalist state, not for the workers who work under slave wages though.
8) By bourgeois standards all of their elections met the image of democratic in the imperialists’ eyes. Russia is a democracy as far as the western imperialists are concerned, despite the rivalry.
7) If Russia and its ruling class are not capitalists, then what are they?
6) Did you know the Nobel prize only came out in the 20th century and applied to only western works?
5) Please provide a source for this empty accusation.
4) Bush breaking with the non-proliferation treaty, and developing more nuclear weapons isn’t a violation?
3) Please elaborate and site sources.
2) Tongue twister. First of all Russian workers successfully overthrew the Czar and later the capitalist provisional government. Led by Vladimir Lenin and the Bolsheviks power was given to the workers. The Bolsheviks then led the fight against the White Army and a U.S led invasion of about 17 countries. Each one was defeated by Lenin, Trotsky, and Tukhachevsky. Then it was the Nazi led invasion, that was successfully repelled by the Red Army. You obviously know know nothing of Russian history. I urge you to read some.
1) Probably the only one listed as an actual myth. Russian nationalists and chauvinists do currently rant about “Great Russia”. But as long as Russia remains capitalists, there is no way forward.
HAIL THE BOLSHEVIK REVOLUTIONARIES!
La Russophobe, several of the statements you make here are not true. For example, your statement that Russia has never been govered by anyone other than a king or a person raised under communism. Russia has been govered by many people who wer not kings. Empress Elizabeth, Peter the great’s daughter, for example. She was not a king because a king is a male monarch duhh! There have been several female rulers and people have even ruled as regent in Russia but were not crowned, such as Peter the great’s half sister Sophia Miloslavskaya who govered Russia for seven years. So to say Russia was only govered by “kings” is not a true statement. Also, Russia was governed by the Provisional government of 1917. Prince Georgi Lvov and Alexander Kerensky were not communists, nor did they grow up under communism.
La Russophobe, several of the statements you make here are not true. For example, your statement that Russia has never been govered by anyone other than a king or a person raised under communism. Russia has been govered by many people who wer not kings. Empress Elizabeth, Peter the great’s daughter, for example. She was not a king because a king is a male monarch duhh! There have been several female rulers and people have even ruled as regent in Russia but were not crowned, such as Peter the great’s half sister Sophia Miloslavskaya who govered Russia for seven years. So to say Russia was only govered by “kings” is not a true statement. Also, Russia was governed by the Provisional government of 1917. Prince Georgi Lvov and Alexander Kerensky were not communists, nor did they grow up under communism.
La Russophobe, several of the statements you make here are not true. For example, your statement that Russia has never been govered by anyone other than a king or a person raised under communism. Russia has been govered by many people who wer not kings. Empress Elizabeth, Peter the great’s daughter, for example. She was not a king because a king is a male monarch duhh! There have been several female rulers and people have even ruled as regent in Russia but were not crowned, such as Peter the great’s half sister Sophia Miloslavskaya who govered Russia for seven years. So to say Russia was only govered by “kings” is not a true statement. Also, Russia was governed by the Provisional government of 1917. Prince Georgi Lvov and Alexander Kerensky were not communists, nor did they grow up under communism.
what the hell are you people trying to show with this site.I have never seen such a stupid site in my whole life…You all americans.jews.liberals.traitors t fucking asshole zionists are trying to joke with our nation and with our people cause you don t have as rich culture languege and history like us…keep on motafuckers do your best but dont forget that times is close Russain Nation nearly is gone rise again and kick your ass…how dare you soN of bitces talk about russian nation…OUR TİME İS COMİNG AND WE ARE GONE KİCK YOUR ASS REAL TOUGH.Like in 1945 nazis were on knees praying to us please don t kill me i ll be your dog i ll eat yor shit..But we show you enough mercy. this time we ll send you in the sky in your donkey hell…All slavian nation all Latin america all world will unite against dirty american west europen jewish zionistic emperialism and destroy your NATO destoy your USA and Money in which you trust like God…İn which you can see jewish symbols that fucking pyraid and eye which see everything…your owners are using dolls and givin money and makin profit from orange revolutions..they destroy yugoslavia soviet union…millions of people are dying every year because of you…We are gone kick your ass you are will pray to us want to suck our dick but we ll say sorry we are not as degenerate as you…We will rise again from ruins and rule the world with justice for real..not like you doing every shit under name of democracy human rights and so on..damn who is talking about human rights your owners build THE STATUE OF FREEDOM with SLAVES…Anyway we will rise again and write history again…Cause we are Russians. SLAVA ROSSİİ
what the hell are you people trying to show with this site.I have never seen such a stupid site in my whole life…You all americans.jews.liberals.traitors t fucking asshole zionists are trying to joke with our nation and with our people cause you don t have as rich culture languege and history like us…keep on motafuckers do your best but dont forget that times is close Russain Nation nearly is gone rise again and kick your ass…how dare you soN of bitces talk about russian nation…OUR TİME İS COMİNG AND WE ARE GONE KİCK YOUR ASS REAL TOUGH.Like in 1945 nazis were on knees praying to us please don t kill me i ll be your dog i ll eat yor shit..But we show you enough mercy. this time we ll send you in the sky in your donkey hell…All slavian nation all Latin america all world will unite against dirty american west europen jewish zionistic emperialism and destroy your NATO destoy your USA and Money in which you trust like God…İn which you can see jewish symbols that fucking pyraid and eye which see everything…your owners are using dolls and givin money and makin profit from orange revolutions..they destroy yugoslavia soviet union…millions of people are dying every year because of you…We are gone kick your ass you are will pray to us want to suck our dick but we ll say sorry we are not as degenerate as you…We will rise again from ruins and rule the world with justice for real..not like you doing every shit under name of democracy human rights and so on..damn who is talking about human rights your owners build THE STATUE OF FREEDOM with SLAVES…Anyway we will rise again and write history again…Cause we are Russians. SLAVA ROSSİİ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwDzATryei8
ROGER WATERS “Leaving Beirut”
When I was 17 my mother, bless her heart, fulfilled my summer dream
She handed me the keys to the car
We motored down to Paris, fuelled with Dexedrine and booze
Got bust in Antibes by the cops
And fleeced in Naples by the wops
But everyone was kind to us, we were the English dudes
Our dads had helped them win the war
When we all knew what we were fighting for
But now an Englishman abroad is just a US stooge
The bulldog is a poodle snapping round the scoundrel’s last refuge
Are these the people that we should bomb
Are we so sure they mean us harm
Is this our pleasure, punishment or crime
Is this a mountain that we really want to climb
The road is hard, hard and long
Put down that two by four
This man would never turn you from his door
Oh George! Oh George!
That Texas education must have fucked you up when you were very small
Is gentleness too much for us
Should gentleness be filed along with empathy
We feel for someone else’s child
Every time a smart bomb does its sums and gets it wrong
Someone else’s child dies and equities in defence rise
America, America, please hear us when we call
You got hip-hop, be-bop, hustle and bustle
You got Atticus Finch
You got Jane Russell
You got freedom of speech
You got great beaches, wildernesses and malls
Don’t let the might, the Christian right, fuck it all up
For you and the rest of the world
Not in my name, Tony, you great war leader you
Terror is still terror, whosoever gets to frame the rules
History’s not written by the vanquished or the damned
Now we are Genghis Khan, Lucretia Borghia, Son of Sam
In 1961 they took this child into their home
I wonder what became of them
In the cauldron that was Lebanon
If I could find them now, could I make amends?
How does the story end?…
Comments to the youtube video:
i couldn’t agree more. some of the folks writing here are apparently not well-read, or have limited understanding of how the world works. IMO, the bush doctrine comes closer to being fascism than the Islamic authorities. i speak about how the rest of the world sees us.
Fascists don’t look at themselves. That’s why we need to make it very clear why being an aggressive fascist doesn’t pay
Think this is what Jonh Lennon would do if he was alive by now
it s wonderful!!!the music the lyrics!!!this tour!!my best show ever!!!end off course fuck bush,the puppet in capitalism s hands and the rich american sionist motherfuckers!!!let the world be free in peace!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwDzATryei8
ROGER WATERS “Leaving Beirut”
When I was 17 my mother, bless her heart, fulfilled my summer dream
She handed me the keys to the car
We motored down to Paris, fuelled with Dexedrine and booze
Got bust in Antibes by the cops
And fleeced in Naples by the wops
But everyone was kind to us, we were the English dudes
Our dads had helped them win the war
When we all knew what we were fighting for
But now an Englishman abroad is just a US stooge
The bulldog is a poodle snapping round the scoundrel’s last refuge
Are these the people that we should bomb
Are we so sure they mean us harm
Is this our pleasure, punishment or crime
Is this a mountain that we really want to climb
The road is hard, hard and long
Put down that two by four
This man would never turn you from his door
Oh George! Oh George!
That Texas education must have fucked you up when you were very small
Is gentleness too much for us
Should gentleness be filed along with empathy
We feel for someone else’s child
Every time a smart bomb does its sums and gets it wrong
Someone else’s child dies and equities in defence rise
America, America, please hear us when we call
You got hip-hop, be-bop, hustle and bustle
You got Atticus Finch
You got Jane Russell
You got freedom of speech
You got great beaches, wildernesses and malls
Don’t let the might, the Christian right, fuck it all up
For you and the rest of the world
Not in my name, Tony, you great war leader you
Terror is still terror, whosoever gets to frame the rules
History’s not written by the vanquished or the damned
Now we are Genghis Khan, Lucretia Borghia, Son of Sam
In 1961 they took this child into their home
I wonder what became of them
In the cauldron that was Lebanon
If I could find them now, could I make amends?
How does the story end?…
Comments to the youtube video:
i couldn’t agree more. some of the folks writing here are apparently not well-read, or have limited understanding of how the world works. IMO, the bush doctrine comes closer to being fascism than the Islamic authorities. i speak about how the rest of the world sees us.
Fascists don’t look at themselves. That’s why we need to make it very clear why being an aggressive fascist doesn’t pay
Think this is what Jonh Lennon would do if he was alive by now
it s wonderful!!!the music the lyrics!!!this tour!!my best show ever!!!end off course fuck bush,the puppet in capitalism s hands and the rich american sionist motherfuckers!!!let the world be free in peace!!!
Halo! The babes are here! This is my best site to visit. I make sure I am alone in case I get too hot. Post your favorite link here.
About paragraph 2:
It is the most shameless and insulting lies about the Russians, moreover it is an absurd lies. How could it happen that more than 200 Soviet soldiers during the Great Patriotic War closed embrasures with their bodies. They died for their motherland, and they were true heroes. And how many pilots who rammed German planes when they had no ammo. Aren’t they heroes? There are far more examples of heroism, which prove that the Russians were heroic soldiers.
“Refusing to oppose their government”. There were three great people’s rebellions in Russia: Ivan Bolotnikov’s rebellion (1606-1608), Stepan Razin’s rebellion (1670-1671), Yemelyan Pugachev’s rebellion (1773-1775), also the Dekabrists’ rebellion (14 December, 1825) and February revoltion (1917),+ Antonov’s peasants rebellion (1921), and other numerous smaller rebellions against Bolsheviks during the Civil war in Russia. All of these were anti-governmental rebellions, one of them was successful, people’s rebellions influenced on the governmental policy. So the words “refusing to oppose their government” about the Russians can be considered as a sign of ignorance in history. It is the most shameless and insulting lies about the Russians, moreover it is an absurd lies. How could it happen that more than 200 Soviet soldiers during the Great Patriotic War closed embrasures with their bodies. They died for their motherland, and they were true heroes. And how many pilots who rammed German planes when they had no ammo. Aren’t they heroes? There are far more examples of heroism, which prove that the Russians were heroic soldiers.
About the Russophobic myth 8, about the democratic election:
It is wrong, the election in Russian Constituent Assembly in November in 1917 were democratic, even though some parts of the country, which were occupied by the Germans didn’t participate it. The Bolsheviks got only 23% votes in it, when the Socialist-Revolutionist party got 41% and created a coalition with the Myensheviks and some other national parties, so the coalition got 58% places in the Assembly. That is why the Bolsheviks delayed the beginning of its work, then cut its power, and even though the delegates refused to sign the Bolsheivk resolution and the Bolsheviks and Left Wing of Socialist-Revolutionists left the assembly, and then it was dismissed.
60 thousand people came into the streets to support the Costituent Assembly when it started working (on 5 January, 1918),and the Bolsheviks shot the demonstration, many people were murdered. 60 thousand people came to defend democracy, and it is a fact, and the Constituent Assembly was a democratically elected parliament. And it would be unfair to omit the elections in 1990s in Russia, such as parliamentally elections in 1995, which were recognised as free and fair by the EU observers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_countryIs it appropriate to judge country’s achievements in science and history by the amount of Nobel Prizes?
The authour of the article has forgotten that Japan has fewer Nobel Prize winners(16)than Russia(23), however Japan is comparable to Russia in population. But certainly, this doesn’t mean that Japan or Russia has poor science or literature.
About the first “myth”:
Myth is related to the past or present, but not the future. This word means “a story”. So it is not a myth, but a prediction.
About the fifth “myth”:
Trotski, Stalin, Dzerzhinski, Yagoda, Beria. None of them was an ethnic Russian. It is a well known fact. So this statement is false.
About the seventh “myth”:
Capitalism is an economic system in which wealth, and the means of producing wealth, are privately owned and controlled rather than publicly or state-owned and controlled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
Why should a country be governed by a capitalist? It is not a proof.
One russophile “myth” that may very well be true is that during the Middle Ages or thereabouts Kievan Rus had a level of cultural development that was on par with that of the Loire Valley. Not a minor accomplishment!
OK, I have to comment, because while I am certainly no Russophile or Putin apologist, I am obliged to state some issues.
1. No contest
2. No contest
3. No contest
4. Depends on how you define “Capitalism.” The problem with Russia is that in the post-Soviet years, it mainly had the cutthroat, winners-eat-the-losers system not unlike the early-mid Industrial Revolution but more brutal. Naturally, the governmental advantages the big fish used and the use of some of some power improperly by the ex-Soviet elite like Putin certainly scarred the experiment, but is it truly not capitalism?
5. While I don’t think it is that disputable that Russia has lagged behind the West scientifically in quite a number of areas and for quite some time the literary giants had felt the unpleasant hand of government censorship, does this invalidate all the work of Pushkin, Gogol, Solhenitsyn, Sakharov, and the others?
6. Not only no contest but wholeheartedly agreed, particularly when you consider how many of those “foreign enemies” Russia preyed upon.
7. Russia may not deserve to be in the G-8 purely because of its GDP and CERTAINLY not on the fact of its nuclear power alone (after all, if we added that, we would have to add North Korea and Pakistan as well!), but its size and foreign assets make it difficult to exclude.
8. Possibly. Russia’s size is an important power for it, but with the decline of its population, territorial loss is almost inevitable, and it is almost certainly futile to try and fight for every inch of land.
9. Disagreed. Say what you will about the governments (they are scum, after all), and many certainly were motivated by fear (particularly in WWII and ESPECIALLY in WWI) but these do not explain the entire situation, particularly in WWII when Hitler drove the Russians and the other Soviet peoples into Uncle Joe’s hands when they realized that Hitler would exterminate them rather than merely oppress them.
10. Very disputable. Unless you claim to see the future, you can only claim this is very likely (as I do), but nothing is certain until it passes. And it hasn’t passed yet.
hey everyone! why are you all on this Russophobic propaganda website? After all, there are NO new “discoveries”, these people only continue to parrot american propaganda until more is peddled out by the spin masters of the western world, then they say, ‘thank you sifu for this new knowledge.’ LOL AMERICAN LOSERS
LA RUSSOPHOBE RESPONDS:
So it’s OK to be Americaphobes but not Russophobes? Strange logic, dude.
thank you la russophobe, you are amazingly brave to be doing what you’re doing (it seems like kgb/fsb stops at no cost to silence people brave people such as yourself). It’s Unbelivable how well you’ve been able to understand russia’s national consciousness! Honestly i’ve come to conclusion that nothing will ever help Russia, russian people only now two things: they are silent, cowardly and pitiful under brutal master or they become themselves the most vicious, brutal slave masters. they are the 21st century barbarians, bitter, angry and ready to destory everyone because they themselevs are so miserable. anyway i hope i’m wrong and that russian people will wake up and change something but sense it seems unlikely only hope I have left is that this empire will fall and crumble just as every Evil empire before (Soveit Unino) has crumbled and failed.
i meant russia people only know how to be two things. anyway, your work is admirable :)
I love it that LR hasn’t heard even of Ivan Krylov. I am surprised she knows about Russia at all.
Here is Krylov’s fable applicable to LR:
ЛИСИЦА И ВИНОГРАД (Крылов)
Голодная кума Лиса залезла в сад;
В нем винограду кисти рделись.
У кумушки глаза и зубы разгорелись;
А кисти сочные, как яхонты, горят;
Лишь то беда, висят они высоко:
Отколь и как она к ним ни зайдет,
Хоть видит око,
Да зуб неймет.
Пробившись попусту час целый,
Пошла и говорит с досадою: “Ну что ж!
На взгляд-то он хорош,
Да зелен – ягодки нет зрелой:
Тотчас оскомину набьешь”.
No Michael Tal, it has really not much to do with sour grapes. Russia has committed genocide of chechen people, has kiled THOSUANDS of innocent chechen civillians and still has torture and rape camps. Russia today = Neo-Soviet/Fascist state. They have leveled city of grozny to the ground. Russia’s current government has illegaly invaided Georgia, is occuping two of georgian territorise, has ethnically cleansed out both georgian regions out of georgians and are military occupying it. Russia today kills all journalists who oppose their gov’t. these are just some of the few reasons why russia today is an evil empire, just like Nazi Germany and Soviet Union were. People spoke out against Nazi German state and against Soviet Union, why are they silent about russia? well I am not, world needs to hear how dangerous and murderous russia is today.
> No Michael Tal, it has really not much to do with sour grapes. Russia has committed genocide of chechen people, has kiled THOSUANDS of innocent chechen civillians and still has torture and rape camps.
I am not going to argue against these liars for the 100th time. Too boring.
But if we assumed that this were true, how has USA’s crimes against humanity in Viet Nam, Cambodia, Afghanistan, Somalia, Panama etc and now in Iraq any better?
At least, Russia has a full right to be in Chechnya because Chechnya is a universally recognised part of Russia. But USA’s occupation of Iraq, a foreign country, is an international crime by definition.
> Russia today = Neo-Soviet/Fascist state.
How about USA? What is it equal to? Obama just got a Nobel Prize just for NOT being a genocidist like Bush.
> ‘Why Russian scientists don’t get Nobel prizes’
It is in general an outrage how biased and unfair Nobel Awards are. I personally knew 2 scientists (one Russian and 1 American) who invented/discovered something big, but the Nobel Prize went not to them but to some unworthy people who simply made a trivial application of this big discovery.
Russian scientists have been treated especially unfairly. To illustrate this, we don’t have to go very far. Just look at this year’s Nobel Prize in physiology/medicine awarded last week for the discovery of telomeres, the greatest discovery ever in the field of aging and life extension:
http://www.russia-ic.com/news/show/9014/
Nobel Committee Forgot to Award Russian Scientist
7.October.2009
Recent Nobel Prize in physiology or medicine went to three American scientists for the discovery of how chromosomes are protected by telomeres and the enzyme telomerase.
They investigated molecular mechanisms of cell ageing and showed that the secret of ageing is closely linked with ends of the chromosomes – telomeres – and an enzyme which builds them – telomerase.
Every cell division shortens telomeres, which means length of chromosome ends defines cell age. Awarded research is valuable not only for helping understand ageing mechanisms, but also for searching new ways of treating cancer and some hereditary diseases.
However, some Russian biologists think that the Nobel Committee has forgotten to award Russian biologist Alexey Olovnikov, who suggested that chromosome ends shortened after each division in 1971. First experimental confirmation of his hypothesis appeared 15 years after Olovnikov’s prediction. Current laureates simply confirmed the mechanism of telomere’s working in a cell, which was first described by Alexey Olovnikov.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexey_Olovnikov
Alexey Matveyevich Olovnikov is a Russian biologist. He was the first to recognize the problem of telomere shortening, predict existence of Telomerase and suggest the Telomere hypothesis of aging and the Telomere relations to cancer
———————
In other words, Olovnikov made the whole discovery by himself, using no instrument other than his brilliant brain. It took 15 years for the technology to progress to the point that Olovnikov’s discoveries could be verified in the laboratory. The 3 Americans, who did the routine job of verifying Olovnikov’s theory, got Nobel Prizes, but the Russian genius, who made this discovery 15 years ahead of his time, got nothing.
> No Michael Tal, it has really not much to do with sour grapes.
Sure it does. Just read her posts on th esubject of tennis and culture in general.
But if you’d like, here is a fable even more appropriate to LR, especially to her barking at great people like Masha Sharapova and David Johnson:
Слон и моська
По улицам Слона водили,
Как видно, напоказ, –
Известно, что Слоны в диковинку у нас, –
Так за Слоном толпы зевак ходили.
Отколе ни возьмись, навстречу Моська им.
Увидевши Слона, ну на него метаться,
И лаять, и визжать, и рваться, –
Ну, так и лезет в драку с ним.
«Соседка, перестань срамиться, –
Ей шавка говорит, – тебе ль с Слоном возиться?
Смотри, уж ты хрипишь, а он себе идёт
Вперёд
И лаю твоего совсем не примечает». –
«Эх, эх! – ей Моська отвечает, –
Вот то-то мне и духу придаёт,
Что я, совсем без драки,
Могу попасть в большие забияки.
Пускай же говорят собаки:
«Ай, Моська! знать, она сильна,
Что лает на Слона!»
Russian cartoon: Elephant and Pug, Soyuzmultfilm, 1941
http://img1.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/0/35/123/35123418_Slon_moska04.jpg
<>
I think we shuld add a new definitoin to RUssophilbes, since this seem to be one of the most common behavior of them. Anytime you point out something wrong about Russia, isntead of them to argue against those facts they always bring in “The Evil West” and rumble and blabber something about how the West is worst, when in reality we all know it’s not true.
Michael, you are an idiot, last time I checked USA was not invaiding countries to annex its territories like Russia does, because it’s still stuck in 18 the century Imperialism and Russian army still uses medieval brutality as their methods for invasion. NOT to mention all the other ways USA has conducted itself much better than Russia during its invasion.
> Kate, I may be an “idiot” but only morons don’t know that modern Russia has not annnexed a single square inch of other coutries’ territories. You are welcome to look at the map of Russia: it is exactly the same today as it was in 1992.
I assure you that all countries in the World, even USA, recognise that Chechnya is and has for centuries been the legal part of Russia. The only country that recognised Chechen independence from Russia, was Georgia in 1991, thus giving the full legal right for Abkhazia to be independent as well.
You;’re wrong Michael Tal, why don’t you learn history of the caucaus before making ignorant comments? Abkhazia has been a historical part of Georgia since the Ancient Kingdom of Kolkhs. Georgians are native, indeginious inhabitans of Abkhazia and were the majority there until Russia decided to annex it from Georgia. Chechnya on the ohter hand is a completely different case, Chechens are native just as georigans are in Akbhazia inhabitans of that land and only in late 18th century Russia managed to colonize it. Do you see the difference? not all the conflicts are the same, and it is dumb to apptoach them all in the same way.
Kate,
Prior to 1991, except for a couple of years after the Russian Revolution, there has never been such a sovereign country as sovereign integrated Georgia. There were indeed some long periods of time when the Abkhazian people were occupied by Georgian kingdoms. So what? Abkhazians are people and they deserve not to be occupied.
If you argue that if two lands once belonged together, then they must always do so, then let me remind you that historically, Russia and Ukraine have been part of the same nation for almost the entire History.
So, if Ukrainians have a right to be independent from their Russian “relatives”, then why can’t Abkhazians have a right to be independent from their Georgian “relatives”?
If Abkhazians have no right to call Abkhazia their own home, then what land on Earth can they call “home”? We, Jews, got ourselves a homeland in Palestine, even though we hadn’t lived there much for more than 19 centuries. We need to have a home, and independent home. Abkhazians do too. So, what land can you give them? Australia? Chile? Ivory Coast? Why can’t they have their own country right where they have lived for millennia: in Abkhazia?
abkhazeti was the name for the entire western Georgia at some point,
ancient monuments and architechture in abkhazeti are of georgian origin, have georgian architecture style, and were built by georgians abkhazebi. this leads to a logical conclusion has historically been part of georgian kingdom.
Georgiains have lived in abkhazia for a millennia as well, i told you nobody said that abpsu and abaza ethnicities should not be there, but for you to argue and make up some ridiculous lie that georgians somehow are foreign invaides or abkhazia is completely ridiculous.
Are you saying that Georgian refugees don’t desrve to go back to their homes? If you want to devote yourself to a just cause of why don’t you talk about Chechnya, Ingushetia, and Dagehstan who in fact have nothing to do with Russia and none of these places have ever been culturally Russian.
Kate,
You are very wrong about Georgia, Abkhazia and Ossetia. It is the Georgians who are the most guilty party in this conflict. But this is a very long topic and we have been over it many times. You may be interested in something that I will post later today on the two genocides that Georgians have committed against Ossetians: first, in the 1920s and second, about 20 years ago.
But in any case, Russia has not annexed Abkhazia. On the contrary: Russia has officially recognised Abkahzia as an **independent** and sovereign country, exactly as USA and other NATO countries have recognised Kosovo:
—————————————-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Abkhazia_and_South_Ossetia
Russia’s recognition
On 25 August 2008 the Federation Council and State Duma passed motions calling upon President Dmitry Medvedev to recognise the independence of the two regions and establish diplomatic relations.[14][15]
On 26 August 2008, President Medvedev signed Decrees recognising the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia[16][17] and made the following statement: ” Considering the freely expressed will of the Ossetian and Abkhaz peoples and being guided by the provisions of the UN Charter, the 1970 Declaration on the Principles of International Law Governing Friendly Relations Between States, the CSCE Helsinki Final Act of 1975 and other fundamental international instruments, I signed Decrees on the recognition by the Russian Federation of South Ossetia’s and Abkhazia’s independence. Russia calls on other states to follow its example. This is not an easy choice to make, but it represents the only possibility to save human lives.”[18]
President Medvedev stated that “western countries rushed to recognise Kosovo’s illegal declaration of independence from Serbia. We argued consistently that it would be impossible, after that, to tell the Abkhazians and Ossetians (and dozens of other groups around the world) that what was good for the Kosovo Albanians was not good for them. In international relations, you cannot have one rule for some and another rule for others.”
—————————————-
Even our own LR claims that Abkhazia is indpendent from Russia and has no plans to foreswear independence:
—————————————-
http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2009/09/05/abkhazia-spits-in-russias-eye/
Abkhazia Spits in Russia’s Eye
September 5, 2009
Moscow’s expectations of gratitude from Abkhazia because of Russia’s decision to extend diplomatic recognition to that breakaway republic are proving to be unjustified, according to an influential Russian analyst, and he predicts that Abkhazia will continue to “drift away” from Moscow
—————————————-
So, tell me: which foreign territory has Russia annexed?
michael tal, i honestly don’t want to discuss this any futher with you. If you think Russia care about ethnic minotiries or want to save them from anyone i just have one word for you :CHECHNYA!
Russia is annexign Abkhazia and so Called S. Osseti (Real name Samachablo)
The most guilty party: Russia for starting ethnic conflicts in Georgia, arming and supplying separatist movements in Georgia and encourageing massacare of thosuands of Georgians in Akhbazia and ethnic Cleansing of Georgians from both Abkhazia and S. Ossetia.
Have you heard of Circassian genocide Russians committed killing 1.5 million Circassians? I can also post plenty of infomration on the genocide Russians committed in 19th century against Circassians killing 1.5 million. I can post many info about how Russians encouraged massacare of Georgians in Abkhazia and how they ethnically cleansed out the whole regions from Georgians and to this DAY WILL NOT ALLOW ANY GEORGIAN TO SET FOOT ON THAT LAND.
> Have you heard of Circassian genocide Russians committed killing 1.5 million Circassians in 19th century?
Yes, Kate, I have heard that. The 19th century was quite a cruel century. The ethnic crimes, committed by various colonialist empires, we horrible by 21st century’s standards.
As a colonial power, Russia played its role. However, Russia’s cruelty is nothing compared to what the other major Empires – Britain, Spain, Turkey, even France – have done to their colonies.
And of course, the worst was USA that exterminated millions and millions of Native Americans and stole all their land. On top of that: the slavery, the treatment of Black people like they were animals.
So, the 19th century was the nearest time you had to go to justify your earlier claim:
> Michael, you are an idiot, last time I checked USA was not invaiding countries to annex its territories like Russia does
Surely, Kate, if you ever learned American history, you will find out how in the 19th century USA attacked Spain and Mexico and stole and annexed vast territories: Texas, Arizona, California, Philippines, Florida, Colorado, etc etc.
Look, I started arguing with you because I thought you were a reasonable person, who has been brainwashed by the American propaganda machine. I thought that if I point out to you the real facts, you and I will reach consensus.
But, judging form your replies here, you are not here to reach consensus and establish the truth. You are here because you want to defend at all costs your belief that USA has always been a peaceful, innocent, law-abiding country, that has never invaded other countries, never mistreated other races, and doesn’t spend more on weapons than the rest of the World combined.
Alright, I am getting SICK of having this tripe popping up in my e-mail every day. So, here’s the reply.
“Yes, Kate, I have heard that. The 19th century was quite a cruel century.”
True, but it was in many ways a considerable improvement on the 18th and 17th.
” The ethnic crimes, committed by various colonialist empires, we horrible by 21st century’s standards.”
Depends: no matter WHAT you think of the British in India or the Russian conquest of the Caucasus, things like the Sudan and the Congo certainly give them at least some solid competition. By 21st century Western (and perhaps a few other) standards, that is true. But humanity has yet to evolve much from the primitive brutes that first climbed out of the trees, and even a cursory examination of the Caucasus, Africa, or even some of the monsters to come out of the “Civilized” world demonstrates that WONDERFULLY.
“As a colonial power, Russia played its role. However, Russia’s cruelty is nothing compared to what the other major Empires – Britain, Spain, Turkey, even France – have done to their colonies.”
Very, VERY disputable. While even I (as an Anglo and Francophile, so even I realize I am hardly impartial) realize that the colonization spree that dominated the Victorian era was hardly nice to those under the boot, at the very least there was a very important check on Imperial atrocities in the Western nations you cite than was EVER there in Russia or Turkey: the fact was that if you went around beheading people willy-nilly or generally acting like Ghenghis Khan when there was absolutely no reason to (as more than a few colonials were wont to do regardless of nation), sooner or later it would leek out. And the press would usually destroy you, and the resulting outpour could readily ruin reputations or even lives (sometimes even when not justified). Don’t believe me? Take a look at what happened with the French public and Algeria, with the US public in the Philippines, and the British in South Africa (here’s a hint: there was a VERY good reason so few of the commanders actually came back for WWI, and not merely because of incompetence or age).
This went to the logical extreme, when even King Leopold of the Belgians- a man whose deeds easily deserve to rank on the level of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao- ultimately could not hide the crimes he was committing in his personal fief in the Congo from the prying eyes of the free press in Brussels. And the resulting fervor eventually forced him to hand it over to the far better (if not entirely angelic) hands of the Belgian government or face an open revolt against the Monarchy backed by the military, most of the civilian government, and most of the populace.
Compare this to Turkey or Russia: was there ANY real threat to the government or to careers if you ran afoul of the press by behaving badly in the “frontier?” How many Turkish officials had their careers ruined by being tied to the ethnic cleansing of the Armenians in the leadup to WWI? And how many Russian ones found their career choices “somewhat limited” after being found to have participated in the extremely bloody conflict against the Circassians (which probably dwarfed contemporary conflicts like the Indian mutiny, the Crimean war, and a few others put together)?
THAT more than anything else is the true indicator of a nation’s ethics. When you are hundreds of miles from anywhere surrounded by a populace that cannot resist you, ANYONE can murder, rape, plunder, or do any countless other sadistic things without anyone being able to realistically stop them. It is what happens in the AFTERMATH, when word leaks out, that indicates how a society behaves. And while the Western empires were indeed guilty of numerous crimes, they policed themselves far better than Istanbul, Madrid, Lisbon, or Moscow ever really did. And that is a factor you are overlooking.
“And of course, the worst was USA that exterminated millions and millions of Native Americans”
While this is true, I feel obliged to point out several things:
A. The process had begun LONG (over two and a half centuries, to be precise) before the US even existed, and indeed by then it is entirely likely that half of the Amerindians were already dead from one way or another, and even more were outside American jurisdiction (again, Latin America and Canada).
B. You are also forgetting that the main killer of the Amerindian people- at least physically if not culturally (that, we can agree, was from white encroachment)- were diseases that most simply had no ability to survive. Indeed, it is likely that most of the death came from that. And since it was a biological outbreak in an era before most really understood how disease spread (though granted, there is some evidence that some of the spread was malicious and intended), even the well-meaning could- without knowing- destroy entire communities.
Other than that, I have no contentions with that.
” and stole all their land.”
A. If you want to play finger pointing, remember Siberia, the Caucasus, most of Central Asia, the Russian Far East, Eastern Poland, Finland, Alaska, and certain parts of China.
Then get back to me about the “sealing their land” issue.
B. Everything West of at most the Louisiana Territory and at least the British cession and East of the Mexican Cession can be certainly lumped under that banner. But those two cessions were more akin to either the US buying it from the French who had stolen it from the Spanish who had stolen it from the French who had stolen it from the Spanish (Louisiana), or stealing it from the British who had partially stolen it from the French and the Natives, the former of whom had partially stolen it from the Natives.
The Mexican issue I will get into latter.
Suffice it to say, I would be both stupid and immoral to fail to notice that everything was not all love and sunshine, but it wasn’t Leopold’s Congo or even the turn-of-the-century Philippines either. And I will also point out that if you want to point fingers, keep in mind that not all of them will point to things that will make Russia- or anybody- look good.
” On top of that: the slavery, the treatment of Black people like they were animals.”
True, but to move this conversation ahead a few spots to end it, I will point to the Civil War, Russian treatment of Serfs, and non-American slave practices that were just about as bad if not worse (see Brazil, where a plurality of the slaves actually WENT), you will point to the Czarist decree freeing the Serfs and point out that in the South illegal methods were used to prevent Blacks from voting, and I will point out the dismal freedom the “Freed” Serfs enjoyed even afterwards and the fact that the US eventually acted to crush it, after which I have no clear idea how the argument will go but I am sure we would think of something.
But let’s cut to the chase and accept that every nation has its dark past (even innocent little Switzerland, whose Mercenaries were the terror of Northern Italy and the Rhine for hundreds of years), and trying to uniformly judge the crimes of the past to fit the political necessities of the future tends only to blow up in everybody’s face. If you want to preach to me about the ills of American imperialism (and you might as well, for it is a fascinating topic), you should keep in mind that Mother Russia isn’t perfect either.
“So, the 19th century was the nearest time you had to go to justify your earlier claim:”
???
“Surely, Kate, if you ever learned American history you will find out how in the 19th century USA attacked Spain and Mexico and stole and annexed vast territories: Texas, Arizona, California, Philippines, Florida, Colorado, etc etc.”
The Spanish portion I have no problems with, but Mexico I do, particularly because you fall right into the tried-and-true line that the US provoked or attacked Mexico. Which in one case (the Texan Revolution) is flatly false and the second (1846) if disputable at best.
Bluntly, the Anglos who settled in Texas at the behest of first the Spanish and then the Mexican governments were hardly saints. I think we can safely assess that. To the credit of some, more than a few actually tried to live up to the obligations they signed (free all slaves, convert to Catholicism, speak Espanol, etc), more than a few didn’t, and often flaunted the law freely. Needless to say, that hardly made for angelic relations between Texas and Mexico city, as many will rightfully point out. But that isn’t what caused the revolt.
While the stirrings of revolt had been gathering for a while (during the dictatorship of Bustamante), open revolt only came when the infamous Santa Anna launched a coup against his Vice President (in explicit violation of the Mexican constitution), suspended the Constitution, and began eliminating the independence the provinces had enjoyed under the prior Constitution.
But the fact that most fail to recognize is that the Texans were not along in revolting. During this time, provinces ranging from Texas to the Yucatan formed provisional “Republics” in revolt against Santa Anna’s rule, and indeed the early conflict was vastly more of a Mexican Civil War (with even the Texans favoring a return to the status quo rather than full independence until Santa Anna had actively turned towards them), with Mexican Federalists fighting Santa Anna’s Centralists.
Indeed, even AFTER Texan independence, the old alliances remained rather intact (as shown by an alliance between Texas and the Yucatan to choke off Centralist shipping at Veracruz).
It is in 1846 where the matter gets uglier, mainly because it boils down to one question: were the American soldiers in territory the Mexicans had (grudgingly) allowed them to position a base on or not? Sadly, we don’t exactly know, because nobody really bothered to actually examine the area as per the famous Spot Amendments, but it is rather safe to say that even if they weren’t, the inability of either side to try and resolve the issue peacefully is ultimately what brought on war, and the clear disorganization of both sides show that it was hardly premeditated.
As for Oregon, you are dead wrong, because THAT was solved by one of the various Anglo-American “non-shooing” standoffs that were something of a feature of the 19th century. The ONLY possible part we “stole” from Mexico would be the South, which was highly disputed (indeed, I don’t even know if they really had anyone up there) and rendered moot after 1846, when any Mexican presence fell after the fall of California.
And again, I repeat: Siberia, Caucasus, Poland, Finland, Baltic States, Chinese Concessions, Russian Pacific. While the US was hardly sinless, neither is Mother Russia.
And again, even if that is so, it is worth noting that both cases were in the 19th or VERY early 20th centuries, as were most of the “Banana Wars.” Say what you will about Iraq and Afghanistan, but the US has hardly gone around invading Latin American countries that have ticked us off (and the cloak and dagger business hardly is unlike what you have defended Russia’s use of in its “Near Beyond.”), as the continued existence of the Castros and Chavez should prove beyond a shadow of a doubt (and the former especially, given how their itchy trigger fingers nearly caused a nuclear war).
So I must ask: what is America’s Chechnya? Yugoslavia, where civilian casualties were vastly lower per capital than military ones and usually the results of faulty identification?
How about America’s Georgia?
And how do you explain Russia’s aid to the extremely unstable regime of Iran, which is almost as large a threat to Russia as it is to the West?
Or the absolute failure of the Russian army to corral their Abkhazian and South Ossestian irregular allies from launching raids across the fortier at the drop of a hat?
You see, Michael, I cannot pretend the US or indeed the rest of the West has a spotless history, that it has not overseen horrific acts in its past.
But I CAN point out that for all the faults of the US and the West, it has very, VERY little if ANYTHING on Russia, and it is telling that even when comparing perhaps the worst period of American history (the 19th century) with the relatively quiet period Russia had during the same period hardly proves that the former is worse than the latter.
I wonder, what if we were to add in the 20th century to that mix? What way would the pendulum turn?
Well, I know one thing. The US is not perfect, but you do not have to be perfect to be good. And compared to Russia’s behavior throughout the last century, America’s looks positively MILD in comparison.
I await a response.
Turtler,
While I appreciate your intensions of being scholarly, I cannot see the punch line to your meandering dissertation.
For example, are you saying that USA hasn’t annexed huge foreign territories like Texas and California in the 19th century? Have Texas and California always belonged to white anglo Americans throughout the 19th century?
And what does Congo have to do with anything? Are you trying to say that Belgians were also very bad guys? OK. But how is Russia responsible for Belgian actions?
If we condense your post to one sentence it would be that you have provided enormous amount of evidence that most other colonialist powers have done much more horrible things in the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries than has Russia.
Michael:
“While I appreciate your intensions of being scholarly, I cannot see the punch line to your meandering dissertation.”
No punch line, just punch. And to that end, I am willing to enlighten you.
“For example, are you saying that USA hasn’t annexed huge foreign territories like Texas and California in the 19th century?”
No, I am not. The point I was contesting was explicitly that they were “stolen”, particularly in regards to Texas, and that they were the subject of aggression, which in the case of Spain and possibly the Mexican cession I have very little issue with, but in regards to Texas and the geniuine ambiguities of 1846 I believe was unfair.
And for context, here is the quote I was referencing:
“Surely, Kate, if you ever learned American history, you will find out how in the 19th century USA ATTACKED Spain and Mexico and STOLE and annexed vast territories: Texas, Arizona, California, Philippines, Florida, COLORADO, etc etc.” (emph mine).
Those highlighted cases are where I have the issue with, particularly since Russia did things that can be classified just as shady or even moreso (um, regardless of what one may thing about 1846, at least the US had the common courtesy to formally declare war, unlike what happened in the Finnish Wars, not only 1940 and 1941, but 1809 as well).
“Have Texas and California always belonged to white anglo Americans throughout the 19th century?”
Obviously not, and if you actually paid any more than a cursory glance, I addressed the point of Texas (namely, that the Anglo Texans were on the whole semilegal immigrants that the Spanish and than the Mexicans allowed), and did not contest California, save as part of the greater issue of whether the US can be said to have “attacked” Mexico after the whole “spot” affair on the Rio Grande- after which it would have been a perfectly legal act of war.
“And what does Congo have to do with anything? Are you trying to say that Belgians were also very bad guys? OK. But how is Russia responsible for Belgian actions?”
Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit, is it?
Firstly, YES, I was saying that the Belgians were not all that nice, mainly those who supported their king in his personal fief, the Congo Free State, where after a century or so we STILL haven’t gotten the full death toll (though it is safe to say it must number in the millions) due to his cruelty and extreme corruption.
The POINT I was making was not to POSIT that the Czar was responsible for Leopold’s atrocities (and nowhere did I say that. Did you even read that much?) but to point out that his regime collapsed after the free press in the West- including in Belgium- revealed the horrors he had inflicted during his autocratic rule in the Congo to the Belgian populace, where he was a monarch with VERY strict constitutional limits. The resulting anger from the Belgian people forced Leopold to surrender the Congo or face being deposed. In short, the free press of Belgium- like those of the US, Britain, and France- played an active role in highlighting colonial misdeeds and in forcing those responsible to take account.
With this comparison, I contrasted that with the behavior of the Russian press, which- save for a few relatively minor and extremely fragile dissident newspapers did not, and indeed COULD not act as a similar check when atrocities were committed by the Russian authorities in places such as the Caucasus, Poland, or Finland.
Hence, the Western empires- for all their many and truly disgusting warts- were checked by their own populace due to the established freedoms of the press, which were used to hold officials to account. WHERE in Russian history- save possibly the short lived Provisional government- is there any real comparison to that?
Understand now?
“If we condense your post to one sentence it would be that you have provided enormous amount of evidence that most other colonialist powers have done much more horrible things in the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries than has Russia.”
Perhaps you should enter remedial writing if you honestly think that was what I wrote.
The one page summary?
While it is true that the West- like Russia and other nations- is hardly unblemished in the face of history, the West ultimately developed the Democratic traditions and organs necessary to restrict abuses by the state; and the failure of Russia to do so has meant that unlike the West, its most flagrant atrocities were not in the 19th century, but in the 20th.
Happy now?
> Happy now?
Well, you can write much faster than I can read. So, I had to skim/skip most of what you wrote.
What I want to know is whether you disagree with any of my main points:
1. most other colonialist powers have done much more horrible things in the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries than has Russia.
2. USA is currently occupying Afghanistan and Iraq.
3. USA’s role in Kosovo is, legally, no different from Russia’s role in Ossetia.
“Well, you can write much faster than I can read. So, I had to skim/skip most of what you wrote.”
Ah, I KNEW my secret Wall of Text strategy would win in the end!
“1. most other colonialist powers have done much more horrible things in the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries than has Russia.”
Either neutral or disagreed. Particularly on the last two. While Western Europe was far uglier than it is and would be during the first part of your timeline and was far more involved in the world to boot, the 19th and early 20th centuries are where we saw several truly ugly things pop up, from the Caucasian campaigns to the “issues” with China (or at least the dynasty). Ultimately, I will have to say that only when I know where all the graves are will I be able to make a decision, and even then limiting it mostly to pre-20th century times while cutting it off at mid century ignores many other points.
Final verdict: not sure, leaning towards “No.”
“2. USA is currently occupying Afghanistan and Iraq.”
Define “occupy.” Yes, we have troops there, and yes they are the main force behind the government, but in both areas while American influence is the main animator, the alliances there are not limited to the US, particularly in Afghanistan, where more of NATO is engaged.
Verdict: Probably yes, pending definition
“3. USA’s role in Kosovo is, legally, no different from Russia’s role in Ossetia.”
A hearty Nyet. Even before the US was involved, Europe had been talking about intervening, and the UN itself certainly talked about it (though the actual intervention was done without passing it by the UN). The US intervened in Yugoslavia as a the strongest but not the solitary part of an alliance that had agreed to intervene, and as a result Washington alone could not dictate the course of war. In addition, NATO had never gotten together to try and pry Kosovo from Serbia/Yugoslavia before the actual war broke out.
In contrast, Russia went in alone and with no authorization from anybody save itself, it at the very least helped stoke the fires of conflict by encouraging SO and Abk while largely filling them with Russian citizens, and in general was far less neutral than NATO was during the onset of the Yugoslav wars.
You wrote:
“And of course, the worst was USA that exterminated millions and millions of Native Americans”
I am tired of reading this repeated kremlin propagandist BS!
The USA did not exist when most of the American Indians died. Also, most of them died due to germs and virus that were brought to North America on the ships.
Compare that to the tens of millions (10,000,000′s) of Ukrainians that the kremlin intentionlly killed?
First of all, most Native Americnas died **after** USA became a country in 1776.
Also, Russia as a country didn’t exist when the Georgian monster Stalin killed tens of millions of Rusisans, Ukrainians, Tatars etc in the 1930s-1940s.
If USA is not responsible for the actions of the American colonists, then modern Russia is not responsible for the actions of the Soviet stalinists. In fact, per capita, Ukraine is just as responsible for the actions of Stalin as are Russia and all other Soviet republics. The only difference is that Russia has more people.
“First of all, most Native Americnas died **after** USA became a country in 1776.”
That would also be my guess, but since nobody seems to even know how many of them there were at any given time, and that nobody seems to take into account where they were, I can’t say for certain how accurate or relevant that statement is.
“Also, Russia as a country didn’t exist when the Georgian monster Stalin killed tens of millions of Rusisans, Ukrainians, Tatars etc in the 1930s-1940s.”
Not as an independent nation, but as a constituent member of the USSR, and indeed as the dominant member.
And secondly, don’t play the whole “Stalin was a Georgian” card without first recognizing that he was aided and abetted by an infrastructure that was predominantly Russian at most levels. Don’t act as though the Russians were only the oppressed by some foreign cabal, rather than both the victims and the victimizers, because I’ve been seeing that pop up far too often on both sides of the fence on this forum, and I am getting quite sick of it.
“If USA is not responsible for the actions of the American colonists, then modern Russia is not responsible for the actions of the Soviet stalinists.”
Again, a double standard (though to be perfectly fair, while the US government could by no means control all that happened in the territories, all too often its tact acceptance of the injustices committed in its name by its frontiersmen renders it guilty save in the cases where it intervened to stop it).
Because while you do bring up a point, you miss a larger one: how many American colonials- the people who committed Wounded Knee and who deported the Cherokee and Creek- are alive today, much less in the government? And how many times has the US NOT recognized its role in such crimes?
Compare this to Putin, who was a veteran of the KGB, and doubtless worked with many other veterans of the Soviet “organs,” and who has continued the habit of openly trying to rewrite history (like stating that the 1940 invasion of the Baltic republics was not, in fact, an invasion)?
The past is the past, but how we confront it is what largely defines ourselves in the present.
“In fact, per capita, Ukraine is just as responsible for the actions of Stalin as are Russia and all other Soviet republics. The only difference is that Russia has more people. In fact, per capita, Ukraine is just as responsible for the actions of Stalin as are Russia and all other Soviet republics. The only difference is that Russia has more people.”
Intriguing and maybe even possible, but I must question how you came to this conclusion, and why it invalidates the larger point that Russia has yet to even apologize for most of the sins it has committed like the US has rightfully been forced to?
> Stalin was aided and abetted by an infrastructure that was predominantly Russian at most levels.
Look, of course an ethnic group of 150 million is going to be more represented in the “infrastructure” than an ethnic group of , say, 3 million.
However, per capita, Russians were less represented in the Soviet and Cheka/GPU/NKVD leadership than Gerogians, Jews, Latvians and many other ethncities. In fact, per capita, Russians were less represented in the Soviet and Cheka/GPU/NKVD leadership than the overall poulation average.
So, per capita, Russians and other ethnic groups from the terrtitory of modern Russia/RSFSR were less responsible for Stalin’s crimes than people from other republics in the USSR.
Per capita!
“Look, of course an ethnic group of 150 million is going to be more represented in the “infrastructure” than an ethnic group of , say, 3 million.”
True, and that is the point I was trying to make: while the “organs” were infamously filled with minorities, the fact remains that the Russian people provided most of their own persecutors, and many of said persecutors are still active throughout the ex-Soviet Republics (though certainly not all on the same side).
“However, per capita, Russians were less represented in the Soviet and Cheka/GPU/NKVD leadership than Gerogians, Jews, Latvians and many other ethncities. In fact, per capita, Russians were less represented in the Soviet and Cheka/GPU/NKVD leadership than the overall poulation average.”
Fully agreed.
“So, per capita, Russians and other ethnic groups from the terrtitory of modern Russia/RSFSR were less responsible for Stalin’s crimes than people from other republics in the USSR.
Per capita!”
Again, I can’t say that is entirely unlikely, but I would still like to know how you came to your conclusion, particularly when you figure in the fact that the present Russian Republic was always the heart of the USSR, and when the preparers were lost, it was Russia itself that usually provided the backbone of the Soviet organization.
Though this entire point may be a bit off topic, seeing as how we can agree that while the Russians were often persecuted by the Soviet system, they were also a major component of it.
Next…
Pardon me for the incorrect word.
When I said off topic, I meant moot.
Similar, but not same.
Anyway…
Michael, only reason why I brought up the Circassian genocid is because you made up some BS that georgians committed genocide against ossetians in 1920! if you can bring up 1920s, I dont think late 19th century is that far off. Secondly I’m sick of you for blaming West for eerything, what is your obsession with the West anyway? We’re talking about Russia on here not the West. I’m done this is not the right place to discuss this.
Kate,
The reason why I brought up 1920 is in response to your anti-Ossetian claims: because it explains the modern Ossetian-Georgian conflict. It was an aside point:
“You are very wrong about Georgia, Abkhazia and Ossetia. It is the Georgians who are the most guilty party in this conflict. But this is a very long topic and we have been over it many times”
Second, how can I argue with you if after I present to you Wiki and LR’s articles proving that Russia has NOT annexed Abkhazia, you still reply to me with:
> Russia is annexign Abkhazia and so Called S. Osseti
If you want to argue with what Wiki or LR say, and if you want to claim that Russia has not recognised Abkhazian and S. Ossetian independence – do so. But don’t pretend that you haven’t noticed my post.
Here we go agaaaiinnn…
“The reason why I brought up 1920 is in response to your anti-Ossetian claims: because it explains the modern Ossetian-Georgian conflict. It was an aside point:”
Meh, some of it. Shevvy and the bloodbaths of the 90′s accounts for most of the rest, though some issues date back to the Medieval era.
“Second, how can I argue with you if after I present to you Wiki and LR’s articles proving that Russia has NOT annexed Abkhazia, you still reply to me with:”
And the Japanese never formally annexed Manchuria. And the Germans never formally did so for most of the areas they occupied in both world wars.
The fact that Russia intervened on the pretext that the Georgians were attacking Russian citizens and committing ethnic cleansing against them, coupled with the handing out of Russian citizenship points to the fact that Russia seems to consider them- if not annexed- at least autonomous provinces loyal to Moscow.
And the Americans never formally annexed Iraq or Afghanistan. Yet, both are under US occupation.
And Kosovo was never formally annexed by NATO. Yet, Kosovo has been stolen from its official owner – Serbia – by NATO and it is NATO-controlled KFOR troops that are physically preventing Serbia from re-claiming Kosovo as its territory, exactly like Russian peacekeeping troops (which Georgia agreed to) are preventing Georgia from re-claiming S. Ossetia as its territory.
So, how are Russia’s actions any worse than USA’s and NATO’s?
Again, comparing two different things.
“And the Americans never formally annexed Iraq or Afghanistan. Yet, both are under US occupation.”
And is there any rhetoric about making them the 51st and 52nd states? Was the US handing out American citizenship to Iraqis and Afghanis WITHIN their respective countries BEFORE the invasions while using those citizenships as an excuse to intervene?
And where has Georgia violated the UN agreements that explicitly state (more or less) “If you violate these terms, war will resume” like Iraq did?
Big difference.
“And Kosovo was never formally annexed by NATO.”
That would probably be because NATO, as an international organization, cannot annex a state.
“Yet, Kosovo has been stolen from its official owner – Serbia – by NATO”
And I suppose you would define freeing an abused spouse from a wifebeating husband would be tantamount to “stealing” her? While I cannot say I am entirely pleased with how Kosovo has played out and I would be a fool to not worry for the fate of the Serbs, the bottom line is that Belgrade was practically ASKING for this when they rescinded Kosovo’s autonomy and tried to send disproportionate amounts of manpower to subjugate the area by force.
“and it is NATO-controlled KFOR troops”
Obviously, you have no idea about how little NATO and the KFOR got along. Had the balance of power between KFOR and the Serbs been reversed, most of the strikes would have been against the rebels.
” that are physically preventing Serbia from re-claiming Kosovo as its territory”
And given the less-than-stellar behavior of the Serbian army last time they entered Kosovo, forgive me if I don’t find that entirely irrational.
” exactly like Russian peacekeeping troops (which Georgia agreed to) are preventing Georgia from re-claiming S. Ossetia as its territory.”
The best comparison I have seen you make all night.
“So, how are Russia’s actions any worse than USA’s and NATO’s?”
Um, let’s see here:
Only one side openly provoked a conflict by handing out citizenship to foreign citizens WITHIN a foreign state BEFORE open conflict?
Only one side allowed “its” side to break the agreements made at will while indulging in ethnic cleansing (yes, KFOR did that anyway, but unlike SO and Abk, NATO actually has tried to eliminate them, and militarized Serbian police units are actually allowed to intervene against them)?
Only one side game anywhere close to the “enemy’s” capital?
Only one side can be claimed to have openly allowed local units under its command to run riot without being brought to heel?
While do not pretend that Kosovo is all cut and dry, the fact that Russia’s distinct failure to restrain its allies and the abuses it has allowed to be inflicted to the Georgian minority without any repose shows which of the two is more damming.
Oh yes, and first you say that the defacto Russian annexation of SO and Abkhaz doesn’t count because it isn’t official, but then you go on and say that the American occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan and the NATO presence in Kosovo amount to annexation.
Barring the obvious problem (that the US and NATO have never stated a desire to annex any of the three listed, while Russia has made its hopes for SO and Abk quite clear), which one is it, Michael?
One or the other.
> Oh yes, and first you say that the defacto Russian annexation of SO and Abkhaz
There is no such “annexation”. Since you can’t read, let me repeat what our own LR wrote:
—————————————-
http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2009/09/05/abkhazia-spits-in-russias-eye/
Abkhazia Spits in Russia’s Eye
September 5, 2009
Moscow’s expectations of gratitude from Abkhazia because of Russia’s decision to extend diplomatic recognition to that breakaway republic are proving to be unjustified, according to an influential Russian analyst, and he predicts that Abkhazia will continue to “drift away” from Moscow
—————————————-
Moreover, if we were to use your terminology and logic, why wouldn’t it be true that there is:
1. a de facto NATO annexation of Kosovo?
2. a de facto American annexation of Afghanistan and Iraq?
“There is no such “annexation”. Since you can’t read, let me repeat what our own LR wrote:”
Again, EVADING THE POINT.
I did not say that Russia had OFFICIALLY or DEJURE annexed SO or Abk. Just that it has been openly stating its DESIRE to and pointing out that the dominant role it plays in handing the two breakaway nations has effectively made them Russian surrogates in the region.
And as for the point on LR, may I ask precisely HOW Abk is going to “drift away” form Moscow when its borders are protected by Russian soldiers, it is largely populated by Russian citizens, it is primarily recognized by Russia, and it has openly stated its desire for Union?
That is one thing LR never seemed to ask, and which you seem so eager to ignore.
“1. a de facto NATO annexation of Kosovo?”
Possibly but not likely. NATO has long been relegated to the referee on the side that nobody in particular likes, and the main function it has played is to force the locals to “play nice.” Hardly the same as Russia taking pains to establish an unofficial Russian region within Georgia’s official borders. After all, how many Kosovars were handed NATO (or Western Allied) passports prior to the war while having them remain inside?
:2. a de facto American annexation of Afghanistan and Iraq?”
Had you asked me in 2002 or 2004, I would have agreed in large part, though with the exception that there were already steps to prepare for self governance. Since you are asking in 2009, I will say no, given the fact that both states now have duly elected governments (or as duly elected as can be given the circumstances) with the foundations of independent civic structures (such as the police, armed forces, etc) already in place.
Certainly, I can imagine that the West (and the US in particular) will retain special privileges in the two nations and continue to intervene, but the stage is relatively advanced for the possibility of true independence. A far cry from the declining independence of the two separatist republics in Georgia (particularly Abk., who largely fought their own war in the 90′s and have only recently truly come into Moscow’s orbit).
Next.
Actually Tutler, although I agree with most of what you say, I have to take issue with this “particularly Abk., who largely fought their own war in the 90’s and have only recently truly come into Moscow’s orbit”
This is simply incorrect. The Russian military provided huge amounts of logistical and combat support to the separatists including “volunteer” tank battalions, fire support from capital ships of the black sea fleet and amphibious assault landing ships for the several assaults on Sukhumi and other coastal landings, the Russian VVS (frontal aviation) launched multiple attacks on Georgian military and civillian targets in the conflict zone, and Russian artillery units were used to bombard Sukhumi, Gagra, and several other predominantly ethnic Georgian cities and towns in Abkhazia.
Russian support for the separatists, including combat operations, logistical support (particularly the supply of weapons and ammunition), transportation and operational planning are all quite well documented by the UN, OSCE, and HRW.
As far as minorities in the NKVD/Politburo etc are concerned, well during the great purges the NKVD was headed by the ethnic Russians Yhezov and Yagoda.
Russia dominated the Soviet Union, Russians dominated the Cheka, NKVD, GRU, KGB etc, being the overwhelming majority of the personnell and particularly the leadership of these organisations.
I agree that Russians were both victims and victimisers, but the hammer of Soviet Russian opression fell hardest on the ethnic minorities during the entire period of soviet rule (deportations of minorites), particularly those with strong nationalist movements, such as the Ukrainians, Chechens, Georgians (who were horrifically repressed by Stalin one might add), the Tartars, Volga Germans, Pontic Greeks etc.
I am sorry for the delay in posting, but I was detained for a while (@%^&@! real life!).
Anyway, as for Abk. While I agree that Russia did provide large amounts of resources to aid Abk during the 90′s (like it did to South Ossestia and Transnistria), of the three, Abk was by far the most independent (for instance, there is some evidence showing that many of the “volunteer tank battalions” were actually volunteers, albeit with Moscow’s blessing), and by the time Russian aid (both official and unofficial) was being felt, the Georgians were largely already holding on by a toenail. In addition, while Abk certainly viewed Russia as an ally, they were primarily nationalist and didn’t truly view annexation (and certainly as nothing less than an autonomous region) as a real option, unlike today.
As for Yagoda, your milage will vary: while he was ethnically Russian, he was also of Jewish descent, which in Russia is often counted as being a minority.
And as for the hammer of Soviet oppression falling anywhere, I would have to agree that while Nationalist movements were VERY hard hit, much depends on whether you mean “per capita” or simple numbers. If the former, certainly, if the later, maybe.
> US and NATO have never stated a desire to annex any of the three listed, while Russia has made its hopes for SO and Abk quite clear
Really? Please provide documentation.
With pleasure:
From the S. O side:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2009/08/mil-090821-rianovosti05.htm
And from the Russian side (and before you say it, read the article and scroll down)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/11/georgia.russia
> And from the Russian side (and before you say it, read the article and scroll down)
I did read everything that the Rusian Foreign Minister was quoted saying. He said the very opposite:
“South Ossetia does not want to become part of Russia, the Russian foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, said today… Lavrov later said: “South Ossetia doesn’t wish to join up with anyone.”"
What other Lavrov statements do you want me to see when I ‘scroll down “? There is nothing else there that Lavrov or any other Russian official said.
So, let me repeat:
Please show me any quotes from Russian officials in which they (Russian officials) make it “quite clear” that they intend to annex S. Ossetia or Abkhazia.
> From the S. O side
First of all, we are talking about the Russian side, not the A. O side. Russia is not responsible if Ossetians express a desire to be protected by Russia. Ossetia is an independent country and has a freedom of speech to say whatever they want. And second, the Ossetians were not talking about wanting to be annexed by Russia. What the article says is that Ossetians expressed (but later withdrew?) a desire to have the same relation with Russia as Belarus has with Russia. Are you saying that Belarus is part of Russia?
In regards to the Russian article: I recognize the mistake, and apologize (to launch my pathetic and rather threadbare defense, I was tired and I misread the South Ossetian for a Russian official. My bad). I will try to find an article regarding it soon. Again, I apologize, and the cats made me do it.
That article you give as an example from LR about abkhazia shows that the apsua abkhaz are speaking out against the russan occupants, main thing you should understand from that is while rusisa caims that apsus want russian occupation it’s not the case. the more apsu abaz abkhazispeak out against russian occupation the better for georgia. LR pointed out that people in abkhazia are starting to see Russia is not there to give them independence, but simply they are trying to annex abkhazia into russia. if russia really wanted to give independence to ethnic minotiries who don’t want to be part of russia they would free all of Northern Caucasus, where the vast majority of people want indepndence from Russia.
But what does Russia do instead/ Recognizes two regions that are on GEORGIAN territory in order to divide Georgia and spread their Neo-Soviet sick imperialistic conquering agenda.
> That article you give as an example from LR about abkhazia shows that the apsua abkhaz are speaking out against the russan occupants
No this article is not about “apsua abkhaz speaking out against the russan occupants”. There is nothing about the alleged anti-Russian feelings or speeches among average Abkhazis. There is none, because Abkhazis worship Russians for saving them Georgian wrath.
The LR’s article is about the Abkhaz government asserting its political independence from Russia and pursuing economic policies that Moscow doesn’t like. And this article ends with:
“Abkhazia will continue to “drift away” from Moscow”
If so – how can you say that Russia has annexed Abkhazia?
Can the government of occupied Afghanistan or Iraq pursue policies that go against the interests of USA?
“If so – how can you say that Russia has annexed Abkhazia?”
Because they are militarily in charge and much of the Abkhazian electorate are Russian citizens?
“Can the government of occupied Afghanistan or Iraq pursue policies that go against the interests of USA?”
Absolutely. But the true measure of independence is how the autonomous structures of government are developing. And I feel safe to say that Abk and SO are, if anything, devolving (for instance, there have been attempts to integrate local units into the Russian command).
> Intriguing and maybe even possible, but I must question how you came to this conclusion,
I actually studied the lists of top Soviet and GPU leaders in the 1930s and saw that per capita, there were more people born in Georgia, Ukraine, Latvia etc than people born in Russia proper.
> and why it invalidates the larger point that Russia has yet to even apologize for most of the sins it has committed like the US has rightfully been forced to?
USA has apologised for its crimes in Viet Nam, Cambodia, Iraq, Shah’s Iran, Serbia, Panama, Nicaragua and all other countries in Latin America? Has it ever apologised for or officially discontinued the Monroe Doctrine that says that USA has the right and obligation to do with Latin American countries whatever it pleases?
When were these apologies made?
Michael Tai:
“I actually studied the lists of top Soviet and GPU leaders in the 1930s and saw that per capita, there were more people born in Georgia, Ukraine, Latvia etc than people born in Russia proper.”
True, but (as we talked before) there is more to any state than the guys at the top, and the fact remains that the Ukraine in particular was virtually in a state of a mini-civil war during the collectivization period (part of the reason why the Holodomor happened: the skirmishes and fighting ruined much of the land)
“USA has apologised for its crimes in Viet Nam”
Yes. We have apologized for Agent Orange (and its sisters), the carpet bombing, and other issues such as Mai Lai. If you are talking about the actual conflict, I am afraid there is nothing or very little to apologize for, given the RVN’s sovereign nature and its illegal annexation by the North.
” Cambodia”
See above.
” Iraq”
In most cases, yes. And in most of the others, we have our reasons (and most of them were brought on by our dear friends the Hussein family- see the UN resolutions relating to this)
” Shah’s Iran”
For all intents and purposes, yes. Doesn’t mean the apologies were accepted or entirely complete, but then again, I don’t see any apologies for 1979 or the other charming issues EITHER, so…
” Serbia”
We had to pay for civilian casualties. Other than that, there are- if not none- at least minimum to actually apologize for. And has Serbia gotten around to apologizing for its behavior in Kosovo yet?
” Panama”
If you mean the separation of Panama from Colombia, no, and we would have to send that to Bogota. If you are referring to the intervention, let me just say that we have for the civilian casualties, and as for the invasion itself, very few in Panama are sad the Noreiga got the boot.
” Nicaragua”
To a far greater degree than Castro and the USSR have.
” and all other countries in Latin America?”
In many cases yes, and in many other cases (Operation Condor) we were not involved or actually OPPOSED, and we have also given Latin America far more than they will admit (for instance, does Chavez realize how little chance he would have of rising to where he is if the Germans had successful in intervening without Teddy Roosevelt’s ultimatum?).
” Has it ever apologised for or officially discontinued the Monroe Doctrine that says that USA has the right and obligation to do with Latin American countries whatever it pleases?”
No, and we have little reason to until Russia cancels the near abroad. And secondly, you are thinking about the “Roosevelt Corollary.” The Monroe Doctrine was far more benign.
How many has Russia given?
“When were these apologies made?”
Google, Wiki, and Jeeves. Yes, I am lazy, but I have two days to make up.
Michael Ta
“Yet, Kosovo has been stolen from its official owner – Serbia – by NATO”
You condemn what happened in Kosovo and see it as an unjust act by West yet you use it to justify what Russia is doing to Georgian regions. Are you than by your logic not admiting that Russia’s actions in Georgia are unjust and wrong? I think the answer is obvious.
Kate, read what I already posted from Wiki:
——————————
President Medvedev stated that “western countries rushed to recognise Kosovo’s illegal declaration of independence from Serbia. We argued consistently that it would be impossible, after that, to tell the Abkhazians and Ossetians (and dozens of other groups around the world) that what was good for the Kosovo Albanians was not good for them. In international relations, you cannot have one rule for some and another rule for others.”
——————————
Kosovo has set the precedent that it is OK to violate the territorial sovereignty of post-socialist federal republics. When USA was recognising Kosovo’s independence, Russia warned not to do so and threatened that if that were to happen, Russia would follow the example wrt Abkhazia and S. Ossetia.
“Kosovo has set the precedent that it is OK to violate the territorial sovereignty of post-
socialist federal republics.”
No, that would have been NK between Armenia and Azerbaijan. And Russia’s interventions in Georgia during the early 90′s. And in Moldavia during the same period.
Nice try, roll again.
” When USA was recognising Kosovo’s independence, Russia warned not to do so and threatened that if that were to happen, Russia would follow the example wrt Abkhazia and S. Ossetia.”
And to this day, we are still waiting for them to do so. As opposed to stir up a conflict and than step in in an attempt to separate and defacto annex these regions.
Here read this and leave this issue alone.
by David L. Phillips
7 February 2008
Abkhazia is Not Kosovo
Moscow’s shrill denunciations of the West’s stance on Kosovo hold no water, as the Russians know better than anyone.
Kosovo’s Prime Minister Hashim Thaci recently made his case for recognition of Kosovo to the UN Security Council knowing that one of its permanent members was not prepared to hear him out.
Russia is not only prepared to veto the council’s resolution authorizing independence for Kosovo; President Vladimir Putin also has intimated that Moscow may recognize Abkhazia, a separatist enclave in the Republic of Georgia, if the United States establishes diplomatic relations with Kosovo. Such brinksmanship would destabilize the Caucasus and exacerbate problems between the United States and Russia at a time when world events require cooperation between the two powers.
Simply put, Abkhazia is not Kosovo. There are fundamental legal and political differences between the two territories.
Kosovo’s claim to independence is based on international law while Abkhazia’s is not. After NATO intervened in 1999 to stop the expulsions of ethnic Albanians from Kosovo, the Security Council adopted Resolution 1244 explicitly requiring a plebiscite to determine the province’s future political status in accordance with the will of its people. Since then, Kosovo has satisfied international criteria for recognition. Abkhazia’s claim, however, falls far short of international standards.
Kosovo’s legal claim to independence was also affirmed by the 1974 constitution of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, which established Kosovo as an autonomous province with the same rights as Yugoslavia’s republics. Although Slobodan Milosevic tried to curtail the province’s constitutional rights by declaring a state of emergency and imposing martial law, his efforts were overtaken by events as Yugoslavia slid into civil war during the 1990s. It is true that Resolution 1244 affirmed “the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia” – which by that time had been reduced to a rump state consisting of Serbia and Montenegro. However, that republic’s legal identity changed with Montenegrins voted to secede, leaving only Serbia as the successor state. And even before these events Kosovo had exercised its constitutional right in conducting a referendum that overwhelmingly endorsed independence. With ethnic Albanians comprising more than 90 percent of the population, the result was a foregone conclusion.
In contrast, Georgia was recognized by the international community within its current borders that included Abkhazia and South Ossetia after the Soviet Union ceased to exist. When the Georgia-Abkhazia civil war broke out in 1992, the United Nations developed a process to restore Georgia’s territorial integrity – not establish a protectorate stewarding Abkhazia’s independence.
Political leaders from Kosovo and Abkhazia have dramatically different visions of the future that help measure their readiness for self-rule. Kosovo’s leadership has endorsed an extensive package of minority rights for ethnic Serbs and promised autonomy for communities where Kosovo Serbs predominate. (Despite the majority’s rhetorical commitment, many non-Albanians, chiefly Roma, fear a new round of violence and have elected to remain outside the province.) Georgia’s political factions have also spoken of their good intentions toward minorities, promising to encourage minority rights and local self-government so that conditions are created for, in particular, Abkhazia’s reintegration into the political and social fabric of Georgia.
Abkhaz leaders have taken a different and more insidious tack. They actively block the UN’s efforts to create security and economic conditions enabling the return of internally displaced persons because they know full well that a majority of Abkhazia’s original population support reunification with Georgia.
The scope and scale of human rights abuses further distinguish Kosovo from Abkhazia. Kosovar Albanians were victims of atrocities on a massive scale. After a decade of gross human rights abuses, Serbia’s leaders launched an ethnic cleansing campaign in 1998 that resulted in the deaths of more than 10,000 and the displacement of a million. The international Yugoslav war crimes tribunal has indicted Serbs responsible for these events and charged them with genocide or crimes against humanity. In my many visits to Kosovo, I have not met a single ethnic Albanian who supports Serbia’s rule.
Abkhaz separatists, in contrast, perpetrated violence directly aimed at the expulsion of ethnic Georgians. When the Soviet Union fragmented, Georgia emerged as a weak state victimized by infighting and incompetence. Ethnic Abkhaz made up less than one-fifth of Abkhazia’s total population and only became the largest language community by expelling 200,000 ethnic Georgians.
RUSSIAN INTRANSIGENCE
Russia has not been helpful in either conflict. Through its position on the Security Council, Russia provided diplomatic support to Belgrade during the Yugoslav wars. It also instigated the Georgia-Abkhaz civil war by financing and arming Abkhaz separatists.
Peacekeepers or occupiers?
In its relentless effort to undermine Georgia’s statehood, Russia has imposed a trade embargo, cut off energy supplies, and a Russian aircraft dropped a missile on Georgian territory. It antagonizes Georgia by issuing Russian passports to ethnic Abkhaz and granting them Russian citizenship. Russia even set up polling stations in Abkhazia so that Abkhaz could vote in last December’s parliamentary elections. As the only country contributing troops to the UN peacekeeping force for Abkhazia, Russia’s deployment is nothing more than a thinly veiled occupation.
Russia’s approach to both Abkhazia and Kosovo suggests scorn for the UN Charter. Russia has pledged to veto the “supervised independence” plan devised by the UN’s special envoy to Kosovo, Martti Ahtisaari, against the wishes of the majority of Security Council members and the European Union. Russia’s willingness to go it alone and block authorization of Kosovo’s independence underlines its contempt for the international community.
Russia would be well advised to let events in Kosovo take their course. It should also abandon its provocative policy toward not only Georgia, but other states in its “near abroad.” Challenging the United States may bring some short-term gratification, but it also carries a cost.
David L. Phillips is a visiting scholar at Columbia University’s Center for the Study of Human Rights. He worked on the Balkans and Caucasus as a senior adviser to the U.S. State Department during the Clinton administration.
Sorry, Kate, we have been over this issue many times before, and I am not going to go into this endless discussion again.
Yes, Kosovo is not Abkhazia, Abkhazia is not Kosovo, and Bulgaria is not France. Every place is unique. Every snowflake is unique. Every person is unique. So what? We still need common laws, don’t we?
However, from the legal and historical point of view, Abkhazia has much more right and justification for independence than Kosovo does.
Once again, not according to international law.
And historically it has been a part of western Georgia for over 2000 years.
It was part of Cholchis, the Kingdom of Lazica Egrisi (also known as Abkhazia-Egrisi), part of the Kingdom of Imereti, the united Kingdom of Georgia etc, etc, etc.
However, Chechnya, Daghestan, Ingushetia et al have a far greater right to independance from Russian occupation and cultural and ethnic genocide I will admit.
Agree Andrew! very well said as always!
> historically it has been a part of western Georgia for over 2000 years.
Kosovo has been a part of Christian Yugo-Slavia/South-Slavia for over 1300 years:
I agree, I was not in favour of Kosovan independance either, I would have personally rather seen an internationally monitored autonomy for the province.
At least we agree on this one.
But sadly, USA and NATO are choosing the other path. And since Georgia views USA as its mentor and wants to join NATO, Georgia should make it a condition: Georgia will join NATO only if NATO stops recognising Kosovo’s independence.
If this happens – I assure you that Russia will stop recgnising Ossetia and Abkhazia.
Georgia has already refused to recognise Kosovar independance.
Georgia should not join an organisation – NATO – that took Kosovo away from Serbia, until this wrongdoing is reversed.
Now once again you admit its wrong? are you saying that Russia should punish Georgia for Kosovo? :))
Sorry, but since the man responsible for that- one S. Milosevic- is currently taking up perfectly good soil, I don’t think it will happen anytime soon.
In addition, I sincerely doubt Russia would rescind its recognition under the scenario you describe.
Russia wants a subservient Georgia, not necessarily a friendly one. Sponsoring separatist movemements in Georgia is just too useful a stick with which to beat Georgians in the eyes of the Kremlin.
Of course it (like most of Russia’s foreign policy) simply has the counterproductive effect of driving the Georgians, and other former soviet states into the arms of the US and NATO.
I will tell you now Michael, that for the sake of Georgians, Apsua, Ossetes, and Russians, I sincerely wish for peace and good neighbourly (preferrably brotherly) relations between their peoples, however the Russian governments divide and rule policies with regards to its neighbours and former imperial possessions make this practically impossible at present.
Russian politics simply has to move into the modern era, and realise that its former colonial possessions have the right to manage their own internal and external affairs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo
The Slavic migrations reached the Balkans in the 6th to 7th century.[15] Kosovo was absorbed into the Bulgarian Empire in the 850s, where Christianity and a Byzantine-Slavic culture was cemented in the region.
As the centre of Slavic resistance, the region often switched between Serbian and Bulgarian rule on one hand and Byzantine on the other until the Serb principality of Rascia conquered it definitively by the end of the 12th century.. The zenith of Serbian power was reached in 1346, with the formation of the Serbian Empire. During the 13th and 14th centuries, Kosovo became a political and spiritual centre of the Serbian Kingdom. In the late 1200s, the seat of the Serbian Archbishopric was moved to Pec, and rulers centred themselves between Prizren and Skopje.
Ottoman occupation left a lasting demographic effect on Kosovo — with full-scale dislocation of Chistian groups (especially Serbs and Orthodox Vlachs). The Serb population never accepted Ottoman rule and often rose against the foreign regimen. According to Banac, “Ottoman raids, plunder, slaving forays, as well as the general devastation caused by constant wars uprooted large numbers of Serbs even before the ‘Great Serb Migration’
In 1766, the Ottomans abolished the Patriarchate of Peć and the position of Christians in Kosovo further deteriorated, including full imposition of jizya (taxation of non-Muslims).
Demographics:
The Dečani Charter from 1330 contained a detailed list of households and chartered villages in Metohija and northwestern Albania: 3 of 89 settlements were Albanian, the other being Serb.
15th century A majority of the given names in the charters are overwhelmingly Serbian (Of 24,795 names, 23,774 were ethnic Serb names, 470 of Roman origin, 65 of Albanian origin and 61 of Greek origin). Turkish cadastral tax-census also found an overwhelming Serb majority.
A study done in 1871 by Austrian colonel Peter Kukulj[21] for the internal use of the Austro-Hungarian army showed that the mutesarifluk of Prizren (corresponding largely to present-day Kosovo) had some 500,000 inhabitants, of which:
318,000 Serbs (64%),
161,000 Albanians (32%),
It is estimated that around 400,000[23] Serbs were cleansed out of the Vilayet of Kosovo between 1876 and 1912, especially during the Greek-Ottoman War in 1897.[24]
“However, from the legal and historical point of view, Abkhazia has much more right and justification for independence than Kosovo does.”
And I must ask how you figure so. Magic 8 ball?
“But in any case, Russia has not annexed Abkhazia. On the contrary: Russia has officially recognised Abkahzia as an **independent** and sovereign country, exactly as USA and other NATO countries have recognised Kosovo”
“And Kosovo was never formally annexed by NATO. Yet, Kosovo has been stolen from its official owner – Serbia”
Michael, first of all you said that America stole Kosovo. Than you said and Russian acitons in Ossetia and Akbhazia are no different than that of the West in Kosovo:) yet at the same time you say that Russia was there to Save abkahzia and Ossetia, you keep contradicting yourself. Do you even know what you are talking about?
Great response Turtle!
I don’t understand your confusion about what I said. I said that:
Russia’s policies and positions vis-a-vis Abkkaz/Osst is like USA’s policies and positions vis-a-vis Kosovo
Russia is there as a peacekeeper to protect Ossets/Abkhazis and Georgians from killing each other
Maybe my use of the word “stole” is a bit judgemental and emotional. Let me replace it with “took away”.
It failed to do any protecting of Georgians thats for sure.
Note all the destruction of Georgian villages in the conflict zone, ethnic cleansing of Georgians from South Ossetia, and the earlier ethnic cleansing of the majority of Georgians from Abkhazia.
So Tal, once again you are lying.
“Russia’s policies and positions vis-a-vis Abkkaz/Osst is like USA’s policies and positions vis-a-vis Kosovo”
May I ask where are the NATO camps set out within spitting distance of Belgrade and the KFOR guerillas running amok murdering innocent Serbs inside Serbia are?
“Russia is there as a peacekeeper to protect Ossets/Abkhazis and Georgians from killing each other”
Actions speak louder than words, and if they are, they are doing a wonderful job in the latter case and no job in the former.
“Maybe my use of the word “stole” is a bit judgemental and emotional. Let me replace it with “took away”.”
Fair enough.
you also had a quote that said what Russia to Abkhazia and Ossetia is not different than what USA did to Kosov. (Which i strongly disagree wtih)At the same time you condemn USA and Europe’s actions but not Russia’s. I can’t find the exact quote righit now but it shows that you keep contradicting yourself. Just read the articcle I’ve posted it will answer all of your questions regarding Kosovo.
Kate,
I do condemn the way NATO took away Kosovo by starting an illegal war.
However, I also realise, that, just like wrt Abkhazia and Ossetia, something has to be done to keep the warring ethnicities from killing each other.
Law is based on precedent. Had USA not established the precedent in Kosovo, then Russia would not have recognised Ossetia and Abkhazia’s independence. But since the legal precedent has been set in Kosovo, Russia’s recognition of Abkh/Osset is perfectly legal.
The side, which sets the precedent, bears all responsibility for its consequences. Thus, it is USA’s responsibility.
if law is based on precedent as you claim (let’s overlook for the time being that you seem to have severe lack of understanding and differentiaiting between two fundamentally diferent conflicts), why has russia not recognized chechnya, ingushetia and daghestan?and not only that fought two brutal wars in chechnya to prevent it from independence?
recognize Chechnya, Dagehstan and Ingushetia none of these regions are Russia ethnically,culturally or historically Russiashuld them independence instead of committing what amounts to genocide against chechens, only beacause they want to hold on to that tiny region which is completely useless to russia.
“I do condemn the way NATO took away Kosovo by starting an illegal war.”
I apologize, because I was under the impression that Milosevic’s party was not NATO, but the SPS. Perhaps it is an error from translating it into Ubangi?
“However, I also realise, that, just like wrt Abkhazia and Ossetia, something has to be done to keep the warring ethnicities from killing each other.”
Really? To be brutally honest, it seems more like you are talking about keeping one ethnicity from killing the others while the others kill it.
“Law is based on precedent. Had USA not established the precedent in Kosovo, then Russia would not have recognised Ossetia and Abkhazia’s independence.”
Again, NK, Transnistria, and Mongolia (1910′s, when the Soviets kicked the Chinese out of it and established an “independent republic”).
” But since the legal precedent has been set in Kosovo, Russia’s recognition of Abkh/Osset is perfectly legal.”
As you would be the first to point out after somebody points to NATO’s legal involvement in the ongoing war Milosevic started, legal does not always equal just.
“The side, which sets the precedent, bears all responsibility for its consequences. Thus, it is USA’s responsibility.”
Nope, that would be Lenin’s. Or Lundendorff’s. At the latest. The fine practice of intentionally stirring up and creating an “Autonomous Republikingdom of Xville” and propping it up is very, VERY old.
Andrew wrote:
> NKVD was headed by the ethnic Russians Yhezov and Yagoda.
To illustrate what an unbelievably pathological liar you are, Andrew, let me quote from your earlier post:
———————————————————–
http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2009/09/11/editorial-russian-schools-get-an-f/
Andrew // September 15, 2009 at 5:05 am
I cringe at what some Jews were capable of under the banner of “international socialism”
The system of the gulags and cheka under Lenin was predominantly administered by Jews. … Jewish bolsheviks were Stalins trigger men and willing executioners.
Genrikh Yagoda, the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU’s deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD…. His Jewish deputies established and managed the Gulag system…. Yezhov was not Jewish but was blessed with an active Jewish wife…. Stalin was surrounded by beautiful, young Jewish women.
———————————————————–
You are a truly shameless liar, Andrew. When you need to spread hatred towards Jews – you wrote that Yagoda was a Jew (correctly) and write some drivel about tying Ezhov’s and Stalin’s crimes to “being surrounded by beautiful, young, active Jewish women”.
But now that you want to spread hatred towards Russians – you knowingly lie that Yagoda was an “ethnic Russian”.
As I have said many times, you are the most shame-free and pathological liar I have ever encountered, and all your statements, unsupported by documentation, should be viewed as lies and fabrications.
He was an ethnic Russian who happened to be Jewish.
It is a religion Michael, not an ethnicity.
Look at all the Arab Jews from say Iraq, and compare them to Ethiopian Jews, or Western European Jews, or Russian Jews for that matter.
A bit like being a Muslim does not count as an ethnicity, nor does being a Christian, or for that matter a fascist or a Communist.
BTW, that quote was from the a Jewish author.
See it here:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
BTW, Yagoda is listed as an ethnic Russian for nationality purposes.
Are you saying that Russian Jews are not Russians?
What about Moslem Russians? Do they lose their ethnicity too?
Really you are a racist lying scumbag Tal.
Still, it is only to be expected from a Kremlin (and communist) apologist such as yourself.
Michael Tal
“If Abkhazians have no right to call Abkhazia their own home, then what land on Earth can they call “home”? We, Jews, got ourselves a homeland in Palestine, even though we hadn’t lived there much for more than 19 centuries. We need to have a home, and independent home. Abkhazians do too. So, what land can you give them? Australia? Chile? Ivory Coast? Why can’t they have their own country right where they have lived for millennia: in Abkhazia?”
Let the Abkhazia demonstrate and prove just as Jewish have that they are the native, indegenious inhabitans of abkhzia and were there before Georgians and we will let them have the land . Jewish people are native, indegenous people of the land of Jerusalem and Israel. Apsu Abkhazians are not the native, indegenous people of Abkhazia.
what is an independent home? are you saying that jews don’t belong in israel and shoulud look for land somewhere else?
What I am saying is that we, Jews, need an independent home, and Palestine was the place for us to return to and to make our home again after 1900 years of exile, because that’s where we originally came from. Especially after the Holocaust.
Similarly, Abkhazians need a home too, and Abkhazia seems like the best place for Abkahzians, doesn’t it?
you claim you’re jewish yet you don’t think that Jewish people deserve a home in Israel.
Secondly what about more than 250,000 georgian abkhazians you don’t think they deserve to go back to their home to which they have every right? who said abaza and apsu have no right to live in abkahzia? nobody arguing against that, but all georgian refugees, whey are they not allowed to return? your hypocrisy has no limits, and not to mention you can’t even argue , all you do is contradict yourself.
how many times do i have to tell you that Georgians are native, indigenous inhabitans of abkhazia? go learn history before making ignorant comments.
Again, you have a point, but you are missing one: the fact remains that while I also do not believe in the idea that “Da Zionitz stoll ZHE ARAB’S LAND!!!!” that is spread around by some of the less literate on the internet, the fact remains that the Arabs DID live there in considerable amounts, and much of the legitimacy of any nation must come from how it deals with minorities.
And while I freely admit that our deep friend Shevvey was no angel and many there were loyal to him, the fact remains that the Abkhazian government flunked that test long ago.
i think best is to ignore him, he lies about being jewishi, he’s just your regular ultra nationalist russian chauvenist, plain and simpile.
Andrew wrote:
> Are you saying that Russian Jews are not Russians?
What I am saying is that an ETHNIC JEW is not an ETHNIC RUSSIAN.
On September 15, 2009, you wrote an article claiming that ETHNIC JEWS are responsible for Stalin’s crimes. Among the Jews that you purposefully listed was Genrikh Yagoda and you quoted:
> “Genrikh Yagoda, the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century…”
So, you know very well that Yagoda was a an ethnic Jew.
But today you wrote:
> NKVD was headed by the ethnic Russians Yhezov and Yagoda.
Given that at least since September 15, 2009, you have known that Yagoda was an ETHNIC JEW, you latest claim that he was an ETHNIC RUSSIAN is an intentional lie.
Do you want to continue to try to weasel out of this one?
No Michael, I posted an articel, by an actual Jewish writer, that stated many RUSSIAN JEWS were responsible for the horrific crimes of the Bolshevik revolution and Soviet Russian imperialism.
As I recall you were stating that Russian Jews had always been victims and were blaming the Soviet crimes entirely on ethnic minorities such as Georgians.
BTW, Yagoda was a Russian ultra nationalist, as shown by his treatment of non Russian ethnic minorities in the USSR.
Somewhat similar to Zhirinovsky I guess.
He is Jewish too, but is a Russian and Pan-Slavic ultranationalist.
Andrew, you wrote an article claiming that Jews were responsible for Stalin’s crimes. To prove your point, you listed Yagoda as one of these Jews and cited an article that says that Yagoda was Jewish. Nowe you claim htat he is an ethnic Russian.
> It is a religion Michael, not an ethnicity.
Yagoda was a religious Jew?! he was a Communists. All Communists are godless atheists. Everybody knows that.
Yagoda was not Jewish by religion. He was Jewish by ethnicity.
> BTW, Yagoda is listed as an ethnic Russian for nationality purposes.
Really? Where exactly Yagoda is listed as an ethnic Russian?
“What I am saying is that an ETHNIC JEW is not an ETHNIC RUSSIAN.”
Depends: what about “halfbreeds” or “interracial” children?
Andrew, and you keep on lying.
> BTW, Yagoda was a Russian ultra nationalist, as shown by his treatment of non Russian ethnic minorities in the USSR.
Really? Are you saying that Yagoda’s actions were motivated by “Russian ultra nationalissm” and not by Communist zeal?
Are you saying that among his victims, ethnic Russians were few and that he targeted “non Russian ethnic minorities” much more than he targeted ethnic Russians?
Unless this is another lie, please provide documentation.
Certainly huge numbers of Russians were also victims of his crimes, but Communist repression and supression of “anti revolutionary activities” were severely heavy on ethnic minorities such as the Ukrainians, Caucasians etc.
After all, most senior communists were also Great Russian chauvanists, a fact that concerned Lenin greatly before his death, and a problem that he was unable to resolve which led to disastrous results for many ethnic minorities in Communist Russia.
Stop demagoguery, Andrew. Give a straight answer to my question:
——————–
Are you saying that among his victims, ethnic Russians were few and that he targeted “non Russian ethnic minorities” much more than he targeted ethnic Russians?
Unless this is another lie, please provide documentation.
————————-
Where is the documentation supporting your claim that “Yagoda was a Russian ultra nationalist”?
> Communist repression and supression of “anti revolutionary activities”…
First of all, let’s talk not about Communists in general, but about Yagoda and his actions. And second, if he indeed supressed “anti revolutionary activities” and killed people for political reasons, regardless of their ethnicities, why did you lie that his killings were motivated by his “Russian ultra nationalism”?
> Certainly huge numbers of Russians were also victims of his crimes
Then why did you say that he was “a Russian ultra nationalist”?
And let me repeat 1 more question:
> BTW, Yagoda is listed as an ethnic Russian for nationality purposes.
Really? Where exactly is Yagoda listed as an ethnic Russian?
“Alexander Orlov, also Jewish by birth, attributed the following conversation to Yagoda during his last days at the Lubyanka prison before his execution. When asked by his interrogator if he believed in God, Yagoda replied, “From Stalin I deserved nothing but gratitude for my faithful service; from God I deserved the most severe punishment for having violated his commandments thousands of times. Now look where I am and judge for yourself: is there a God, or not…”[8]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genrikh_Yagoda
BTW, I wrote an article showing that Russian Jews were JUST AS responsible for communist crimes as others when you falsely described them as only victims. This was after you blamed all communist crimes on the Georgians.
How does that prove that Yagoda was an ethnic Russian or that he was a “a Russian ultra nationalist”?
> I did not say that Russia had OFFICIALLY or DEJURE annexed SO or Abk. … the dominant role it plays in handing the two breakaway nations has effectively made them Russian surrogates in the region.
OK. But Kate was claiming that Russia had annexed them and that Russia is much worse than USA.
Certainly, USA’s aggressions have made a huge number of “surrogates” that have been forced to abide by USA’s orders, including Iraq, Afghanistan and almost all of Latin America.
In any case, Turtler:
Since Andrew, has brought up Yagoda trying to prove that most of the time, Stalin’s Cheka/GPU/NKVD were governed by ethnic Russians, let me list for you the chronology of the leaders and their ethnicities/nationalities from 1918 to 1953:
Felix Dzierzinski – 1917 – 1918 and 1918 – 1926 – Pole
Yakov Peters – 1918 – Latvian
Wiaczesław Mężyński – 1926 – 1934 – Pole
Genrikh Yagoda (1934-1936) – Jew
Nikolai Yezhov (1936-1938) – Russian
Lavrentiy Beria (1938-1953) – Georgian
Thus, the ethnic composition is:
2 Poles: 17 years total
1 Georgian: 15 years
1 Jew: 2 years
1 Russian: 2 years
1 Latvian: 2 months
Thus, there was only 1 Russian out of 6 men total, and this ethnic Russian ruled Cheka/GPU/NKVD for 2 out of 35 years. That’s less than 6% of the time. Given that ethnic Russians made up about 55-60% of the Soviet population in those times– that’s a gross under-representation of ethnic Russians. Ten times less than the average!
This proves my original point:
“However, per capita, Russians were less represented in the Soviet and Cheka/GPU/NKVD leadership than Poles, Gerogians, Jews, Latvians and other ethncities”.
Some figures on national representations in the Cheka and its successors.
According to figures provided by the Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation, there was a total of 49,991 Cheka operatives as of 1 October 1921: 38,648 Russians, 4,564 Jews, 1,770 Latvians, 1,559 Ukrainians, 886 Poles, 315 Germans, 186 Lithuanians, 152 Estonians, 102 Armenians, and 1,808 from other ethnic groups. [50] The Cheka’s Board of thirteen functionaries was composed of three Russians (Kedrov, Ksenofontov, and Mantsev), three Jews (Messing, Unszlicht, and Yagoda), two Latvians (Latsis and Peters), two Poles (Dzerzhinsky and Menzhinsky), one Ukrainian (Bokiy), one Belarusian (Medved), and one Armenian (Avanesov). [50]
The ethnic breakdown for mid-level and upper-level officials of the OGPU leadership (the Cheka’s successor agency in the 1920s) for 15 November 1923 consists of 54 Russians, 15 Jews, 12 Latvians, 10 Poles, and 4 others. [50]
Of the 2,402 functionaries in the central apparatus of the OGPU as of 1 May 1924, there were 204 Jews, 1,670 Russians, 208 Latvians, 90 Poles, 80 Belarusians, and 80 Ukrainians, with functionaries from other ethnic groups the remaining 3.5%. [50]
Yagoda’s secret police oversaw the execution of both Zinoviev and Kamenev, but fell victim to Stalin’s next round of purges. In September 1936, Yagoda was replaced by Nikolai Yezhov, not of Jewish descent [51] , until Yezhov was also arrested and executed in March 1937, becoming replaced by Lavrentiy Beria, an ethnic Georgian [52] like Josef Stalin. No other Jew besides Yagoda held the highest position within the bureaucracy of Soviet state security organizations. Under Yezhov, the number of Jews fell precipitously (to just 6 people) while the number of ethnic Russians among the leadership of the NKVD secret police rose to 102 people (67%) – and the purges, at Stalin’s instigation [53] [54] , then entered their bloodiest period (1937-1938) (see Great Purge).
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Judeo-Bolshevism
So by the great purge Russians were 67% of the staff of the NKVD, over represented as a % of total population.
Hmmm, looks like Russians were pretty heavily represented to me Mr Tal.
> The Cheka’s Board of thirteen functionaries was composed of three Russians (Kedrov, Ksenofontov, and Mantsev), three Jews (Messing, Unszlicht, and Yagoda), two Latvians (Latsis and Peters), two Poles (Dzerzhinsky and Menzhinsky), one Ukrainian (Bokiy), one Belarusian (Medved), and one Armenian (Avanesov). [50]
So, even though there were 60% of the population, Rusisans were represented by 3 out of 13 top leaders?
> Hmmm, looks like Russians were pretty heavily represented to me Mr Tal.
LOL.
As usual Mr Tal has a failure to read (you DO know how to read don’t you Kapo?)
“The ethnic breakdown for mid-level and upper-level officials of the OGPU leadership (the Cheka’s successor agency in the 1920s) for 15 November 1923 consists of 54 Russians, 15 Jews, 12 Latvians, 10 Poles, and 4 others. [50]”
and
“Under Yezhov, the number of Jews fell precipitously (to just 6 people) while the number of ethnic Russians among the leadership of the NKVD secret police rose to 102 people (67%) ”
So, like I said, Russians dominated the Cheka, OGPU, NKVD, and lated the KGB & GRU.
LOL
you think what happened to Kosovo is unfair so you argue that Russia punished Goergia because of what happened in Kosovo???
I would appreciate the sources, because I might like to take a look at them (seriously, the makeup of the “organs” at any given time is not exactly easy to trace, and if you have a good source, I would greatly appreciate it).
But again, the blindside of taking these statistics as complete guides for responsibility is that it fails to take into account the “grunts”, the low-level Commissars or party propagandists who largely ran the Soviet state.
Hitler and his cabinet didn’t go around shooting each “racial degenerate” personally.
Andrew, given that your ultimate authority – V. Abaev – agrees that Georgia committed 2 genocides against Ossetians (in 1920 and in 1989-91) and was ruled by a fascist dictator Gamsakhurdia, who was worse than Hitler and Saddam, why shouldn’t Russia recognise the independence of S. Ossetia?
Because it is wrong to violate the territorial integrity of a country, like Georgia?
But it was Georgia that first violated the territorial integrity of Russia back in 1991. And it was the only country in the entire World to do so:
———————————-http://www.islamamerica.org/ArticleLibrary/tabid/55/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4/Roots-of-Chechen-Resistance.aspx
Roots of Chechen Resistance
Konstantin Gamsakhurdia
Тoday many Chechens remember with gratification that Sviad Gamsakhurdia, post-Soviet Georgia’s first freely elected president, was the only chief of state to officially recognize Chechnya’s independence in 1991.
———————————–
If Georgia recognized the independence of Chechnya, why shouldn’t Russia recognize the independence of S. Ossetia?
When did I say he was my “ultimate authority”?
He did also state that South Ossetia should not become separate from Georgia, or did you forget that Mr. Tal?
As for Gamsakhurdia being worse than Hitler & Saddam, LOL.
He was nowhere near as bad as any Russian leader of the 20th century, including Putin.
Georgian recognition of Chechnya was in response to a real genocide by Russia. Not one that was dreamt up by Russian retards like yourself.
Stop being such a Kapo.
Andrew,
I do so much enjoy your revealing posts that lead to many articles. You clarify the “Disinformatsia” of the Rosiyski Chauvinist Scumlords that piss all over the internet. It is amazing that such posters think that they can carry off these lies. Rooshans have committed big crimes, so the big lies. It all falls apart.
Being that eventually anybody whom would accept such “facts”, would be very angered to find out that they were fooled, even temporarily. This contemptuous misrepresentation of facts by Rooshans causes the victim to rally against the liars with a vengeance. Thank you Andrew and also Robert, Penny and others for spending this time on LR to the education of readers like myself.
Considering the Chechens did not declare independance until 1993, recognising their independance in 1991 would be a neat trick indeed.
And the recognition is no longer in effect, it seems it was rescinded by Sheverdnadze.
because Chechnians are the majority of Chechen land, they are culturally and historically separated from Russia, Russia colonized Chechnya in alte 18th century and ever since than Chechens wanted to ahve their independence. If you held a reforendum in Chechnya people would vote for independence. Samachablo (so called S. Ossetia) on the other hand is historical Georgian land, majority of the population there were Georgians until they were ethnically cleansed out by Russia. If reforendum was conducted in Ossetia majority would not vote for independence.
Another fact, there are more Ossetians living Outside of Ossetia in Georgia than in S. Ossetia.
“agrees that Georgia committed 2 genocides against Ossetians (in 1920 and in 1989-91) ”
1989-91 you have (though not without the point that the SO weren’t angels either). 1920 I haven’t seen any solid data for, and in general it appears that the SO seem to have started the revolt first, and in any event seem to have gotten the worst of it from not only the SO but also the intervening Soviets. Still, any data would be appreciated.
“and was ruled by a fascist dictator Gamsakhurdia”
Dictator I agree with, but Fascist I don’t buy, in large part because Gams was far more socially Conservative than the relatively Socialist Nazis and Fascisti. If anything, he is more like your garden variety center-right despot like Horthy or Antonescu or the various bastidos we supported during the Cold War (think Somozoa and Pinochet).
” who was worse than Hitler and Saddam”
Ok, you had BETTER have some money, because you owe me a new keyboard. And if you are actually saying that SERIOUSLY, I have no choice but to contact the FSB on the issue.
Saddam’s Al-Anfal alone probably was far more destructive than the entirety of the Georgian-separatist bloodbaths, and this is before we get into the forced displacement of the Marsh Arabs, his charming behavior in Kuwait and Khafji, and his support of terrorists.
And as for Hitler… Are you talking about THE Hitler? Adolph Hitler, born in Austria, became Fuhrer in 1933? Carved out an empire stretching from the Channel to the Volga, from the Arctic Circle to Southern Libya? Killed tens of millions of people? THAT Hitler?
” why shouldn’t Russia recognise the independence of S. Ossetia?”
Oh, from the Realpolitik standpoint there aren’t many good reasons, save for stepping close to WWIII again when Russia is at an all time low in its strength.
“Because it is wrong to violate the territorial integrity of a country, like Georgia?”
Not necessarily, but when you stir up a fight and go looking for an excuse, than yes.
“But it was Georgia that first violated the territorial integrity of Russia back in 1991. And it was the only country in the entire World to do so”
Unless you are talking about the small threeway bloodbath for Sochi in the 20′s, I don’t see what you are talking about. Particularly since the Chechen recognition was pulled like a rug as soon as Gams was out of office.
“The Ossetians are originally descendants of the Alans, a Sarmatian tribe. They became Christians during the early Middle Ages, under the Byzantine, Georgian and Russian influences. Under Mongol rule, they were pushed out of their medieval homeland south of the Don River in present-day Russia and part migrated towards and over the Caucasus mountains (into the kingdom of Georgia and into the lands of present-day North Ossetia-Alania),[15] where they formed three distinct territorial entities. Digor in the west came under the influence of the neighboring Kabard people, who introduced Islam. Kudar in the south became what is now South Ossetia, part of the historical Georgian principality of Samachablo[16] where Ossetians found refuge from Mongol invaders. Iron in the north became what is now North Ossetia, under Russian rule from 1767″
RUHM UND EHRE DER ROTEN ARMEE
Your blog mix truth about Putin and Yeltsin,the murderous Soviet Union with a great hatred and even hate to the russian people.
Every culture has its good and evil points,you are like an antisemithe or islamophobe or something also.You seem like a paranoid,no different from antisemiths.
I agree with some of your “10 russophile myths”also,Putin and KGB sucks.
And you blame Russia for everything,you don’t understand or know that Soviet Union,WAS NOT RUSSIA.Specially after WWII,Stalin rusificated Soviet Union.And Tadiykistan was the samae in CCCP that Russia.
Among the recipients of the Nobel Prize 99% of Jews.
Russian invented and presented America, helicopter (Sikorsky)
TV-Zworykin.
without the Russian people in America would be a poor country
Thank you Kim, for your wonderful Website, used by so many of us Westerners for a glimpse of the true Russia.
I’d just note that all your emails are in repeats of four-at-a-time! It hugely lengthens the time & effort needed to get through it all; and surely you realize you readers just need one copy of each email!
Ok, myths.
10. “Russians voted for him” 8. “Never once had a contested election”
Reading through this asinine list, a contradiction slaps me in the face from the very beginning, like a hyper-active, grinning, delinquent child.
9. No, oil is a bad thing for Russia because all the oil companies are owned by government officials who stuff all the revenue in offshore banks and do fuck all for improving the nation.
7. First of all, Russia has never had a “King”. Only Princes, Tsars, Emperors, General Secretaries, and Presidents. Second, capitalist tendencies started under Catherine the Great, who granted permission for anyone to engage in free trade and business back in the 1780s. Catherine II, being a German princess, happened to be both a “King”, as you so marvellously put it, and a raging capitalist. Not to mention that capitalism was starting to pick up really well in the 1880s-90s, were it not for a lazy Tsar. If it were not for healthy capitalism, the TranSib railway would not exist. Also, are you telling me that no monarchy is able to have a capitalist-based economy?
6. The Nobel Prize was established in 1895. Russia’s golden age of literature (and other things) was already ending by then, having contributed enormously to the world community in every form. Back in the mid 19th century, the US, was indeed, as you said, a land of hillbilly morons. And not to mention the fact that the Nobel Prize is obviously the only significant merit in existence
5.. If you count all the homicides that have occurred in a country from its very founding, you will find this applies to any country. Even if you don’t count the homicides, the same applies to a shitload of nations. Your point does not prove anything.
4. Point taken, but the same applies to any other G-8 nation. I don’t see why it’s a “myth” though. You really messed up on the point of “Myth” and “reality” here.
3. Yet how strange, Russia has provided itself with these very means, with the help of its land mass for many centuries! Guess why? because it’s not the land mass, it’s the resources that count. Mongolia’s pretty big too.
2. Russians’ refusal to confront their government has been detrimental, I agree, but considering their history, it’s to be expected. We already tried overthrowing the government once, the result of which was a long process, culminating in the establishment of this website. However, Russian history is regardless riddled with very threatening uprisings, such as the one in 1773-5.
As for cowardice (and more on overthrowing governments), I suggest you read up on the period of Russian History from 1605-1613, known as the time of troubles.
Also, refusing to oppose one’s own government is often seen as a positive quality. In light of this, I’d like to remind you that the Russian government has been overthrown more times than the English/British government. There has only been one execution of a monarch in England, compared to Russia’s whole royal family in 1917, and again, the events in the time of troubles.
1. First of all Russia in any form has existed for only 16 centuries, so thousands of years is a gross exaggeration. Moreover, Russia has been great not once, but many times over the course of its history. The historical peaks in greatness are as follows:
Kievan Rus: start of 12th century.
First half of Ivan IV’s reign (1547)
Pretty much all of the 18th century.
USSR.
> America, famous as a land of hillbilly morons, has far more Nobel prizes for science and literature than Russia.
It is ridiculous to compare achievements in science and especially in literature based on the number of Nobel prize especially taking into account that even Leo Tolstoy who is regarded over the world as the greatest writer ever and Dmitry Mendeleev evidently one of the greatest chemist ever failed to obtaing this prize. As to science there are at least several reason considerably decreasing the number of Russians NPs. 1. Russians and later Soviet just didn’t propose and promote their candiates for NP. In Soviet times the NP was considered as a Western product and official and sicentists didn’t care a lot to obtain it. 2. Secrecy reasons. Many Russian achievements and their authoris was highly classified. E.g. Korolev, the creator of the Soviet space program had chances to get his NP yet his name and contribution was discovered after his death. 3. Isolation. Many Russian/Soviet achievements just wasn’t known in the West due to isolation of the Russian scientific and technological communit from the West. E.g. it is know fact that the idea of the magnetic resonance imaging was first patented in the SU by V. Ivanov as early as in 1960s yet it wasn’t known in the West and the NP for this discovery was shared by others. 4. Traditional Sweden russophoby and block-thinking. At least I see no other serious reasons why the NP was not given to such evident candidates as Tolstoy and Mendeleev.
The expample with literature is even more ridiculous. This prize so often missed really great authors and went to mediocre writers due to political, nationalistic and other unrelated reasons that the amount of NP among writers of a country gives no information of the significance of its literature. Indeed do you really think that the Pearl S. Buck really deserved the NP more than Tolstoy? Among other great Russian/Soviet authors missed by the NP were Gorki, Akhmatova, Mayakovsky, Bulgakov, Leonov, Paustovsky, Simonov, Platonov, Kuprin, Voznesensky, Akhmadulina etc.etc. The fact that not all of these really great names are well known in the West just only emphasizes the realty that the NP is mostly a prize for the Western world and can not be a basis for Russia/USA comparisons.
> REALITY: America, famous as a land of hillbilly morons, has far more Nobel prizes for science and literature than Russia.
It is not correct to evaluate the importance of a country in science or literature based on the amount of Nobel prizes especially taking into account that even such giants in literature and science as Tolstoy and Mendeleev were missed by this prize. As to science there several reasons why Russians got NP
1. Russians and then Soviets just did not propose (not to mention promote) their candidates for NPs. Evidently that a country that does not promote its candidates has week chances to win this international competition.
2. Isolation. Soviet science was in many respects isolated from the world scientific process and community and many of its achievements were not just known in the West. It is a known fact that Vladislav Ivanov patented for Magnetic Resonance Imaging much earlier than Western scientists yet his discovery was unnoticed in the West and the NP for this discovery missed him.
3. Secrecy. Many Soviet achievements and their creators were highly classified. Korolev, the leading Russian rocket designer was an evident candidate for the NP. Yet even his name was declassified after his death.
4. Russophoby. At least I see no other reasons why such great scientists as Mendeleev or Bogolyubov didn’t get their NPs.
(By the way the situation with international prizes in maths for the Russians was much better. E.g. Russians get Fields medals (the most prestigious international award in maths) quite often (9 Russian/Soviet Field medals vs 1 German or 0 Italian) due to the fact that some factors mentioned above (like isolation or secrecy) less concerns mathematics than other natural sciences).
As to literature the number of great writers worldwide missed by this prize is so notoriously big and NP in literature is so sadly known for its incapability to impartially judge the world literature process that It is even more ridiculous to evaluate the importance of a national literature by the number of NPs. The fact that American Pearl .S. Buck (did you ever hear of her?) got the prize and Tolstoy (who considered the greatest writer ever by many even in the West) did not compromises this prize for eternity. There are a lot of great Russian writers fully deserving any awards by missed by the NP : Tolstoy, Gorki, Mayakovsky, Tsvetaeva, Esenin, Boulgakov, Platonov, Paustovsky, Leonov, Simonov, Akhmadulina, Voznesensky etc. The fact that not all of these names are well known in the West only emphasizes the fact that the NP is the prize for the Western world and as such say nothing about not-Western cultures.
Well my posts have disappeared as I predicted. It is funny indeed how Americans are whining about the freedom of words in other countries. Yet I can’t imagine such repressive policy to dissidents in Russian on-line media as American media – from little blogs like to Washingtong Post – apply. Opinions backed by strong arguments without any insults but disagreeing with views of an author or the editor have week chances to be published. Well I alwasy knew Americans are just pettish and hypocritical pussies.
Well my posts have disappeared as I predicted. It is funny indeed how Americans are whining about the freedom of speech in other countries. Yet I can’t imagine such repressive policy to dissidents in Russian on-line media as American media – from little blogs like to Washingtong Post – apply. Opinions backed by strong arguments without any insults but disagreeing with views of an author or the editor have week chances to be published. Well I always knew Americans are just pettish and hypocritical pussies.